The WP Minute+

Matt: Tessa, welcome to the WP minute.

Tessa: Excited to be here.

Matt: I obviously know you
from the WordPress space.

You're not doing much WordPress these
days, but I am excited to have a

perspective from somebody who was really
vested in WordPress, and now exploring

other things in the web tech space.

You're going to define that in a moment.

but this series is all about sort
of uncovering the challenges that

freelancers, boutique agencies have
had in 2024 running their business,

your perspective into launching into
2025 and what that might look like.

so for the uninitiated, what
does Tessa do these days?

Tessa: Oh, that's a loaded question.

what Tessa does these days is
I help anyone who is targeting

developers as their user audience.

and I help them go to market.

So a lot of it, you know, it's market
insights into that research, understanding

those developers, understanding that
technical stack that they're building

within and helping them understand
how to take that and actually go

to market in an effective way.

with developers, if, if folks don't know,
developers are a little different, right?

We don't really want
to talk to salespeople.

We don't want to talk to marketing people.

So we got to find, you've got to find
those people where they're at and really,

truly engage in that authentic way.

So it's kind of a TLDR, but, yeah.

Yeah.

Matt: I've seen a lot of roles.

I mean, in fact, I would say that
like my day job at gravity forms as.

I don't even know what the official
title is, don't tell my boss, but

I think it's something like, you
know, Community Lead for WordPress.

it sort of gets bucketed into developer
relations to a degree, though I'm not a

developer, I'm much more of a, like, a
power user, but so are a lot of, like,

Gravity Forms users, they're power users.

you know, with X percent being, like,
the real, you know, hardcore developer.

And this is a role that I see, you
know, Automatic constantly hiring

for, especially now in WooCommerce.

I've seen a lot of their
job postings coming up with,

with pushing into that space.

A lot of hosting companies as
well with developer relations.

It's, it's important.

It's like, you know, customer
service for your product.

At the end of the day, it's
like, how do I reach these folks?

And, you know, I like to think
of it as, is it just because

you can speak developer ish?

Is that, like, the essence of this role?

Because that's what it is for me, but is
that the essence of DevRel in your world?

Tessa: You know, yes, honestly,
I think that it really is.

Right.

Cause at the end of the day, it's, you
know, coming back to sort of the sense

of, you know, we're like adverse to
marketing, we're adverse to, you know,

sort of sales, but even when you think
about sort of the gravity form, right.

Power user over here, although I haven't
built in WordPress in a couple of

years, but love gravity forms, like,
wow, can it do some awesome stuff?

and that it's still sort of
this like audience of people

that are building things, right.

They might not be the.

Hardcore quote unquote developers, right.

That we might be thinking of, but
there's still developers on the list.

They're like builders, right?

They're bringing those things together.

They're creating something.

And I think when you're that, that
type of personality, it just works when

someone authentically engages with you.

and to actually kind of take that a
step further, I've, I believe that if

all companies started operating in the
way that DevRel operates, where we get

to know our audience and we actually.

And authentically engage
in them where they're at.

I think everyone would find a
lot of growth from that tactic.

And so, yeah, fundamentally, I think
that it's, it's really about getting

down there and like hanging out with
those users and like, who doesn't want

that for, from a company, you know?

Matt: we are gonna, like, talk about the
challenges of 2024, and then what your

perspective is into 2025, but I love this
topic, and I wanna go a little bit just

This seems like, you know, a dream role.

When I left my other career in, pod in the
podcast industry, capital P and capital

I, like being somebody who has been a
podcaster for over a decade and then like

had a career in it for a little while.

I was like, man, this is, this is great.

And I really started to see more
dev rel stuff pop up, right.

You know, be this community
liaison, really know the product.

It sounds great.

And I'm sure, just like if you
made a job posting for a content

marketer, a gazillion people will come
through the doors looking for this.

How does one stand out?

How does one really take this job
serious where it's not just show

up at word camps and high five
each other and eat some cupcakes?

What does it really take
to be in this profession?

Professionally.

Tessa: Yeah, I love what you just
said, because I think that a lot of

sort of DevRel as a, as a big tech
trend, so let's call it that, right?

Because DevRel has been around for years.

I mean, Apple started it
back in the seventies.

They, they understood that
technical audiences were different.

They needed to approach it differently,
but when you look at it today, and

even honestly, when you look at sort of
DevRel programs that were created over

the pandemic time, it was a lot of that.

It was a lot of eating cupcakes and
hanging with your friends and it

does work and it can work, right?

But at the end of the day, it only
works for so long and if you're actually

not focused and targeted and being
really strategic about where you're

eating those cupcakes, that value isn't
going to be there and so I think that

I feel is the true essence of DevRel
is actually being that voice, right?

You're that voice for the company.

And it's not that you're the
only voice for the company.

Of course, there are many people inside of
a company that should and could be a voice

for a company, but you are that voice with
that user base that you are focused on.

Right.

And so you're out there, you're advocating
for the company, you're learning, you're

absorbing, you're hanging with the peers.

Ideally, they're falling into
that very perfect target audience

that your company is looking for.

and you're bringing everything that
you're learning back to the company.

And I think that there's often that,
that gap or that void where the insights

aren't being brought back to the company
so that we can continually improve

what marketing is working, what sales
tactics will work, what products.

You know, feature, should we
pivot to, should we bring in,

what are we not considering?

Right.

and so I think a really good Devereux
program, although yes, lovely job,

I've had it for the last 10 years.

It can be really beautiful.

It also is a job where like you are
tasked with driving some sort of

objective or some sort of results.

Right.

And those results need to be clear
and the company needs to see that.

And so that kind of speaks to sort of
the, the COVID trends we were seeing

in which Devereux was created and that.

That impact was just not as
visible as it needed to be.

Matt: Yeah, once again, I have, and
I'm curious on the, on the exterior,

if you can comment on the exterior
of the WordPress community, but I

am lucky enough, obviously to have
the role that I have at, at Gravity

Forms to do this kind of thing.

and I also come with,
you know, once again, I.

I've been like, building community
and connecting with others for over

a decade, having run my own agency
and then just like, doing this

whole podcasting thing to just keep
my ear to the ground of WordPress.

Which It's very hard to like
quantify that to your boss,

Tessa: It

Matt: you know, but it, but it's
such a huge part of the, the,

the relations, you know, phrase
in developer relations, right?

It's like, I spend my time talking to
people and understanding the market.

So that I can relay this back to product.

I can relay this back to marketing.

I can relay this back to C suite
to understand what's happening

over here in the WordPress space.

So I find it easy in the WordPress space
because it is big, but also insular.

And we have a tight group of people and
I can stay connected to these people.

But I can, I can only imagine
that that might be difficult.

So, on the exterior of WordPress,
like other platforms, other coding

tools, other technologies, is it
challenging and how do you quantify that

relationship part in this whole thing?

Tessa: Yeah.

Ooh, that's a loaded question.

you know, I think when you look at
sort of these, you know, thinking about

WordPress, I think WordPress has this,
this ecosystem and this community around

it that makes it feel so tight, right?

It makes you feel like when you're there,
when you're hanging with those people,

you really, you feel connected, right?

You feel very well connected.

I think that's the beautiful thing
of WordPress or, you know, has.

Has has been the beautiful thing
in WordPress most recently.

Maybe that's shifting.

We'll see.

but I think that, you know, when
you're in these other ecosystems,

it's no different, right?

They're all the same.

There's always, there's this, this
sort of, ecosystem around anything.

Right?

And is this kind of like where
you're, where you're asking sort

of, it feels like it's easy to stay
connected in a WordPress, but maybe

not as easy in other, other spaces.

Matt: Yeah.

Yes.

Tessa: yeah, and I think
that it can feel that way.

So going back to when I was in
WordPress in my prime, right.

I had shifted out of WordPress and
took a role at CircleCI, right.

I was like, yes, I'm nerding
out on this CI, CD stuff.

This is fun.

I love it.

WordPress played a pivotal role in
my career from the beginning up until

I, you know, moved on to that role.

And honestly still does.

I have WordPress clients today.

I was worried about that.

I was worried getting out of an ecosystem
that I was so deeply tied in and so

deeply, I don't want to say known, but
then my connections were deep, right?

they all happen.

Everywhere you go, because at the end
of the day, if you're the kind of person

that thrives on that, you enjoy hanging
out with people, you enjoy meeting

people, you enjoy being a part of that
ecosystem and bringing all those great

insights back, you're going to find
your current, no matter where you go.

it can feel scarier though, right?

Because you're going into something
new and you're still trying to sort of.

Forge that in, but, it's
actually interesting.

I've been pulling together sort of these
just one off developer events where I'm

like, Hey, just come hang out because I'm
realizing how much we like deeply miss the

community driven events and engagement.

and so, I think honestly, when
you're looking at other ecosystems,

it's no different, right?

It's just like, how do we start
to dive into that ecosystem?

Who's.

Who are the players in there?

And right.

How do we just put ourself out there?

And I think that's the
biggest thing, right?

And I think that's why, like, you're so
great at your job and why you are so,

you know, able to do like, what is like
such a fun quote unquote job, right?

Is this because you're able to go
out there, build those relationships,

understand what businesses need
from all of your experience, right.

And be able to bring that forward.

And I think if anyone has those
chops or those, you know, in

interests in doing so, right.

Like you're going to have that interest,
no matter what ecosystem you're in.

Matt: Yeah, let's start to talk about
some of the challenges, but we're

going to keep it with you first.

And we're going to keep it under the
umbrella of developer relations here.

When you're looking for clients, do you
have to target clients that understand

what community means to their brand?

I can imagine like some, you
know, software company being

like, we need developer relations.

We don't know anything about community.

We've never invested in it before.

I can imagine that's like, you know, a
WordPress freelancer going, I'm going

to go build a website for a restaurant
because their website is terrible.

But then you find out that restaurant
website owners are just way too busy.

They don't have the budget.

They don't have the
technical understanding.

So it's a bad fit for a client.

it looks like.

Oh, obvious low hanging fruit.

And then you get there and it's like,
Oh, this is just a rotten apple.

This is not going to help.

is that the same particular challenge that
you might face when you're trying to find

customers that just don't get community?

Tessa: Yeah.

Ooh, that's a good question.

Okay.

So yes, that is very much a trend and
sentiment in what I would say, Would

be in more established companies.

So in throughout my career, I
have been at what I would say

is more established companies.

I've been at some startups, right.

And I've also been at
some enterprise companies.

Most recently left Snapchat, where I
was leading the, the AR SDK over there.

So it's like a pretty big deal
working with enterprise companies

to get that integrated and such.

So different.

So coming into, I would
say sort of middle.

Stage startup into enterprise
and sort of beyond.

Absolutely.

There's like a, there is definitely
a shift that you have to start to

almost like forge with them around,
Hey, here's why developer relations

is valuable and sometimes they
have technical founders, right?

They, they, they're years from it
because they're established companies.

Right.

But they, they forget.

They like forget what it's
like to be a developer.

They forget what it's like
to sort of be this user.

That's like, yeah, I don't want to
hang out with sales or marketing.

And I kind of just want
to find my crew, you know?

and so, yes, however, in
my scenario, I targeted my,

Essentially my target audience.

So I didn't have to do that work
because I'm so burnt out on that work.

It's something that in DevRel is
very common to have to advocate for.

Here's what DevRel and
here's why we do it.

And here's how developers think.

And it gets exhausting, right?

It's like having an accountant constantly
having to tell you, you have to do your

taxes, you have to pay your bills, right?

Like no one wants to chase down someone.

Matt: want to lose weight,
Matt, stop eating pizza.

It's just like, oh yeah,

Tessa: but pizza, so good.

Matt: good.

Tessa: but in my business I focus on
early stage DevTool technical founders.

And so I did that for, obviously,
you can probably figure out a number

of reasons, technical founders.

I want to hang out my peers.

I want to hang out with other devs.

Cause I'm a dev.

but then on the early stage, right.

They're not thinking about, Oh, community
versus not community versus whatever.

Right.

They're thinking about growth.

All they care about is growth.

They need to get developers
to their platform.

They don't really care
about the technique.

They just want to know what's
going to be the best approach to

drive that growth immediately.

And so they're eager.

They're, You know, they're
scrappy, they're fast moving.

those are my people.

And so in that case, I don't have to
explain it to them because they, for

the most part are a lot closer to the
original days of building their product.

They're a lot closer to being a developer.

and now there are a lot of really
great resources, out in the

world that are really speaking to
DevRel and why it's so valuable.

And so most of them come in with some.

Some understanding that
developer relations and community

is going to be valuable.

but if they don't, it's still us talking
about, Hey, you have to be where your

devs are because they're not going
to, they're not going to come through

ads or these other technical channels,
not technical, normal channels.

Matt: right.

I want to try to pull together the
experiences that you, that you have

now sort of outside of WordPress
and, how it might relate to the,

the WordPress listener that, that
we have, listening to us right now.

I was talking to, my writer, Eric
Karkovac, earlier today, and we were

just like, Just talking about the
industry in general, and one of the

things that I still see today in the
WordPress world, I stumbled upon a plugin

that I just found interesting, never
heard about it before, but I hit the

pricing page and it was the typical 47.

97, 147 for the price, and I'm like, okay.

Are we still doing that in 2024?

Like, are we still, that's what
we're still charging these days?

We all realize we're
heading into 2025, right?

And like, sustainability and
survivability is like, a thing, and

like, making money isn't bad, and
the prices should go up, because the

prices of my bananas have gone up.

so certainly this piece
of software should go up.

Is there a thread there that you, that you
see now being on the exterior of WordPress

learning from all these other bigger tech,
outfits, or even the startup outfits that

you're working with, that you look at and
say, Hey, WordPress, get, get a little

bit better with this thing that you're
doing, whether that's pricing or packaging

or presenting to, to your end user.

Is there a thread there that,
that you can pull on that from

your experience these days?

Tessa: Yeah, I love what you said there
because I was definitely picked up a

lot of what you were saying in terms
of, you know, sort of the advancements.

yes.

And so here's the thing, like, and I spent
a great deal of time in Drupal as well.

and before that in Joomla, so I've got
like just a great deal of sort of the

open source kind of that vibe, right?

The people are different.

And so I think what's really interesting
about that is that we see in WordPress,

a very open source mentality type
of a pricing structure, right?

Which is very much what you're
alluding to the, I'm just going to

charge you a little bit of money.

And maybe even sometimes you're getting
a lifetime license, or even sometimes

you're getting, you know, all the bells
and whistles for 47, which, you'll

never see that in big tech, right?

Absolutely.

We'll never see that.

And there, there is, there's
good and there's bad here, right?

And I think that when we look at the
WordPress community and the people who

are, who are the developers who are
used to the open source kind of model

and methodology, even in big tech, you
will see them not charging as much.

You will also see them
giving away things for free.

You will see them, you know, building
big, beautiful projects with no

monetary value, because that's the
mission and what they want to do.

However.

There's always going to be that, right?

There's always going to be that
open source version or that free

version or that freemium version.

I think that in the cases of
WordPress, I think that what is

happening is that folks feel like
because the ones that may be vocal or

the ones that they're experiencing.

Are the ones that only want to pay the 47
and this is very much where it comes into

a lot of the work that I do in my business
in the early part when I'm working

with a client is the market research.

How can we understand the value
at which a tool or a product for

a developer is providing and what
are they willing to pay for that?

Like I actually go out and talk
to their target audience and

I'm like, would you buy this?

I don't say, would you buy this?

Cause that's a horrible question.

You want to ask the question,
you want to ask the question of,

is there value in this for you?

And if there is, how do
you envision using it?

Right.

And then from there, there's the
followup question of, okay, Hey,

yeah, let's dive into actual pricing.

What are you willing to pay?

And I think that oftentimes WordPress.

Generally, right.

We'll just go with, Hey,
here's what my peers are doing.

But at the end of the day,
WordPress is like, was it 43, 44?

I can't remember the exact percentage now
that WordPress is, is hosting of the web.

Imagine that like huge, big brands.

I mean, we've got Coke, we've got Disney,
we've got just huge brands, right?

They're not.

Carrying about a 47 plugin, they need
the functionality that they need.

Now I can't necessarily speak to Disney
and exactly what plugins they need and

how they build their infrastructure
and how they care about that.

There's lots of great people that I know
have been on your show that can, but when

you think about it from that space, I
think what happens in WordPress is they

just get so stuck in, this is the way.

This is the way this is how we price and
we're always going to do a Black Friday

sale, which also I just laugh about
because like why Black Friday really like

devs are spending money all the time.

Like I just, the Black Friday
thing just makes me chuckle because

it is such a a constant thing.

But at the end of the day, like
I'm not thinking about buying

a tool on black Friday, right?

I'm thinking about buying a
tool when I'm in the pain point.

I have that problem and I need
a resolution and I'm not saving

that pain point for black Friday.

So it's, it's, it's interesting to me
that, you know, some of the trends and

things that we see in some of these
open source communities versus what

we see in big, in big tech, right?

I could go on for a
long time on this, but.

Matt: when I, when you, when we first
DM each other on Twitter, which was

a nearing about a month ago, before
setting up this call, you mentioned that

you could share some challenges without
name dropping, any particular clients.

Are there particular challenges in 2024
that you're seeing across the board, from.

The brands that you're working
with or customers you have

worked with outside of WordPress.

We just talked about like some of the
challenges that WordPress has, but what

are the challenges in your space that
clients might be running into for you?

Tessa: Yeah.

Oh, that's a good question.

So I have a couple of
things, AI being one of them.

Let's come, well, let's come back to that.

Cause I know that's kind of a

Matt: I like to leave that to the end
because I know the listener wants that.

so

Tessa: they want it.

Let's make them wait for it.

Okay.

So let's talk about that.

I think one of the biggest
things that I'm seeing from.

Is around sort of our
economic times, right?

Like we are seeing a very strict
tightening of budgets in big tech,

where those budgets used to be a little
bit more loose, a little bit more.

Yeah, it's fine.

Go take people to dinner where now
it's like, who did you take to dinner?

How much did that cost you?

Where did you go?

Did you stay within budget?

Where's the receipts?

What was the value you got
out of that conversation?

Right.

And, and years ago, we
didn't see that as much.

I think we, we still saw it.

There's always been a scenario
where people are, you know, shifting

and hustling and whatever, but.

and so with that, what I've
actually learned is VC change.

So a lot of venture capital trending and
a lot of different investment trends.

previously you could show traction,
Hey, I've got users, I've got users.

I'm retaining users that haven't churned
users who are continuing to find value.

and maybe they weren't always
a paid user where now those VCs

are like, what's the revenue.

And it isn't about adoption.

It's about revenue.

We want to see adoption plus revenue.

and I think coming back to the
conversation we just had around

pricing, right, that's everything.

If you're, if you're in a space where
you're looking to get funded, I know

WordPress and VC funding are not always,
you know, in a combination together, but

should someone be thinking about that?

That's definitely those trends now of
like, we used to be able to just prove

adoption and now we need actual, they
want to see those dollar bills, y'all.

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I feel the same way about, Yeah, you
know, it's, there's so many correlations

between like what I see trending in,
let's say content marketing again,

because of like AI and just like attention
and just so much stuff happening.

So many people from years
ago, were like, Oh great.

I have, you know, whatever the number is,
I 10, 000, you know, downloads or 10, 000

views, whatever it is, 10, 000 page views.

And I would say that these
days you probably see half,

if not less than half of that.

And now you're focused on do
these people actually want to.

Read this stuff.

Do they really want to
engage with my content?

And that's like the obvious thing we
should have all been wanting from the

beginning, but we got so caught up in
like the vanity metrics and whether that's

like on that money side, the money line,
like you just talked about, like we just

raised 50 million and it's like, great.

Are you profitable?

Tessa: Mm

Matt: How are you going to pay that back?

And then same thing with like when
you have like this content, it's like,

Oh, my content went viral and I got a
million views on this tick talk video.

It's like, well, great.

Did are you engaged with that
audience member or did that

piece of content just fly by?

And it's It's like, it's whatever now,
it's just like, it doesn't even matter.

You'll never get that person
to buy or engage with your,

you know, with your product.

And there was such a push for
like, help me create viral content,

help me raise all this money.

And you know, a lot of us on the
sidelines who weren't doing that, we're

going like, wait, is this the right way?

Are we,

Tessa: Yep.

Matt: what are we building with this?

Like what, what are you
expecting out of this?

And it's, it's, I don't want
to say it's funny to see that

getting caught up now or.

Or that catching up to that now, but
it's just like yeah, sometimes when

you see all this stuff And you're
wondering is this a false floor.

It's probably a false floor

Tessa: Absolutely.

I cannot echo that enough.

That actually speaks to exactly
what I was referring to in terms of

like the dev rel of the 2020, right?

They were great.

They were getting views.

They were getting subscribers.

They were coming in,
watching the live streams.

They were reading the content.

They were previous to COVID
hanging at the events that existed.

But, GitHub stars were like a huge metric.

Oh, do you have GitHub stars?

What the heck does that even tell you?

GitHub stars tells you nothing
that someone was like, I

might build with this one day.

It doesn't mean anything.

Right.

And now it's like, what does that
actually mean, which speaks into or

sort of leans into had three trends.

One was VCs and they want revenue.

The second one is what I'm
going to dive into here and

then we'll get to the AI one.

But the second trend,
Is around truth, right?

And I think this is more than
anything we can all relate to

this, especially with the election.

Everything we have going on
is there's no trust anymore.

And so the sort of, Oh, okay, cool.

I'm going to trust what you do is gone.

And it's more of like,
I don't believe you.

And so when, when an immediate
reaction for someone is, I don't

believe you and I need to validate.

And it's not that they're
like, Oh, I see you.

And I think you're a liar.

It's just more like the initial
sort of, Trust that we had

inside of us as has dissipated.

And now we want to question everything.

and I think that makes business
really, really hard, right?

What used to be a little bit
easier, there was an inclination.

There was sort of a, a curiosity, right?

And that curiosity would
take you down a path.

And now that curiosity needs to be
pretty validated and actually pretty

warranted for someone to come in and
actually want to do business with you.

which gosh, we could really
dig out a whole bag of worms.

And you start talking
about trust in this regard.

Matt: Yeah, I grew up in car sales.

So, like, listen, I've been on both sides.

So I totally get it.

Like I totally like get it when
people just don't trust you as

like that front person and they're
just like, nope, just here.

Give me the best deal.

I got to leave.

Like there's, there's nothing
that fortifies you for running

your own small business.

Then like selling cars in New
England, in the, you know, dead of

winter, nobody wants to talk to you.

Nobody wants to be outside looking
at this car and they just are

at odds with you immediately.

Like the chances are just so slim,
you know, to, to land a deal.

and you're like, no,
like you can trust me.

I'm trying to do this.

I'm trying to do right.

We're not like this
high pressure car sale.

I want to get into car sale, but it's
like not a high pressure car sales,

family owned and all this other stuff.

And they're just like immediately
coming to war with you.

And this is, this was me in car
sales, like literally 25 years ago.

That's, you know, how long it's been.

And, it's still, you know, the
same, you still see that stuff, you

know, you know, happening today.

It is, it is crazy.

but trust is massive,

Tessa: that's a perfect analogy.

Honestly, the world is more like a car
sales transaction than, than it has ever

Matt: Ever been right, right, right and
and like listen, I and also I like I am

as somebody who grew up in that space

You know, it's it oftentimes, you
know, you're dealing with let's say

contractors or other small businesses
and You know, you're just like, I don't

know, dealing with like, I'm dealing
with a plumber a few months ago.

And it's just like, half of me wants to
be like, where the hell are you, man?

Get here.

Fix my problem.

Why did you charge me this money?

Why did you show up and say you could
do this if you can't do this job?

Right?

But then the other half
of me is like, I get it.

Like I get why you're stressed because
you're a small business and you got a

gazillion things going on and you're
just one person You know, and i'm always

like at odds of like where I draw that
line you know when i'm dealing with

people and it's Yeah, I really think
like one day if I ever write a book it's

going to be like why everyone should
be a car salesperson You know step

one be a car salesman first to really
learn what it's like to go through the

throes of you know, one on one human
interaction in a non critical sale sales

environment, like non critical meaning
like this isn't life threatening thing.

You have choices.

you know, and, and yeah, there's
a lot to lots to be learned there.

And I could get on that car sales
soapbox for forever too, as well.

But trust also sort of goes into this
like whole AI thing, which I'm sure in

your world is, you know, Disrupting it
at an even faster pace than maybe even

WordPress with just like so many people
onboarding and starting a bit I've seen

so many AI businesses doing things.

I'm just like wow, there's you're doing
that, too But I also have to remember

is that a false floor over there?

So, how do you transition into
AI with with all of this stuff?

Tessa: Yeah.

Ooh, I love that.

Is there a false floor?

There is a little bit of a
false floor, I think still.

and I think, you know, in terms of kind
of back to the VC conversation, I would

say of, of the trends there, like most
of the folks that are getting investment

funds are, there's some capacity of like
an AI you're either serving an AI use

case or your tool is actually, you know.

Powered by artificial intelligence
in some way, shape, or form.

I would say about 50 percent of my
clientele falls into that bucket

too, where they're building something
in that AI ecosystem or space.

I think what's interesting about sort
of the trends and what I think is funny.

So before I jumped on this call, total
developer thing where I was like, and

you can relate to this, like, you know,
referring to sort of maybe not being

fully technical chops, but still like
you have that ambition and desire to

like build things and create things.

I was using Bolt, which I don't know if
you've heard of Bolt, but there's like.

Matt: Love it.

Use it all the time

Tessa: Do you?

Okay.

So,

Matt: all the time

Tessa: okay.

Like I have used it a couple of times.

I built something for my husband.

Cause he does, so he does AI, but he
does cattle artificial insemination.

So we joke about how he's in
agriculture and I'm in AI technology.

but I built him a tool that's
like a timing calculator, right?

10 minutes, boom, done.

All it did was say.

His protocols are very timed, right?

So one thing has to be done exactly.

Set number of hours after another.

It was hard to communicate
that to clients.

So we're like pop the first
time in and you'll see what the

rest of the times look like.

Super great.

Right.

Really easy.

And I'm like, that seems simple.

And then I'm like, okay, let
me see if bolt can do something

bigger and bolder than this.

So before we got on this recording,
I was actually in there and I was.

building out, what I do a lot
of times is like, I do a lot of

channel listening for my clients.

And so what that means is that
there, there's a pain point that

their product solves, and I'm
listening for those conversations

that include that pain point.

So I can say, Hey client, you should
go engage in this conversation.

And so I wanted to build out
essentially this channel discovery.

I was like blown away at like
it bringing in Reddit APIs

and some of this other stuff.

And, you know, outside of my own curiosity
and things, it's very interesting to see.

and understand sort of technologically
what we can start to sort of

cut out and what we can't.

And I think that The trends that I'm
seeing in AI is that there is a lot of,

you know, there's a lot of companies and
leaders and, you know, the boards, the

VCs, the investors, the ones pushing for
the big decisions who are like cut, cut

at all costs, cut people, use AI, but at
the end of the day, what I'm realizing

is that if you don't have sort of the.

Capabilities to validate and verify AI and
what it's doing, that it is not something

that you can use as a cutting out source.

It's more of a supplement.

So for me, it's made my
role a lot more efficient.

And I think for other companies,
they're seeing the same.

Yes, they can use AI in a developer
workflow to start to build

things with different AI tools.

But a developer that knows what they're
doing still has to validate and verify and

be involved in that process to understand.

So I think that, you know, your listeners
likely, are in this space of like.

Oh my gosh, what should I be investing in?

What should I be spending time in?

How should I be leveraging it?

you know, and if I can share any insights
there, I think there's so many different

tools and I think just taking a step back
and saying, Hey, what do I do in my day

to day workflow that I can potentially
bring into some other solution, whether

it be content, writing, ideation.

Writing emails, et cetera.

but in terms of, you know, it cutting out
our jobs, I think we're, I think we're

years from that, but I do think that we
are definitely seeing an evolution of

growth where we can, we can definitely
do some pretty cool things really

Matt: yeah, I noticed you
didn't say we're decades away.

You said years.

So,

Tessa: not decades or years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm going to say less than five

Matt: Yeah, I'll say that is, yeah, less
than five, the, the, the long would be 10.

But, yeah, certainly two things that, that
actually Bolt has really exposed me to,

I, you know, went down this path of, you
know, learning how to code outside of AI.

I think it's important, again, for my
role at, at Gravity Forms to understand

like what people are doing, and how it's
going to impact Gravity Forms, right?

I mean, can you make
a form plugin with AI?

Yes, is it going to have
the same attention and scale

that Gravity Forms has now?

No, because the same appreciation that
I've uncovered for WordPress actually

building out my own standalone React
apps through Bolt and Cursor and, you

know, use Bolt as like the front end
ideation and then Cursor to implement the

more like strategic parts of it is what
I've been doing the last month or so.

you know, yeah, you can build these
standalone things, but that's it.

Like you're the you're the human
responsible for it now you created

it and if you don't know what
the hell you're doing You're not

gonna be able to think about what
comes next in that passing moment.

You've made something awesome, right?

But with WordPress, you know,
you would look at it and go.

Oh, this thing is 20 years old.

This is monolithic app
It's you know, it's old.

It's lethargic.

Okay, totally agree But it's like 10,
000 people plus have it touched this this

This app that is running and sustaining
and people are still caring about it.

Your little app that you made,
sure you made a wordpress with chat

GPT, but it ain't going anywhere.

Right?

And, and it's just that, like it's done.

And, you know, you're
not going to sustain it.

Now, eventually.

I'm sure, you know, these platforms
will say turn on the sustainability,

module and it will continue to think
and evolve it for you, which is, is

the scary part in an amazing part.

But, you know, until then, it's like you
still need that human interaction for

these critical parts that, you know, the,
the human brain needs to, to interact with

because, as powerful as it is, it's, It's,
it's just not going anywhere further than

where your prompt left it, I guess, if
you're the uninitiated, that was a long

rant, but what I wanted to get to was.

What this also has exposed to me is
what I saw early on in, in the WordPress

world, which is like, now I'm learning
about all these frameworks, right?

Next, JS, you know, React, like all this
other stuff and all these little pockets

of communities that exists, just like
we see in WordPress, but they're like

tiny little thousands of tiny little
pockets of communities that exists

for all this other real world coding.

And what this AI thing has done is the
same thing page builders has done to

WordPress because now I'm seeing it.

On the outside, where people going,
Well, if you don't understand

how to use this stuff, You
shouldn't be coding in AI, right?

Which is the same thing I heard like
15 years ago, When people were like,

if you're using a page builder, You
don't know how to build a website,

you shouldn't be doing this.

And I'm like, where have
I heard this before?

Oh wait, I said that, 15 years ago.

To somebody who came in with like,
Beaver Builder, or page, well back

then, It was like page lines, or thesis
theme, And you're like, you didn't

do this right, All you did was buy
this on ThemeForest, and launch it.

You know, until I got educated obviously
and understood like how people learn

and now people are learning like
this with this kind of technology

It's just interesting to see how
humans react to maybe not gatekeeping

But they're like I've put 10 years
of sweat equity into this and now

you just showed up and launched a
react app with bolt That's not fair.

Right?

No real question there, but I don't
know if you have like a Comment

on where that world is heading

Tessa: Oh gosh.

I, I very much do because actually
what, where you were all, what

you were sharing was like, Oh
yeah, it's all back to that trust.

Right.

It's like, absolutely we can use AI.

And I, I laughed because, because
I understand what you're saying

of like, Oh, page builders, you
don't know what you're doing.

Right.

Because we all sort of like, we get
into this space where when someone

comes in and they can do something.

Better and quicker.

It's like, wait a minute,
should we trust that?

And then that all comes
back to that trust, right?

Is it's like, yes,
we're all going to grow.

We're all going to evolve and
things are going to change.

And there's all these other use cases.

And I think that we forget that like,
we're one, we're like a one person and

we're using something in the way that
we're using it, but we don't think

about, Oh, people who can't, you know,
build something or people who don't

understand how to, how to build a
WordPress site without a page builder or

how to build an app without AI, right?

But I think what, you know, what I think
you brought a really good point to is

like, you can build all these things,
but just because you build it, it

doesn't mean they're going to come right.

And so I think that that's the point
of all of this, of we can create these

really great things and it's awesome.

But at the day, we still have to be
humans that can build a business.

We still have to understand the use case.

We still have to understand
our target audience.

We still have to know who's willing
to pay for that tool, what they're

willing to pay for it, we still have
to show up and do the marketing.

And yes, we can hire AI to
write our content, but that's

not how marketing works, right?

It's all these different
things that go into it.

And so when we build these things
and they are new and they are early,

there's a lack of trust coming
back to that other trend, right?

And I think that when we do start to
build these things, that's, that's

essentially where I feel like.

Both politics and AI have created
this lack of trust, right?

Of can we actually create things with
AI that has a person behind it that is

trustworthy, and utilize it in that way.

So I think that's my commentary there
is like through all of that, it's

all, it's all been trust, right?

How should we trust this?

Hmm.

I question this, but what is it that
we can do to bring a lot of trust to

what we're, what we're doing with AI?

Matt: I like to blame the bad car
salesperson before, that started all

of this stuff before AI and politics.

Tessa Creasel, built4.

dev, you can go to built4.

dev, if you want to
connect with, her services.

Anywhere else you want folks to go to
say thanks or to connect with you online?

Tessa: I'm pretty much everywhere
across all the socials.

So if you're on LinkedIn, blue sky,
Twitter X, whatever the heck you're

on, I'm Tessa K 22 and most of
those, but happy to engage in chat.

I'm a very friendly and personable person.

so reach out wherever you're hanging out.

Matt: Fantastic stuff, thewpminute.

com, thewpminute.

com, slash subscribe to stay connected,
and we'll see you in the next episode.