The WP Minute+

Toby: Hello, welcome to whose
WordPress Agency is this.

Anyway, with the legendary
Kurt v Onan, the legend in the

flesh over digital and crimes.

thanks for joining us today.

let's jump in.

We are talking with, the OG
of Podcasting, Matt Madero.

And, He was asking this question because
it was on one of his recent podcasts for

the WP Minute, and the question is, are
the days of hand coding websites over?

Kurt: Is it fair to say
that I wish they were,

it's not my, it's it's not my forte.

It's, it's, it's not my forte.

But, but here's where I'm
gonna tell you it's not over.

I, I do a lot like, so my agency
subcontracts for other larger

agencies, and we also take direct
referrals from like Lifter, LMS

and WP to, and places like that.

I can't tell you how many times I get
on a Zoom call with somebody and I'll

say, oh, what theme are you using?

Or, you know, what, what was this already?

Because they'll ask me to maintain
something and they'll be like,

my website was custom coded by
such and such, you know, blah,

blah, blah, whatever, you know?

Not from America.

Mm-hmm.

And it's a nightmare.

The stuff that you get get into
like, you, you like, oh, they

hard coded the classic editor.

This'll be fun, you know?

oh yeah.

Yeah.

So, so it's not dead.

It's not dead.

I just wish it was

Toby: Uhhuh.

Kurt: I don't know.

How do you feel?

Toby: I think it's perilous either way.

Like I have, every now and then
handed like an Elementor site and

I'm like, what is going on here?

Like, you know, like,

Kurt: yeah.

And then you do the update
and the site goes blank.

Yeah.

Toby: similarly, we had a very small
project come in the other day and

they needed like a slideshow and one
of our developers, like, I'd rather

just code it with a CF rather than,
because I was like, use this plugin.

He's like, no, I'm no boss.

I'm gonna do it this way.

I'm like, okay.

and his way is better, I think, because
what happened was, in hindsight, like.

So he did it and the client's like,
great, can you also do this with it?

And I was like, well, I'm sure I'm
glad we went with the developer's idea.

'cause yeah, this makes it way easier.

Kurt: because, 'cause now,
because we know how we can make

it to all kinds of cool things.

But then that steps into that other
conversation, Toby, where everyone sees

influencers on YouTube and everyone
sees AI and everyone assumes that

everything we do is with an easy button.

And all you gotta do is.

Right.

Right.

And so they see you make the slider
and then they, instead of having,

you know, squares with arrows
in 'em, they want circles with

umbrellas in 'em or something.

Right?

They're like, well, we'd rather
have circles with umbrellas in 'em.

And then you, and you go,
okay, we can do that for you.

Right?

And then it'll be this much more.

And they're thinking, well,
why would I have to pay more?

You already built the slider.

It should be an option.

It should be, I should just tell AI
that I want circles with umbrellas.

Toby: Yeah, exactly.

And this kind of leads
to another question.

That maybe will touch your,
your fancy, fancy bone.

I don't know.

hypothetically, let's say someone
coded something in chat, GPT.

They're a client of yours.

let's say they're a client of mine,
hypothetically coded, hypothetically

coded a plugin in chat GPT, and they
said, Hey, Toby, I think it'll work.

You make it work and
do, it should be easy.

Kurt: Yeah.

How do you respond to, all you gotta do
is, all you gotta do is load up the, I

asked Chad, GPT and chat, GPT said all,
all you had to do was load up these files.

and, and it should work.

Right.

now I'm not really sure how to
do that myself, but, I'm sure

for you it's gonna be easy.

Yeah.

How do, how do you respond to that?

I, well.

My response is, believe it or not, I'm
actually, I'm, I consider myself to

be a pretty diplomatic person, Toby.

So normally what I'll say is,
you know, I see this a lot.

A lot of people are referring to AI to
be this magic, you know, easy button.

if you really want to use this product,
that you've developed, we can try it.

But to do that, I'm gonna want to create.

A staging site, I'm gonna wanna
try it in the staging site.

and then we're gonna have to basically
run it, troubleshoot it, make sure

there's no issues or glitches with it,
make sure there's no conflicts with

preexisting plugins that are on the
website and all those other things.

And once we validate that, then we
could load it up to the live website.

So you're probably looking at
about seven or eight hours.

Toby: And

Kurt: at $150 an hour for agency
time, that's gonna run you, you know,

what is that a thousand dollars?

You know?

Mm-hmm.

Are, are you a player at that?

Are you a player at the, it
should be easy rate, right?

'cause if, if the it should be easy
rate doesn't work for you, you can

always try it yourself or hire someone
on five, Fiverr to give it a shot.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

I think this is like, like one of
those places where especially like

if you don't have an established
company yet and you're like.

I could see you getting pulled into that.

I know, like when I was getting started,
like the, I get got pulled into the, this

is easy, this should be easy projects
you gotta do for low amounts of money.

Oh well you gotta do.

'cause because you know, there are people,
and this is part of like the trickiness

of starting a business, really like,
it's like you get, when you're starting,

you just are saying yes to everything
and you're gonna get people who don't

wanna spend any money on anything.

Yeah.

And, so you, you're, you're in
a position where, you know, like

they're gonna go to Fiverr and pay
someone what they think is five bucks.

That's gonna end up being 500,
but, and none of this money they

get, maybe you lose the client,

Kurt: you know, the, the part that is,
So I've been public with this before.

Like I used to work at Suzuki.

I was in charge of all the publications
and training at Suzuki, and that's

motorcycles, automotive, Marine,
like it's three huge divisions.

It's a, it was a big company when I
got the job and the vice president in

charge of my division, my department,
It says, he would come up to me all

the time and he would say, well,
we need to create this new module.

We need to create this
new e-learning thing.

We need to create this new whatever.

And I'd be like, okay.

Okay, boss.

Okay.

And I'd be taking notes and stuff.

And then he would say, so all, all
you need to do is, and as soon as

he, that phrase came out of his
mouth, I was like, we're doomed.

We're doomed.

This is gonna be a 300 hour project.

Right.

And I would just literally start like.

Trying to figure out what the
Gantt chart was gonna look like

for this project that I knew was
gonna morph into something giant.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

And

Kurt: that's when people come to
me with these easy solutions for,

you know, these AI easy solutions.

That's where I, I start to go, okay,
let's Gantt chart the sucker out and

see what this is really gonna cost.

Because even the easy, all you should
have to do is still takes time.

And when you multiply that
time against your rate, you go,

well, this is how much it is.

Because the numbers are the numbers.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

There's another interesting thing
about this AI doing your initial

building, like, not even prototyping,
but like, hey, we're gonna build an app

with ai, and it's like our prototype
and then it's gonna be our app.

that like, you have no idea
what, how it was built.

And you know, when you go to add a
feature later, there's no, you don't

know that chat GPT is, or whoever,
whatever you're using, that it's

gonna know how to add a feature even.

no.

Kurt: the, the, and here's me not
knowing what I'm talking about.

Right.

Which I know is, is one of, I'm
just, so I'm just gonna break

one of Matt's rules right now.

I'll say something about
something I have no knowledge of.

somebody was just putting up on
social last week about some tool that

verifies whether content is AI written
or not, because you can look at the

code, like you copy the text and then
you look at the code for the text.

And within the code for the
text is like this repetitive,

alphanumeric sequence that chat GPT
puts in so that it flags it as ai.

Right.

And so I always wondered how does
Google know that that was ai?

Right?

Well, they know because there's some code
in the text that's saying, Hey, this.

This seven digit or six digit code
pops up in every third paragraph.

So we know this was AI derived and so you
have to ask yourself if that were true,

because again, I'm not the authority.

I don't know if that's really true or
not, but let's just assume that it is.

'cause it sure does make a lot of sense.

So if that was true, what would chat
GPT be embedding into your plugins

or into the things that are going
into your website and then you

don't really know what's in there?

Mm-hmm.

You don't know what
ties they're gonna make.

You don't know if there's a feedback
loop of data coming out of your

website for something like chat.

GT's whole mission is to add more
learning sources to its feed.

Right?

And so it's like, how much trust
do you wanna put in this thing?

I was at an event yesterday with
young people and young people don't

have, I shouldn't say it like the
way it's coming outta my face.

I should change the way I'm phrasing this.

young people don't seem to have
any reference points for the

things that make us giddy, right?

But they also don't seem
to have any knowledge about

what it is that we're doing.

And so that was a huge
wake up call for me.

I was, I was hanging with a bunch
of young people yesterday at a

high school, and I was in charge of
doing three separate presentations.

Each was 20 minutes long.

And I was supposed to like convey
what having an agency was like, which

aligns very well with this podcast.

And, and I didn't realize it at first.

And I don't know if I, I don't know
if I wrote this to you or not in

the note, I didn't know how the
students got assigned to the groups.

I, I just thought they
randomly got selected.

'cause there was like 50 businesses
locally that volunteered for this

day of sharing with these kids.

And so I ended up with three
classrooms, 15 to 20 kids in each class.

So let's, you know, round the
number up and say there's 60 people

I have access to for the day.

Right.

And so, they came in their 20
minute session was like, boom.

Like, like I'm Kurt.

This is what I've done.

You know, I've raced motorcycles, I've
worked for Suzuki, I've worked for Ducati.

That gets their eyes going, right?

Like, oh, okay, what, what,
what does this guy do?

Mm-hmm.

And I run my own agency.

And for like less than a thousand dollars,
you could start an agency like, you know,

'cause WordPress runs 43% of the internet.

It's open source and blah, blah, blah.

So I have this presentation, right?

The first class I was like, show of
hands, how many kids in here have

heard the word WordPress before?

And in the first class.

Nobody's hands went up.

And I was like, wow, WordPress runs
43% of the internet and nobody in this

room has ever heard the word before.

and I, and I thought, well, this is weird.

Maybe the class just isn't participating.

I asked some other questions
and they all participated.

So it was like, it's not that
they're afraid to participate.

They really don't know that not a
single one of 'em ever heard the

term open source before, and they
didn't know what open source meant.

So I ended up having to explain
that and then of course, as you

can imagine, 20 minutes was up.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Right,

Kurt: right, right.

Yeah.

So I didn't get a lot of chance for
a lot of feedback and stuff, uhhuh.

Now, what was cool about this though,
is after that session, a couple of

kids came up and said, Hey, how can
I get in touch with you after this?

Like, I'm interested in
what you're talking about.

I said, okay, well that's, that's cool.

That's great.

That worked.

In the second session, I
switched things up a little bit.

It and turned out two kids
heard of WordPress before.

No one ever heard of open source, and I
left more room for questions at the end,

and there were some good questions, but
it was like, it was pretty interesting.

In the third session, I
changed my delivery completely.

I inverted the order of my presentation,
and so I started with, Hey, if I could

show you a business that you could start
up for less than a thousand dollars.

And show you how to make six
grand with it before summer.

Would that be interesting?

And they were like, yeah.

I said, great.

Stay tuned.

'cause we're gonna go through the rest
of this and I'll get you that answer.

And then they paid attention.

But then one person in the room
heard about WordPress and still

nobody knew what open source was.

And this, this was alarming to
me because I, I assume students

would know more about the stuff.

But Toby, here's what I don't
think I shared with you.

I asked my son who goes to the school,
I said, Hey, how'd your talks go?

He said, oh, they went great.

I said, how did you know
what classes to go to?

How did you know what groups to be?

And he goes, oh, we picked them.

And I said, what?

Hold on.

You picked who you wanted to listen to.

And he said, yeah, we, they gave us a list
of everybody that was coming and we got

to pick the classes we wanted to go to.

And so I'm very optimistic
because my classes were full.

Right.

My classes were full.

Yep.

And the kids picked the subject.

But the kids have no idea what
WordPress is or what open source

is or how to even get started.

Right?

And so you and I are now running this
podcast of whose WordPress agency

is it anyway, and I'm talking to an
entire audience of young people that

have no idea what we do, which means,
in terms of the Stephen Covey process

of always Train Your Replacement.

We haven't trained our replacements
because they don't even know what we do.

Toby: Would, we might not know the
answer to this, but if you said build a

website, would they know where to start?

Do they know any of the like,
Squarespace, you know, would they,

Kurt: so they know the commercials for
Wix and Squarespace, but they don't

really have any experience with it.

I started asking questions like,
what does the school teach?

Because one of the kids that
knew what WordPress was said

that Hutchinson Community College
actually taught WordPress.

And I was like, so what did
they teach about WordPress?

And they basically teach
like, this is WordPress.

You can go to wordpress.com,

you can go to wordpress.org,

you can install WordPress and you
can use it to build websites, sites

like mm-hmm.

End of 40, right?

Yeah.

And so I'm like, wow, you know,
and this isn't a week when.

At the risk of changing the channel
again, did you see the post from Matt

Mullenweg on X, where he was asking for,
does anyone know a good marketing solution

for WordPress to get better known?

Oh, wow.

You know, and I was, and
so he's getting a lot of.

He's getting a lot of the normal Matt
Mullenweg feedback on X about that.

Yeah.

Right.

But the, that's a really
great question for him to be

asking as the head word press.

Yeah.

Here we are exposing ourselves
from an agency perspective who,

who propagates more websites.

Right?

Agencies, right?

Mm-hmm.

So it's a one to many call
rather than a one to one call.

And then we have all these young people
that don't even know what the product is.

Toby: Right.

It makes me wonder, like, I don't like.

How, if you, if they asked, like what
percentage of our high school graduating

classes went into web development, I
don't, it's probably a very low percent.

Right?

Like

Kurt: a lot of 'em.

So yeah, I asked some of these questions
like, so what are they teaching here?

Well, they're teaching coding.

Mm-hmm.

Coding.

Okay.

What's coding like?

What kind of coding are
you guys talking about?

Mm-hmm.

You know, is it PHP?

Are you in c plus plus?

Like what?

Like what, what are you guys doing here?

and then a lot of it comes down to
these are basic languages to stair

step into something else later.

And most of the kids are interested
in gaming, so that ends up talking

about like how to, no code and low
code, these different gaming platforms.

You know, as if they're all gonna make a
living someday with, eSports or something.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: But there, that leaves our
whole segment of what, like you

and I do, like up in the air.

Toby: Yeah.

It, and it's the, the lack of any mention
or any knowledge of, open source, it

seems like a fail of a civics education.

Like

Kurt: I didn't hear the term open
source until I was like 28 years old.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And so I don't know how old
we should, we should have done

some research before the show.

I don't know how old the term is, right?

Mm-hmm.

But I didn't hear it until
I was about 28 years old.

And when I first heard it, I was like,
well, that doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean this stuff is free?

You know?

And I was like, trying to
like figure out like, mm-hmm.

So what's, so what's the
business model there?

Right?

Right.

How does that work?

And, and, and I was, and it was a
confusing subject for me at that age.

now I understand things much, much better.

But still the idea that the schools
aren't covering it all, like they're

not even touching the subject and
they're leaving these kids with this

like, so the other thing was, have
you ever seen the movie Rain Man?

Yeah, sure.

Mm-hmm.

How much is a Snickers bar?

I.

I don't remember that part.

Thousand dollars wasn't it?

Or 50,000?

It was.

Raymond was like, Snickers bar.

$50,000.

Okay.

And, this kid in the room said he
wanted to start, he wanted to, he

wants to own, an automotive dealership.

He wants to own a car dealership.

Okay, great.

Like a new one.

And he goes, yeah.

You know.

Okay.

how much money does that take?

I ask him.

He goes.

Oh, about a hundred thousand dollars.

And I'm like, for one of the
cars, you know, one of those new

trucks that you're gonna put on
the lot is a hundred grand Uhhuh.

You know, I'm like, eh,
it's more like $10 million.

Mm-hmm.

You know, you have to be liquid,
you have to be 10 million.

You have to display on paper that
you could get $10 million so that

you can leverage yourself to build a
project of that size and magnitude.

And he was like, oh, I had no idea.

You know, and I'm thinking
shame on the school system for

letting them get that far and.

The dream process without even
understanding what, what's at play, right?

Like just in basics.

I asked a lot of kids what, you know,
Hey, if you could make $60,000 a year,

do you think that would be good money?

And half the room was like,
yeah, it'd be all right.

And I'm like, do you know what the
average person makes the United States?

Do you know that you live in Hutchinson,
Kansas, which is next to Wichita, Kansas?

What's the average earnings in Wichita?

What's the cost of living here compared to
California or Portland or New York City?

And they were like, oh,
I really don't know.

And I was like, you guys
need to know this stuff.

'cause it's how you make your decisions.

Like for me, when I think about agency
life as a WordPress professional, going

from the California economy to the Kansas
economy changed our game completely.

'cause we lowered our overhead by 60%.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

One thing that's promising about
the, the three classrooms full of

kids, it's the three classrooms
full of kids who presumably.

We're interested in web development of
some sort, is that they chose it, right?

Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And so I'm not, I really need
to do more research 'cause I wanna

find out how did the school really
present those talks to those kids?

Mm-hmm.

What was the buzzword that made 60 kids
wanna sit in a room that I was hosting?

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: You know, what was the, 'cause
they don't know who I am, you know?

Unless.

They're really progressive and did
like, looked me up on the internet.

Kurt went on and on their phone
and went, oh, this guy's got

80 pages of Google reference.

He must be famous.

you know, it, it's, I'm not
sure how they picked the rooms.

Mm-hmm.

So I'd kind of like to know that.

But to your point, 60 kids signed up
to hear about what we do for a living.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: That's exciting.

Toby: Yeah,

Kurt: that's really exciting.

The idea that they have no base
knowledge in what we do is disappointing,

especially for people that.

Hm.

Take it classes at the high school.

but I don't even know if I fought
the high school for that because who

approached the high school and said,
what does your curriculum look like?

How come WordPress isn't included?

How do we get WordPress
included in your curriculum?

And how do we show people how
to leverage WordPress to make

money as an agency owner?

Because schools are really in the
business of getting people ready

to go to more school, not mm-hmm.

Jump out of, jump out of the
school cycle and start your

own business and make money.

Toby: Right.

Kurt: See, I've opened up a
whole can of worms here, Toby.

Toby: Yeah.

And, one thing that struck me
as interesting, so you were in

California, had an agency in
California come to Hutchinson.

couldn't you have kept your
California rate or did you keep your

California rates when you did that?

Kurt: Yeah, of course I did.

'cause our customers are
from all over the globe.

Mm-hmm.

That's what I was trying
to talk to the kids about.

I was like, 'cause I said, how many
of you can't wait to get out of this

small town when you get outta school?

You know?

And they're all like,
I'm getting outta here.

You know?

It was like one of those
old Tom Cruise movies about

playing football in Pittsburgh.

Right.

I gotta get out of this town.

And I'm like, so why do you think
you need to leave this town?

We have the fastest internet in the
country and the lowest cost of living.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Right.

This is the

Kurt: perfect place to.

Put down the roots and grow an agency.

Yeah.

Grow digital

Toby: agency.

Kurt: you know, newsflash, I'm
working with the city and with

an organization here in town to
start an apprenticeship program

for kids that want to do an agency.

Right.

Like, like, but figure out like, how does
the college have a, have a stake in that?

How does the city have a stake in that?

And the, the goal is if we could
convince more young people to stay here.

Put down roots and grow a business.

It adds to the tax base and, and
all those positive things that,

you know, a community, you know,
any kind of civic thing needs.

Right.

so there's a lot going on
in the background there.

So I loved doing the talk and
I loved getting access to those

kids, but it was really interesting
to see like, where are they at?

Mm-hmm.

Like their interest level is here,
their base knowledge is here.

And their motivation is
really somewhere in between.

Like what, what's the real motivation
gauge for them to take what they learn

and actually take an, take action with it
and become, you know, become the owner.

Right?

Because a lot of these kids are
raised with employee attitudes,

not with owner attitudes.

Toby: Yeah.

I, I, I think, I have this hypothesis,
It's probably borne out in some data, or

at least can be provable with existing
data somewhere that, or disprove.

But like the idea is like if you
come from a family of entrepreneurs,

you're gonna be an entrepreneur.

and if you come from a family of nine to
fivers, you're probably gonna be a nine

to five or, and I wa like, when I hear
like, like there's also, we could go a

number of directions with how would to
train youth and what, you know, like.

There's probably different opinions,
like I would say like yeah, train

'em to be entrepreneurs, like, yeah.

yeah.

And then add, add the context of,
well, and then there's this other

thing called full-time, and you know,
you can fall back to that if you need

to, but to fund your other thing.

Kurt: Well, I think, I think geofencing,
the idea has a certain merit, right?

Because in California.

I, I would be hard pressed to tell
somebody like, get outta school

and start a business in California.

It's not a friendly place to
start a business just being real.

I mean, I lived it, so I can
tell you firsthand, it's not a

friendly place to start a business.

You have to say yes to every single
deal that comes across your desk and

you have to work your pants off to,
to try and make the rent payment, the

$900 power payment, the, I mean, it's
just, it's just huge to live there.

Whereas here.

Your point, like you could look at
full-time or you could do this kind of

thing where you have ownership of it.

Right.

And it could grow organically and
you could still make your, your

minimum required funding to eek
out your existence while it grows.

That's interesting.

Toby: Like let's say you're an agency
that's a year or two old and you're

struggling, maybe you're in the wrong
location 'cause you could pack up and go

somewhere cheaper and make a go of it.

And the, the thing that I think like.

in hindsight, like, the, maybe,
maybe the only quality that makes a

business go is, is did you make it?

Like, did you survive another year?

You did.

Great.

That's all you had to do.

Survive one more year.

And then you'll be, you know,

Kurt: you know how they, they would say
things like, if you make it more than

three years, you know, your chances
of success, you've made it more than

five years, your chances of success.

Mm-hmm.

And then I look at this, you know,
my agency started in 2008, and while

I put a pause on it for corporate
employment, I never fully shut it down.

It was always kind of in the background,
had a couple of things going at a time,

you know, trying to stay fresh, trying
to, and then when I got laid off in 2020.

Sure I looked for another job, but I also
was like, I gotta ramp this thing up.

Like this thing has to create revenue
quickly or we're gonna run outta

money and we are in California, so of
course I had to ramp it up quicker.

We're gonna run outta money.

And what I found out was my ability to
ramp something up and generate revenue was

a whole lot more positive than sending out
resumes and hoping and praying because it

was at a period of time when there weren't
a ton of jobs out there in my space.

So I was really glad I had the ability
to ramp up and do the things that I do.

Toby: Yeah, I think about that a lot.

'cause I have some friends that
are looking for jobs right now.

High, very talented one's a coder.

Yeah, one's marketer just, and they're
like senior level type of people,

like in the organizations they,
they've been in and I look at 'em

oftentimes, I'm like, just go freelance.

You're investing eight hours
a day looking for jobs.

Just consult, go look for clients for
eight hours a day, you'll do well.

Like trust me,

Kurt: people like you.

I tell people this all the time, like
when people say, what does your agency do?

A lot of times I'll say, we
help people launch their ideas.

We help people launch their messages
so that everybody can see it.

You know?

And it sounds very simple
when you say that, but.

Every time I see somebody like
looking on LinkedIn, I think

to myself, oh my goodness.

With that skillset and that background,
you're 52 years old with 35 years

of actionable experience, you should
be a consultant for $300 an hour.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: Like you should not be trying
to get the next job for $42 an hour.

Toby: Yeah.

Yeah.

Or, you know, or, or go sell a project.

Kurt: Yeah.

Yeah.

Or become somebody's, you know, seat
fractional, CTO, fractional, CMO.

Mm-hmm.

Fractional, you know,
all these other things.

Toby: I think like, what are some
of the, the things that get in

people's way, let's call 'em, some
of 'em are probably in their heads.

some are probably, most are in their
heads, I'm guessing, at least if

you're in the United States, like,
let's say you're somebody with that.

Experience.

What's getting in your way?

Kurt: Two things.

I hear security and benefits, and
I always go straight to security.

Can't be the reason because you're looking
now, so how secure was the last thing?

Toby: Right,

Kurt: so security's off the table.

You don't get to talk about security.

There's no security from
corporate America any longer.

You don't.

Mm-hmm.

You don't get your desk and
then stay there for 30 years.

It's, that doesn't happen anymore.

And so security's out the window.

The other thing is benefits, and
I always, it's so weird, Toby.

I had a really cool job in Albuquerque
running an automotive center.

And the benefits were costing us, and
I'm guessing now 'cause it was a long

time ago, but let's say it was $865 a
month to keep the family on the, mm-hmm.

On the benefits package, when I
knew I was gonna leave that job.

We had a young daughter and I knew that
my wife liked the pediatrician, and I

knew that if I was gonna leave this job,
I had to keep that pediatrician, right?

Mm-hmm.

I had to keep some stability in the
household, so I called the hospital

directly and I said, Hey, I'm gonna
leave this job, which means I'm

gonna lose these benefits and I don't
wanna pay for that cobra nonsense.

So, I need to know how much it would be if
I wanted to self support seeing the same.

People.

And she said, well, what, you
know, where do you work now?

What do you currently pay?

And then she goes, oh sweetie, you
just need to go to our website,

which is blah blah blah.org.

And, and you'll see a
list of our plans there.

You're probably gonna be a little
upset when you see the plans.

She goes, but you qualify for
those and, and select the plan

that you want and you'll be fine.

Toby, the plans were like 400 a month.

Toby: Uhhuh.

Kurt: My employer was making $450 a month
off of me selling me medical insurance.

Yep.

Like, who knows if the employer was making
it or that was some kind of weird rate.

But insurance is like this crazy thing.

Yeah.

Where the rates change based
on your employment status.

Mm-hmm.

And a lot of times when you're employed,
you're just getting ripped off anyway.

Toby: Yeah.

Well, the employer's selecting options.

Yeah.

and I only know this 'cause I, I bought
insur, usually my wife has insurance

through her stuff, but this year she's
like, my company isn't offering it.

And so I went out there and got it.

And it, one thing that was really
interesting, so I bought it and

like the options are really weird.

It's hard to figure 'em out, but I
ended up buying one that, it wasn't that

much more than the others, but it was
like a little bit more, but it's like.

I, I went to my first therapy
session and he's like, I think

you're gonna get this for free.

I'm like, what?

Like, no, I think it's free.

What?

And it's like, it has
unlimited free therapy.

Like, I'm like, okay.

And like I'm paying out of pocket.

It's not.

That would probably never
be provided by an employer.

It's too generous or something,
but it's too generous or something.

Kurt: Well, that's the, the thing that
I keep going back to when someone says,

when I go, you should be a consultant or
You should run your own agency, or you

should, you know, why are you, why are you
fighting so hard to sell your talent to

a boss when you could just run this thing
and have some freedom that comes with it?

And they'll say, they'll, they'll
go, well, it's the stability.

Well, stability doesn't count anymore.

It's the benefits.

That doesn't really count anymore either.

Like what is it that
really keeps you from it?

And then it comes down to that
imposter syndrome thing, right?

Where it's like, well, I just,
I don't think I have the skills

to run my own entity, you know?

And it's, I got news for you.

Go out and create the revenue.

If you hate bookkeeping,
hire a bookkeeper.

If you hate marketing, hire a marketer.

If you hate talking to
customers, hire a va.

Like there's so many ways that
you can incorporate yourself.

To, to really take advantage of
something that, yeah, I, I think

I'm emotionally unemployable now.

Toby, just listen to me.

I'm

Toby: crazy.

Yeah, I know.

I'm listening.

I'm like, never, I would,
nobody's gonna hire this guy.

Except, except for some reason on
a weird freelancing basis, like I.

Like an agency basis, you know?

Yeah.

It's weird.

You're right.

Like, like could you get employ,
maybe you, maybe you are unemployable,

but do you know how to sell projects
that, you know, create a living?

Sure.

yeah.

And I wonder if that's it.

Like there's some like
weird mental hurdle.

I've seen lots of friends go through
this where they're like, I'm gonna

go for it and do the agency thing.

Or not even agency's probably too
strong a word, but consulting,

and they can't figure it out.

And I'm always like,
what's so hard about this?

Like, you gotta sell.

That's the whole job, basically.

a lot of people hate the selling

Kurt: part.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: But they don't realize, for
instance, my meeting last week with a

local business wasn't me selling at all.

They had hired somebody to make
them a one page website that.

Was grossly overcharged and doesn't work.

I mean, it literally doesn't work.

You click on things,
they don't go anywhere.

I mean, it's just like, and when
he called 'em and said, this

website's not working right.

The guy said, well, if you
would've given me more money, it

would've been a better website.

And so, you know, I didn't
have to sell anything.

This disgruntled client went
to the Chamber of Commerce

and said, oh my goodness, I'm
between a rock and a hard space.

I just paid this guy
2,500 bucks for a website.

That doesn't work.

I don't know what to do.

And they said, well,
have you talked to Kurt?

Yeah.

Like, it's just because it's, the more
you associate and network and meet people,

the more the work just comes to you.

Toby: Yeah.

And another story about,
how easy it can be to sell.

Like selling is not always
what you see in the movies.

Like, I got a call, let's say month and
a half ago from a guy he called at like

7:30 AM I called him back at like 8:01
AM and turns out it's you know, he's

like, I need a website, da da da da.

And I'm talking to him and on the phone.

Yeah.

On that call without me
really doing any pitching.

he, he bought, he gave me his credit card,
took thousands of doll, you know, he paid

me thousands of dollars on that call.

Never met him before.

He's ready to pay, you know, like
you just gotta like, be there

when they're ready, half the time.

Like, well, but you did the,

Kurt: the, the

Toby: thing

Kurt: that you did was
you called him back.

Toby: Yeah, no, that's what he said.

I talked to him today.

He's like, I'm sure glad
that you called me back.

Otherwise, who knows where I'd be.

Yeah.

Kurt: Because I talk to other
customers all the time, and one of

the things that, so Ana Nomas was
born outta this weird scenario, right?

And that's why we have the name we have.

But Ana Nomas, like, we, we get
it done, we get it done, and

customers aren't used to it.

They're not used to like, oh, there
was a date on the calendar and that

date's coming and the job's done.

Or You didn't ask me for more money.

Like, that's so weird.

Most, most every time we've
contracted with someone before,

they've always come back and asked
for more money, and it's like, no.

Like I did the needs assessment.

I knew what it was gonna cost to get it
done, and I knew how long it would take.

Mm-hmm.

All I did was do what I said I would do.

Toby: Yeah.

But

Kurt: because I did what I said I would
do, they referred me to three more people.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: At higher paying gigs.

Toby: Yeah.

You know what else I was thinking?

there's a fear, I was reading this
today, like there's a, a mental blocker,

that applies here and it's like people
are afraid to like, tell people that

they're freelancing or consulting.

Yeah.

Like let's say on your Facebook
page you're like, I can't post that.

I, everybody else is posting baby
photos and food photos or whatever.

Yeah.

and the, the gist of the
article was like, no, post it.

Own it.

Just lean in.

You're, you're now looking for work.

Here's what you do.

Like, yeah, you're gonna lose some
Facebook friends, but you know, so what?

If

Kurt: you run into somebody on the
street at the grocery store who

tells you some horrific story about
how they just had to hire a stranger

to do something that you do because
they thought you worked somewhere

else and that you were unavailable.

Right, right.

And, and, and then they tell
you the project's going horribly

and they're getting overcharged
and it's behind schedule.

And in your mind, you're hearing
all this and you're like.

Why didn't they hire me?

They didn't hire you because they
didn't know you were available.

Right.

So shame on you.

Mm-hmm.

Shame on you.

They're having a horrible experience
and you're not making any money.

Right.

And so it, it's, it's the worst
scenario that could possibly happen.

I agree with you a hundred percent.

When people, people in town meet
me at like a Sandhill Brewery where

Pippen Williamson owns that place.

Right.

So if anyone knows Pippen,
shout out to Pippen.

I go down to Sand Hills and, and people
say, oh, hey, are you on Facebook?

And they'll, they start looking.

They don't follow me on Facebook,
and I just tell 'em straight up.

I go, I post a lot of content.

If you don't want to be
my friend, that's okay.

Toby: That's

Kurt: okay, because I still
post all my stuff on there,

Toby: Uhhuh, you know?

Yeah.

You know, what'd be fun?

as we close out here,
we're about out of time.

let's hypothetically say we have
a listener or two with a story.

About how they sold something.

Maybe it was easy, maybe it was hard.

I would love to hear that story.

Kurt: I would too.

Especially ones that get like, that
just seem to go a, A pathway off.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: Right, right.

When you think so nothing's gonna
happen, and all of a sudden, bam.

It happens.

Yeah.

It's usually the happiest
thing in the world.

Yeah.

Before we get off the call.

What was one that surprised you?

One where you, like you entered
a conversation and next thing

you know, you were like, where'd
all this money come from?

Yeah.

Toby: okay, here's an example.

It happened recently.

I get a, a, a phone call from a, a
client that probably pays me $300 a

year for hosting or, you know, whatever.

And they're like, I need a website.

I needed it done yesterday.

No, no, no.

What happened was, another person on
their team called me month ago and

was like, yeah, we're thinking about
building a website, dah, dah, dah, dah.

And I, so I, like, I sent them a
contract, was like, here it is.

If you want it, let's do it.

A month and a half later,
the owner calls me.

He is like, I don't know
what happened there.

Where, where's the
contract that I can sign?

So I said to him, he signed it,
and they're like, you know that,

you know, I'm sure he paid me that
day or the next day or whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Kurt: that is good stuff.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: I have a couple of books
published and every now and

then doesn't happen often.

I wish it did.

Every now and then someone out of
the blue will call and say, are you

the author that wrote this book?

And I'll say, yes.

And then they'll say, well, we
wanna hire you for X, Y, and z.

And it comes outta nowhere.

Wow.

And I just, and then sometimes I
say, okay, well, based on that short

conversation, just to be clear, you want
this bullet, this bullet, this bullet,

this bullet, and then I've learned
over time, I don't give them a price.

I say, my guess is you're not the
person with the budget for this project.

I just wanna let you know that I
can take care of all the bullets we

just discussed, but I need you to
get back to me and let me know what

your budget is for that project.

And it's always more than I would ask for.

Toby: Interesting.

Kurt: Yep.

Yeah, that's great point.

That's become one of my sales tools.

It's like mm-hmm.

I'm not gonna give you the number.

I need to know what
your budget is for this

Toby: uhhuh.

Kurt: and usually the
work equals the budget.

Yeah.

Like, I'm not saying I get away,
like making millions of dollars,

but it's, there's always something
you didn't foresee, right?

Yeah.

There's something in the communication
that doesn't come through.

So if you're thinking, oh, this
is worth six grand, and they say,

well, we've got $12,000 for this.

Take the 12,000 because something's
gonna happen as you roll that out

where they're gonna be like, oh, we
thought this was gonna be automated.

And you're like, oh, crap.

Also, it's run, run the chat
GPT and write a plug for that.

Toby: I should, I should I?

You, I would probably add, semi
begrudgingly, take the 12,000.

Ah, I guess I can do it for that for
you, because you're such a good client.

Kurt: I always go like this.

Hold on.

I gotta see if I can pull it off.

Ready.

Toby: That's great.

Kurt: Well, the good news is, you know,
for 12,000, I'm pretty sure we can

check off all of those bullet points
on your, on your needs assessment.

Toby: Love it.

And on that note, this has been an episode
of whose WordPress agency is this Anyway.

With, Kurt Vanna.

I'm Toby Kres.

We'll talk to you next week.

Have a good one.