The WP Minute+

Mark: Mark Szymanski,
back on the WP Minute.

Matt Medeiros.

This is always a pleasure, man.

I feel like I'm saying that all the time.

Matt: MJS in the room, there's
always some excitement, right?

When this guy shows up, you know
there's some turmoil, at least in

his head, that we're gonna, that
we're gonna try to figure out.

Uh, big topic is something that
sort of hit the Twitter sphere.

I did a video on it.

Uh, let me pull up the old screen.

I said, is this the future?

Of WordPress and it's custom.

Oh, let me pull up Daniel's tweet.

That's what I meant to do.

Pull up Daniel's tweet.

Is this the future of WordPress?

This is, um, something that the wordpress.

com showed off the wordpress.

com team showed off.

It's called create content model.

I demoed it.

I showed it on the channel and I
was like, I can get behind this

custom fields, custom post types
in the block editor debatable.

If that's the canvas we need to use.

And I was like.

This is great for a person like me.

Doesn't want to do like
heavy development stuff.

Doesn't want a big page builder around it.

I was like, I can get behind
this simplicity of custom

fields and dynamic data.

Um, before we start dissecting like the
controversy around this, what was your

original reaction when you saw the way
it worked as somebody who's heavily,

you know, invested in let's say Bricks
and also a former Elementor user?

Mark: Um, I mean, I think,
I think it was Kevin.

There was a lot of engagement on this and
we'll get into all that sort of thing.

But like on the surface, when I saw
it, I think it was yesterday, right?

Or it was very, very recently.

Um, I want WordPress to succeed.

I want it to continue to progress.

And we talk about this stuff all the time.

I don't use Gutenberg
as much as other people.

Like I'm, I'm in the bricks world,
still page builder world and everything.

So I'm like not super tied to the
block editor and don't use it too much.

Again, as much as other people do
with the block systems and everything.

But I saw this and I was like,
this is amazing because I really

appreciate like, you know, it's not
the core team, I guess it's wordpress.

com, but the people that are like
changing the aspects of like actual,

what we would kind of call core
WordPress really appreciate this.

It seemed awesome.

I will say that my initial
reaction, I think, again, I replied

to Twitter, uh, on, uh, on X,
I think I replied to Kevin's.

Repost of it or something.

I was like, eh, I mean, this is amazing
that we're moving forward on this.

I love that.

I really love that.

It's a little bit of a, the UX, right?

Like I watched your video of it.

I watched, um, I think it
was Brian cords, right?

In this video, uh, in the tweet,
like kind of go through it.

I'm not like completely sold on the way
that it was implemented, but I totally get

that it was like the first crack at it.

I'm not, I'm not throwing
any casting any stones there.

So at a hundred percent,
uh, wanted to see it evolve.

Um, so that was kind of
like my overall take on it.

Really love the direction and the concept.

The UI and UX of it could
be a little different.

We could have a separate discussion about
that, but that has kind of slightly gone

by the wayside, so to speak, with some of
the new things that have come out today.

So, but I mean, obviously
you made the video on it, but

what were your thoughts too?

Matt: I mean, this sort of goes back
to why, um, I don't get as animated

about like, uh, Gutenberg or the
site editor or like the whole concept

of where we're headed, because I do
think it's for, um, It's this life,

lifelong debate that we've always had.

Like, that, that kind of interface,
as challenging as it can be for

somebody who is used to Elementor,
Bricks, or just a power developer, and

you look at it and you're like, ah,
this doesn't have all the features.

This doesn't have all the things I need.

I don't mind it as an end user because
for the most part, it's giving me

80 to 85 percent of what I need to
make a website with a given theme.

Right?

I'm not selling websites anymore.

I'm not consulting on websites anymore.

And if I were, I wouldn't use,
let's say 2024, um, and, uh,

sort of base site editor tools
that a core WordPress gives me.

But as an enthusiast, I'm like, I like it.

I like what I got here.

I'm not overly, like, annoyed by it.

And when I saw this, this was like
the closest thing that said simplicity

plus power at the same time.

Build.

Like design what my custom post type
is going to look like, and then assign

these little blocks as my dynamic fields.

And I was like, hell yeah, this is
great from the enthusiast, maybe even

power level user that I am these days.

And I liked it, uh, and I, but I can also
understand that it's not for everybody,

but you know, that's the biggest
challenge with WordPress is it's like,

it's trying to be for everybody, but
also not for everybody at the same time.

Um, from the entry level point,
I was like, yep, I'm, I'm sold.

Uh, I like it.

And I.

Originally, we were going back
and forth in, uh, our Slack DMs.

And originally, like when you were
saying, Hey, this thing isn't coming

to, uh, this is, you know, this
is not going to come to WordPress.

And my initial reaction to that was,
well, too late, it's already out there.

And the concept is out there.

And in this world of open source, I'm
thinking positively going, well, the

concepts out there now, even if wordpress.

com said, you know what?

We're not going to build this anymore.

I was like, well, the concepts
out there, people are seeing it.

They're experiencing,
they're reacting to it.

It's a very popular video on my channel.

Uh, uh, Daniel's tweet has 21,
000 views, a lot of engagement.

It made it sound like
things were, were coming.

Um, but we started to get some information
behind the scenes that it's not coming.

And I said something like.

But the, the, it's out there now.

Like this, this is an influential thing.

Look how excited people
are for this concept.

How do we not unsee this?

You know?

And if we can't unsee it, that's
weird because if a lot of people

are liking it, why wouldn't we
use this or some iteration of it?

Right.

And that might be a challenging part.

Yeah.

Daniel's tweet sort of promoting this.

It, it, It has caused some confusion
for sure, because you see it, you're

amped up, I'm amped up, and then sort
of a rug pull at the end of the day.

That's a

Mark: good way to put it.

Um, yeah, so I want to address one
thing, and then we can dive into that.

The, the one thing I would say is
that I still don't have clarity, maybe

some people do, on what actually,
because this is part of my tweet in

there, like, the second point when I
was talking about like the UX, like,

I and you and a lot of people that
watch like our content and are in this

all the time, we are absolutely one
audience, this is not a new conversation.

We're one audience.

If even if we don't like, even the
people that don't like, like the

Gutenberg editor, for instance,
and that whole experience, most of

them are in the, in the, the weeds
of WordPress to a certain degree.

Even if they use a page builder,
they could figure it out if

they really wanted to, right.

But there's this other, this other,
these other, uh, you know, this other

sect of users that are like DIYers
that we talk about a lot, right.

I actually want the information
and I don't know if it's possible,

like to if like, when we say, Hey.

You know, this is a good, simple
way, but gives them power.

Like would other people
understand like how to use it?

Like I, maybe I just don't know enough
about UX, like, you know, the, the, the

methodology and of, of like good UX.

Cause I think, I feel like I do, but
I look at it and I'm just like, I'm

confused, but I would love to see
like, you know, 50 DIY wires at like

a word camp or something, try to
figure this out and like know if they

were, if they were going to do it,
that it's a separate conversation.

Um, but that would be my, my thought
process going back to it, because I

don't know if we can speculate that.

A lay person can figure these things out.

Like, cause I don't, I don't know.

That's just a separate thing.

Going back to it, I think
that, but you should also

Matt: preface it with this was built
in like two weeks as like a prototype.

Uh, it certainly was far from
like a polished, it was far from a

Mark: polished product for sure.

100%.

Um, I know what I know would
have, I don't, I don't even know

how to speak on this though.

Cause like I'm saying like, I
know it would have continued to

evolve or will continue to evolve.

But.

Let's, let's table that and
let's come back to the, to

what we're talking about here.

Cause we don't actually know
technically right now the future.

There's a lot of different
information out there.

Uh, at the top of this, what
happened was like, you know, Daniel

who is correct me on his role.

See the head of wordpress.

com?

Matt: Yeah.

Mark: Okay.

So like there's wordpress.

com, wordpress.

org.

And I've heard in the past that
sometimes things go, you would

think they flow the other way from.

org to.

com, but actually it's the other way.

Sometimes I think Brian
cords has mentioned that.

I think he did.

He mentioned that in your most recent
one, the book of knowledge video.

I feel like I've heard it in there,
but so, so that's interesting, right?

It's going from the commercialized thing
down to the, uh, you know, the open

source platform for everybody to use.

That's awesome.

I love seeing that.

Um, and in this case, like
it's a really cool idea.

That they have tried to do this.

And again, everyone was, I mean,
this is the most engagement I've seen

on a, on a feature in, in a while.

I like, it was unbelievable.

Like, cause it, cause it,
this is, this is like.

You know, you know, Maddie Eastwood,
me and Brendan O'Connell used to have,

we still do, but it's a little on high
as this bridge builders concept, right?

Of like bringing people together.

This is one of those concepts that
does exactly that because you have

like power users, you have lay people.

And again, I'm not, no disrespect when
I say these types of things, but like

I'm saying, you have different types of
audiences and they can all come together

and they can be like, Hey, you know what?

Gutenberg is not my favorite thing,
but this is awesome that they're

actually putting this in there,
regardless of what you think of the

implementation, the UX and all that.

It's awesome that it's happening.

And that was kind of in that camp.

So then it, I mean, it goes
wildfire, like it's on X.

We looked at the stats, right?

It's got like 20, 000 views.

It's got almost 50 reposts, ton
of likes and everything like that.

Um, I think Brian, you
yourself made a video.

I don't know if Brian made,
well, he was in a live stream.

I think he's doing a live stream today.

Exactly.

I'm interested to see that.

Um, and then.

It, I mean, it, it, it, it went, if you're
in all these different circles, I know

you're not a big Facebook guy, right?

But if you're in all the different
circles, like it's in every Facebook

group, it's in every private community.

Like it was that big of a thing.

People were sharing it,
like, Wildfire, like I said.

And it's just funny now, because now
we've gotten some information and

they're like, you know what, that
actually is kind of more of just like

a prototype, feel it out type thing.

We have no plans whatsoever
to actually bring this into.

com or doc or, or.

org.

And.

Again, there's data views and I'm not,
like, super educated on that whole

situation yet, but it's just a very
interesting way because, again, we

love the thing, it's gotten a lot of
attention, but then we get that, that

kind of news there that it's not, there's
no real plans or anything like that.

It almost, not only it's like, not only
it's like we're not sure where to go,

it's like, we didn't even, like, we
didn't even really want it to go anywhere.

But it was out there.

Last point I'll make on this, and
I'll kick it back over to you,

is all of that is well and good.

You guys, like, do whatever you want.

All I'm saying is, when you have a
situation like we do in WordPress,

where we definitely have some kind
of like factions going on here, and

you put something out like this, and
again, I want to preface, I don't

think anybody did anything intentional.

There's no malintent.

I'm not, I'm not, I'm
just, I'm just observing.

You can't even lead like even
unintentionally leading people on

is going to end up backfiring in
the language and the tweets in the

github Repo and everything like that.

It makes it seem like this is next like
like it's it's they're asking questions

Like is this the future wordpress.

com?

Reposts it and like with eyeballs
like oh look what's coming like you

can't do that if you didn't have plans
That is just gonna piss people off

when they were completely with you.

It's just mind numbing that this was
a decision that was kind of made.

Again, I don't think it was intentional.

I'm just saying, like, I feel like this
is, these types of weird, like, like,

slight missteps, maybe we could call
them, are like, just, this is, this is

the stuff that's like, how does this,
like, what, what, what happened here?

Israel, I'm just looking for answers.

Maybe you have some answers.

Matt, you tell me.

Matt: Yeah, I mean, um, Few things.

So, uh, Daniel Bach,
Uber, who heads wordpress.

com now, uh, is one of the most, uh, you
know, intelligent WordPress developers

I've ever known years and years and years
ago when I was way ahead of my skis on a

project that I was working on my agency, I
knew him from his early days in WordPress

and he was the first developer that I
worked with where I was like, I need help.

I have no idea how to fix
this client's website.

Uh, just random, like we
built some custom thing.

This is like my early days and he
was like, I can fix it for you.

It's 300 an hour.

And I was at the time I was like, Oh my
God, I don't even make that much money.

And, but if you know the
answer, I'm going to pay you.

And I said, yes.

And he fixed it in like 15 minutes.

He's like, you don't have
to pay me the whole thing.

And I was like, no, I'm going to
pay you the whole thing because

you fixed this problem for me.

A super intelligent guy.

Um, you know, kudos to him for
rising in the ranks of, uh, in the

WordPress world as head of wordpress.

com.

Okay.

Now, this project, like you
said, is, at least on my

channel, is doing phenomenally.

Almost 2100 views, 120 likes, and the
likes is really what I'm looking at.

120 likes.

is a pretty intense ratio.

A lot of people are liking this, right?

Usually, if I put out something that
people don't like, I get a lot of

downvotes, and they're downvoting
me because they don't like it.

They don't like the WordPress
thing that I launched.

It comes in, uh, you know, in the last,
whatever, 30 ish days or 60 ish days.

The only other one to come close to that
is when I talked about WordPress Studio.

Actually, this goes back almost,
Yeah, four months back in April,

uh, WordPress studio for local
development on Mac has 230 likes.

A lot of people like that app.

And I look at those as metrics to
say, literally, do you like this?

And I know the sentiment
of the WordPress world.

They don't like the video.

They like what they're seeing.

Um, that's the, the weird dichotomy
I'm in as a WordPress content creator.

Um,

I think the issue, uh, cause originally
when I saw, I was, had a super busy

morning, bunch of meetings, I actually
missed the MediaCore meeting, because I

had a bunch of Gravity Forms meetings.

Um, when I saw you messaging me,
and I saw a bunch of stuff online,

originally I was thinking, Oh, Mark's
gonna be upset, because he's not gonna,

he's gonna say, Why is WordPress.

com doing this?

And in my head, I didn't even make that

Mark: connection at first,
to be honest with you.

Yeah.

Like, I was just happy to see something.

I was happy, honestly.

Matt: Yeah.

In my head, I was thinking, well,
you know, this is just a splash.

And even if it's like, not them doing
it, like I, like, as I was just saying,

I thought it, it would still represent
what the future could look like.

Um, so I have no other label for
this other than, uh, Uh, Yeah, it's

a, it's a fumble publicly because
it's like I saw and I was excited.

You saw it.

You were excited.

All these other people see it.

They're excited.

Um, it is, it's a fumble.

It's an unfortunate fumble
because I thought it was leading

down the right direction.

Uh, and yeah, this one, this one stings.

This one stings, even though it was
just a little two week experiment

and we were just seeing some things.

I was just excited.

Even if it didn't end up in
that sort of exact way that we

were playing with it, because no
software does two weeks into a demo.

I was like, well, we got a direction.

It's it's going to come just when
it could be two years, three years.

I don't know, but this looks like a
direction I'm, I could get behind.

So certainly a fumble, uh, and
an unfortunate one from the.

com side of things.

Mark: Well, there's two
things that I'm seeing here.

One, if we, if we take a step back,
we kind of like on, you know, we,

we look at the situation, but we
take a different approach to it.

We could say, all right, maybe it
was like more of a situation where.

The dot com team,
incredibly talented people.

None of, none of anything I say
here is really to criticize anyone.

I'm just, I'm again, trying to observe.

We could say that they were really
just extremely excited that they put

this together in two weeks and they
just wanted to get it out there.

Daniel, Daniel puts a tweet up there
and he's like, Hey, look at this stuff.

We just did.

This is awesome.

Right.

But the problem is like.

We, I, I don't, I don't know if this
is the right way to describe this.

We are outside the realm of like playing
around at this point with WordPress.

Like people utilize this thing so heavily
and professionally, especially in a,

in an, in an area like this, right?

This is like you, if you post something
that is impactful like this, people are

going to take this to every corner of
the, of the WordPress community on the

internet and they're going to tell, Hey,
they're going to shout it from rooftops.

I mean, I literally had people not like
not necessarily DMing me, but in, in

In these different communities, like
so excited because of all the recent

stuff that has happened and all, and
all the announcements that have been

made, like etch and all this other
stuff, like, they're like, Oh man,

WordPress is like, they're taking it.

Like they're, they're,
they're understanding.

They're like, it's a race now.

Like I literally had people say that
and I'm like, this is, it's awesome.

I love it.

I love more competition, not even
competition, but I just love more

people trying to do cool stuff.

Right.

And then a day later we, we get like
the, and again, this is the second thing.

Maybe.

They didn't have plans for it.

They were just kind of like
testing the waters out and now

it's like, Oh, everybody loved it.

Okay, now we'll do it.

I haven't heard that yet, but
that could be the next thing.

But the fact that like, we're
going to, we're going to release

something like this, we're not even
going to pose it as a question.

We're going to pose it as like a
marketing, like, Hey, this is next.

And then to kind of like backpedal
a little bit, maybe fumble that

fumble it slightly like that is
just how you like completely confuse

the shit out of your user base.

And then like, how, how are we
supposed to, you know what I mean?

That's just kind of the vibe that I get.

And, and the last thing is like, coming
from com, I know like probably not a lot

of like, lay people, again, so to speak,
follow com, but I would, I would feel

like the, if you had to like guess, and
maybe I'm wrong here, my hypothesis would

be, who's gonna follow com versus org?

I feel like com is more of like, like,
you know, end users potentially, like

going to com and doing that type of thing.

I don't necessarily know.

Exactly.

I'm, I'm, I'm speculating, but if
you were gonna post something on.com,

don't you think like a lay person
would be like, potentially see that

and be excited about it as well?

So now, now you're not only confusing
the people that are actually like,

like potentially building, adding
to it and, and in, in depth with

it, but they're also confusing the
people that could just be using like

a wordpress.com install, like on, you
know, like a, you know, one of the plans.

I'm just, I, I, I don't,
I just didn't get it.

And again, it's not, I'm not trying
to criticize people, I'm just.

I think it speaks to a broader thing if
we zoom out and we don't just think about

this one thing, like this, this type of,
you know, like, Oh, we should do this

then this, then this, it's just, I just
feel like that's kind of lacking there.

And maybe that's just the, maybe
that's the, the whole crux of

open source and WordPress and all
that in general, but I don't know.

It's just kind of weird to me, especially
because it was on the commercial side too.

Now that I think about it,

so I'm really confused.

Matt: Yeah.

I mean, you know, the.

You know, go back and people listening
to this or watching this go, go and I'll

link it up in the, in the show notes.

I did a hour plus video with Brian
cords who coincidentally also, um,

uh, voiceover the, the video for
this announcement with air quotes.

Um, and we, and we talked about
a lot of the challenges with, you

know, understanding wordpress.

com and wordpress.

org.

Again, if those lines were not so
blurry, uh, Maybe if we saw something

like experimented in, in wordpress.

com, we would probably just feel,
Oh, it just stays in wordpress.

com.

So maybe we weren't so like, Oh,
this is going to come to wordpress.

Because again, that's how I saw it.

Even if somebody said,
well, why are they, why is.

com building this and not, you
know, the, the core wordpress

team or the core secondary

Mark: issue though.

Matt: Yeah.

I would say like, well, That's fine.

And, and the, and the thing
exists and now we see it and they

can contribute that code back.

We did get word.

I don't know if you want to get into
it or not, but we did get word that

that code is not going, uh, into core.

It's not built for it.

And it's, it's really, they're
just going to bypass it again.

I still struggle with that sentiment
because humans have seen the way it works.

And I mean, you can be influenced
to some degree, especially if

you had such positive reaction.

Um, what makes us a little bit.

More challenging.

Uh, and I wanted to pull up a old article
that I wrote many years ago when we were

in the, uh, there was the Calypso project.

You ever heard of that,
that code name before?

Mark: Hmm.

I I've heard of it.

Did you just, did we just
talk about this recently?

I feel, I feel like I just
saw it recently, actually.

Matt: So, uh, I think this is
it, uh, the tug of war WordPress

experience, web host, and us.

So, I have this, let me pull it up, uh,
for those who are watching, uh, and if

you're just listening, I'll link it up.

It's an old post I wrote, uh,
back in 2016, December 2016.

And the Calypso project came out,
and this was, from a 50, 000 foot

view, it was an app like experience.

Thanks for watching.

On wordpress.

com and also a local app
that you could download.

Oh wow, iPhone 7 is a
screenshot in my, in my book.

It still looks the exact same.

No, I'm just kidding.

Yeah.

Um, and here's a little
screenshot again for those.

Yeah, it does.

Uh, and those who are viewing, you
can see this little screenshot here.

It says, um, I'll just zoom into it.

The new wordpress.

com.

You can download the desktop app.

So I wrote this whole
piece, you know how I am.

I, I, I'm a futurist.

I look at it and I go, Oh, what does
this mean for the future of WordPress?

And in my opinion, I was thinking what
they'll do is build out this app that

you download to your desktop and use
natively to build your WordPress websites.

And Oh, by the way, wouldn't it be great.

So, if instead of building
your WordPress website, um,

you could, or building your
WordPress website locally, you

could then host it somewhere with
the same frictionless experience.

In other words, build your website and
your app and then send it to any web host.

And that web host would be WordPress.

com and whatever partners they might have.

I was looking at that as the,
the future of building WordPress.

I mean, we're all excited
about apps back then.

That died down.

The Calypso Project.

kind of vaporized, but now we have studio.

And what I look at, which makes
this whole thing still confusing

is Daniel put out the tweet.

Oh, if you love the content model
stuff, you're going to love wordpress.

com roadmap, which he has.

The screenshot of his tweet, and he
says, you might have also caught my

tweet yesterday about the new create
content model prototype, which allows

anyone to define the custom post types
and fields natively in the block editor,

game changing and incredible or two or
two of the dozens of positive reactions.

We hope that our prototype spurs
product of productive conversations

within the core community.

And that's that last piece that I'm
still stuck on because we heard.

No, no, no.

This is even, even this prototype
shouldn't, you shouldn't look at it.

You should just move past well, which
is very challenging, you know, for,

for me, you know, in, in this world.

But the point is, is I think wordpress.

com is doing things and doing
things outside of the norm of

WordPress, which I think they
have to, in order for wordpress.

com and automatic to survive, there has
to be a different experience over there.

And I'll say it again, and I do want
to write a post about this or finish

writing my post about it, but the
reckoning is coming where there will

be a different experience over there.

Like this content model could be
an experience you only get at com.

And I wouldn't have an issue with that.

Because you could be influenced
by it and somebody could build

it in open source WordPress.

But I wouldn't mind if com had
that kind of experience and said,

Yeah, you gotta pay for that.

I wouldn't mind because that means, Hey,
that's a way for Automatic to survive.

And it's not really.

undercutting us in any way.

Um, and I think these are the early days.

Uh, where we're starting to see maybe
studio and, and my whole thesis of an app

first experience and smoothing out the
experience for end users is coming and

that best experience will be at dot com.

Mark: Yeah, I mean, there's
a couple thoughts there.

Um, the, the, the layup one on that tweet
specifically is if this was never, if,

if this was put out and the, and there
was no plans to actually make it happen

and it was literally just, hey, look what
we can do, but we're not going to do.

You have to, you have to say that, like,
you absolutely have to say that somewhere.

It's gotta be like, this
is just a prototype.

We are not planning on, on releasing that.

Like, I know that's a weird thing to
write in a tweet, but like you, you

have to absolutely say, I mean, I,
again, I watched Brian's voiceover

video again, too, um, that was, you
know, it was in that tweet there and

it, it didn't make it sound like that.

Again, I'm not criticizing anybody.

I'm sure Brian didn't even
write that script or whatever.

Like it's, that's, has nothing.

I'm not saying about individual
people where I'm saying that at

a 50, 000 foot view as WordPress.

I feel like that is something that
is just like as a, as a consumer of

the information, I was confused and
I'm in this, you're in this, right?

Like imagine the other people is
kind of the way that I look at this.

So that's the first thing.

The second thing though, I mean, I don't
know how deep we want to go into that part

about the commercialized product versus.

org thing.

I'm barely scratching the surface on
kind of forming an opinion on that.

I mean, if, if, if.

com had the content model thing, and
that was like one of the benefits

that you would get from using that and
supporting automatic, like I get that.

I definitely want automatic
to continue to survive.

I'm not sure if that's like off
the top of my head, one of the

best ways for that to happen.

Obviously that's just the example here,
but like, I would probably, if I'm

trying to use my, Logical mindset here.

I'd probably like go look at other
open source platforms and see how their

situation goes, like even outside of it
again, like Linux or something like that.

Like how do those companies.

If there are any sort of a
commercialized arm that is taking care

of that, how do those things survive?

Is it normally that the commercialized
product gets a better product than here?

Because here's the one thing, I
think I sent you this video in DMs.

There's a recent like, if anybody's like
outside of the WordPress space, like

technical like, um, I think Linus Tech
Tips just did it, I don't even watch

him that often, but he had like a video
on like Android open source, right?

I'm an Android guy, as opposed
to you guys that are Apple.

And, um, It was like that the
core experience of that open

source product or that open source
project of Android is so terrible

compared to like the Google flavor.

Now the Samsung flavor now, you
know, whatever else there is.

And it's like, it's almost like it's
not even a thing anymore because

it's, it's so much worse and it
hasn't really been kept up with.

So I don't know if any of that
could happen with WordPress.

I would just be concerned perhaps.

Cause that's another example that
it feels like somewhat similar.

But that's a larger topic.

I don't know if you have thoughts on that
specifically, but that's where I would

go with that would be my next questions.

Yeah,

Matt: I, I do, but, um,

I, I just think that there is, there's
definitely the need to clear up the, um,

You know, all, all the confusion in, in,
in the air, you know, for, especially for

events like this, you know, happenings
like this, that people just can't figure

out and understand why, why it happened.

And, and I think that the only way for,
but yeah, I always have to bring it

back to the commercial side of automatic
because that's just largely in my head

right now, they, they have, you know,
I don't think they're profitable.

I have no idea.

Right.

It's all speculation because
they're a privately held company.

But I don't think they're profitable
compared to their, you know, investments.

Um, and there needs to be, there's
either going to be another round

of funding, if there hasn't already
been, and we just don't know about it.

Um, I'd imagine there'd be another
round of funding, and somebody at some

point is going to say, Get profitable.

Start building at scale.

Um, you know, really start
expanding this thing.

And I don't know how they're
going to do that with just

hosting and just Jetpack, right?

I think that Band Aid needs to get ripped
off where they can turn to people and say,

whatever the number is, 45 percent of the
modern web runs on open source WordPress.

And we have a, which
is massive opportunity.

And then for them to say, over here,
our WordPress is like 20 percent better.

So if you want a better by like 20
percent experience, come over here.

And I think most open source projects,
Ubuntu, Android, maybe licensing and

support, that kind of thing, is all
like more support driven, which you

could also say that's what hosting is.

Yeah, it's hosting, but it's
also support for WordPress.

You know, I don't know of any other
open source project that has, you

know, the strict model of it being
20 percent better over there.

Um, I just feel like that's what
they have to do and they, they

could do, um, if they wanted.

Or slow trickle, uh, out features where
hey, in this release in WordPress 6.

7, WordPress.

com gets this and then WordPress.

org gets it at WordPress 6.

8.

You know, and there's
like a, a one cycle thing.

I wouldn't care about that.

I'd be like, cool, you know, automatics
building cool stuff like this example, and

they're going to slow roll it out to us.

We'll get it in the next version.

I would be totally cool with that.

Um, And I don't know of any
other projects that do that.

We were on a call, I think we were,
you and I were on a call last week,

on a live stream last week when
they brought up Expression Engine.

Or I was definitely on a live
stream, I thought you were with me.

Um, Expression Engine,
tiny compared to WordPress.

But that's an open source project,
and they have the free version.

And then, yeah, you have the paid
versions, which have cool stuff, cool

features you're not going to get in the
free version, and you have to pay for it.

Yeah, okay, Expression Engine does
it, but Expression Engine is tiny.

It's cool.

It's actually a pretty cool CMS.

Um, but, you know, tiny compared
to the influence of WordPress.

Um, yeah, at the end of the day,
though, the optics here are unfortunate.

Uh, Anne McCarthy has been sending us
some stuff on, like, different, like,

Other avenues of, like, the data views,
the native data views that are coming to

WordPress and, like, some of the other
ideas, um, that, you know, we've been

talking about for getting custom post
types and custom fields into WordPress.

This is in our, you know, just for,
for clarity and transparency sake,

um, she's not sending it to just you
and me, she's sending it to a bunch

of YouTubers that meet up regularly.

It's in the YouTube Slack group.

It's not an actual channel.

It's just a group DM.

So for all intents and
purposes, it's public.

I won't read it like line for line,
everything that she has been sending

me, but she was trying to shed some
light on it to say, look, yeah,

this thing is not moving forward.

Um, here are some other examples and, and
I haven't had a chance to dive into these.

Um, but I think this will be a
particular challenge, like the way

that she is communicating this to us.

Although I find it valuable and I'm
glad she is even for us to be like,

Hey, check out like all these GitHub
repos for you and I to like dive into.

We're like, well, I don't have time
yet to like sift through all this stuff

and I'd have to go and experiment it.

Here's why I liked what the wordpress.

com did.

And here's maybe just a lesson for
WordPress development and features

that are coming to WordPress.

He gave us a button.

I could click a button and test it out.

Right.

He just set up the template
in Playground or blueprint.

I forget what I forget what playground
calls it, but it was all there.

It was all set up.

Because sometimes I try to
pull in The PRs and github to

it to playground and it fails.

So I was just like, it gets frustrating.

I'm like, I don't have time to like
dig into this or open up a ticket,

but I, that, that's what I want.

Like, that's one good lesson out
of this is you got a cool feature.

You want me to try it.

Give me the button to click and
I'll go click it and play with it.

And that was, that was exciting.

That was good.

Mark: That was amazing.

Uh, but it, it again kind of speaks
to the fact that coupled with

the language in that GitHub repo.

We did all this, that's awesome.

Why, why is it not, why was it
not ever gonna get released?

Like, I mean, it's a try button.

Like, what?

I mean, unless we have bad information,
which I'm not saying we do.

I mean, it's just, it's very confusing.

Like I don't, I just don't
know what to make of it.

It's, it seems like an amazing, um, an
amazingly cool thing that seems extremely

like forward thinking and, and like
progressive to the WordPress CMS that

everyone was unanimously kind of on.

And I hope that, I honestly hope
that this, our conversation here

ends up getting obsolete and
they do end up bringing this,

like they decide, Hey, maybe.

All these 20, 000 views on this video
signify that maybe we should actually put

this into something and, and plan to have
it, this or some, you know, some evolution

of this into com or org or what have you.

Uh, because I think that that would
be, I think it would be beneficial.

Um, just, I'm just
confused as I usually am.

But to your main point though, the,
the button thing, if you guys aren't

sure about that, like if you go
to the, the tweet, you go to the,

the GitHub repo, there's literally
a button in the readme file just.

So, I mean, that's a hundred
percent agree with you.

If you want somebody to try something,
you got to make it easy for them

because, you know, uh, myself
included, I don't live in GitHub.

Uh, I mean, I know how to be dangerous,
but like, if you just tell me like,

Hey, go here, try this thing out
and let me know what you think.

I could do that.

That's definitely my speed.

Matt: Yeah, I have it pulled up
on the screen again for those,

uh, who are listening, check out
the video, um, with Playground.

I, and.

This is a playground versus studio is
like a whole other topic in my head.

Uh, cause playground and studio are
again, if I go back to my blog post from

2016, like that native app experience,
being able to have a smoother, quicker

experience natively on an app, I
think will still outpace the, You

know, using the web, um, you know, for
speed, uh, and, uh, a smoother, uh,

UI like playground and studio, even
those two compete with each other.

In my opinion, it's like, which
one do you want people to use?

Do you want to use studio from wordpress.

com, which syncs up to a wordpress.

com account, or do you want to use
playground, which is still an automatician

still owned by automatic, but with
air quotes, like the, the wordpress.

org side of things, even that is like.

Oh, who's going to get these features?

You know, like you could run that,
the canvas, uh, whatever it's

called, the content canvas creator.

It doesn't even matter
anymore, we're not using it.

That thing.

Content model.

Content model.

You could use content model on studios,
so Daniel says in his blog post.

Um, so which one wins out?

You know, the playground or studio?

So even those two compete,
which is hilarious.

But I think these are the future
for like developing, developing.

WordPress natively and then
sending it off to, to wherever.

Uh, and that's, you know, again, going
back to the commercial side, that's the

stuff I'm really interested to watch
is can it go wherever, like, will they

allow you to hook up to any hosting
account through studio or playground,

uh, or is it just going to be.

com again?

I wouldn't care if it was just.

com because I look at that as
that's the revenue model they need.

Or do they say, yeah, hook up,
uh, to any web host, but by the

way, we're advertise to you.

In studio app, um, all the stuff
that we have at dot com or jet

pack or WP cloud, et cetera.

Um, that'll be interesting
to see how it plays out.

Mark: Yeah, definitely
gonna keep that in mind.

I mean, we all have to keep in
mind that we got to make money, but

especially the tool that we're using
here, we have to make sure that, uh,

generates revenue again.

Either, you know, there's a lot
of different things going on on

the dot org side kind of now, too.

Um, and but like, I mean, just from
automatic in general again, I hope

that, you know, That's a consideration,
but we got a live demo here.

Look at that.

I mean,

Matt: look how fast that was.

That's amazing.

Right.

The like, just click a block,
save a custom field, publish this.

And then my custom post type is made.

I add the new custom post type.

Mark: Oops.

Better not spell my name wrong.

Again, I

Matt: did that.

I just got, I did that on purpose
for, for all those WP tonic.

Mark Zeminski, whatever he called you.

Uh, and then we go to add new page.

This is riveting for, uh, the podcast
side of things, but I just want to

get down to seeing this, like, and
then you can come in and just pull

in your custom field right there.

It's just already saved in a block
and I can just pull in my custom

fields and build out whatever,
or I can throw a query loop in.

I don't think I can have any control.

I do have control of that.

Um, you know, maybe I, maybe in the
future, I could have filtered this, like,

you know, said, uh, show this custom field
from, you know, this custom post type.

I mean, two weeks, that's what we, we
built this amazing interface in two

weeks, and it's, and we're not getting it.

So, yeah, it's just, it is super
frustrating, um, to not have this.

Mark: Yeah.

Um, you know, I'm the dynamic data guy.

Um, you know, I, I love that.

Um, and I, and I want to see that
continue to continue to grow.

And I mean, obviously like that
was, that was version one of it.

Hopefully it continues to evolve.

We don't know though.

We don't know.

We just don't know anything.

But, um, I don't know.

I think that,

It's, it's probably, it would be a
little different, you know, than using

like a bricks or something like that.

Obviously, you got to get used to
it and everything, but I don't know.

I just, I want us to, I would
love to see it continue to like

focus on those types of things.

Again, I just, I don't know what to say.

I just really appreciated the fact that
we had something here that was like really

brought people together, so to speak.

To, for lack of a better way
to say it, like just like

everybody was on board with.

And then the fact that we get just like
punched right in the gut after that.

Um, It's kind of weird, just
like a little bit of weird

miscommunication, I feel like.

So, um, I hope it, I
hope it finds its way.

But the one other thing I'll say here
is because I've also heard, and I don't

know if this is a sentiment, what I've
interpreted is like, oh, maybe another

way is like, hey, this is what's possible.

Because WordPress, again, I don't
think people understand this, myself

included, WordPress is kind of becoming
this concept of like a framework,

like underneath the hood of this.

There's amazing stuff happening
that I'm only like this much

knowledgeable at, right?

Like all of the, the, the rest API, the
fields API, which is that what this is?

Like leveraging to a degree?

Like the fields API?

I don't, yeah,

Matt: I, I don't know if it's
using, which APIs it's using.

I'm assuming it's using
something in order to do this.

Mark: Regardless, people way smarter
than me on the dev side are like

doing awesome things to core.

I totally understand that the trouble
is that like, it's not, it's not

progressing fast enough on the UX side,
but you could leverage all of that.

There's a lot of themes and things like
that, that I know are leveraging these

types of tools, which is fantastic.

The weird part though, is like, again,
when we see something like this, it's

like, who is kind of making the decision
as far as like what we should kind of put

in there, what we shouldn't put in there.

I know it's a bigger conversation.

Um, but those are, it's just a weird.

It's just a weird spot for me to
kind of see something that, uh,

everybody would really appreciate.

I'm, I didn't see one like
real objection to the concept.

Um, so I'm not sure why that
wouldn't be considered for, for

org, for com, like whatever.

It's just an interesting,
it's an interesting spot.

Um, yeah,

Matt: they'll, they'll probably have
to go and rework this, uh, GitHub page.

Yeah, again, the optics say, like, want
to move this concept forward, feel free

to open an issue in the repo, discuss
your proposed improvements, pull requests

are welcome, you know, we built this
prototype, we may invest in it in the

future, uh, may invest into it further
based on the level of interest, I mean,

the interest looks pretty high, our
near term vision is outlined on this

roadmap issue here, and they have, you
know, even had a little roadmap for it,

uh, which was, which was great, but.

Anyway,

Mark: I don't know.

Maybe that, maybe that's it then.

Maybe it was like kind
of like a feeler thing.

Uh, the, the language around
it was a little confusing.

The follow up news around it was
more confusing, but hopefully maybe

it's like, Hey, I mean, they're
obviously within complete, you know,

ability to just be like, okay, yeah.

I mean, you guys love this thing.

We'll work on it.

Like, I guess they could
definitely do that.

Right.

And I hope they do.

So it's just, it's Yeah,
just a little strange.

I would, I would hope that we'd be
a little bit more clear on the stuff

that we don't know if it's going to
move forward and just be like, Hey

guys, what do you think about this?

Like, just say that rather than be like,
we're doing this, we're doing this.

Whether you, it kind of came across as
we're doing this, whether you like it

or not, and then everyone did like it.

And then we got the, the
kind of the rollback thing.

And then it was like, Oh, okay.

So yeah, it was just a little, just
a little strange, but hopefully

it all works itself out, I guess.

Matt: Our promise to you, dear
listener and viewer, is that

we will follow this story.

We will ask it to the ends of the earth
to figure out what's going to happen.

We will meet with.

Shutting off and every
connection is coming back right

now, maybe, and we're back.

Mark: Yeah.

You dropped for a second.

You're good.

I don't know what that was about.

Matt: Uh, our promise to you is that
we will follow the story and ask

the questions to get the answers.

Um, and we'll, uh, we'll follow this.

We'll talk to folks at WordCamp US.

We'll talk to Anne.

Uh, we'll talk to the powers that
be, hopefully, and get some answers.

So we want it.

I want it.

I like it.

Uh, it's a W.

Yeah, I want the truth.

Uh, insert.

You can't handle the truth meme here.

Um, Yeah, anyway, good discussion.

Uh, this is definitely,
how do the kids say it?

This is an L.

Today.

Mark: I mean, we'll see.

L today maybe right now, but long
term hopefully it'll be a dub.

Matt: Yeah.

You know.

Mark: Yeah, get that dub.

Uh, mjs.

Matt: bio.

Mark: Mark, where else, where
else do you want folks to go?

Uh, that's it.

All the links are there.

Uh, if you guys are going to be at
WCUS, I'd love to chat with you.

Um, yeah, excited for it.

My first one, so we'll see how it goes.

Matt: Fantastic.

Everybody else, the WPMinute.

com, the WPMinute.

com slash subscribe.

We will see you at WordCamp U.