The WP Minute+

Kurt: Hey, welcome listeners and viewers.

My name is Kurt v Onan.

I'm here with Toby Kres, and you
are at another episode of Who's

WordPress Agency Is this Anyway,
and Toby, welcome to the call.

Thank you, Kurt.

Toby: We got a story for you.

Kurt: I'm all up for

Toby: stories.

I went to a no code meetup in Minneapolis.

Kurt: I, I, I was gonna ask
you why I saw the notes and I

was like, I should ask him why.

I said, I'll just wait till the show.

what possessed you to go to a
no code meetup in Minneapolis?

Toby: Well, turns out there's
this thing called AI and a lot of

people are talking about it and
no code is like the extreme of ai.

It's like people who have no
business coding are coding.

And so I was like, I don't
really understand it, but

I'm gonna go check it out.

And I've dabbled in it, but like.

It was really something, Kurt.

'cause there were about 15
people there, and almost all

of them have real businesses.

Some of them had, one guy
had like 10 employees.

He has no idea how the code is written.

Like he has 10 employees.

None of them know what the code is.

And I'm just like, and and he, he
was upfront in the media, he's like.

If something happens, I have
no way to get this back.

Like, there's no backups.

Like, like he doesn't
know what he's doing.

He's got 10 employees
and customers paying him.

I was just like, this is

Kurt: awesome.

How many times have you seen this in
your agency Walk of life though, where

you're, you're doing the work, you're
putting in the homework, you're, you

know, you are pushing the wheelbarrow man.

You are doing what it
takes to grow your agency.

A way that you think is,
you know, equitable and

ethical and all those things.

And then you run into people that are
growing businesses with customers and

revenue, and you're, and they're like,
well, my MRR is, and they're talking

all this, you know, entrepreneur speak.

And they outwardly appear to be doing very
well and have no clue what they're doing.

na: Yeah.

Kurt: Yeah.

It's freakish.

It's absolutely freakish
and it happens a lot.

Toby: Yeah.

And you know, maybe the analogy, I don't
think it's a one-to-one analogy, but like

we probably both know people who have
started WordPress agencies who have no

idea how to design, no idea what good
design, bad design, good code, bad.

They don't code maybe like.

But they, they're, I know a guy in
town who probably hasn't learned

how to design or code, but he's
still running a pretty big agency.

Kurt: I told people for the longest time,
and I used to even say it on the other

show that I'm on with Jonathan Denwood.

I would say I'm more of an implementer,
not a designer, but I added designers

to my team to make up for my deficiency.

And what I didn't realize that I was doing
when I said that was I was automatically

giving myself the backseat and telling
people I didn't know what the heck

I was doing, when in reality I did.

I just don't prefer to be
the one trying to invent.

Design, you know what I mean?

Like, like if someone shows me a
website and it's got a really bad

representation for white space or glaring
color, that should not be on a page.

Or, we talked about
accessibility last week, right?

So, so maybe I'll see something of,
oh, well that's not accessible, that's

a, there's not enough, variance in the
color from the background to the text.

And so when I have those conversations,
I realize, oh, I am, I am a designer.

I just.

Choose not to soak up
my time in that space.

That is completely different than,
I don't know what the heck I'm doing

at all, but I run the company and I
try to make a gazillion dollars at

this thing because sooner or later I.

The cat's out of the bag.

You know, people recognize you
don't know what you're doing and

they've given you their money.

So now, you know, and especially in
the world of Stripe, I don't know

if you've ever had anyone say, I
want my money back with Stripe, or

one of these tools that we Sure.

Mm-hmm.

There's not a, there's not a whole
lot of, Flexibility in the argument.

Right, right, right.

Like you wake up one day and the
money's gone and you go, Hey, Mr.

Stripe, what happened to my money?

And then, well, the customer
said they weren't happy.

Well, well, let me show you
why they should be happy.

You know?

And then you gotta spend eight hours.

Yeah.

Documenting every conversation you
ever had with the customer to justify

that you are correct in hopes of
getting some of your money back.

so I'm really curious as to where
these people are gonna go that don't

know what the heck they're doing.

Well, I think,

Toby: like, to me it's, it's a
different mindset to be like, I.

they have no, for me, like
I always have feel a lot of

accountability for what I produce.

Mm-hmm.

Like, and part of it's probably the
WordPress ethos, like, like, we're

backwards compatible, like, you know,
we're, you're gonna have a community

supporting you, whether it's me or.

Someone else.

these people don't have any sense of that.

They're just like, I'm
out there for the money.

And, and frankly, some of 'em were
nonprofits, that, that were doing real

work in the community and had investors
and you know, like had people and you

go like, and they're doing great work,
great things, you know, like you go like.

I don't know.

It was foreign to me because
they took no responsibility.

Like, like future facing responsibility?

Kurt: No, no.

Like, like their lifetime deal isn't
for the lifetime of the client.

Their lifetime deal is like for
as long as I feel like doing this.

Yeah.

Toby: Yeah.

And I thought I, you know, like,
I wonder too, like that comment

actually like sparked something in me
where I'm like, we've seen a lot of

lifetime deals since you and I have
been in WordPress lifetime deals just.

Disappear from the, you know,
you bought it and now it's gone.

Now you're paying monthly all of a sudden.

Yeah.

Poof.

And so it's not, I don't wanna like
say it's like something weird that's

happening that hasn't, you know,
but I don't know if it's ethics.

What is it that I'm, you know, like

Kurt: I, this is so akin to
you and I are like in the same

space, but different ballparks.

Right.

I was reading A-T-L-D-R.

You know, email link this morning, and
it was about somebody in the SaaS space

that considers themselves a developer.

So they consider themselves a developer.

Boom.

And they realized they needed to rework
their entire platform and they've been

getting real interested in AI and things.

So they jumped into, you know, Claude
and Cursor and all these things and,

and they started rebuilding this
project on a different platform.

So they were, they were.

They had a project that would worked
well, but was getting dated, and

they wanted to update that platform
on something completely new.

They, they wanted to update that
platform on something completely new.

My computer just glitched,
so if I'm gone, you're

Toby: there.

Kurt: I'm here.

Good.

So, he starts rebuilding this thing,
but using all ai and he puts in the

article, I was flying, everything
was coming together, things were

working, you know, and then there
was a little problem here and he went

to fix it and it, and it fixed it.

But then it, another problem over
here and the, and then he starts

playing Whack-a-mole in this thing,

Toby: Uhhuh.

Kurt: And then by his own account, he
says, I had to make the recogni, the

recognition that I am a developer.

I am a coder.

So I had to start looking at
things that I had to greenlit,

you know, through this process.

And he said that's when
the nightmare started.

He was like.

There were, there were folders inside
certain packets that had like, not

the identical name, but a similar
name, and they did the same functions.

He said that AI had built for him
this thing, but he, he compared it

to like, maybe he's, maybe he's the,
the lead coder on the project and

he's got eight to 10 junior coders
underneath him, and he said it was like.

You locked all the coders in
soundproof rooms by themselves

instead of like in a cubicle farm.

Mm-hmm.

Where they could talk to each other.

Yeah.

He said nothing related
to the other thing.

And even though it forcibly performed a
function, it didn't do it effectively.

And he had a lot of like, just
like code burden, like there

was just junk everywhere.

And he said, so.

because I didn't just trash it, but I'm
reworking it now from the perspective of

it's not about saving time, it's about
doing it right and it's about having

a quality product and something that
your customers will enjoy downstream.

Because if you have AI build
all that stuff, and it's, this

is where I'm just in my head.

'cause we, we talked about this
very slightly an episode or two

ago about AI and, and this thing
with customers thinking, I'll

just have AI make me a plugin.

Who updates that, who, who comes along
and says, let me fix that for you.

Or, 'cause people think it's easy.

Like now, you know, in the day
of like, this is WordPress 6.8,

great, you're on WordPress 6.8,

you've made a plugin.

Boom.

WordPress 9.0

rolls out in 2027 and all of a
sudden your website gives you a big

white screen, says critical error.

What are you gonna do?

Just turn off your custom cool plugin
or try and hire a guy like me to fix it.

'cause I don't wanna fix it.

Toby: Right.

Well, yeah, and I think there's
another piece that it's like, I.

Just some kind of like, like, cowboy
mentality, if that makes sense.

Like, so there's a guy at that meetup
that was claimed to have been doing

a million in recurring revenue on
a platform he built with no code.

He has no idea what's server it's on.

But he is making a million bucks a month.

He says, you know, maybe
he is, but like, I'm like.

Does this seem weird to anybody?

Like is, are any alarm bells going off?

Kurt: Well, I don't think there are alarm
bells going off in some of these circles,

and that's, that's kind of where I get, I.

When AI was first rolling out the
way that we think of it now, a

couple years ago, you know, when I
was on different shows and stuff, I

wasn't like a say no to AI person.

I was like, be curious,
like be a be AI curious.

Go figure things, things out.

Go use it.

Play with it.

You know, I recently signed up for
a Magi account that combines it.

A ton of different AI tools together,
and I get to pick and choose what I

wanna play with, and, but I'm using
very specific words like I play with,

I learn about, I, I don't go like
blindly into something and say, build

me something amazing and then put it up
for sale for a hundred dollars a month.

Toby: Yeah, well along those lines.

So I got curious over the weekend.

I built an app.

I have, I have a WordPress plugin right
now that is a music library of stuff.

I was like, I'm gonna port,
I'm gonna try to rebuild this

as a headless WordPress thing.

and it, I'm like, seven hours in
and it's partially functional.

Was not easy to get it to this point,
and it made me think, I betcha I would

be much further along if I had just said.

Forget WordPress.

Just build me an app on whatever
technology you want, add stripe to it.

you know, like partition it,
multi-tenant, you know, blah, blah, blah.

I, who knows, maybe I would
have a fully functioning app.

It was the tying back to WordPress
that was slowing me down.

And by the way, AI was not very helpful
with getting that connection going.

So I had a, a window open with chat.

GPT.

And then the window opened with Versel
and, I'm, so, I would like go to chat pt.

I'm like, Versal said this.

What do you think's going
on with my WordPress site?

And I asked, because Versal
doesn't know WordPress.

I guess I was asking it stuff.

And it's like, no, I don't know WordPress.

Like,

Kurt: that is a

Toby: bummer.

Yeah.

anyway, that's where I'm at with no code.

it was fun.

maybe I'll, but yeah, the question
would be like, should I just.

Build the app with Versal and then
port my data, make an Im use Versal

to create an import function.

Kurt: Like, well, but that takes us
to another kind of another one of

your big questions in our notes, and
that is, you know, you would asked

about our live WordPress meetups dead.

Toby: Yeah.

Kurt: And then I start to think about.

Live WordPress meetups.

My last few live WordPress meetups, I
run the one here in Hutchinson, Kansas.

So ours just started.

So, you know, I know you, you made
a note about one just dying and

it's like, oh, I see 'em coming
and going, coming and going.

But I started the one in Hutchinson
just over a year ago, and the

last couple of meetups that we had
very, very light on attendance.

but I'm thinking back
to the people that came.

And so like six months ago, a girl from
high school came and she's like, I'm

not really into this WordPress thing.

I like to code.

na: And

Kurt: I was like, you code what?

I don't know.

We just do coding.

Like, okay, you're out.

I can't talk to you.

and then my last couple of meetups have,
I've had people on this topic of ai.

Oh, I just want the computer to do this.

I want the computer to do that.

I, how's WordPress gonna
help me to do that with ai?

And I'm like, why is AI your linchpin?

Why?

Why do you think AI is the solution
for you considering you don't

have an online business yet?

Like AI is not gonna run your
food truck for you, right?

You're still gonna have
to cook the sandwiches.

So I, I just.

The, the impression, the branding, the
media is pushing AI in this weird way

that people outside the industry are
coming in with these very strange notions

about what they're gonna accomplish.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And so is, is, what are your
thoughts on the live WordPress meetups

and then based on the experience
I've just had, do you think they're

gonna morph and change into more
of these generalist conversations?

Or do you think we're gonna end up
playing gatekeeper and telling people

that WordPress is WordPress and
you should leave some stuff alone?

Toby: Yeah, I've been wondering that.

I think so.

When I went to this meetup for the
No code, one thing stood out to me.

There's an energy in it that doesn't
exist in the WordPress meetup.

Yeah.

In the sense like, this is new and
interesting and let's see what craziness,

crazy things we can build today.

Why don't we do a meetup next
week where we all build something

awesome and launch it, you know?

And.

That's the energy we had at
WordPress meetups 15 years ago.

Yeah.

yeah,

Kurt: that's back when you said,
Hey, let's build a, let's build

a website for a food truck.

Everybody went, that would be a right.

Yeah.

And now you're like, Hey, let's
build a website for a food truck.

And they're like.

Yeah, there's lots of food trucks.

Toby: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, and it's, it's like, like if
someone was like, let's, let's say,

let's talk about Microsoft Windows.

It has that like, yeah, why would
we talk about Microsoft Windows?

Everybody uses it.

Like, have you all seen Vista?

right.

So we do have a WordPress Wednesday
meetup that's been going for 15 years

now, and that's, we meet up for coworking.

There's no agenda.

We go to lunch sometimes.

I.

But yeah, I don't, I've been
wondering if like the WordPress

meetups are, are just kind of dead.

at least the local ones.

I did go to Word Camp last year and
I spoke at it in We Minneapolis.

it's hard to say.

I, it's hard.

I'm kind of like, I don't, I was only
there for a short while, so I didn't

get the full, just Do you go to any,
word camps or other meetups or, I.

Kurt: I will tell you, the one
in Phoenix is like off the chain.

Right?

But then you have to get back
to, you gotta put your head

back in the space of reality.

Right?

GoDaddy lives there, right?

And they had all those people, they, I
know they had their big layoffs and all

that stuff after the last one I went to.

So may maybe the energy and the
vibe is gonna be different, but,

you know, GoDaddy's there, all
those people come and, and show up.

What freaked me out about going to the,
to the meetup in Phoenix was it was.

There was a ton of people that were
like, oh, I just have a WordPress

website of my own and I wanted to
see what this was about, you know?

And I was like, that is bizarre.

'cause I didn't think, I didn't
think that's who was coming.

but I ran into a bunch of site owners
that were not WordPress people.

They were, they were site owners.

and I just really felt the vibe
in Phoenix was like tremendous.

na: Mm-hmm.

And

Kurt: then, you know, there's
these, and that's not, I shouldn't

say that's a meetup, right?

That's a word camp.

The Phoenix Word Camp.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: The meetups when I started
doing them on the West coast.

'cause I, I moved to Kansas
recently, but when I was in

California, they're in person.

They were not.

Exciting.

Even the one I went to that had five or
six people show up, it wasn't exciting,

but then they had a virtual one, and
so if they didn't do live, they would

do virtual and then the attendance
would be three times as many people.

But then I start to recognize
some names from some other

meetups that I went to virtually.

And so like there's, there's
a guy that lives in Idaho that

is in the San Francisco meetup,
the San Diego Meetup, the.

Inland Empire Meetup.

You know, he's, he's, he's obviously
attending meetups every day.

but there's, there's a ton of people
like that that go to a bunch of virtual.

WordPress meetups and it gives 'em this
false energy, like it's that region,

but it's not, it's, it's like all
these same 10 people that know each

other that jump on all these calls.

Hmm.

But what I really, really loved
about that particular setup, that

was the Inland Empire one, run
by, various, I think is his name.

And, the people would
come in with websites.

They owned a website, and that meetup
would not stop until they solved

whatever that person's problem was.

I.

It was cool.

Someone would come in like, oh,
I can't get this form to work.

Oh, well, what form tool are you using?

And then 10 people you know
when the space start, you know?

brainstorming this thing
and they would just fix it.

Or my website has a critical error.

Well, what's your host?

Sign in.

Share a screen.

Let's get to work.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and that part was really cool.

Like, that was, that was the
vibe you were talking about.

Like, let's build something.

Yeah.

Like let's build some,
let's fix something.

And it was really cool watching some
seasoned old dudes fix some stuff.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: But I personally think
that these in-person meetups

should be more geared towards.

Almost like recruiting, like recruiting
younger people to the space we're in.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And I kind of struggle
with that, finding these younger,

younger brains, younger minds.

Toby: Oops.

Kurt: It's tough though.

'cause like even in

Toby: the WordPress space, like
seasoned WordPress developers are

like, I'm gonna try, was it flow?

Or whatever the flow.

Web flow.

I'm gonna try like, like
there's not a loyalty that there

used to be like a, you know,

Kurt: well, at the end of the day, and,
and I don't mean to sound like such a

callous jerk, but WordPress is a tool
like for agencies and, and builders.

It's a tool like, so what
tool are you gonna use?

Like, some people use Makita, some
people run down a Harbor Freight,

some people run down to Home Depot and
buy the the blue thing or whatever.

You know what, sometimes, like
you just said, maybe it would be

faster if you didn't use WordPress.

You just used some other platform
and, and built out your idea.

Right.

I will tell you, I got curious.

I loaded up Drupal to see how much
it's changed in the last few years.

I couldn't wait to get out of that screen.

I was like, I'm running back to WordPress.

I don't like this at all.

you know, 'cause I had done Drupal before.

I had done Jula.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: I did one called, It was a Camelback
Live sites by Camelback or something.

All right.

that was, and it did what I
needed it to do at the time.

But you know, I take a look at
these things now, these kind of

sassy kind of platforms, and it's
like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

It's not, it's not hitting the mark.

It's not giving me the freedom
to build what I want to build.

And so I end up back
in the WordPress space.

na: Mm-hmm.

Toby: moving on new this week.

I, I, I'm paying a bunch of money
for our LinkedIn marketing campaign.

na: I'll ask again.

You got, you got me, you got me.

The bait is out.

I'll, I'll, I'll take a, at this hook.

Why, why is he spending a bunch
of money on LinkedIn marketing?

Toby: So, well, I run an agency, you
know, it's, we have, two full-timers

now and five or six contractors.

and I'm not looking to go hockey
stick, you know, but if I can like.

They have a slight bump.

I, I see it.

If I get one or two new
customers a year, I notice it.

and so I'm always trying
to close more deals.

Like my job is basically sales.

and most of our leads
come from SEO these days.

We get some referral, but so I'm always
like listening for opportunities.

And there's a guy in
town here who pitched me.

he built an app probably with no-code as
my 'cause He is part, well, a partner at

the no-code meetup, but he bought an app.

No, he didn't buy an app.

He built an app.

He had a vision for what the app
should do, and I think he built it.

and the way he pitched it is this.

He goes, and this resonated
with me, by the way.

'cause like I.

I mean, how many times have
you been pitched social media

marketing and you're just like,
Ugh, well this is how I respond.

I don't know about you.

Like, no, thank you.

Like, that's my, my gut
reaction is like, no, thank you.

But, and the reason it's no, thank
you is 'cause like the metric

for success for social media
people is imp what's the word?

It's not impressions.

It's something worse than impressions.

Like the conversions.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Way worse than conversions.

There's like conversions, then
impressions, and then like,

like something less than views,
interactions or something.

oh.

But anyway, I'm always like, first of
all, it's like just to climb the social

media ladder, you have to define what
is an interaction, what am I paying for?

I.

So this guy pitches me this LinkedIn
thing, and the gist of it is this.

He's like, look, our goal is gonna be to
get you phone calls with qualified leads.

That's kind of the, the gist, like, so
we're gonna start with the end in mind,

and all it is is building your, He built
a tool that kind of makes this quicker.

But it's all stuff you could
do with the click of the mouse.

But, he basically, right,
let's, right now, let's say I

have 2000 friends on LinkedIn.

He's like, we're gonna try to get
you up to 3000, then 4,000 and

we're gonna start where you live
and we're gonna grow, grow, grow.

And you're gonna annoy the
heck outta some people.

'cause you're gonna be like the,
what the software does, is it like.

Once they say, yeah, let's
connect, it starts sending them my

program of like a series of stuff.

and the goal is to get a phone call
at some point for a sales call.

But, I.

But the idea is once you build
the network, then you start

doing webinars on LinkedIn live.

And so let's say now I have 5,000 people,
the invitations on LinkedIn come into

a, they come in in a different way.

It's not like you're getting
spammed an email, it's just kind

of however it is, it's different.

Yeah.

That's what I'm told.

and the gist of it's, I'm gonna
do the same webinar every week.

For the next 172 weeks.

And, maybe he's, he's
like, look, I've done it.

It works.

You're gonna get five
people at every webinar.

There's gonna be like one person
that attends six in a row, and

then that person will call you and
like, so that's the whole thing.

It's very.

There's nothing tricky about it.

but that's it.

And the goal is to sell.

If I can sell one more a month
on average, like, yeah, exactly.

But to me it made sense.

Like I go compared to all
everything else, I'm being pitched.

I go, eh,

Kurt: seems okay.

It makes sense.

I used a very similar tool.

I was at like 1800 connections on
LinkedIn, and to me, a connection

me, it means I should be connected.

Like I, I, I tend to
overdo everything, right?

So I'm like, let's get down to basics.

So my goal is I want to have.

I wanna have an icebreaker conversation
with everybody I'm connected to.

Like that's my goal.

It's not realistic, but it's my goal.

And so I went through my account and
people that I had connected with that

I never talked to, never interacted
with, never shared a message with.

I just disconnected.

And you know what?

They never missed me anyway.

Right?

So then I drove it down to like
1100 connections or something.

And then I used a tool that would be like,
view their, so search people out by basic

search criteria in that search criteria.

View their profile, like one or two
of their posts, send them a connection

request, send them a message.

to me the key to the messaging in
LinkedIn is to use it like text messaging.

Very brief, very easy and non-salesy.

I don't send them any.

appointment links or
anything like that up front.

I just say, Hey, it's great to connect.

If you're up for an
icebreaker call, let me know.

Boom.

Like, that's it.

And then amazingly, a lot of people
are curious 'cause then they're like,

this guy didn't pitch me a dang thing.

What is he, what, what is this about?

And I tell 'em, I just like to get
to know everybody I'm connected

to and it goes somewhere great.

If it doesn't go
anywhere, that's fine too.

If turns out you have five friends I
should be talking to instead of you.

Just put me in touch
with those five friends.

and that works.

And so I will tell you, I got up to
10,000 connections pretty quick and

that turned into a nightmare, Toby.

So, so I turned everything off for
a long time, and then I had to kinda

let the spam wave die down because my
inbox was full of spam from LinkedIn.

Hmm.

So I had to kind of let
that die down a little bit.

And then I just kind of slowly reengaged
at a, at a much more organic pace.

na: Mm-hmm.

Toby: And, and in terms of slowing down,
was part of it that like you were feeling

like your belly was full of enough work?

Is that kind of like,

Kurt: well, yeah, I wasn't
looking to have a second job.

You know, all these people, you know,
and then the, the pitches, you know,

the 3, 4, 5 paragraphs from strangers,
you know, and I'm just like, delete,

delete, delete, delete, delete.

And then I'm thinking to myself.

I probably reached out to these
people to make a connection.

They think I'm a, a sucker on the line,
so they're sending me all of this content.

And I, I don't want all this content.

I just wanna know if you're a human
being, I wanna chat with or not.

And apparently you're not because
all you wanna do is sell me something

in my dm, so I don't wanna be
a part of your business anyway.

Toby: But this is, I think, may,
maybe there's something here to

we could dive into a little deeper
because, What we're describing is

a sales or a marketing process.

Kurt: Yeah.

Toby: And every marketing process is
gonna have problems that you have to

resolve, whether it's social media,
this, like your, your goal is to

get qualified leads, even if it's
SEO whatever, like you're, although.

In a case like this, we're
gonna, we know we're gonna get

way more spam than not spam.

Yeah.

With LinkedIn or social media or whatever.

and many other thing, my
dad got a death threat once.

'cause he did a robocall.

He was, he did a robocall
to like 10,000 people.

He was like, starts getting
death threats in return.

Return.

One more time.

I'll kill you.

Exactly.

I will come there.

I will chop off your leg.

That I will come after your children,
you know, like, but I think like.

The goal is isn't to like have the most
efficient, this is my opinion, like,

like with a process like this, like let's
say I can figure out how, let's say I

figure out that it's generating leads,
then I have to figure out, okay, I can't

be in my inbox all day, so I might need
to hire someone to like go through my

inbox then, and it becomes more of like.

That's just part of my business process.

Kurt: Yeah, that's, that's virtual
assistant days right there.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Go through these and try and earmark which
ones have the, the earmarks of success

and ones that have the earmarks of doom.

Yep.

And then try to, try
to filter through them.

It, I had so much fun building my, my
LinkedIn up to the 10,000 connections.

I actually made a LinkedIn course.

It's, it's on my website.

I encourage people to check it out,
but it's it was my experience and I

thought, well, if I can go from 2000
to 10,000 connections on, on LinkedIn,

I can show other people how to do it.

But, it's interesting because now you
can go to 30,000 connections on LinkedIn.

That's a pretty cool
thing of that platform.

But I had to really sit back and go, do
I want 30,000 connections on LinkedIn?

the way that I grew my account, this
sounds crazy, but I mean, I have

literally spoken to probably 6,500
or 7,000 of the 10,000 connections.

Toby: Wow.

Kurt: And so it's weird, like if someone
comes to me and says, Hey, so-and-so's

on your list, do you think that's
someone you could introduce me to?

Chances are I've already spoken
to them and I know if they're a

good connection for you or not.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: You know?

Yep.

And I think I told you before, I have
this remarkable tablet, but yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I take every, every meeting
I have, I take notes.

And so if I met with that
person, their name's in there.

So even if it's like, I didn't
remember their name right.

But if you say, oh, did
you talk to Mark Smith?

I can go Mark Smith, boom.

Mm-hmm.

I say, yep, talk to him.

November, 2023, these were
the things we discussed.

Toby: Yeah.

That's pretty cool.

along those lines.

So, I wanna just kind of, you mentioned
you, you did it, you, you saw an

opportunity to teach a cl you know, you
probably did the work and you're like, I

might as well create a class out of this.

Yeah.

it was successful.

And then that leads me to another
question, similar to the marketing

process, I'm curious about.

Another marketing process,
which is getting speaking gigs.

Yeah.

preferably in person, in town.

but you mentioned a class.

Have you pursued, you know, you could
do, like, LinkedIn now has classes,

LinkedIn learning and apparently a friend
told me like, yeah, you can like sign up

and teach a class at LinkedIn Learning.

And I was like, what?

there's Minneapolis.

Minneapolis has community ad and
then, or you can like just spend your

own LinkedIn does live streaming.

Like I'm gonna be doing YouTube.

Have you seen anyone do this or
have you done any of this stuff?

Or you, or, let me ask
the question differently.

Do you ever speak in town, like at a Yes.

How do you get

those

Kurt: gigs?

So let's go one step further.

I wanted to be a speaker before I
wanted to be a WordPress agency owner.

So I paid the money,
I made the investment.

I became a a John Maxwell
certified leadership coach and

trainer, and all those things.

So I got the little piece of paper
that hangs on the wall somewhere.

And, And I really enjoy it.

the thing that I found though is that
paid speaking gigs, you know, the ones

that make mortgage payments and car
payments and things, they're not as easy

to come by as people think they are.

You know, you gotta be really good
looking or really funny or really

popular from some other source.

I think.

So, and I also have this weird
thing where I, I really like to pay

it forward with younger audiences.

And so I really like, like the young,
like the early twenties groups.

I like the, I like the vibe.

So, so I speak at the community
college, the high school here in town.

I have a big background in automotive
and motorcycles and marine.

So I talk at the STEM and CTE programs
at the high school and college.

And then I also volunteer with the
college age group at church just because.

I like to pay it forward that way, but
then you'll hear the, there's a pretty

consistent theme in all of that, and
that is that none of those things really

put money in my bank account, you know?

And so then, I've had a couple, I spoke
for Marine Max, and this is a weird one.

I.

Marine Max is like the biggest
boat retailer in the country.

And they said, Hey, we're gonna be
at the show in Las Vegas and we'd

like to hire you as a speaker.

And then I said, well, okay,
yeah, I charge this much for

a daily rate plus travel.

And they said Sold.

Right.

Which is the sure sign that
that number's way too low.

Mm-hmm.

In the Harley Davidson space, I know
of one guy, he charges $10,000 a day

plus travel and he gets two suites
on the top floor of every hotel.

He stays in one for him
and one for his wife.

And they continue to hire him to do that.

And I think to myself, he
can't be that good at it.

when I worked for another company
in the power sports world, you

guys could look at my LinkedIn
to figure out who this might be.

Here I was a certified speaker on staff
in leadership and they hired some lady

and paid her 10 grand for the afternoon
to come and talk to us about leadership.

And I was like, hello,
you pay me a salary.

I work here.

I could run this workshop.

I.

But these big companies, they
wanna bring in a strange face.

They, they want to, they want
to pass the liability off.

They don't want someone
internal to do things.

And so that was hard for
me to come to grips with.

So then I had to come down to,
well then how do I market myself?

I put myself down as a speaker
on my personal website.

I joined a thing called Gig Salad,
which helps you find speaking gigs.

But I think Toby, I, people are
gonna tell me my answer's wrong,

but I think you still need.

Like a Gary Vaynerchuk would say, you
need to put your best stuff out first,

free and get a couple of samples and, and
get a couple of, a couple of recordings.

Couple, couple, live action
photos from, from an event.

And then you got something to market.

you didn't mention book, write a book.

Oh, I did write books, but that's,
so I wrote a book on leadership ta

and I wrote a book on, how to run
a better service department in the

automotive and power sports space.

That book is what changed
the total direction of the

success I had in the space.

But that's, I didn't go to college so.

Like, some people could say,
you know, well, I graduated from

Yale, or I graduated from Harvard
and I did this and I did that.

Well, I, I don't have that to say so,
so now I say, well, after I published

that book in the automotive space, then
people go, he published a book, right?

He's so smart.

And then, two things, and, and
these are like secrets I tell people

all the time, it's not a secret.

as soon as you publish a book, people
stop asking where you went to school.

The other thing is, as soon as you.

Start your own agency or
start your own business.

Nobody cares about where you went
to school or how you got trained.

All they care about is what
services can you provide.

Will it be done on time
and how much will it cost?

Nobody.

After I started Manano Nomas,
nobody has ever asked me, how did

you train yourself to do all this?

Like, right, doesn't matter.

This is what I do.

This is how long it's gonna take,
it's how much it's gonna cost you.

And no one's asked me about
backing that up since, so maybe

that's why those no-code SAS
guys get ahead because they go.

Yeah, you got a pain point.

I got a solution.

It's gonna cost you this much.

Toby: It's an interesting thought.

I mean it is, particularly
if you're new to coding.

'cause there's a lot of fear right now
that you're not gonna have a job coding.

Yeah.

Your job might be knowing the AI
marketplace, like we use Elle for this.

They put the database here and da da.

Kurt: I think there's gonna be
a big future for experienced

people in debugging, coding.

Toby: Yeah.

Well that, so I think earlier you're
like, who's gonna do the work?

Whoever has the skills and
is willing or maybe, yeah.

I like, I.

I, AI is so bad at that thing
you talked about earlier, like,

yeah, now we have three folders.

They all do the same thing.

Like that's what AI does for you.

Like in addition to making a
fully functioning app, it just

builds all this crap with it.

yeah.

And you to date it, I mean.

The, like I said, I just built
something the other day and

here's where it got caught up.

It had like a mostly functioning,
finally I got it pulling in the

rest API from a headless WordPress.

And then I was like,
okay, add a search box.

And it like went berserk, broke
it, and I went through like 10

iterations trying to fix it.

And finally I was like, just
roll back to 10 versions ago.

'cause we're not gonna do a search today.

Kurt: Yeah, yeah.

I'll forego that one this time.

But that, I find that
so interesting because.

Just this week I was
in a client's website.

Now I didn't build it.

I did not build it.

I'm just a consultant helping them get to
the, to the launchpad and they said, well,

hey, and they're using the Elementor Hello
theme, which is not my theme of choice.

I'm not saying it's bad, I just
don't have a lot of experience.

It's the most

Toby: popular theme in wordpress.org.

Kurt: Yeah.

I don't, I don't have, I don't have
anything negative to say about it.

Mm-hmm.

I'm just not super familiar with it.

And they said, Hey.

when Lifter LMS shows this course card,
it has all this information on here.

We don't want all this
information on here.

We wanna take this thing out.

And I was like, well,
that's not really an option.

There's no tick box for that, but we
could get rid of that with custom CSS.

And they're like, say no more.

Have at it.

And I was like, I.

Okay.

And I'm thinking probably
take you 20 minutes.

dude, I'm, I'm so embarrassed.

I was like, display.

None this, Nope.

Display none.

Not sure that display none.

Yeah.

Let try this class name.

And I was trying everything
that I could think of.

And it wasn't working.

It wasn't working.

It wasn't working.

And then.

I tried, oh, let's, let's try this.

I think they call 'em variables,
but I called it important, you know?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Because I kept looking at the code
and the chrome inspector and I'm

going, it keeps saying, like, when I
say display none, it keeps crossing

it out like I'm not doing it.

Yep.

I'm like, I'm telling you to do it.

I am telling you to do this.

And, it took a lot more than 20 minutes
Uhhuh, and I couldn't charge her the 20.

Right.

I couldn't charge her my real time.

Newsflash for people that are listening.

you shouldn't charge your customers for
the time that you are educating yourself.

At least I don't think so.

so I charge like real time, right?

But now I'm like, now I'm going negative.

Right now I'm going negative,
trying to figure this thing out.

So I put in the, the important and
all of a sudden one thing went away,

but the other thing didn't go away.

But they didn't really care about the
other thing, so I was like, good enough.

Right, right.

Good enough.

Boom.

we're done here.

But that's like, I.

Here we are talking about AI
and no code and, and like I'm

not a coding genius, right?

I'm jumping into someone else's website.

Some, something someone else built.

I got a theme I'm not familiar with.

I'm trying all the tricks I
do with Sky Pilot and with

bricks and with, and nothing.

I'm putting in works and I don't
know why the theme's disregarding

everything I'm saying to do.

And I go, you know, exclamation
point important and then it boom.

It works.

how many people are
gonna know that, right?

Or how many people are gonna go into
AI and say, give me some custom CSS

to make this disappear from my screen.

And then it's gonna say, put this in.

Well, that's not gonna work.

Okay, well then put this in.

Right?

Yeah.

It's not gonna work.

Toby: Something, something funny
that we, we were talking about, I

was talking with someone about ai.

even if, it gives you the, like,
it won't get, it won't say no.

And this is the problem.

It'll, it'll make It's the hallucination.

Yeah.

It, yeah.

It'll, you're like, it, like, Hey,
can I, can you fix this for me?

It'll say, sure.

Do this, and, and it, you'll do that.

And it'll be like, it didn't work.

And they'll say, oh, sorry.

Yeah.

That's right.

That's wrong.

Here.

Do this.

It, it's incapable of saying no.

Like, yeah.

Kurt: Well, it does say no
when you ask it questions.

It doesn't want to answer by the code.

For code.

It's always gonna say, it's always
gonna say, yeah, I can fix that for you.

Toby: Right.

Kurt: And then.

It's not fixing it for you.

Right.

I've been through this so many times
now with, with clients and you know,

in a way it's kind of cool 'cause
they always gotta come back to you

and go, oh, I tried this on my own.

It's not working.

Uhhuh, can you fix this?

And we go, yeah, we can fix that for you.

But then you have to ask yourself,
you know, why didn't they just

come to me in the first place,
even if they're not my client.

I think that, like I'm
on the show with you.

I do a show with Lifter, LMS,
I do a show with WP Tonic.

I have my own podcast called Manana.

Nomas.

Like people know who I am.

So why did you try 17 other choices
before ringing me up or sending

me an email asking for help?

And it's 'cause they assume
I'm at like $600 an hour for

an agency rate or something.

Right.

And it's just not true.

'cause you and I both know we, you and
I, we can't run our agencies at those

rates and think we're gonna keep clients.

Toby: Right?

Yep.

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's probably true.

yeah, if they thought it was cheap,
they probably would've called you.

Or if they thought it was not cheap,
cheap, iss probably the wrong word.

If they thought it was gonna be
a couple hundred or even 300,

maybe they would've called you.

Kurt: Yeah.

If it was gonna be affordable,
you know, if it was gonna be

within a, within a budget concept.

And I think, I think in some cases,
because of being online all the time,

being live all the time, I think that.

Sometimes heightens the expectation
that, oh, he's gonna be super

expensive, or we can't afford that.

no.

It's like, it's like everyone assumes
Codeable is gonna be expensive,

but then you go to Codeable and
they're like, Hey, we get three bids.

You get the average of the three bids.

It is what it is, and it comes out to
like $80 an hour to have something done.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It's, that's a smoking hot deal.

Jump on there, get something handled.

Toby: Is co ball still hiring?

Last I, last I checked.

They weren't doing, they weren't
accepting new applicants.

Do you know?

Kurt: I don't think they're hiring.

I think they have, I think they
have all the people they need.

Toby: Yeah, that's what I thought.

Because that's, that's a pla.

Yeah.

You go and you.

Say, Hey, build this for me.

And then they have a team
of freelancers, right?

Kurt: Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, it's like a blind audition.

Mm-hmm.

People bid on the task.

Mm-hmm.

And they put a dollar amount in there, and
then it averages the bid amount out, and

then whoever, then you choose it, right.

Based on this is the set fee based
out of these three sources, and then

you pick the source and they do it
for the fee that was the average.

Toby: Hmm.

I actually think, If you're getting
started in the industry, and maybe

it's an avenue for me to pursue
too, but like, Upwork or, you know,

there's all these places where like
people go to buy the work and like,

I'm just thinking out loud here.

So, let's say I did a project that was.

Relatively easy on Upwork, and I
got underpaid for it, but it led

to a hosting contract or something.

Like I could see that work,
math working out potentially.

You know,

Kurt: there's so many of those things,
so, so there used to be one called

e Lance and then Freelance, and then
Upwork and Fiverr and all those.

And generally Upwork and Fiverr seem
to be these markets that are just.

Driving to the bottom right?

Mm-hmm.

Just a race to the bottom.

They want a task done, and it's the
cheapest one is gonna get the bid.

and I really don't like
to play in those markets.

I mean, I just don't because it, it
just doesn't f the mentality of the

client doesn't fit the mentality,
what I'm looking for as an agency.

So I kind of try and stay away from that.

But, I've also noticed.

So I had a client I was doing a
big project for, and they were

supposed to supply a ton of content.

And I said, okay, great.

You know, so where's this content at?

'cause I've built it.

So where's your content?

And the content wasn't coming.

Wasn't coming, wasn't coming.

And finally I was like,
you said you had content.

Where's your content?

Like I was, you know, you,
because everything I do that's,

you said it based on a calendar.

You know, I, I tell
people we have deadlines.

I have a deadline.

And newsflash, you have a deadline.

You're the customer, but
you still have a deadline.

Yep.

And, They were way, and they, then
they finally confessed, oh, I've got

this person, you know, writing the
course for me that I hired from Fiverr.

And when I got, it was a series of
PDFs they wanted me to put into their

website as as courses and lessons.

I said, I can't even put
this stuff on your website.

I, in good conscience, I can't do this.

I've already edited for free
the first three lessons I said,

but this content is so poor.

Yeah, unless you're paying me, I cannot
continue to edit this work, but I

cannot put my name on this anywhere.

Like you, I can't have website powered by
Ana Nomas or any of that on your project

because yeah, this content is so horrible.

It's interesting.

Toby: so I'm selling, our house,
and I'm working with a realtor.

And they had me fill out a Google
form that was like, tell us about

your, your house and your experience
in your house, and dah, dah, dah.

So I filled it out, took
like five or 10 minutes.

and then the next day they sent me
something that was so clearly chat,

GPT, like just this garbage writeup.

I.

Kurt: You're like, thank you.

I don't want to use you anymore.

Toby: well, I'm already on the
hook, but like, but I got it.

I had to write it.

I went back to GPT, I was
like, let's rewrite this.

My realtor couldn't
figure it out, you know?

it's

Kurt: hard.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: It's hard.

All right.

So somehow or another we managed
to work AI into just about every

segment of our, of our talk today.

Like,

Toby: like Matt Mullenweg said,

what's the future of WordPress ai?

Kurt: I guess we're gonna
have to figure it out.

Toby: Yeah,

Kurt: we're gonna have to figure it out.

Anything else?

no.

Thank you so much time.

Yeah.

So we're gonna have to wrap this one
up and we're gonna have to save our

talk about manage WP for another day.

I think.

Toby: I think you're right.

Which like,

Kurt: that's the cliffhanger that gets
people to come back to another episode.

Toby: We have a whole bit.

the question is, is managed WP dying?

For next time.

Kurt: Peace out folks.

I'm Kurt.

This is Toby.

Have yourselves a
wonderful, wonderful day.

We'll see you in the next episode.