The WP Minute+

Matt: welcome back to the WP minute.

Nyasha: Hey Matt, thank you for having me.

Matt: It's been a short, nine ish months,
but we were on the podcast back in

September, we chatted all about what you
were up to back then, WordPress developer,

course creator, podcasters still back
then, but now you've launched a new

podcast called the hopeful workspace.

By the way, love the, love the cover
art, love the podcast, cover art.

Nyasha: Thank you.

Matt: the hopeful workspace.

We're going to link everything
up in the show notes.

So if you want to listen to
the podcast, you just click the

link right in the show notes.

Tell us where you've been, what
you've been up to and, and why we

got into launching a new podcast
under your, under your brand.

Nyasha: Yeah.

So, as you know, I was podcasting before,
but it was always through other companies.

So I basically did the hosting or speaking
sometimes the transcripts, but I never

created my own podcast from scratch where
I had to do like the editing and you know,

find the people and do the subject matter.

And it's something that
I always wanted to do.

I didn't see myself doing it specifically
on this subject matter, but, this

came about because I was laid off.

Since our last chat, again, in January,
right after Christmas, and it had

been my second layoff in six months.

I had been laid off that summer and
then I got laid off that winter.

And since January, it's
now June, it has been

I don't know.

I don't know if there's
one word to describe.

It's been a roller coaster of
craziness and emotions and just a lot.

just going from, you know, the obvious
income to no income, but resources to no

resources, health insurance, no health
insurance, you know, things like that.

And, I of course have gone through all
the feelings that you can go through

when something like that happens, but
what inspired me to actually make this

podcast and not just rant on Twitter
is that I talked to a lot of people.

Friends, family, and
people, just colleagues.

And it wasn't just me.

everybody knows there are a lot of
tech layoffs going on right now.

There are a lot of companies going
under, there are a lot of people

not doing well in the job space.

And as I talked to people about
my situation and they shared their

situations with me, I realized that it
was a lot of us, a lot, a lot of lot.

And What has been getting me through this,
because it has been a very tough time.

if you listen to my podcast, I'll
say in my episode, this is the most

difficult thing that has ever happened
to me in my life, which I'm happy

and privileged to say, but I have
had a really good support system.

I've had a, my family has swooped in to
save me more than, A handful of times

the last year, my friends, my colleagues,
even, former coworkers, they have, you

know, been there for me, but the more I
talk to people, the more I realize a lot

of people don't have that support system.

It's a lot, especially in
the United States, we're very

individualistic society and that's
kind of harming people right now.

So I said, instead of getting on a, going
on a rant, which, you know, everybody

wants to do instead of, you know, burying
my feelings, which is not healthy.

I thought, why don't I make something
that we can come to as a collective

and talk about what's going on?

What's the state of jobs?

What's the state of working right now?

Place a place where people
can know they're not alone.

So that's where it came from.

I was actually inspired.

One of my friends was telling me
about how he was struggling with

his drug drug job loss and he lost
his job around the same time as me.

I've had, I worked three jobs right now.

I've had three, I've had four jobs
since my first layoff and I've had

three as of now and he hasn't had one.

And just hearing stories
like that, it crushed me.

And again, I felt I'm just so
privileged to have that support system.

These colleagues, you know,
recommending me places and people

willing to step up for me, like,
how can I be that for someone else?

So that's where the hopeful
workspace came from.

I want people to know that they
have a support system, even if they

don't know me and they're not alone.

Matt: We talk about the WordPress
community being so great, inviting, you

know, folks that can connect with each
other, you know, we always say, you know,

even in competitors and competition and
let's say if you are making a plugin and

selling a plugin and somebody else is
selling the same plugin, we call them

frenemies in the space, whatever, right?

There's a, there's a lot of this, what
I'll say is maybe this vanity of a

welcoming community, and maybe that's even
not the right word because it's not false.

It's just, where I'm going with this
is, there's no central place to say,

or at least that I know of, you can
just go to and say, I need help.

Hey community, I need help.

Whether it's finding a partner for a
project to work on, or getting a job, or

getting educated, on things in WordPress.

I don't know of a central source is truly
a help or a beacon to the community.

Unless you know of one, or you can share
maybe your thoughts and your opinion on

when you were going through, you know,
losing the job, and then losing the

second job, like, where did you turn
to in the community to find that help?

If at all, did you find it as welcoming
as maybe we perceive it to be?

Nyasha: That's a good question.

So I'm, I have many
thoughts, but I'm with you.

I don't think there's one central place.

There isn't, and there have been.

Places that are have propped up to
try to be that one central place, but

there isn't I again, privileged to be
a connected person in the community.

At least I think so.

I basically told people after my first
layoff, I was, that was the first time I

ever got laid off fired in my entire life.

I didn't tell anybody for a month or two.

So most people didn't know for a while.

but I turned to social media, honestly.

And, when social media found out,
Because I have a, I don't have a

large following, but it's not small.

I was able to get some connections
through a few people in the WordPress

community through social media.

And that helped me get my second job.

well, the second layoff job, but, I
think if you have a large network,

it's easy, but you know, even before
I got laid off from any job, I told

people like, you know, I'm one person.

if there's someone, you know,
I know, and they have 200, 300

followers, they've never been to
a WordCamp, they've never spoken.

They don't know how to
really connect with people.

They're not in the 5
million slacks that we have.

Where do they turn?

What do they do?

You know, if I hadn't befriended so
many people, I don't think I would

have gotten the connections I did.

So I don't think there's a central
place for people, unfortunately.

I, again, I think there
are places popping up.

Michelle for shit does her weekly
Wednesday, job postings, in

their jobs all over the world.

So I think they're very inclusive
and it's a very positive thing.

but Michelle has a lot of projects.

She can't do it all.

So, you know, there that's that,
and you mentioned learning.

As someone who works for LinkedIn
learning, making WordPress courses,

that is a big source of controversy.

there's a lot of places people, they
just don't feel like they can go

to learn, learn WP or, yeah, learn
WP is supposed to be that place.

And they do a great job, especially
Bostinger and, Courtney Robertson, but

again, it's it's only a handful of people
We need more people to come in and kind

of like elevate and make these spaces
or help out with these spaces It can't

be the same people doing the same things
because they're going to be stretched thin

and it won't reach as many people Yeah

Matt: when you were, you were
laid off last year, I'm trying

to forget because now the time.

So I was also laid off in beginning
of end of 2022 going into 2023.

right.

Yes.

I think so.

Yes.

I've been at Gravity Forms
for just over a year.

So 2023, your first layoff,
my first layoff too.

I've never been laid off before like that.

And you experienced
the same thing in 2023.

So like the whole industry was going
through it, but you know, You, I also

have invested a lot of time on the social
media side of it, connecting with others.

Is that something we should be teaching,
teaching with air quotes, part of being

what I'll call a WordPress professional
or a professional in the tech space

to, to be more social and to connect
with others, because that was super

important for me to find another job.

And it sounds like it was the same.

Importance with you is if you
hadn't created that network, maybe

it wouldn't have been as easy to
just, you know, post stuff on social

and get people to amplify that.

Is that even possible to teach?

Am I that or overstating that, that
creating a social network is important

for, for us in the job space so
that when we are looking for another

job, it's, it's a little bit easier,
there's a super unique to WordPress,

what's, what's your point of view?

Nyasha: yes, I think it's
something that can be taught.

I was actually taught to do, to do
this and it's just, it's harder in

the tech space because we have so many
people who identify as introverts.

and it's hard for them
to go out and do that.

People don't believe me because
I'm such a sparkling personality.

I was a very big introvert.

I just had no choice.

I had no choice.

I had to become an extrovert.

First of all, I'm six, two people.

They see a 6'2 woman,
they will bother you.

People bother me every day.

Two, I want things.

I'm very ambitious.

I've always been very ambitious,
especially since I was a child.

And my mom and dad used to say, you have
to open your mouth if you want something.

So, it can be taught.

when I first finished my coding
classes, they said, hey, it's not

what you know, it's who you know.

That's how you'll get a job.

I'm sure we've all heard that before.

It's It's that times 10 right now.

I've talked to many people older than
me and they said this is the worst job

market they've ever seen in their lives.

So, I mean, yes, it can be taught
and it should be taught, especially

in the WordPress community.

the people I see getting laid off
and then getting jobs again are the

people who know people, they got a job
because their friend works someplace

or their friend owned something.

That's great.

But what is everybody else going to do?

It's.

So it's what millions of people all
over the world will use WordPress.

We don't all know each other.

We don't all have that network.

So yes, it's something that
should and can be taught.

And again, it's not, it's not what you
know, it's who, you know, unfortunately.

Matt: Yeah, it's It's also almost
sort of the same way because I've seen

that this is a forever debate about
open source WordPress and influence,

know, let's say from automatic and

Nyasha: hmm.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

Matt: I just mean this is how it sort
of like gets done core contributors.

Like in order to get it done, you
have to, you know, be that squeaky

wheel to keep bringing something up.

And there are track tickets like decade
plus in age that people are still

like, is this ever going to get fixed?

Like that, like being vocal and
connecting with other people.

that's just, that's how open
source works to a degree.

It's how marketing works.

It's a core fundamental piece
of operating, at least online.

I don't know if, well, your
opinion, I don't know if this same

thing works in regular job land.

Is that, is that, can I even say that?

Is that fair to say?

or maybe it does.

I don't know.

Do you have a particular opinion?

if we're not doing tech, is all of
this just thrown out the window?

And, and do we have to feel bad about it?

for, for people who have to get regular
jobs without this kind of, this kind

of, you know, advantage that we have.

Nyasha: you're no, it's, it's the same.

It's the same in the regular job market.

So the regular, the tech job
market to me is awful right now.

The regular job market is also pretty bad.

that was one thing I wanted
to highlight in my podcast.

I was like, I don't want it to
be another WordPress podcast.

I don't want it to be another tech
podcast, but because that's what I do,

you know, of course it's going to have a
large focus on it, but let me hear from

people in different industries, which is.

Who are featured on the podcast.

Let me hear what they're talking about.

let me hear from a manager.

I had a manager who actually
does hiring and firing on there.

And, it's bad all over.

And it's something you'll
have to learn all over.

Like my first job after my second
layoff in January, I couldn't get a job.

I tried to get a job in tech.

I couldn't get a job.

And as of March, I was like, well, I can
keep holding out for another tech job.

And lose my home or I can go get a Rick
and I'm doing the air quotes, regular job.

And so I got my first job in March
and it was a regular job and the

place I work at, I won't say what I'm
doing because honestly I am still,

I hate to say, It's not any, I hate to
like even stumble on it cause people

are like, well, what are you doing?

Is it bad?

It's nothing bad.

It's very legal job for
everybody listening.

but it's just, it's not something I
never thought I would ever be doing.

but that job has been so supportive.

they've helped me a lot and I
work with five other people.

Two of whom are a married couple and the
husband got the job through his wife.

So yes, especially outside of tech,
you still need to know people.

I don't know, I know you're on Twitter.

Did you see the guy that said he,
he put in 463 job applications

and he didn't get a call back.

That was trending on
Twitter last week, I think.

And, it started a big debate about
like, how the job process is broken

and he shouldn't have to do that.

And then it's people on the other
side saying, well, that's just

what you have to do these days.

And then there's people kind of in the
middle, like it sucks, but honestly,

it's who, you know, now everywhere,
you'd need to know somebody to get a job.

Matt: Yeah.

It, and that's a non,
that's a non tech job.

Does it feel good not to have to think
about PHP and just for a few hours a day?

Nyasha: So when I first started
the job, it was my only job.

Kinda.

I still work for LinkedIn, but it's
LinkedIn is not a continuous job.

So that was, my only job
technically at the time.

And yes, it was wonderful.

Matt: Yeah.

Nyasha: when I clocked out and went home.

Cause it was in person.

My first in person job too, in
a long time, when I clocked out

and I went home, I was home.

I didn't have to think
about code or anything else.

My second job is writing.

I'm writing again.

And, it's technical writing.

So it was a little bit back
into it, but it's just writing.

My third job that I started two weeks
ago, I'm back web development, web

maintenance, and I'm doing PHP and
JavaScript again, and I can definitely

feel the difference because, last night
I was sleeping and I was thinking about

some code while I was going to sleep.

I was thinking about some code.

I needed to change.

I was like, I'm not
getting out of the bed.

So I was back at it.

Matt: Yeah, I'm gonna just put it

Nyasha: Oh,

Matt: now like once was
my house is paid off.

I might just become a landscaper.

I just want to buy a truck,

Nyasha: yeah.

Mm hmm.

Mm

Matt: website that there is.

And just, automate all, the making and
use, use all that tech advantage that

I've been building up for, for years.

And just, what, you want
me to cut this grass?

Okay, it's, it's 30, it's 40, that's it.

That's the

Nyasha: hmm.

Matt: I want to think about.

I don't want to think about any more
code or product you know, marketing and

why isn't this attribution link working.

I want to be done with it.

Yeah.

I, I mean, did, did you ever, for a
moment, think about, and maybe you do,

still, maybe on, on the side side, but did
you ever think about, you know what, so

finding a job isn't, isn't working out.

Maybe I'll just go into pure
freelancer consultant mode.

I'll just go out, find a book of business
again, and start, start with that.

is that a thing that you ever thought
about or is that, you know, I, I,

it's not something I want to, that's
not the kind of risk I wanna take on.

Nyasha: Yeah, I actually, what
kept me floating through the first

few months after my second layoff
this year was I had contract work.

I had some friends who started
a small candle business.

I had another person who was, who
had a consulting website on Wix

and she just needed a new website.

so I had some people who had,
maintenance clients, maintenance

work is my favorite work.

I love fixing stuff.

And they were like, you know, These people
need help, but I don't have the bandwidth.

Can I send them to you?

So I've done it.

Yes.

And, I like contracting freelancing.

I don't want to do it full time and I
don't want to depend on it for money.

Matt: Yeah.

Nyasha: And all three of my jobs I'm
working right now are contract jobs and

it's great because I get paid every week
and you know, it's tax free for now.

But, I, you know, the trade office,
I don't have health insurance.

That would have been the same
thing if I, you know, if I was

freelancing, I don't have PTO.

I got sick in May, April, I got
really sick and I was in the

hospital, which nobody knows.

I didn't tell anybody.

So when they listen to this deal here
and, no health insurance, no PTO.

So it's I left the hospital with a
doctor's bill that I couldn't pay really.

And I lost money from work.

Matt: Yep.

Nyasha: So I'm not brave enough yet.

that's something like
when I'm working with.

Like i'm making like really good
money again, and i'm getting benefits

I start on the side I build it up on
the side It's building up and then

when I feel comfortable enough to
make that jump i'll i'll do that.

But right now i'm just i'm scared I

Matt: way of, framing it.

But how do you think about, as,
let's say, a full time employee, how

do you think about hedging your own

interest in the future?

Here's what I'm getting at.

And I know the answer is semi is
you're, you have the hopeful workspace

podcast and, and your other work that
you're doing, but how do we make that?

Should we make this, should we normalize
this and can it be normalized and

can employers also support this?

So let's say you can, you continue the
podcast and it's two, three years from

now, and the podcast is still going and
know, maybe this job, maybe your full time

job, let's go again, or you leave, right?

But you have the body of work
over the last two or three

years running the podcast.

You know, all your social media stuff.

Should we normalize that?

should you get a full time job
and then also have a side hustle?

As like an insurance, as a, as
like an insurance barrier to, I

might lose this job so I have to
keep like hustling on the side.

Is that something we should be doing?

I don't know.

should we be doing it?

And if the answer is yes, should
employers be like, Oh, no, it's

cool that you have a side hustle.

It's okay.

Because we understand how hard it is.

Is that a thing?

Should that be a thing?

Nyasha: have two answers to that.

Matt: I

Nyasha: I'll tell you

Matt: it.

I don't know how to

Nyasha: No, I know exactly
what you're saying.

It's the normalization of hustle culture
is what people call it on Twitter.

Matt: Mm hmm.

Nyasha: me a couple of years ago, I would
have told you, no, we should not do this.

working three jobs is, is exhausting.

The only reason I can do it is because
my, one of my jobs, the first one

I got, it's a sit down desk job.

And sometimes we have, well, a
lot of the times we have downtime.

And I can, and they don't care
what I do as long as I'm at work

and you know, my work is finished.

I could do whatever I
want the rest of my shift.

So I work on other work then.

So, I think they called it
over employment on Reddit when

people did that during COVID.

that's how I can work these jobs.

I was a person then I said that I would
work really hard in school and life.

So I wouldn't have to
work more than one job.

I'm a person that I love my social
life and my life outside of work.

I do not love work.

I don't want to live to work.

And, that's how I lived my life.

I excelled and I did well.

So I wouldn't have to
hustle, join hustle culture.

After my layoffs, my answer has
changed because I am so terrified

of not having any income.

Matt: Mm.

Nyasha: And I think the job market
is so bad, especially in tech.

I think people should
have at least one backup.

And if it's not something
they're working currently,

something they can fall back on.

I had, when I got laid off from
my first job, there were a lot

of, of my former employees.

They had other side hustles.

They were like, well, it's okay.

I have a book of business where
I can go and just work off that.

Or some people were like, well, you
know, my spouse, my owns a business.

I'll go work for them or work with them.

And, me and one of my other coworker, she
was like, well, what are you going to do?

I was like, I don't know.

What are you going to do?

She was like, I don't know.

So, I hate that it's come to
that in the United States.

Matt: Mm.

Nyasha: You used to get your white picket
fence and what was the American dream?

The white picket fence,
two and a half kids.

In a car

Matt: Yeah, the

Nyasha: and you could work, Homer
Simpson work, you know, pushing

buttons at a nuclear power plant.

He has like a five bedroom
house, two, three kids, two cars.

Matt: yeah.

Nyasha: impossible now.

So I just think, no, we shouldn't,
we shouldn't be telling people this.

It shouldn't be normalized,
but some of us have no choice.

Matt: Hmm.

Nyasha: it's just, it just
depends on who you are.

I have no choice.

I have, I'm married.

My husband works very hard.

He supported me a lot.

He was a good support system.

I know people who got laid off.

They had nobody.

Some of them lost their homes.

They lost their cars.

So it depends on who you are, but
if you're in my position or if you

want me, if you're just directly
asking me, yeah, get a side hustle.

I'm sorry, but get a side hustle.

Matt: It can even be, like,
again, let's frame it from, the

Nyasha: Mm

Matt: as an example.

fill in the blank with your own
podcast, dear listener, fill in

the blank with your own podcast.

Or YouTube channel, or
blog, or newsletter.

Nyasha: hmm.

Mm hmm.

Matt: Like monetization scheme,
like you're making, you're selling

courses, you're doing all this stuff.

Maybe it doesn't have to be that, but
maybe it's just like a body of work,

a portfolio that says, this is the
stuff I'm like super passionate about.

Nyasha: Mm hmm.

Matt: the day, like that consistency
keeps people aware of what you

do and the, your abilities.

And if you ever have to leave a job
or a job, let's go, let's you go.

You can now say, Hey, look, I haven't
given up on this body of work.

By the way, this is
what I'm really good at.

Hopefully this helps me
get that job right in

Nyasha: Mm hmm.

Matt: market.

I don't know.

That's the way maybe I'm too romantic
around content and like podcasting and

all that stuff, but that's how I see
it as this is my biggest resume I could

hand to somebody look, this is all this
stuff I haven't given up on in years.

Do you want to hire me?

Yes.

No.

Nyasha: I think that's wonderful.

And yeah, like I've been taking, I got
a camera for my birthday last year.

I've been taking professional pictures.

They've gotten really better.

Some people have asked
me to sell them to them.

And I'm like, Oh, I
never thought about that.

It's just something for fun.

I started a garden and I have fresh
Herbs and plants have tomatoes

and lettuce and things like that.

And people are like,
I'll buy that from you.

Matt: Yeah.

Nyasha: I'm like, Hmm, I could
turn this into something.

And it's just something I started
for like stress relief and fun.

So yeah, I'm right there with you.

It doesn't have to be like me working
all these like crazy jobs at crazy hours.

Matt: Yeah.

Nyasha: some people are against,
monetizing their hobbies, but I say,

you know, don't forget it's your hobby

Matt: Yeah.

Nyasha: and you'll be fine.

Matt: Yeah.

Back to the hopeful workspace.

Why, why a podcast?

Why not a TikTok account?

Why not a pure YouTube account?

Like, why not an Instagram?

I want to know why you picked a podcast.

Nyasha: I am a person who
wants to get to the story.

I think TikTok is very distracting
and TikTok, if you want a successful

TikTok, it has to be quick.

So I don't think I could have gotten
the story out on TikTok or any medium

like that because it's really quick.

And I don't know, it was like 20
seconds to get your point across.

Oh, being laid off sucks.

TikTok dance, glitter, glitter.

Yeah.

Oh, that wouldn't be
the best thing for me.

but I think A lot of people who I talked
to also said that listening to podcasts

about feeling better, about mental health,
about, just certain stuff they were

going through, it really helped them.

And it helped me too.

There were, a few podcasts people
would send to me just about Hey,

if you're not having a good day,
you should listen to this or, Or

this is what we're talking about.

This is all the good news
going on in the world with, you

know, amongst all the bad news.

So I said, Hmm, people for some
reason seem to like my voice.

I don't like my voice.

I'm like, why don't I just hop
on a podcast and talk to people,

but also, give these other people
a chance to tell their stories.

And, I could talk to people all over,
you know, the world if I want to, if I

do a podcast because of the internet,
just, you know, and then I can put it on

YouTube, but all the other mediums just
seem so restricted or I could only get

one type of audience in versus a podcast.

I feel like it could
reach way more people.

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I am, I only
like long form content.

Because

Nyasha: hmm.

Mm hmm.

Matt: primarily, long form, you know,
YouTube channels and stuff like that.

And, I don't like my work
just disappearing like Tik

TOK, Snapchat, Instagram,

Nyasha: Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt: goes away.

And it's I put so much effort into this.

want to write it as a blog, send it as
a newsletter and record it as a podcast.

Sure.

I'll do YouTube stuff, but.

I really think that for me, like that

Nyasha: Mm hmm.

Matt: And, you know, I guess kids
these days don't do that stuff.

but it's important to me
cause it doesn't go away.

It's our own domain.

You know, it's a whole open
source WordPress thing.

That's why we do what we do.

and I, I love the ability to box it up
and save it, repurpose it, all that stuff.

so I'm glad you, you chose
the route of, of audio.

You said it's the first time you
ran it, running this for yourself.

So what's, what,

Nyasha: Mm hmm.

Matt: have been some of the
challenges you've been faced with

running it solo for yourself?

Yeah.

Nyasha: and he's, he was also a engine,
electrical engineer, major sound engineer.

He was some type of engineer.

I don't know.

but he's like really good at like sound
and like editing and things like that.

I'm not.

So editing was like, firstly, like a
nightmare for me because I was like, Oh

my God, I don't know how to flow this in.

I don't know how to do transitions.

I've never had to do this before.

so editing was, It was hard, not as hard
as I thought, but it was, it was hard.

just things like little things
like, Oh, your microphone's popping.

I don't know how to fix that.

cause someone always fixed
it for me or like an echo.

Like somebody was like, Oh,
I'll fix that echo for you.

Like this podcast was actually
supposed to come out a month before.

And then I would sit down and I
would say, Oh my God, this is so

much, I don't know what to do, but,
once I got everything figured out

for the most part, it was so fun.

And I'm not just saying
that because it's mine.

Like I, it was so rewarding.

Like I hadn't done anything in a really
long time that was my own, that I put

together myself, that I got to fix
myself, that I got to say, I did this.

And it was incredible.

I don't think a TikTok would have,
TikTok would have had that impact on me.

Yeah,

Matt: to pull in guests?

If guests want to reach out,
where can they go to, to either

sign up or knock on your door
to, to jump on the show with you?

Nyasha: you can go to my
website, niceyourgreen.

com, forward slash the hopeful
workspace and just, Hit the contact

button and we can talk or you
can, contact me on social media.

nigh underscore the underscore
creator on Twitter or LinkedIn.

I am a LinkedIn learning instructor.

So I have courses if you'd like
to take my courses and help out

a laid off WordPress developer.

so yeah, you can reach
out to me on any mediums.

I'm super social.

So I'm always super active on
social media, even with three jobs.

Matt: And last question.

Do you want this to be the go to place
for folks looking for work in the

WordPress space or sharing their stories?

What's the North star you're trying to
create with the hopeful works workspace.

Nyasha: I want them to
share their stories.

I, one of my, things before
this, I wanted to do something

like help people find work.

again, it's just the amount
of work that goes into that.

It would have been more than I
could handle, especially as a person

who was also looking for work.

So I just want people to come there
when they're tired or they're mentally

frustrated or they're thinking about
giving up because it's not just you.

It's a lot of us out there and
we're not going to let you give up.

We'll be that support system for you.

Matt: I actually, thanks for hanging
out and sharing your story today.

Nyasha: Thank you.