The WP Minute+

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019:
welcome to the WP Minute.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Ministry.

Thank you so much, Matt.

It's my pleasure to be here.

The

pleasure's all on this side of
the table, just so you know.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: we

were just chatting before we

hit record.

apparently we met at Prestige
Comp, which happened eons ago.

So you've been in this
game for quite a while.

so for folks that don't know, what
is it that you do in WordPress?

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: yeah, I've
been in it for 20 years, I think now.

I think WordPress is 21 years
old or something like that.

but I, I run an agency
called the Mighty Mo.

Been doing it 18 years at
the Mighty Mo WordPress.

For the first few days we
were doing flash and I.

About one month into the Mighty Mo, Steve
Jobs came out and said, flash is dead.

And so I'm like, okay, flash is dead.

What's next?

So I, started doing WordPress,
right, that I had actually tried

Jula and Drupal on, dream Hosts
one click install at that time.

And I couldn't figure it out.

I was not like a trained coder by
any means, but I knew like HTML and

FTP and I knew Flash, but WordPress,
I could get going and then like.

This is what the amazing thing
about WordPress was to me, was

that like you could go in edit
code, in like your template.

Once you figured out where the theme
was, you could like edit it and see the

change, which was like revolutionary,
you know, like it was so cool.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: I'm looking
at your LinkedIn profile, so the

mighty Moe.

I'm seeing you started out

as developer, then went to
CTO, then went to president.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah.

You know,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: explain

that one to

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018:
there's no explanation.

I've owned the company the whole time.

I think it's been like my
idiot attempt at marketing.

Like, and, so I, I have, there's no
good reason for me to be, I'm, I've, I'm

legally the president of the company,

but, sometimes I've been afraid.

I think like just owning a
business, I'm always afraid of like.

like.

what I'm thinking, like what, when
people talk to somebody, am I better off

being the CEO president or am I better
off being like, no, just talk to me.

I'm a regular marketer guy,
like at the company, and I,

I just like that entry point.

I'm never sure like what's best, you know?

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Oftentimes
it's best not to even tell anybody

what you do in the tech space because
then they start asking you all kinds

of questions to see if you can solve

their pain points.

at least that's what I

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: you fix my wifi

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah.

No, man.

I do

websites and I'm barely str, I'm

barely holding on with that.

I re, we connected because I recently
put out a, a, our weekly newsletter.

And, oftentimes, the WP Minute
newsletter, I'll have like a,

a

little, opening, salvo, a little
personal message and really

starting to get stuck in with ai.

And I'm really starting to wonder
how this is impacting small business.

what I call small business
web design agencies.

You might have a different label for it.

I think there's ultimately two camps.

You are

either deathly afraid of this stuff, or,

or you don't think anything is happening.

At least that's what I see on Twitter.

Either people just brush this off

as like, ah, it's not even really a thing.

Or people are like, oh my God,

we're all gonna lose our jobs.

I'm hoping to be somewhere in the
middle where we can find efficiencies

with this stuff, leverage it,
at least for the next few years.

I,

I don't really have a
crystal ball beyond that.

And I'm curious, your take on
your, you know, two decades in

this space, is it impacting you?

Are you think, how are you thinking about
this impacting your business, if at all?

Where do you sit with AI in your agency?

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: One year
ago I was scared to death, so scared

that I hired a full-time SEO guy
who still works for the Mighty Mo.

But we branched off, we're like,
we're gonna sell marketing services

rather than development services.

'cause I was so scared of ai.

This was a year or so ago and
we've since sold some SEO and we're

kind of, it's been a neat journey.

Like be like, okay, now
we're doing SEO too.

Cool.

but what I've learned, like I've spent.

So here's an example.

I'm building a project management
plugin with ai, with chat

GPT, basically, and co-pilot.

And what I've learned in that is like
AI is a decent, like junior level dev

assistant and like maybe mid-level,
like it can help you, like organize

your thoughts and your code, but
like I'm no longer afraid of it.

Like, so it saved me hundreds of hours
so far on this project, but someone

without deep WordPress knowledge
would've never been able to build this.

Base, pretty basic plugin

that I built with it and you know,

like in a hundred hours time
using AI exclusively, you know,

so I'm no longer afraid of it.

It's changing the industry though,

without a doubt.

Like, and I think too, like,
like it's, I think, well first

of all, I think I adapt or die.

That's, and you know, because you've
been in this so long, I have so much

respect for people like you who've
been in the game any game for 15 years.

You know, you have to adapt.

And

if you don't adapt.

You're gone.

and so yeah, it's changing.

Like I see, like, so I deal with small
businesses and small nonprofits, and I've

done that for 18 years at the Mighty Mo
and we, we are losing very new businesses.

To AI and Wix and Squarespace,
without a doubt we're losing them.

like they're no longer calling
me to build their sites.

And when I talk to them and I'm like,
yeah, it's gonna be like 10 grand,

they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I was thinking like 300.

And I'm like, well, like we're
not a great fit, probably.

and so that's a common conversation
with, you know, incoming leads.

But the people who, still wanna
hire us, if you picture this,

like let's say you're a marketing.

Mid-level marketing manager at
a small to mid-size company.

So you're an employee and you're
gonna put your career on the line.

You're gonna hand your career
to someone like me or to ai.

The problem with this is if you hand it to
me and you pay more, but like I'm now the.

The, if I screw up, I'm the fault.

I'm at fault, not you.

If you hire AI to do it and they screw up,
you're at fault as the marketing manager.

And so like, I think like these,
there's like a very human thing,

like these mid-level people who work
at the employees part of their game

is like offshoring risk to others.

So they

can survive in that role and get promoted.

And like AI does not,
is not good for them.

You know?

'cause then they're putting
their butts on the line.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, I, you
know, ever since I started podcasting,

when I ran my agency, it was to learn
how to run an agency and quite literally

see, you know, what the market was doing.

Like understand how people were
selling sites and you know, what

the, what the landscape looked like.

The thing back then, when I was, when I

started the mat report, whatever,
15 years ago, it was, oh, what

are we gonna do about the $500 website?

Right.

That was like a question that I had on
repeat on a lot of my, podcast episodes.

'cause you know, that was the thing,
like when I started my agency, people

would come to me like, I got 500 bucks.

I'm like, 500 bucks.

Like, what's happening here?

Like, what do you

expect to do?

And you know, fast forward 20 years later,

it's

almost like the same concern.

you know, so it's like
we've seen this hype cycle

come around, right?

Small budgets.

Then theme forest people are like,
oh, I could just buy a theme.

You can't do it for a few hundred bucks.

And then the the adoption or the
rise of like, say like Elementor

beaver builder Divvy, and people are
like, oh, we got this page builder.

Like, can't you do it for 300?

But now it's like, we've got ai, can't

you just do it

for 300 bucks?

So

I'm trying to temper that expectation.

Maybe an expectation is the wrong
word, but I'm trying to temper

like

this outlook for

ai.

Like, okay.

Let's all just exhale for

a second.

I think professional services is
still a thing and what it might do is

maybe bring down the real high end.

I.

To us, you know, the Tobys and the mats
of the world who are running just a good

solid small business web design agency.

Right?

Maybe, you know, our friends
at the higher end might see

a, a bit of a hit,

and those bigger

brands might reach out to
you and I or those of us

listening, going, you know what?

We've got a, we've got
a big budget for you.

Small budget for us.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah.

Yeah.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019:
Let's work together.

have you seen any of the market shift?

It sounds like the entry level
is shifting, but have you seen

any of the higher end of the
market shift to your favor?

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah.

So at least one of your podcast guests
who owned a big agency in Minneapolis has

gone through this, and I know this because
I know some of the people work there

and I worked with another agency in town
who was getting these high level, you

know, I was collaborating on, on big.

Corporate clients

with them.

And I know for a fact that they, both
these companies are, who are like in

my way, getting way bigger fish than
I could ever get and I ever wanna get

maybe, but like they are firing people.

Like they're, they're, and I, that's
how I know they're getting squeezed

because, and my, my hunch is that like.

A lot of the work that these
high-end companies do is

prototyping, like prototyping.

Hey, we have an I, like, you know,
I'm Target Corp and I have this

idea, can you build something for us?

And you have a lot of con and now
they just go to like potentially, I

mean, I could see a scenario where to
prototype, just like, let's say give

a small team at Target, like you guys
go to this AI tool and build something

in the next six weeks or whatever.

Like.

To me that seems really reasonable.

Like from Target's perspective, and then

you bring that to the agency, maybe.

yeah,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah,

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: but the, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Toby's
saying Target, 'cause target's

pretty big in Minneapolis, right?

Yeah.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah.

They're the biggest.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah,
I remember at Prestige Comp, it's

also very cold where you are and

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: it's cold

right here.

Where I'm at right now.

I'm in the basement.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: and
I remember walking around and

you have a just Skywalks, right?

Is that what it's

called?

And they're just skyways
and they're connected.

they connect to all these buildings

downtown.

And I remember, being like, ah,
I need to, I need to, work out,

but I, I forgot my gym clothes.

And somebody was like, oh, there's
a target right across the way.

Just walk over here, you know, take a
left, do a right, go down these stairs.

And I did that.

And I'm walking around, I'm like.

It says Target,

but what's up with all these

offices?

It's like, where's the store?

Right.

And it was just like the
corporate headquarters.

And I'm like, and they're like, oh no,
the, the, the, the store's down, down the

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yep.

Uhhuh.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: so
it's deeply rooted down there.

I've

been practicing and demonstrating
the power of something that you

just said, which was, prototyping.

And this is where I see the advantage of.

AI

for WordPress, at least now
in the, in the short term, is

to build on top of WordPress.

So I recently did a video of just
building with Bolt, something that

connect your traditional headless
WordPress, something that folks would've

knocked on our doors.

10, 15 years ago to say, please
build this headless WordPress.

The budget's 50 grand or a hundred grand.

Can you do it?

I did it in minutes with Bolt building
a React app and just leveraging

the wonderful WordPress rest API.

I'm not a developer, I'm
just a power user, right?

I kind of know the stuff, so I know
what to ask for, and I was like,

man, this is really powerful and.

The positive side of me is looking
at WordPress going, there's

definitely an advantage

here.

WordPress is

great for publishing.

Whether you agree with Gutenberg or not,

it's still a great publishing platform.

And now with ai, we can build stuff on
top of it to extract that data, right?

Build those apps we've always wanted to
build, but have WordPress as the backend.

Do you have any future?

Forward, thinking about those
opportunities with WordPress

that aren't websites like something

else we can do.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Well,
yeah, I mean, I told you I'm

building this project management app

for one, but, so I've built it with
all, with core WordPress functionality.

No, no React, no modules,
nothing like that.

It's just, just straight up, you
know, API, not even a, not even the

W-P-A-P-I, we're talking a plugin and
a theme and, I think that, and I'm

planning on releasing it as a SaaS,

like on top of WordPress.

Running a plugin and theme
in some sort of, you know,

multi-tenant, blah, blah, blah.

but I just, I think like when
you think of WordPress, headless,

I mean, endless possibilities.

Think of this like I
was thinking today, I.

The WordPress dashboard is so confusing.

Onboarding is so confusing, and I
submitted a ticket to WordPress core,

three years ago to add a button.

So you go to post, you can add new pages,
add new, I wanted a a, a menu add new.

And I've submitted a
ticket earlier this week.

I got a reply saying it's been
merged into another ticket.

I go, great, something's happening.

I go to that ticket, 11 years old,

and it's, and there's been
no conversation for 11 years.

And I'm going, this is just
an add new menu button.

And so

like, if you think of this
WordPress dashboard, so confusing.

I go in there, I'm in there hours
every day and sometimes I have

trouble finding the plugins menu
on the left side because I'm like.

Gosh darn it.

Where is the plugins on this site?

'cause like it's pushed up or down and
there's colorful depending on the site.

So like, I'm just thinking
like, let's just say you wanted

to attack Wix or wordpress.com

as like a SaaS app,

like endless possibilities

like just headless WordPress.

Yeah, we're just gonna
build a way better ui.

And maybe it's less feature rich,
but it's like way better like,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, I wonder,
you know, Matt Mullenweg has often

said, or at least a few times, said that
he's always seen Gutenberg as a bigger

open source project than WordPress.

And even

with the temperature of WordPress, in
the room these days, and, you know,

some of the Matt Mullens decisions, I, I

am still trying to unpack that because
I think for one thing, like a lot of

the things he says as say positive, um.

outlooks for WordPress.

I,

he's always pro, like I, when he says
those things, he's always projecting.

So like,

WordPress has the

operating system of
the web, which he said,

you know, many, many, many years ago.

Like, I think we're finally
kind of maybe seeing that.

And

then when he said, Gutenberg as a bigger
project than WordPress, I was like,

how?

In the back of my head, I'm like,

why, how do you think of that?

But now maybe with like
AI and what WordPress

might morph into, which

is like.

Just a database of content
that you can publish in.

I'm like, well, maybe he's
onto something with a Gutenberg

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Can
I, can I just weigh in there?

Because, Matt's been an
inspiration to me personally.

I've never met Matt.

I've worked directly for
Matt, but I've never met him

and so I, I've only interacted
with him I think twice in my life,

but I followed him and he's been
an inspir inspiration for me.

I started out, when I came to moved
to Minneapolis in 2003, I stumbled

into WordPress that led me to the open
source community, and Matt was truly

a leader of the open source community
back then and probably still is today.

What I think Matt.

He's been inspiring to the
community too, like whether or not

you, like Gutenberg or whatever.

That was like a, a tipping point
where a lot of people got excited

and a lot of people got pissed.

But I was, I go, great, you
have a vision, let's go.

I, a couple weeks ago or months ago, he
was at, I think Word, word Camp Japan.

And somebody in the audience was like,
Hey, what's the future WordPress?

And he, his response
was, it was really flip.

It was just like, oh, ai.

And I'm like, that's not a.

Anything to grab that's not inspiring.

It's not interesting.

It's not a feature.

It's not like I would've loved for
him to be like, we're gonna make it so

you can click any block in WordPress
and use AI to generate content.

Like something like that
would be really interesting.

Like,

and I just think that right
now, like you just described,

a future of WordPress that is.

One possible future of many,
but there's no clear direction.

Everybody has a different direction.

Like juiced is forming this new
nonprofit thing, and I'm going like,

this isn't a direction for WordPress.

This is like something nobody who uses
Word, like no end user cares about

your like nonprofit or organization
that's gonna govern WordPress.

Nobody cares about that out in the wild.

Like, you know, people like
you and me might care about it,

but.

When Matt did the, breaking changes for
WordPress, really with the Gutenberg

editor, I go, that's a vision.

At

least, you know, and, he, and and
by the way, he did that years ago,

probably when you were getting started
with the, the update to the dashboard

when they moved the navigation
from the top to the left side.

And,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: there's

been other things in there
like, auto push updates.

Like, I feel like anytime you have
friction, you know, you're like, at least

you're onto something with some meat.

Like,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah, yeah,

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018:
it comes to features mm-hmm.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, I
mean, you know, my feedback with that,

like anything where the, where the
real issues are just human issues.

It's not the software or the feature.

It's that nobody will take charge to make
a decision, like we have to move forward.

So.

Somebody has

to make a decision.

And

obviously

we.

all thought the
organization was structured

slightly different, than what has been
exposed through all of this stuff.

and up, but up until that point, you're,
you're thinking like, okay, well who

else is gonna move this thing forward?

On one hand, we can't say things like

Wix and Squarespace and all these other

platforms,

Webflow are eating WordPress' lunch

and be upset about that, but then on

the other hand, do nothing about it.

Right.

And then just like drill into a
more, you know, developer focused,

you know, sort of mindset.

Like,

oh, we don't need all these tools.

We, I

mean, God, you and I heard this when.

Same thing when like you saw a theme
forest or you saw page builders.

You're like, nobody wants

this stuff.

This is all done wrong.

This is not how you build a website.

and then literally it's how you build a

website,

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I, yeah.

Yeah, that's a great analogy.

'cause I actually see AI as comparable
to theme builders like Beaver Builder

Elementor, because it.

Immensely changed our workflows,
but in some ways it made us more

valuable as developers, like at
the same time, because anytime end

users get confused, I see dollar

signs, like, you know, like, and
you know, and AI is just a tool

that we're gonna use and
it's gonna change things.

but a, we, you know, AI
needs us more than we know.

We need.

AI needs us more than we need ai.

And, we're, and so like, as
long as you're willing to like.

Figure it out as a business owner
and, you know, get a little lucky,

hopefully with the direction you go,
you know, I think we'll be all right.

You know.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: So, aside
from the project that you're working

on, well, let me take a step back.

What's, what's the size of your agency?

How many folks work with you?

How

many contractors?

How do you structure the agency?

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah, and
that's another thing, like we've grown

and I wanna say 2015, I had a CEO and

I.

had like, I dunno, five or six or eight
full-time employees, something in there.

Now I scaled back for
a number of years here.

I was like just me.

Then it was me and one other
developer, and then it was me and

a SEO guy relatively recently.

In January, I hired six part-timers.

'cause I'm like, I'm getting,
I don't wanna be the main

point of contact every time.

And so I hired a bunch of people to kind
of just, so I hired a project manager who

is just, I mean, I, I can't, I don't know
if everybody's gonna get this lucky, but.

To me, the project manager has the, the
work that she's doing is changing my

business, like in really profound ways.

and, and I'm seeing able to see
opportunities that I didn't see before.

And this is just since January.

And just, the talents and skills and

just efficiencies and whatever.

what was the

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: project, man.

I, I remember the project
manager role at my agency

being one of like the hardest, at the, at
the stage of the business that we were at.

Again, this is a different era
of like building websites, but

like that.

Investment was hard

because it was like, oh wait, wait.

We should really be hiring another
developer or another designer

like, 'cause then we can do

more projects.

But then the bottleneck was always

either myself or I ran
the agency with my father.

So

it was either ahead time or my time.

And what were we doing instead of
selling, we were managing the projects.

But it was one of those

really difficult decisions

like bring somebody on board that isn't

immediately a billable.

You know, a billable, role, more of like
that management role, but wow, once you

had the person in place and they were up
to speed, it was just infinitely better.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Well, let
me ask you, 'cause a few podcasts ago,

you, you had, reminisced about when
you brought on, so project manager's

one thing, but you brought, said,
you brought, it seemed like you said

you brought on an account manager and

that's really scary for me right now.

Like, how did that work?

You know, tell me a little bit about that.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: He was
a, he was multifaceted, Dan, so he

was a project manager, but then he
would also, you know, because we were

a four five

person shop and servicing mostly small
businesses at the time, you know, so

your margins were very thin as, you know,
with like payroll and all this stuff.

so then e eventually

what as.

He got better in, in the role
and we understood the projects

that we were, we were delivering.

he would also go back to the
customer and say like, Hey, it's

been a year since we've chatted.

you're on our monthly maintenance

and, and, support plan.

Like, What else

can we do for you?

Right.

So it was just like a
very incremental thing.

you know, but

it's a, it's a utility person and it's
very hard to find, It's very hard to

find that role in, I guess, any business

where you can also like think as a
founder, and understand, you know,

what the client needs at the same time,
and then get this technology thing.

I mean, you don't have to be deep
in any of it, but you just have

to understand that world and that
what makes, that's what makes

a great project manager or slash

ae.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I.

think too, like all this, you know,
when you're running a business, every

hire should point to more money.

Like at the end of the day,

like in theory, one thing that was mind
blowing when I hired my project manager,

so I was doing the work and I would
do so much, so many favor, not favors,

but yeah, you're an existing customer.

Sure.

I'll just do that.

I'll take me five, 10 minutes.

No, you know, I wouldn't charge.

Once the, the project manager came on,
she's like, so they want this work?

What do you want a bill for it?

I was like, what?

Oh crap.

And

so like, she's basically
paying for herself, but just

by asking that question continually,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: That's
an under that, that's something

that goes under the radar.

And I tell this to a lot of, You
know, freelancer friends that

have reached out and they're like,

Hey, just like struggling
to get this business.

And it's like, well, how many websites

have you, you know, launched for clients

and whatever it is, 5, 15, 50.

You simply just have to ask, right?

Because you ship them and then You

think, okay, they're shipped.

Now I I need to go find a new one.

And it's like, well, you don't have to.

You could.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: can

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Make sure
that they're paying you in some consult

consultive, fee, whether you're actually
maintaining their site or you've

got them locked in for a few hours a
month to just talk about their sites.

You should be having those
conversations because the worst thing

not to go on a soapbox, ran because

this is, this is your interview.

but the, but The worst things that
can happen to an agency is when.

That customer.

If, if they're paying you monthly and
you are not talking to them and you're

not reaching out, that's the worst thing.

Because if they're running into an issue
and they're not telling you about it,

the worst thing is, is like they
start asking somebody else, like,

Hey, this guy, we've, we've been
paying Matt a hundred bucks a month,

200 bucks a month, whatever it is.

And I have this freaking problem.

He's never asking me, I don't
know how to talk to him.

I don't know how to explain it.

And then they go and they find somebody
else, and then suddenly you get the,

the phone call or the email like,
Hey, we're canceling the account.

And you're like, whoa, whoa.

What happened?

I thought everything was good.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: yeah.

Well

there's there.

Yeah.

As soon as they talk to someone else,
you can almost guarantee that person's

gonna say, oh, that's way too much.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: correct,

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: No matter what.

Doesn't matter what it was.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: correct.

And you know,

that's an interesting thing because I

think.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I think

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: We,

and

I'm not in the agency game, but
I, I talk to people all the time

about it, but w we have this unfair,
we're in this unfair position where,

just like you said earlier,
Squarespace user says, ah, wasn't

it only 300 bucks to do this?

I think when you think of yourself
as a, as a consumer, and you have

to hire a plumber, a landscaper,
a contractor, whatever it is.

Y you're

exposed to that more often, like
the customer's exposed to that.

Like,

I gotta find somebody local
to come do this thing for me.

And what we, we learn the lesson
of, you get what you pay for a

lot faster in the real world.

Where in the web world, it's only
like, you know, if you're a company,

it's like every maybe three, five
years, you're thinking critically of,

okay,

we gotta redo this website.

So you're not exposed to those
lessons of you get what you pay for.

You just go, we need to do this thing.

It's a task.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Mm-hmm.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019:
Just find the cheapest bid.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Am I crazy
about thinking of it like that?

Like we don't, we just
don't get those reps in with

our customers

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah.

But I,

I,

think there are some customers
that'll never come around to paying.

Like,

that's, that's a fact.

But the ones that learn the lesson,
they touch the stove, they learn it,

they usually make really
good long term customers.

I find, also like there was a, this is
just the more examples of how AI will

not be helpful and how we will still
continue to exist, a few years back.

There's a, a, a, deodorant
company called Lumi Deodorant.

and they have ads on TV now and stuff,
but like there's, they're, operations

officer, CMO came to me, just called
Outta the Blue 'cause I do WordPress.

And they were like, you
know, locally local kind of.

And so they found me.

They called and like I
started helping them.

This is like just an
example of like, again, how.

We're gonna have jobs if we can adapt.

And like, so I just started, they're like,
Hey, we need to like import some users.

I was like, okay, whatever.

They had WooCommerce and bottom line
is like, it ended up being, they

were, it turns out they were just like
having way too many website sales.

Like that

was their problem.

That that and the CEO came to me and
she's like, should we close the site down?

Like it's just a huge headache
and failure and I'm looking at it.

Like, and she didn't have the purview.

I, I mean, she did business wise, but
like, I'm looking at this like, you have

no idea how unique your situation is.

Like, but anyway, bottom line is like AI
would've never, they probably wouldn't.

Right now, they sold for who knows
how much to, the, some huge company,

you know, now they've been bought
and sold a couple at least once.

but like, huge payout for
them at the end of the day.

But like.

AI could not have helped them.

You know, like, and I don't think a big
agency would've been helpful either.

Like, it was just so happened that I was
small enough with a nut of experience.

'cause like I came in at, I wanna say it
was like, for two grand a month, I think

I can help you for the next six months.

And I was way off by that, by the way.

But like a big agency, two grand
is not gonna get you in the door,

you

know?

And so it ended up being, I ended up.

Coming on as CTO after a while and
was just like, we're gonna re, we

need to rethink this whole thing.

and we ended up moving to the Shopify, but
like, I think, I think there's green, you

know, as green pastures as there ever has

been in this crazy world,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, sure.

another lesson that I, I find interesting
that I think, at least from my experience,

interested to hear your experience,
but I think a lot of agencies after

X amount of years, and, and this is
something that evolves, like I think

in the early days you're learning this
every month and then it stretches to

every six months and then every year,
then every other year, and then every

five years and maybe every 10 years.

But you start to learn like a
process of what you can deliver.

Right.

Earlier when

we started the show, you said you focus
on a lot of small business and nonprofits.

I love the nonprofit, vertical
because even that is huge,

like nonprofits for who,
like what are they serving?

Like is it donations?

Like what's it look like?

So I'm curious if you can paint the
picture of, what your process looks

like when you're selling to a customer.

Is it.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: it

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: A,
b and c pick this mis Mrs.

Or Mr.

Customer, like pick one of these choices.

Do you have a wheelhouse where
you say, Hey, we're really good

at nonprofit donation websites,
but if you wanted us to build

a membership

site, we don't do that.

Like, that's not in our wheelhouse.

How do you like, refine and and fine
tune your your machine at the agency?

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: machine
is way overstating what it is.

it's really me taking, so I
always, I always try to get

on the phone with people.

First of all, it starts with an email.

I.

Usually, our, our main
marketing channel is SEO.

And so, and it has been forever.

And so we get all our
leads from SEO pretty much.

and so an email comes in, sometimes
they'll call, and I try, at this point I

get so much spam email and phone that I
kind of ha I let it go to voicemail first,

kind of, you know, or let the ai, I use
an AI on my Android phone to screen them.

That's

another example.

that's a good use of ai,

like, and how I use it
in my daily workflow.

But, You know, I, I get the package thing.

we used to sell packages and
we've been testing it out with

SEO, but what we do now is like,
really, this is, I don't know.

I don't know how other
people do it really.

Like, for me it's, it's totally arbitrary.

Like really at the end of the
day, I'm trying to get a sense

through conversations like how
big of a project are we talking?

And part of that is the technology
and the, you know, the requirements.

But the other part is like,
how many layers of bureaucracy

do we have to fight through to

approve?

Some text, you know, how, how,
how easy are you to converse with,

like, are you putting up a fight on
everything I say, or are you like, ah,

Toby, that's brilliant, let's do it.

You know, like to me tho there are
costs that I add arbitrarily based on

my feeling about, so like, I was talking
to someone the other day, this is like a

week ago, and, I got a sense right away.

And so I was like, yeah, usually
our budgets are let's say five

to 10 grand, whatever I told 'em.

Very small, non-profit,
for-profit, but they're like

kind of a startup locally here.

It was clear right away
that that was off the table.

And so I was like, well, I also do this
other thing that is actually really cool

and it's way cheaper, but it's different.

And the, the gist of it is
I'm gonna sit down with you.

For five or six hours total over a few
weeks and we're gonna build your site

together and you control how expensive
it is because there are lots of shortcuts

we can take, a lot in that process.

And they, they did that and I
actually met with them yesterday.

It was fantastic.

And

like, so me as like a small
business owner, I have that.

Flexibility to kind of like

do that.

And I'm always looking, I'm
desperate to close deals

all the time, and I

always have been.

And this is like a fear of dying.

This is like what

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, I
go into that because I, I think a

lot of people don't realize that,
you know, everyone online, we're all

fighting for survival in this game.

Like, even if you see somebody with

a seven figure, eight figure
agency run rate, like, yeah,

agency life is fun and it

can be very

profitable, but it's also like
one paycheck away from death.

So explain

What

What you're, what that means to you.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: mean, I don't
know if this was like my upbringing,

I grew up poor or whatever, but
like we all kind of grew up poor.

I think if you talk to
people, we all grew up poor.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah.

Yeah.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: but like I am
scared to death that I'm not gonna be

able to pay the mortgage next month, even
though I've paid it every month for the

last 472 months without major issues, you

know, like, So like, here's an example.

Like if you came to me and you were
like very reasonable and calm and

nice and kind, you're, and you, you're
like, I have X amount of dollars.

We might be able to make a deal.

You know, like that's how desperate I am.

I'm not gonna jam you into our process.

you know, but like anything, if you
come in, in a way that rubs me the wrong

way, well maybe we can't make a deal,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah.

Or add another few zeros
to the end of that,

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yep.

There was one, person I was co-working
with that she hired me to help her.

She has a, just a brilliant idea
for a startup and they, she's like,

I really just need this website.

And it was kind of like a membership
thing, so you can kind of envision

that where people pay for a
membership and kind of like Upwork,

but for a different vertical.

and I was like, yeah,
I think I can do that.

And I was doing this thing
where we would kind of meet up.

I would do it just hourly, you know?

So she was getting like a great deal.

I

wasn't doing a lot of scoping.

We were meeting in person.

I was scoping, I.

Her business partner was
like, what is this charge?

And so after that, her
costs went skyrocketed.

I, I was like, okay, I
can't meet with you anymore.

We're gonna need to scope stuff out.

We're

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: and

I,

ended up making more money, did less work.

I made more money for less
work in that scenario.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: And she, I
don't know if she was happy or not as

happy, but I don't know that it mattered.

Maybe it was better, I don't know.

But yeah,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah,

I mean it's, you have those
conversations and you know, I think

I've always tried, you know, say
the phrase like blue collar digital

worker, where

like in your example, like,
you're nice, I'm nice.

Here's the, like, it's all about like,
what, what are those expectations?

What are those requirements that you need

from me?

If

you are not gonna beat me up and call

me on a Saturday afternoon

or in the middle of the night about,
you know, something that you told

me you were just experimenting
with, you know, it's the,

the worst customers from back in the
day was this, like, I have no budget.

you know, I want it now.

And,

you know, sometimes he'd
be like, okay, okay.

They, They, would like scale it
back and be like, all right, you

know, we're not gonna be making, you
know, any money, I promise, like,

you know, don't do all this thing.

And then they start like going
gangbusters with an e-commerce store.

Like I remember vividly, remember
Saturday, a particular customer

from way back who did all the

same.

He was hard-nosed.

We got along.

you know, he worked me with the
budget and then my thing was like,

okay, you can work me on the budget,
but I'm gonna scale back support.

I'm gonna scale back
feature set we're gonna use,

you know, I didn't tell
him, but we're gonna

use these plugins.

I mean, I would say like, we've got
these repeatable code that we could use.

You know, I'm

not, you know, this is
way back in the day.

And

that then like Saturday

would come and he had like

this,

he was somewhere, I forget, with like
in-person event and he was selling

tickets to all these things and he was.

Freaking out that his website was down.

And I'm like, I

remember you telling me

that this wasn't gonna be a

thing.

Like you weren't gonna be making money.

Well, you weren't gonna be, you didn't

require, like, you didn't wanna pay the
300 bucks a month for hosting or whatever

it was for a dedicated server back
then you told me you didn't need this.

You know, and here we are.

you just gotta have those

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: yeah, in
the common, the common red, red, you

know, we have red flags that we develop
over, like, as these calls come in and

emails and what the most common,
immediate red flag is, this

is gonna be quick and easy.

Like when they're like,
I need something done.

It's really easy.

And I'm always like, if it was
easy, you wouldn't be calling me.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yes,

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018:
was quick, it'd be done.

So why are we talking?

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yes.

That's like sales 1 0 1.

I mean, I, I can start with that.

You know, I can catch myself, get

like I'm talking to a contract
about building like, a deck and

I'm like, look, this should just be

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: right, right.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: as if I know how

to pull out a nail gun and
start building myself a

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: exactly.

Here's another example of,
it can pay to be nice like

to small businesses, but even
big ones, but like, I had someone

I brought on as a developer.

I, I like, they're like really struggling.

They're like a local contractor.

They have, you know, a business
that's been going for years, but

they needed help with their website
and like, I really helped 'em.

I like made it way better and
for a very reasonable rate.

And then we were hosting them and then
I, they started calling me on weekends

and I was just like, what is going on?

And like, they would break it.

Anyway, the, the bottom line is,
They call, they, they emailed and

called, this is just like a month
or so ago, and they're like, we're

moving to someone else for hosting.

Like, and, and we want a refund on the
prorated annual contract that they signed.

And if they had been nice throughout,
I probably would've given the refund.

Like

if they had been really cool and nice.

I, I mean, that's my inclination
to be like, oh yeah, sure.

You know, stuff happens.

But since they were such jerks and
they continued to be jerks, even

at the end, like when demanding the
refund, like it was, it was how they

demanded it more than that they demanded

and like, just like, no,
you're under contract.

I cannot, I we do not grant refunds

when you sign an, you know, that was my

policy, that's my policies.

I gave,

just gave them the policy, you know.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah.

Yeah.

It's, yeah, and being nice
doesn't mean you get, you know.

Stepped on, or, you know, you're, you're,
making less money because the offset is

less

stress is the way that I see it.

Right.

You want to operate your business with
as least stressed as possible, making

the most amount of money you can.

Like, it's a simple formula.

it's just, you know, it's

hard.

It's hard Yes.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I had
sales describe to me you wanna

push them on price and to the point
that they're uncomfortable, Right.

Yeah.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah.

Efficiencies on

the back end of the house.

we, we talked about like having the

conversations, the pre-sales
into the sales, into the

delivery process.

Do you have a stack?

You always use a theme and a set
of plugins you use on every single

project that lessens the amount of
time spent, but then improves those

gaps of, or that that profitability.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Yeah,
I was thinking about this today.

We've been very, so we use
Beaver Builder wherever possible.

you know, beaver Builders, if you
don't know his competitor to, I

know you know Matt, but it's a
competitor to Elementor in Baker,

WP Bakery and that sort of thing.

Astra would be a competitor
to Beaver Builder in theory.

I.

So I did a number of tests a handful
of years ago, and I have a blog post.

It's like my longest
blog post I ever written.

It was a bunch of ab tests using Beaver
verse, Elementor verse Bakery and verse

Core and Beaver builder performed the
fastest from a speed test perspective in

that very, you know, non-scientific study,
like somewhat scientific study that I ran.

so we started using BeaverBuilder
then and we've just continued, we

have some, we, we would always start
with Beaver Builder for building it.

If we have a, a customer, we
do have Elementor sites that we

manage, that we've onboarded, but,
if we were to rebuild them, we

would definitely switch to Beaver.

we generally don't use Git or
anything like that because,

Cowboy coding is too negative.

Like, not quite it, but you know,
with WordPress it's like, what are

you gonna put and get, you know,
everything's like, you could store

the database and gi I suppose, but
you already have backups of that.

So we use Managed wp.

so first of all, I, I tried like
every backup solution I could get.

I wanted like a really, robust, like a,
a backup solution that would work every

time and that it was easy to restore.

And I tried like, backup buddy for
years and, a bunch of other ones.

all the ones that I could think to test.

Some were in the cloud, some were not.

and I even, even, so managed
wp, we use them for every site.

We back up everything in the cloud.

We already are running, cloud
backups on whatever host we're using.

We're using site ground primarily,
as the hosting solution.

but we're even backing up that
on managed WP, just so we have

multiple redundancies and whatnot.

So I love managed WP and since we
had that, I, we've started to use it

to send reports and it's been really

nice.

Like, and they have, I even, they have
A-A-S-E-O feature in there where you

can track up to a hundred keywords.

I've started selling that, like,

oh, you wanna track some keywords?

Great.

And basically we have two
customers that are basically

paying for our managed WP With

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: keyword
tracking, you know, and, and I'm

not doing any more work other than

the onboarding, you know?

So, and, and, and, and from
a sales perspective that's

leading to more conversations.

So like, how come my ranking went

down?

What happened?

I'm like, I don't know.

Let's talk.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: yeah.

Yeah.

That's great.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: so
that's on the WordPress end.

You know,

we use local, if we de develop locally,
but usually we're developing staging sites

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah.

Yeah, Yeah,

yeah.

I like the, I like that you, this is
a bit of a tangent, but I like that,

that you're still using Beaver Builder,
and I think that they've found, they've

slotted themselves into a space of like

a non hype, reliable page building tool

on

paper.

I hope that means

That they're still running
a successful business

compared to the giants who will
cut cost and be in your face with

marketing and ship every new feature.

Because I've

seen this year after year of like,
oh, there's a new page builder out.

Let's shift the whole business over there.

I used Beaver Builder
when I was at my agency.

I could not understand anyone wanting
to take that risk of like, you already

have this back catalog of customers.

You built this.

You built sites for using
X, Y, z, page builder.

Now you saw another one that had two
more features and you were like, let's

shift the whole business over there.

How does that make sense?

You know?

but people do it because they're,

they're after a lower price.

They're after a new feature, they're just
getting bored and they're not thinking

like scalable business, and that's scary.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: but also
like the, on the cost end, like I

always, like, I know because I, I
have a lot of, I lead the word or

I lead the WordPress user group.

I meet, we, every Wednesday I
get together with the, with the

WordPress developers to cowork.

And so we have a lot of these
conversations and I'm always like

surprised by like they're providing plugin
licenses without any additional charges.

And I'm like.

Just charge 'em a few bucks and
you've covered at least your fees.

Like,

you know,

like, there's a

lot of like businessy here.

Another example is like, so
two ways to grow your business.

One is to make more money.

Three ways make more money.

Well, I guess make more
money are cut costs.

Those are the two ways.

But like, if you just look at the
making money part, one way to make

more money is to sell more stuff.

Another way is just to increase fees.

And so like a year ago I increased
fees across the board, 5.7%.

On all my customers
without, without exception.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019:
How did you come up with 5.7?

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: by 5.7%

basically without doing any more work.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: how
did you come up to the number?

5.7%.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018:
it seemed pretty mathy.

Like it seemed like if someone pressed me,
I could explain it with some bit of math.

Yeah.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah,
but there was like probably like a

bigger, like, here's the flat fee
number I'm trying to achieve, and 5.7

across all my customers
gets me to that number.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: no, not really.

IW I was really just, I
wanted to increase costs.

'cause our

costs are increasing and like we, we
never increased cost in 18 years, 17

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: right.

This was a question I was gonna
have for you, so this is great.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: great.

Yeah.

So we never, IM increased costs.

I shouldn't say like we charged
ar like I say, we've been charging

arbitrarily for basically the same
website for 18 years and, you know, but.

On the hosting end, we never, I shouldn't
say we've charged more, but we never

increased cost on existing customers.

That just hasn't been a thing.

So, I just felt like, you know, we've
been at it 18 years and in my mind I

was like, my salary isn't going up.

Like, and so at least if I do this,
I can increase my salary by 5.7%,

which, which my wife has been
clamoring for for a decade.

You know, like everyone
else is getting raises.

You're sitting there not getting
a raise and you're the, you know,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, Yeah,
that, that's smart of you because

Yeah, like once again, if you go
into the air quotes, real world of,

of,

business, food, lumber, electricians,
plumbers, everything, literally

going up and, you know, I feel
like a lot of us web designers or

agency owners I should say, but
sitting behind a computer, even if

you're consulting, a lot of us aren't,
we're just absorbing that into our

already existing margins, which.

You know, it's driven by market demand.

I totally get it.

More competition the harder it is, but
you know, standing out is very important.

leads me to, one of my final questions
here is you mentioned SEO being the

biggest, marketing factor for you.

you have a great podcasting setup.

Are you're doing
podcasting content as well?

Like what other factors help
drive traffic to your business?

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: I, I, I think
if anything it's Relationships that I've

built over 18 years in the business.

I don't think my, you know, I have
some YouTube videos out there.

I've done a lot of LinkedIning stuff,
but the, the leads that I get that are

not SEO are like an old friend who's
like, Hey, I work at a marketing agency

here and we need a WordPress person.

so we just closed one of those.

I have a buddy who's was at the coffee
shop the other day and not the other

day, a couple months ago, and he
just chatted up someone next to him.

They're like, yeah, we need a website.

And they've become a client of ours.

You know, it's

like that sort of,

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018:
I, I've been not good.

I have intended to be good, but I've
been failing, failing miserably at like

other marketing

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019:
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah,

yeah, no, that's great.

And referral, obviously still
like the number one driver once

again, is AI doing that for us.

Google search

isn't doing that for us.

you know, it's

just putting out

good, a good product, having, you know,

Something that you aspire
to, you know, achieve, right?

Like, this is, this is
why you hire my business.

This is how we think,
this is how we operate.

you know, SEO is working great for you.

but still at the end of the day, I'm
sure referrals and people like trusting

your work and being like, Hey, we know
another business that needs something.

You're

the guy,

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: the

guy.

Yeah.

And here's the, the, there's gonna
be someone out there, of course, who,

who's gonna be like, no, I can use
ar ai to automate my email marketing.

And anyone who seasoned to this is

gonna go, not really

like good luck.

I mean, maybe if you had an
email list of 3 million people,

maybe you could land a few deals.

But

like, I have a buddy who works at
a big, SEO agency in town, and his

job is to get sales for the agency.

So he's, he's marketing
like B2B bigger companies.

And he was telling me like.

This isn't even an ai, but
I could see AI doing this.

But, he was saying one of his bosses
wanted him to write like copy that

was like, very not correct for like,
like, it was like put a big thumbs

up in the subject line, you know,

like that sort of thing.

And he's like,

that's not really like
how I wanna position it.

But that's the sort of thing
AI will tell you to do.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

That's, that's a whole other,

you know, soapbox moment for me.

But like, yeah, I, I posted something
the other day and somebody like

tweeted back to me was like,

you didn't sell me in 30 seconds,
so I don't really care about this.

And I'm like, guy, I've never put out

anything that I've

want.

Like I've never

published a

piece of content trying to sell anybody.

On anything.

Like you either want it or you don't.

Right.

And, and that's

why I and it wasn't even a thing I
was selling, I was just, it was just

about one of my tutorials or something.

I forget what it was,

but, people,

I, I just don't live in that mindset.

I, and I debate this with folks
like Mark Semanski and, and Kevin

Geary, who, you know, might have
more of like a strategic approach

for creating content and doing social

like.

I don't,

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: Mm-hmm.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019: and I know
that's like a bad thing, but my only

advantage is I haven't given up where
I'm not saying Mark and, and, and

Kevin would, but I think folks who
are just in the like, growth mindset

of like optimize the thumbnail, put
the keywords in, in, in the video

and you know, in the first
five seconds you have to punch

Zoom in and zoom back out.

Like, I don't wanna do that,

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: that,

Yep.

Yeah.

Well,

you're

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019:
want my authentic content.

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: yeah.

And you're pointing to something
that's unique in the WordPress space.

Not unique, but very special about it.

and that is that, the community
is what built WordPress.

And I give Matt all the props for that.

Like he built an amazing community
and continues to maintain it.

And, Matt Mullen is who I'm talking about.

But you too.

Yeah.

I'll put you there too.

So you, I mean, honestly, you're like,
one of the pillars of the community,

like the people who really like,
gather people together to, you know,

to, to think about WordPress deeply.

And, one of the things that right now
that our community is going through

is, you know, the, this recent stuff
between Automatic and WP Engine, it.

It points to the strength
of the community in a way.

And I really hope they figure it out and
can get back to building the community up.

because it's been, it's
been, it's been sad.

It's been kind of heartbreaking to me to,
but at the same time, like I know I have

two brothers I don't talk to anymore.

you know, two blood brothers, and
I know there's, that stuff happens

in, in, it's very small and like,
as I say, the community, but like,

if it can happen in my family.

It can happen here.

And I really hope that, I, I'm
really hopeful for the community

that will figure it out.

And I think Matt will.

I I really, it's interesting 'cause
a lot of my peers here in Minneapolis

that I talk to don't have, they've lost
faith in the WordPress community and I

haven't, you know, there's work to be
done and I'm gonna do my little part to.

Do what I can do.

And you're, you're, you've
been continuing to do that too.

And, you know, without blame and without
expectation, you know, I just kind of,

I, I'm gonna, you know, we're still here.

Yeah.

matt_1_03-20-2025_114019:
The Mighty mo.com.

He's Toby.

you can find him once
again, the mighty mo.com.

Toby, where else do

you

want folks to go to say,

thanks?

toby_1_03-20-2025_104018: you can hit
me up on LinkedIn, send me a message.

Be happy to converse there.

And email's great too.