The WP Minute+

Matt: Mark Szymanski with
the marathon sprint today of

live streams and recordings.

Welcome back.

Matt Medeiros.

Always a pleasure, brother.

Thank you so much.

Sorry for cheating on you earlier.

Then you

Matt: were live streaming with,
uh, the one, the only Kevin Geary.

And, uh, I want to, we want to talk
about some of the stuff that you guys

chatted about today, not about the
YouTube character guy, but you know,

obviously the WordPress stuff, then you
and I were just on the, What was it?

The second or the third you,
like WordPress YouTuber team

meeting, whatever that means.

And we're going to talk about
a little bit about that today.

Folks who are hearing this, uh, and
watching this, that meeting happened

today, but you probably won't see the
recording I'd imagine for another week

or so, um, so you're hearing some of
the results and some of our literally

raw reactions to that, that meeting.

Um, before it, you've actually seen the
content of it and it's not all bad, but

we're just reacting to some of the stuff,
um, as we demystify WordPress seems to be,

uh, the, the journey many of us are on.

It's like understanding not just
WordPress, the software, but

WordPress, the organization,
uh, the foundation, wordpress.

com, automatic folks like Ann who,
uh, really extend, uh, the largest

all of branches I've ever seen
from, for, uh, from automatic to,

uh, to the WordPress community and
especially to content creators.

So we're just going to chat
about some of that stuff.

Give you that, that, that raw feedback.

Do you, Mark, do you want to just set
the stage to what this initiative is

from and to YouTubers and other creators?

Like, do you have a sense of how
you would You know, pitch this to

those of us, or those watching and
listening to what this initiative is.

I absolutely have a
Interpretation of what it is.

I don't know.

I don't know if it's actually even fully
formulated Um, I want to start off by

saying if anything we say here is I'm
assuming this I would say 100 percent this

goes for Matt, too We're not talking about
like individuals or anything like that.

I think everything that we're talking
about here is like extremely conceptual

Because if we dive into some of
the topics that were talked about

there and everything, like there's
definitely different ways to do things.

And the thing that I have appreciated so
much about what Ann has put together with

these calls here, just in two, two quick
calls, like the amount of like Matt said,

the olive branches that have been extended
and the amount of open communication line

that has been created here is incredible.

And I learned more deep stuff
and important things on that

call than I had learned.

In WordPress.

Interestingly, Matt already knew all that.

We'll get, we'll touch on that.

But the stage, the, the, the, the,
the, to set the stage there is Anne

McCarthy is a employee of automatic.

She has her hands in
many different projects.

She does a ton of great work there.

And she set up kind of like a uniting
WordPress YouTubers initiative.

And all it is is basically
calls that get recorded and

then ultimately post on YouTube.

But it's with people like myself, Matt,
Kim Geary, um, WP Tots was on there.

Imran, um, It wasn't on today, but
like a lot, a lot of, a lot of big

names, Jackson, Jamie Marsland.

So we're all on there.

And basically we were on there
today with Anne McCarthy, Aaron

Jorban, who is a core contributor.

Um, I apologize if I get any of these
titles wrong, but Nick Diego is also, I

believe a heavy contributor, automatic
employee, you know, better than me.

And then also I believe did,
was there another one Hector?

forgetting his last name, but I think
there was a fourth that are all like

very, um, in the know, so to speak,
like their core contributors or they

are automatic employees and sponsor,
you know, automatic sponsored.

Um, and we don't, I feel like in this
space now that everything has gotten

bigger, we talk a lot and we speculate
a lot, but we don't talk enough to the

people that are actually either making
decisions or in the know, so to speak.

And I just loved that because
I thought that was fantastic.

Now.

We could get into some of the details.

Did I agree with all the details?

Was I confused as hell?

For sure.

Um, and I know other people
on the call were as well.

But, um, but the fact that it's, it's,
it's way different to speculate and

think that this is going on, like, like
certain things are the way they are

because whatever, and then actually
Get the answers like the answer you

need that you need that because then
it's a totally different conversation

And it's like actual fact based stuff.

So I love it.

I thought it was great and we
can dive into it But we're you're

Matt: well, I want I want to lead
with because I forget the the crumb

trails of conspiracy theories.

I've left Throughout either all of
my content or on like other channels

Podcasts and YouTube channels, but
I think what we're seeing is the

unfolding of or unpacking of a greater
initiative dating back to when Josefa

did her talk at the State of the Word.

Uh, it was, I think I even said
this, maybe it was the last

show that you and I were doing.

It was, she either did this last State
of the Word or the One before that,

where, you know, she recognized in order
for WordPress to thrive, it's going

to need that, that community aspect
all over again, like the, there's no

feature that's going to happen anytime
soon where everyone's gonna like, Oh

my God, like, this is the thing I want.

And all of a sudden WordPress
trajectory is going to go up, um,

nor should they just rely on like the
software, the features to do this.

So I think there's this, uh,
uh, overarching, uh, initiative

internally at automatic.

Um, directed from Matt down to Josefa and
then throughout the, you know, whatever

lieutenants or whatever you want to call
them and Nick, rich, um, all these folks

who are much more in the community these
days, like doing hangouts, creating

YouTube videos, doing blog posts like
her source of truth that and does, I

think there's an initiative to engage in
content creation and content creators.

in the space.

Now, my LinkedIn just told me Matt
report hit the 14 year anniversary today

or yesterday or something like that.

This is a long road.

This has been a long road and
I'm not the only one there.

Obviously, there's many other
people who have been doing this.

But piggyback off of, um, some of the,
um, the rants that not rants, but the,

the, the, the very passionate remarks
from Kevin in your earlier live stream

today, where he was saying things like,
Hey man, we're like, they should be

building WordPress for agency owners
and professionals because we're the

ones bringing people to WordPress.

And there was content creators
out there who say the same thing.

Like if it weren't for my content,
This audience wouldn't exist.

People wouldn't be amped up because no
one at dot org is doing that kind of

like cheerleading the way agencies and
freelancers do it for their customers

and the way us content creators do it for
like the hopeful average wordpress user.

Um, so this is like 20 year, like
15, 20 years in the making where

automatic is finally saying,

Oh,

Matt: yeah, like, let's work with these
folks who have criticized us in the past,

um, or, you know, or have crazy conspiracy
theories or, or have made great content

about us and nice content about us.

And finally, like, let's,
let's dig our heels into that.

into that community because we need them.

Like suddenly we need them, um,
because there is no marketing budget.

There is no Wix ad for a
WordPress equivalent to a Wix

ad in a Super Bowl or whatever.

Um, and I think they've finally,
finally have realized that.

And that's this initiative rolling out.

Is it perfect?

No, it just started.

Let's.

Be honest, it just started.

Um, but with like the MediaCore
and what, with Anne's doing and now

the announcement of Jamie Marslin
being the head of WordPress YouTube.

I don't know if I really love that title,
but we can unpack that in a moment.

We're starting to see oh by the way,
WordPress needs us content creators.

There's also a very, very big initiative
to Kevin's um, um, to appease, not

appease Kevin, but to hopefully
make Kevin a little bit happier.

This is a big initiative at Automatic
for Automatic for Agencies, right?

And this is, this big outreach happening
to connect with the agencies more deeply

in the Automatic realm of things, VIP.

com, Jetpack, et cetera.

So it's like, yeah man, we've
been, we've been wanting this

connection from Automatic for years.

And we're starting to see.

the start of these, of these dominoes
starting, um, you know, to fall, which,

Hey, it's great, but I will be also
on the sideline saying like I've done

for my entire professional WordPress
career is I will, uh, I will keep you

at arm's length, uh, and understand
like what you're after so that I'm not

going all in and I'm getting the rug
pulled out of me out from under me.

Um, and that I'm not, you know, Just
giving up all kinds of, uh, you know,

resources for something, uh, that
is ultimately benefiting literal

YouTube channels of, of other folks.

Uh, so that's where we're at.

Uh, that's how a lot of this stuff is
playing out, at least from my perspective.

And, um, I think the call was, went well
with, with the lineup that we had today.

Really wish there was more time.

And this is just like the human
issues when you have like 15 people

on a, on a call and I was going to,
I was going to make a joke, like

the title of this episode should
be, can I just jump in a minute?

Because that, that's what it was at,
you know, as everybody had like these

great, like, uh, you know, thoughts
and stuff for, for the questions really

wish Aaron would have, um, been able to.

expand more for the folks on the
call, how the whole apparatus works.

That's why I brought in one of my
questions about, Hey, can you explain

like track versus get hub and why
we're there and how we ended up there?

Um, so the, the idea behind this call,
I think was to inform YouTubers on how

the apparatus works so that we could
sort of pass that knowledge down to

our own audience is, is, you know,
what I was getting out of that call.

Okay.

Yeah.

A lot there.

Um, we need 15 more of
those calls in my opinion.

Oh yeah.

To even scratch the surface.

So that's the first thing.

The second thing is, uh, it's a
small, it's a small point, but I

think that I agree with what you're
saying about the, the initiative, but

I think it's important to say that
at this current moment, it's not.

It's not an initiative that we know.

It's still kind of based on
perception and speculation.

It's not like, um, it's, we, we
should have asked quite frankly,

and we will on the next one.

Like we should just ask like, Ann, is
there a A consorted effort to do X, Y, Z.

Like we are kind of seeing, like,
is it, is it, cause I think, cause I

think like we could be seeing something
and it's like actually no way we're

just throwing shit against the wall.

Like everybody is doing something
that looks like it's all tied

together, but not at all.

That could be the possible,
that could be a possibility.

I'm not a hundred percent sure.

So it'd be great to get
some clarity on that.

Cause that is a good thing because then
that might tell us some things and we

might be able to, you know, like help
accordingly contribute or whatever.

Um, So, I mean, if we kind of dive
into the call from the top down, I

thought, again, it was incredibly
insightful and incredibly interesting.

I thought the, the minds and the
questions that we had on the call and

you guys can watch it, you know, we'll
link it up or whenever, when it's,

when it's live and I'll share it out
on mine, I'm sure Matt will as well.

Um, I thought it was really
good in all of that sense that

it was extremely eyeopening.

It was extremely interesting, but if I
could summarize, like, what I What the

overall call taught me was just like, I
am like kind of shocked at the, like, it,

because all of the things that people have
been saying, like, why don't we do this?

That is not at all what, like,
apparently the core team of

WordPress thinks WordPress should be.

And at the, at the core of WordPress,
it is very opinionated on what it

should be, which I'm not, I'm not
saying any of this is right or wrong.

I'm just saying what I learned here.

We bring up the philosophy page, which
we should show, like, you know, just

type in WordPress philosophy or whatever.

And, and it, and like I didn't read
it in full, but like it got brought

up and we were talking about it.

And that is not it.

Like I didn't even understand like the
concepts got came up about like WordPress

being obviously a blogging platform
before and now it's still kind of is.

And there's a sentiment that every
website on WordPress should still

kind of be a blog, so to speak.

To at least the point that it's still
kind of the main concern even though

like the words blog are no longer there.

We talked about like everything
that everybody comes up about the

CMS, like the CMS should be better.

And the sentiment that I got there was
that they, like the core team kind of

does agree, but at the same time, that's,
that's, it's more of just a base, like

platform for people to grow off of.

Which again, I could see some,
some reasons to say that.

But.

The main thing that I would say is that
from the people that I know on that,

on that call, the questions that were
asked is that the way that the core

team of WordPress, whoever is like
making those decisions, those opinion,

like literally the sentiment, the, the,
the, the opinion of the core team is so

far different than most people that I
associate with in the WordPress space.

Like it's, it's not at all the same.

It is absolutely not in
line with a typical agency.

Website situation, which, which is
not necessarily a bad thing, but it is

just different and that is extremely
eyeopening to hear that directly

rather than it being speculated.

And I know that you, like I
messaged you during the thing.

I was like, are you learning in this call?

Are you, are your eyes being opened
or did you already know this?

And you said, Nope, I knew it already.

And I'm like, that's crazy because like
I'm learning and, and I think a lot of

other people learned on that call too.

And it was just like.

I don't know how it happened, but maybe
it's because like the core of WordPress,

the actual, the, the, the marketing, so
to speak, that is, or is not existing

in WordPress is not opinionated,
but the philosophy is opinionated.

So then what has happened, happened over
time is that creators have interpreted

WordPress and use it in a certain way.

And then they give off the vision of
WordPress, but it's not actually in

line with the philosophy of WordPress.

Right.

Which is, uh, interesting,
to say the least.

Yeah,

Matt: it's, it's 20 years of,
you know, a messy room, right?

It's just like, the whole philosophy
thing, like, I've known Aaron,

you know, for my entire entirety
of being in, in WordPress.

Um, So when this philosophy, and I have
it pulled up right here, and I'm not going

to read the whole thing, but, uh, it will
be linked up in the, in the show notes.

Just go to wordpress.

org slash about slash philosophy.

Uh, the, the out of the box, great
software should work with little

configuration and set up WordPress is
designed to get you up and running fully

functional in no longer than five minutes.

That was like the famous five
minute installer from decades ago,

designed for the majority decisions,
not options, clean, lean, and mean

striving for simplicity deadlines,
not arbitrary in the vocal minority.

And then our Bill of Rights, which are
the four freedoms, uh, of open source.

Um, check that out if, if
you've never seen it before.

And, and maybe this is why, and
maybe I was explaining it to you

wrong early on, cause I remember
when, like, you and I first met, we

were talking about all these things,
WordPress, and we still do it today.

And I say, that's why, cause
WordPress is not a product like this.

WordPress is not a product that's
being designed the way that

you think it's being designed.

It's a product.

Nuances, like everything else, yes,
automatic, largest contributor, et

cetera, et cetera, but, and maybe
it's because I've already forgotten,

this is the messy room thing, like,
I've already forgotten so much about,

like, where it started and, like, the
philosophy and, like, all of these things.

Um, So there's that like maybe I
was explaining it to you wrong,

like this is why it's not a product.

This is why you can't in there.

You know, when we first met, this is why
you can't wrap your head around it because

it's not a bricks or an element or where
they're like, okay, here's the roadmap.

Give me your feedback and
we'll just do this because it

just doesn't exist like that.

And there's the benevolent dictator of,
of Mullenweg and any open source product.

project like this, like a Drupal with
Dries Butart, um, and Linus, or Linus

from the Linux kernel, which powers
Linux, um, there's that, that level of

dictatorship, benevolent dictatorship,
where Matt Mullenweg has crafted this

idea, and it has spawned many different
iterations over the last 20 years, right,

he is still the visionary behind this,
And then there's like the, the, like

the core committing, you know, team that
is sort of executing, but still against

the backdrop of like this philosophy.

I also don't disagree with it being
a blog first platform, but go ahead.

You, you react to that and we can
talk about the, the blog thing.

I mean, I,

I would just say that, like, uh,
I, I was sitting there and I was

thinking, Okay, this is really eye
opening because if this is all, like,

actually a philosophy, I asked the
first question in the con in the, in

the conversation, and I was like, Okay.

Because as soon as the philosophy
thing was brought up, I was like, and

there were some comments made about it.

I was like, okay, so has this
been the philosophy for 20 years?

Has it evolved over time at all?

Anything like that?

20 years is a long time.

And like, I don't care how visionary
you are in 20 years, because Matt

Mullenweg has done an incredible job
and he's, he's done, Amazing things.

This is, we're not, I'm not
discounting anything WordPress.

However, times do change and needs
change and just the world changes

and software absolutely changes.

So I'm wondering like, like it's like,
just did the 20 years ago, did this

philosophy, like as it's changed a
little bit and it was mentioned that

some things were amended or whatever,
like, do we still agree that that

is like the actual best of all that?

But as I say that, when
I say, do, do we agree?

I guess that doesn't matter.

Because I'm actually really
confused actually on that.

And, and I think that I'm
understanding it now, but I still

don't have an answer for it.

I still don't have a full lab.

So let me try to explain this.

Like we have Aaron Jorban, incredible
dudes done so much for the, for the

project, as I understand and everything
he is kind of representing the core.

What is the core contributors, core
committers, core team, core contributors

that I have core contributors.

So.

Are we saying that the core contributors
are the ones that actually create

the opinions of the software?

That's right, right?

It's fair to say that?

Matt: No, it's not.

So, okay.

They, they are the ones, I mean,
they're, they are a very vocal majority

of like how things are going to get,
literally, first of all, they're the,

they're the last line, the last mile
that actually commits, like technically

speaking, they're the ones that
have the power to commit the code.

To WordPress, right?

Um, our friend of the show, Brian
cords, you know, great developer, but

they're not just going to, Oh yeah,
take your code and throw it in there.

Um, it still has to be obviously
vetted through the chain.

And then the last line of literal
defense of like, who can get code into

this thing that impacts millions and
millions of sites are these people.

Then they are also the ones that are from
the broader perspectives, looking at the

bigger features that are being built.

I don't know.

block API, notifications API, um,
obviously Gutenberg, um, whatever

like major pillar features of
WordPress and functions of WordPress.

They're the ones that are sort of, I
guess, overseeing that, those things.

And then within those camps are
the dozens, if not hundreds of

developers who are like, Working
towards whatever that goal is, right?

So like we bring up, um, what's
the, uh, the migration, um, not the

data liberation, data liberation.

So that's like a, a project and like,
you know, anybody could just pick

that up and start building their own
plugin or code piece for WordPress that

says for the data liberation project,
this is what I'm going to build.

It's going to take Wix to WordPress,
WordPress to Wix, um, you know, and

those core contributors would once it.

Gets up to the chain.

They would be the ones that look at that
and evaluate it and say, yes, this is,

this is good enough or for WordPress core,
or maybe, you know what, this is going to

stay in a standalone plugin that you're,
that you'll just operate on the side.

Good job.

You run it as a plugin.

You maintain it as a plugin,
but it's not, it's not reaching

into, into core right now.

Um, you know, and again, Mullenweg
still, um, The one sort of painting

the big picture for all of us and
then the core team are the ones that

kind of look at that and go, okay,
this is what you want to execute.

We're the team behind that and
then we'll advocate for the rest.

I gotta stop.

I gotta stop.

Like, this isn't, this is another
one though that I feel like we

should have asked this question.

Maybe we can.

I, is, is what you just said
there speculation or is it true?

Yeah.

Because you know that for a fact that
Matt, that Matt Mullenweg is still like

the guy he's still like doing everything.

He's the release

Matt: lead.

He's the release lead on every
release except for one, I think.

So like 6.

7 is coming.

He's the release lead.

Does that, is that true though?

I mean like, is he actually doing that?

Is he actually doing that?

Or is it, is it like a, it hasn't even
the release lead on like every single one.

Matt: Yeah, or something.

Yeah.

Yep.

Is it just ceremonial at this point?

Or is he

Matt: actually like, it's a good,
I mean, it's a good question.

Is it ceremonial?

You should interview him, but
I, I should have asked that guy.

Um, I, you know, I think it's a little
bit of, it's ceremonial, but there's

also like, if there's a something
there that is not going according to

his plan, then he could step in at
any time and be like, you know what?

This is not really, this is not
really the thing we should pursue.

Yeah.

Or at least be like a real,
obviously, you know, it's like

your boss say, how's your job?

And you're like, it's fine.

You know, don't fire me.

You know, it's like
that same kind of vibe.

Like, it's like, well, you know,
I, I, here's my thoughts on this.

And then a lot of people will react
being a little Matt doesn't like that.

It's, it's a pretty pressing matter.

Um, He's not, you know, I don't
know if he's writing code anymore.

You could literally check, um, Track
or, or the, the Gutenberg repo.

You know, I don't think he's
writing any code anymore, but

certainly evaluating it from a,
you know, from a vision standpoint.

I just, uh, you know, again, from
out, from the, from the call, I

was just, I kind of learned that,

The way that I see WordPress and it's,
this is really, I mean, this is really

kind of, kind of messes with your head.

The way that like I've seen WordPress
in my six year tenure, obviously

not as long as everyone else.

Like what I, it's so strange because
like the way that I interpret

it is so different than the way
the core team and the philosophy

of WordPress is like designed.

And then we also, we go a layer
deeper where it's like democratize

publishing and WordPress for everyone.

Which admirable, admirable mission.

But I asked the question specifically
on the call as well, based off a

couple other people that were talking.

I was like, so what is the
actual goal of WordPress?

And again, I don't care what the goal is.

Like I'm not at that stage yet.

Right.

I'm still like trying to gather the data.

Like I need the, I need the truth.

I need the source to tell me.

And then I can be like, okay,
now I know what the truth is.

It let like what, what the
actual goal is according to the

actual people that set the goal.

And then I can be like, okay, do
I agree with that or do I not?

And then, and then we have
another discussion from there.

And the goal that I got was literally
like democratize publishing.

And I specifically asked, is it to get
everyone and more people on the WordPress

platform did not hear that as, as a goal.

And that's fine if it's not the goal,
but that is totally different than

what a lot of people think the goal is.

Because, maybe it's because they're
used to like a product mentality, where

product is generally like, we want more
customers, rather than an open source

project which has like a completely
different type of goal that's just like

out for the good of people democratizing
publishing and all that sort of stuff.

Which again, if that's the case,
it's fine, But if we don't have

that clarity, which now I guess we
kind of do, then we can't have the

same conversation as if we did.

If we had that clarity is the
way that I mean, it's like,

Matt: well, let's talk about like,
I'm not against WordPress being

a blog first piece of software.

Um, you know, contrasted to maybe
like the thoughts that, that Kevin

shared about, you know, it, it can't
be blog first at, you know, it, it,

if people are building websites and
his point is valid, It was literally

the same that I've made many, many
years ago was we're building websites.

We need, you know, X, Y, Z.

We're the ones like for, for every
me, I'm bringing online a hundred,

200, 300 WordPress websites.

Not this one person who
struggles with WordPress and

then gives up on it and leaves.

Like I'm bringing in at
this point now thousands.

At least a thousand websites over
my professional history of helping

clients launching websites, etc, etc.

So I get like Kevin's and, you
know, to your, to a degree, your

frustrations, like this should
be better for web professionals.

Putting that aside for a moment, I think
from the human level, from a, you know,

societal level, um, having a piece of
software that you can install for free

and start publishing your words to
the internet is much more important.

In my opinion, right?

It is literally the anti social network
where you can have your own website,

your own domain name and publish your
words, your thoughts for whatever, you

know, art, hobby, you're in an oppressed,
uh, uh, country where you're, you

know, you need to get these words out
and maybe this is your only mechanism

to do it, you know, I don't know, but
it's the idea of being able for humans

to publish words first and foremost.

Yeah.

I'm still 100 percent around that, which
is why I always sort of push back on you

and I say I don't need core WordPress
to compete with Bricks because that just

takes the eye off the ball of like the
freedom of publishing words for humanity

and by the way, because it's open source,
the third party market system will win.

That's the, that's the beauty of this
chaos that we have is that Bricks can

step in and say, you know what, I'm,
we're going to do it better and let,

for the website, for the professionals
out there, let us serve you.

And I think that's a perfect balance,
um, because publishing words first

is much more important to me.

Uh, you know, for my sons to learn
how to publish and get their stories

out and get their words out, not
fucking TikTok and, you know, Facebook

and all this other crap, like, start
with your lineage of thoughts and

expression with your own website.

That's what I want to see for the entire
world, and I think that's what Matt

wants to see for, with the entire world.

That's why you'll never see I say never,
but that's why you don't see like,

Oh, we're competing pound for pound
with bricks and Elementor and we're

going to get the shadow box in there.

You know, it's not going to happen.

I mean, it, maybe it will eventually,
but that's why it's not like that

same product versus product feel.

Uh, yeah, I mean, I, I, I see
where you're coming with all that.

I mean, the one thing I would say is
again, in their, um, conversation kind of

moved to somehow I can't really remember
exactly to like slightly a page builder.

Thing.

And, and said that her ideal world
was where the page builders extend and

build a top core, which I mean, again,
that's, I understand where that is.

But to me, the way I interpret that
is that the current page builders

like don't fit into that mold.

Now I'm not saying that I'm
not saying, I'm not trying

to put words in Anne's mouth.

I said it on the call.

Like I'm, I'm not, I'm not saying that
she's saying that they're not going to.

Be able to be in their page, voters
and be outlawed or some shit.

And that's not what I'm saying.

But what I am saying is like,
that is, that that is absolutely

different than what I've heard in
like kind of speculation type land,

so to speak of, uh, you know, page
builders, like we, you know, whatever.

And also to your point, like, I'm, I'm
conf, I'm just, I'm still confused on

the whole, like blogging thing and the
platform of the, the core of the platform.

Um, you know, the, the concept of the
CMS type stuff came up with advanced

custom fields and those types of things.

And I mean, again, if it's, if
it's the philosophy of it, then

you really just have three choices.

You got to deal with it, you got to
move away from it, or I guess maybe

you can influence it, but the third
one's pretty hard, so I don't know.

I just, I mean, it,
it, it, it sounds like.

I don't know.

I, I feel your, I feel the democratized
publishing thing, but I think the

way people normally are going to take
that as like, do they think most webs

and it got brought up in the call.

It's like, it kind of sounds like
that's alluding to like most websites

are blogs, which that's not really the
exact point that's being made there.

It's the ability to be able to
like blog or just share your

stuff like you just mentioned.

So I mean, I get that.

Um, but I don't know.

I don't know.

Matt: It's just, it's a weird.

You, you know, 20 years
of an open source project.

You know, it's, if you ever had to like
demo a house or like demo a bathroom and,

and then you, as you start to like demo
something that somebody built a bathroom,

like again, 20 years ago, but you, as
you're breaking all that down, you find

the original bathroom from when the house
was like, well, at least where I'm at

in the, in the Northeast, my house was
built in 1930 and then all of a sudden

it's like, why did they do it this way?

And then you start, Demoing it.

And you're like, holy shit, this was the
first bathroom underneath this, like, oh

my God, it's like, this is what this is
like that technical debt that is carried.

And Jorban said that on the call is we
would carry the technical debt so that

the end user wouldn't have to, or I'm
paraphrasing what he was saying there.

But you have this amalgamation, I
think that's the right word, where

of just like years of people like
coming up with some concept 15 years

ago, it was implemented and just by
the nature of this thing, not being a

purely commercial product or a product
first thing, it's just there, right?

You know, like a lot of
the stuff that Kevin.

Rails Against is just the stuff that is
never has just hasn't been updated because

it's just not enough manpower enough
time and they're trying to move forward.

But at the same time there's all this
technical debt stuff that's being left

behind and it's, it's just in there
and it's still moving forward and like

they'll get to it when they get to it.

Um, You know, it's a little bit
of an excuse, but it's also the

nature of like this open source
product that we have does, does,

does

Matt: it

have to be like that?

Does it have to be that in 20 more years,
we're not going to rebuild anything.

We're not going to have a legacy problem
product project or anything like that.

We're not going to have, like,
we're going to have in, in, are

you saying that in 40 years time?

We're going to have 60
years of technical debt.

It's a possibility.

You know, you think that's like
a good way to go about things.

You think it's the only
way to go about things?

Matt: There's how would you ever, you
would literally have to rebuild from

the ground up and maybe, maybe, you
know, cause nothing is ever permanent.

Like maybe there's a WordPress version
two that Matt comes out with concept and

it's like rebuilt from the ground up.

Do you think we're just too early
into like the technical age that

like we, we were not like, we're
not really arriving at this.

Like for example, Divi.

Okay.

From what I understand, Divi five is
like a complete rewrite of everything.

They realized that, Oh shit,
this stuff behind here is not,

is not keeping up anymore.

It was really good, really innovative
for a long time, but now we need to,

we need to turn this stuff around and
like go our next gen, so to speak.

Do you think that like with something
this large, We're just too early in the

cycle of software that like, certainly
there's been gens of stuff, like

generations of things, but like of a
whole platform that like, I understand the

thought of doing that is scary as shit.

Like I get that, but I'm saying
like, do you think that that is

actually something that shouldn't be
considered because it's just difficult?

Like, do you think like the, the ends
would justify the means of trying to come

out with a version two that potentially
could be still like backwards compatible?

But, or, or do you think the reason that's
not done is because the idea of, and,

and said these words on the call, like we
got to make sure everybody, nobody's left

behind basically, or something like that.

Like everybody comes with us, like, is
that thought going to persist for the

next, like 40 years, potentially, if
you played it out and that would cause.

It's a long time.

I

Matt: mean, it's a super long time,
you know, to, to try to forecast.

I can tell you that from, if
you thought about it from like

a business or brand perspective.

What you don't want to do because of the
reach of WordPress, literally hundreds of

millions of websites across the internet.

Certainly.

Yeah.

What you, what you don't want to do is
like, be like, you know what, I'm going

to rewrite this thing and launch it.

Right.

Because then like, if you think
WordPress has a, has a air quotes, bad

reputation now, If you literally broke
30, 40, 50 million websites because

they weren't upgrading or whatever.

Now it's like, Oh man,
that's a huge, massive risk.

And technically, and I'm not a developer
and I certainly was not involved in any

of these discussions and I, my terminology
stuff ends with the words I'm about to

use, but it's technically going through a
rewrite now, which is why it's so chaotic

because when you get into the game.

We were just getting out, we were
just getting into JavaScript.

Heavily in WordPress, which is all
like Gutenberg, huge debates of

like, which framework react, uh,
you know, what, what are we doing?

We're gonna create something new.

We're gonna pull in this
framework, uh, for JavaScript.

And then that's why Matt said you need
to learn JavaScript deeply, which was

like a whole thing that rippled across
like the developer community because

they were like, what the hell is this?

The JavaScript, um, because
largely up until this point,

it was just HTML, PHP, CSS.

That's all you need to know.

Yeah.

Right?

Largely, and then all of a sudden, like
with the dawn of Gutenberg, it was like,

okay, we can't rewrite all of WordPress.

So what we can do, and again, this
is my non developer, is we can

just plop on this JavaScript stuff
and build a whole new experience.

And maybe, the tide turns where,
You know, I don't 90 percent

of WordPress is JavaScript.

I mean, you know, no idea if that's
even possible, but maybe the tide

is turning where it becomes purely
JavaScript or some other technology

that JavaScript evolves into or maybe
PHP and MySQL evolves into, right?

These, these tech stacks are
really what, Held WordPress to

what it was for many, many years.

That's why you get like the real
cutting edge developers are like PHP

and they laugh at it and they move on.

Um, you know, it might've been an
episode you were doing with somebody

else and, uh, or I was on an episode, I
can't even remember, but they're like,

Hey, when you're hiring engineers,
no one's out there looking at.

Oh yeah, I want to be a PHP engineer.

No one's looking at that anymore.

Right.

They're moving on.

They're like AI, uh, or some
like mobile stack or whatever.

Like they're looking at PHP as like
this old antiquated thing, but it's

stable and still powers a lot of,
um, you know, obviously important

projects like, like WordPress.

Um, so I think we're like seeing
it actively being redeveloped,

um, you know, right in front of
our eyes with, with Gutenberg.

And, um, you know, I think that's
where Anne was, was getting at is that

sort of, uh, across the aisle with
other page builders is, is the same.

And let's, let's remember she's, she's
great, but she's also an automatician.

And part of that ethos is you want
Gutenberg to succeed and, and you have

those probably the same points of views.

If I were to label Anna, Matt Mullenweg,
Lieutenant, um, you're having those

same thought processes as Matt is
like, well, if you want to give back

to this experience, page builders,
don't build your own experience,

build on top of Gutenberg, right?

So it's very easy for a Divi to be
like, Oh, we're going to rewrite.

Yeah, no kidding.

Because you don't have to worry
about WordPress, the whole

like user registration system,
post pages, custom fields.

That's all, it's all, it's handed to you.

And then you build on top of it.

Um, So, you know, it's easy for
these third party tools to, to

re to rewrite and have those, you
know, change their experience all

around or their efficiencies around.

Um, but they're also taking
advantage of the core of WordPress.

I think there's, I don't know
how deep I want to go into this.

Like, I feel like I need to like study
like 16 other open source projects to see

how they Work, but I would not do anything
else after, if I did that, uh, because

it takes too much time, like, I'm just,
like, I feel like, um, still a lot of

people, a lot of the, like the speculation
of the gripes still come from, and these,

again, these calls have been fantastic
at communicating more of it, but I still

feel that there's, there's still a lot of,
uh, demystifying that we still need to do

with like how automatic and WordPress are.

And I know you love automatic.

So like, I mean, you know, like the,
like that, that part of it to me is

there's just such a, like a weird, it's
not really like a conflict of interest.

Cause it's all trying to go the same
way, but it's just a weird situation

where I'm just still not clear on it.

And without the clarity, I
feel like I can't have a good

opinion on it or can't even like
diagnose, like what I think about.

Parts of it, because

you have one philosophy that's for
like the open source project, but

then you have, because automatic is
so heavily influenced on it, right?

There's got to be pieces of that
that are slightly construed in a way.

It's I don't, I don't know how to
exactly formulate it right now.

It's just no, but even

Matt: 20 year veterans haven't right?

And this is that sort of shared

It's like that shared chaos
and opportunity, right?

So it's, I think I made a, an example
to you once, like you can go out to

lunch and if you go out to lunch and
you talk about your business, you can

swipe your business credit card, right?

Loosely.

And if you, if you don't, then
it's like, Oh, I like, or maybe

you pay for your golf, right?

Oh, but you brought a client out with you
so you can pay for his great golf round.

Uh, but if you're just going out,
you're going to the local muni and

you just say, I'm not paying, it's
not going on the company, but I'm

certainly not paying top dollar for it.

Matt and Autumn Matt.

So the biggest issue, and this is what
everybody just has to openly understand

and admit, is Matt is the biggest
variable who sits on both sides of this.

And you simply just have to, like,
Understand that, that it is confusing

because he, he does run automatic and he
started the WordPress foundation and he

started WordPress, open source WordPress.

He loves WordPress.

It has grown so large that he
realized that there's an opportunity

here to keep it, to, to keep it
survive, uh, surviving and thriving.

He needed a commercial entity and
that's where automatic was born.

You don't, you just have to fast forward
20 years and, and, you know, did he

ever realize it'd be worth billions?

Probably not.

Um, did we all know how the tech
landscape was going to evolve and

values and, and, and what the value
of a tech company would be years on?

Did he know he's going to get
180 million from Salesforce?

No.

And all the other millions of
dollars invested into automatic

as a privately held company?

No.

Uh, but this is where we're at.

And the, uh, he treats it just like
that credit card swipe at lunch, where.

He on one half of his brain, he's
giving back to open source where

it's like, I, he is, he's going
to keep WordPress surviving.

Cause I know he wants open
source WordPress to survive.

And then he'll just have his commercial
side where he will eventually say the

best thing here, uh, the best thing for
WordPress is over here at wordpress.

com or jetpack or automatic.

And, and that's how he's, he
has to straddle that line.

That's why it is confusing.

It's like, I think, I think a
lot of veterans understand that

and we're just like, Hey, we're
still benefiting regardless.

Like, we're done looking for
the answer because literally the

answer is right in front of us.

Uh, it's just, it's not, it's
just not really talked about

or, or cleanly talked about.

But we, we've seen it.

We've seen all of the examples.

Um, You know, and I think that you, I
think I said this in the last episode

we recorded, like we got to be careful
what you wish for because if, if people

are like, we need something better,
faster than it's going to be, would

it be a, a vert, a brand new version
of WordPress straight from automatic?

How would you like that?

Like, how would the world react to that?

If all of a sudden he was building a
better, faster WordPress at automatic,

but you had to pay five bucks for it.

Right?

I, I, you know, I know you've
said that before, but I'm kind

of confused on that example.

Because like, I don't know how
that's Because a lot of people

Matt: give pressure.

This is why he snaps, snapped in
the past, and it's why he's like,

sabbatical, and in my opinion, he's
getting a little bit more defeated on

the, on the social pressure, having
seen him evolve over the many years.

Because I think a lot of people
keep demanding things, and I'm, I'm

being like, hypothetical obviously.

But.

Automatic needs to make money.

It needs to survive.

Uh, or there's going to be more
investors and more pressure

for him on the investor side.

So he has to make money.

That's what WordPress.

com is.

That's what VIP, VIP is.

That's what Jetpack is.

Those are the means,
and some other products.

Those are the biggest
means of him making money.

But eventually, it's like, can
he make enough money to have

Automatic survive that way?

Or, You know, with all of this
pressure, people are like, you need a

better WordPress, it sucks, it needs
to compete with all these things.

Okay, maybe he builds it, and
he sells it, from automatic.

How would we feel?

How would we feel?

We

Matt: would probably be
like, well that sucks.

We're saying that's not an
open, that wouldn't be an open

source project at that point.

No, that's what I'm telling you.

Yeah, because,

Matt: because that's what I'm saying.

That's, that's why I keep saying
we have to be careful what we

wish for, when we pressure.

Specifically matte and automatic because
that could, because that is a, that

is literally what red hat Linux does.

That's what Ubuntu does.

Like there are commercial grades of
their software, which are not purely open

source and not downloadable for free.

You have to spend, you know,
thousands and thousands of dollars.

Right.

And that's not the only, there's a
lot of other open source software

out there that operates at that.

Um, So you have to be
careful what you wish for.

I wanna play devil's advocate though.

'cause like,

I don't, I, I just feel like, would you,
would you pay for Word would, if WordPress

didn't change, would you pay for it?

Like if WordPress, if he, if he didn't
make a better thing, like for instance,

like if you just took WordPress, it's no
longer open source, it's it's proprietary,

commercial, whatever in its current form.

Would you pay for that
in its current form?

Yeah, I mean, I would.

Okay.

I would.

So why wouldn't you pay
for it if it was better?

Matt: I would.

Because it's not open source?

I would, but I think a
lot of people wouldn't.

That's the thing.

I think a lot of people would all of
a sudden be like, Whoa, whoa, whoa.

You want to charge me
for these features too?

I mean, we already see it
in the commercial, in the

commercial plug in space.

When people start, either raise
their prices, or they start, they

charge more money, or I can't
believe how much that plug in is.

Like, we hear it with Elementor.

And I, I heard Kevin on one of his
live streams Um, which is one of

the, the, I don't want to say the few
things I agree with, but I certainly

was like, yes, 100 percent Kevin.

When he was like, people are complaining
about Elementor prices regardless

of what you think of the software.

Uh, for whatever the price is, 50 bucks,
60 bucks, or Yeah, it's ridiculously

cheap.

Right, for 300 bucks for 100 websites?

Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, and he's just
like, you're out of your mind.

Like, that's nothing compared to
what you're charging your clients.

Uh, but I think Which you should be

charging your clients.

Matt: Or which you should
be charging your clients.

So, yeah, I mean, I think that.

There's a world where you will see, could
see, where you go to work, like WordPress.

org is the best experiences
to download WordPress powered

by Jetpack from WordPress.

com as the big banner that you
click on and you get this premium

experience that you paid five bucks
for or maybe it just gets associated

to a, A hosting account at wordpress.

com and then, then the fine print
below that is get wordpress.

org for free or get the open source
version of wordpress for free.

Cause that's how a lot of open
source and free software works.

Super limited features.

I mean look at your favorite sass
app that you, that you don't pay for.

Right, like a MailChimp.

Very simple.

The guardrail is there.

12, 000 subscribers,
2, 000 emails a month.

Or whatever the number is, right?

And you hit that limit,
and then you have to pay.

Like, you could see that
in a WordPress world.

Maybe not that harshly, but why not?

And he's already doing it.

Like, Jetpack already has a bunch of
pretty nice features, and the rollout

the experience of a better way to
experience WordPress is with Jetpack.

Hmm.

Matt: So, I mean, that's,
like, that's not on the table.

I'm just saying, like, when we pressure
him a lot, like, You don't know what's

going to happen as him as an individual.

He's so impactful on this software
and this community that he could

just make a decision to be like, you
know what, for profitability to keep

automatic going in defense of wordpress.

org open source, I need another
revenue stream and now five bucks a

website or a buck a website, you know.

I think we need to, I think you need to
talk to him or somebody needs to talk

to him.

And you see it with real questions,

Matt: with a kiss, with a kismet, right?

Which is another one of their
products, which is the spam protection.

It's like you are either using it
on a free site and you just, you say

it's free non commercial website.

But if you're doing a bunch
of traffic, they get notified

and they look at your website.

Is this a commercial thing?

You need to pay for a kismet.

And I actually just saw
a blog post, someone.

Might have been on my Macedon account
where they got notified by Jetpack

that they were running free stats
and free stats on a commercial

site and their stats got shut down.

Um, or Jetpack reached out and said,
you have to pay for the stats if

you want to continue to use this.

It's a business model.

Uh, so are we, are we in favor of that?

Are we not in favor of that?

Matt: No, I'm just, I'm just,
I'm just giving out, uh, an

example of what could happen.

Because what, and I guess what I'm trying
to illustrate is it's like, we're, we have

a good thing in my opinion and, um, like
constantly beating it up for like another

feature or to like compete with a, a Wix
or a Webflow is, is, is not the right

discussion in my opinion, just my opinion.

Hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

Do you, do you, uh, how do you feel
about the sentiment of, do you think,

do you think, I mean, are you worried at
all about like the future of WordPress?

I'm not worried about it, but

Matt: yeah, no, I mean,
I'm not worried about it.

Like Kevin is worried about it.

But I'm not in the agency space
anymore, but I am at obviously at

gravity forms and there's nothing
like indicating to me that, um, that

WordPress still isn't a great choice.

Um, for, for, you know, for all the
reasons is that the third, literally

the third party ecosystem, like the
third party ecosystem is still there.

Like gravity forms is still there.

Page builders are still doing their thing.

Countless, countless other, um,
stop you for a second though.

Yeah.

Is that.

I'm not going to use the word business
model, but how, if you were like, if you

were looking at something and a thing,
okay, a platform and you, and the first

thing that you bring up is the third
party add ons, the ecosystem of that third

party, surely that's heavily weighted,
but is that, is that not in and of itself

like a slight concern that that's like
one of the first things you bring up

and the first things that come to mind?

That like the actual I

Matt: was skipping the open
source part of WordPress, but

that's well certainly that's like
absolutely I mean, that's yeah number one.

Yeah, but I Don't know I mean and okay,
well because we have the alternative

Well, there's a ton of alternatives
But it's but it's not like we're not

the problem with this this stuff is
we're all in it and and none of us are

having a conversation Wait, it's like
we all say We all ask these questions

and we talk about these things, right?

We, we, we feel we're on the platform.

We feel it's the best option,

Matt: right?

You know, like we, like we sort
of knowing what's the best option.

We are like 99 percent there.

Like we're not moving.

We're, we're, we're in it, but like it's
the conversation isn't even about us.

It's about.

The seven other billion people like,
I mean, less than that or whatever,

but like the seven other billion
people that aren't in this stuff that

we're not talking to all the time.

And then like I was talking to Kevin
today, like, like on the live stream,

it's like, that's the question is like,
are those people, how do we like tell

those people and how do we, how do we
communicate to those people that like

this, you could do everything here.

Like you could do it all here
if you wanted to, because it's

that robust, it's that versatile.

Yeah.

But they're not seeing it
because I use this example.

I've said in the live stream today I
talked to my buddy on the golf course.

I'm like, yeah.

Yeah, you know, I make content
on the wordpress Wordpress land.

He's like wordpress.

I thought that was dead.

I'm like, oh, you know what wix is though?

Don't you he's like?

Oh, yeah, 100.

I see it all the time.

So like I mean, I know it's not
marketable in that sense of like marketing

dollars and stuff like that But I
don't know Is there an answer for that?

Is it even worth being concerned about?

Does it end up leading to a situation
it's like a death by a thousand cuts type

thing where it's not just, yeah, obviously
Webflow isn't going to spring up tomorrow

and take 50 percent of the share, but

Matt: I don't know.

I mean, I think if it were that bad,
you would have way more people going,

going to these other platforms,
like go to those other platforms and

build something for, for a customer.

I was just on a call
with my buddy yesterday.

He's on like his fourth startup.

Um, none of them have been home runs yet.

Uh, but he's trying to build a,
uh, a SaaS based business for,

uh, enterprise, like medical and
enterprise payments and messaging.

And he's like, Oh, check
out my pricing page.

I'm building.

He's building it in Wix.

Right.

And that's fine, man.

It's like, whatever.

Like, if that's what, if that's what
you're, if that's what you're using,

Brendan O'Connell, um, brought up a
question during Kevin's live stream today.

It was like, Oh, has
anybody tried statimic?

Yeah, I tried statimic.

It's, it's cool.

It's like cool to have like this
static website builder and you're

like, oh yeah, all of a sudden
you're like, this is great.

Like I build it and it's super fast
and hey, it's got this cool editor,

but then you're like, ah, I need a
form or like, oh, like I want to change

the, I want to put my logo in and
change the header and the navigation.

And instantly you will appreciate
the chaos that you have, even

with full site editing to be like.

Holy shit, I can't even edit my navigation
in this thing without opening up

a text editor.

I got another one for you.

Okay.

Yeah.

I got another one for you.

You and I appreciate the chaos.

Matt: Yeah.

We know the chaos.

Sure.

How many more people do you think
it's, do you think it's sustainable?

I already have the answer to this.

Well, I'm going to finish the question.

Yeah.

Do you think it's sustainable?

Do you think it's sustainable?

To expect more people to

Matt: voluntarily wade
into the sea of chaos.

This is not a website building
platform, like you're thinking.

This is a blogging platform.

That's the answer.

Elaborate on whatever you just said.

What is this?

What is this?

Is this is like right here.

I've got the, I still have the
philosophy page, uh, up for

me designed for the majority.

Many of the end users of WordPress
are non technically minded.

They don't know what Ajax is in order.

They care about the version
of PHP they're using.

The average user WordPress simply
wants to be able to write without

problems or interruptions.

Now we can obviously make the case,
like how fast can somebody do that?

But these things, WordPress.

the lack of features, a lack of options.

Yes.

It's a resource and maybe a
vision thing, but it's also, it's

not being built for you, me and
the Kevin Geary's of the world.

You, me and the Kevin Geary's of the
world will deal with the chaos and figure

out a workflow to sell it to customers.

That's what we do.

This WordPress core itself is made for the
person to start a website, start a blog.

without any costs besides your hosting.

That's the, that is
the building a website.

This is not the vision.

I know it's, it's weird to hear it,
but building a website, like having

a toolbox of things to build scalable
websites, that's not the vision.

It's democratized publishing.

That's what it is.

Yeah.

You got a page and a post, but you know,
and, and users, because Hey, you might

have a buddy who also wants to write.

aren't sports articles, or you might
have a community of people who are trying

to tell the world that their water is
being poisoned by some corporation.

That's what this is for is for publishing
those words, whether it's entertainment

or humanity impacting events.

That's what it is.

It's not about building a website.

We're building nice little
features like full Gutenberg

to make that experience better.

And sure.

Does Matt want to compete with Wix?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the essence is about
publishing and democratizing pub,

uh, democratizing publishing.

That's the answer.

It's never going to be about you and me
and Kevin and my friends and your friends.

Uh, okay.

I mean, if that's, if
that's the case, I mean,

Matt: again, that's my
opinion, but that's my opinion.

That's your interpretation.

Yeah.

Over the last 15

Matt: years.

I would love to hear that
directly, but I mean, I don't

disagree with what you're saying.

I do think that's still, we make the.

We've got to make the clarification
that isn't our interpretation,

but it's logically founded.

So, I would love to, I would
love to, have you ask him

that, or somebody ask him that?

I don't know, I'll ask him, I don't
give a shit, but like, I mean,

Matt: Really, you just go back the
last, just go back the last three

or four years of, of WordCamps.

Uh, not WordCamp, sorry,
uh, State of the Words.

Right, those are largely all recorded.

I mean, those State of
the Words, WordCamps.

org Which, by the way, I got invited to as
part of the media core, can't go because

I can't drop like 18, 000 to go to Japan.

Come on, dude, just look
in your couch cushions.

Uh, but, uh, you just gotta go back
and watch those, those moments in

time, um, of, of the way that Matt is
presenting and, and packaging WordPress.

That, those are your answers.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess it checks out.

Uh, it's, I don't know if it's like,
I feel like it's kind of a shame that

that's not at all what I've ever heard.

Um, it's kind of been like co opted,
not in a malicious way, but just like

because of the, because of the nature
of it and how it's been extended,

it's, it's extremely, we're extremely
fortunate, but it's not at all.

It's so weird.

If you

Matt: all went to Wix or
Squarespace, you would be.

Rattling the same cages that
you're doing in WordPress.

I'd imagine.

Yeah,

Matt: but No, I mean I'm not
saying You don't, you think

it's got the complete package?

You're gonna go there and it's gonna
do everything you want it to do?

It doesn't.

It doesn't.

But I'm, I'm trying to, I'm
trying to formulate this.

It doesn't have that.

But what is the goal of those platforms?

Those are website

Matt: builders.

Pure and Okay, so like that's my, that's
my slight weirdness to this is that I am,

I'm investing my time, energy, whatever.

I'm not saying I'm not, I'm
not saying I'm changing.

I'm just saying like,
that's the fundamental prop.

That's the fundamental mind fuck
with like people when they talk

about this is that we have a goal.

I mean, the literal reason that you
would critique WordPress for any reason

is that you don't agree with like the
goal or the vision or the feature or

whatever the hell you're talking about.

Right.

And it's like, the problem is that the,
the, The, the goal of WordPress is not the

same goal as XYZ that is critiquing it.

Like again, we're talking about
Kevin a lot because the live stream

is today and it's been a whirlwind.

I mean, in that thing he said to me
directly, people, like not, not every,

not anyone can build a website, period.

And I, and I slightly pushed back on him.

I was like, wait a second.

Are you saying that you don't
want anyone building websites?

Right?

I remember.

Are you saying you don't think anybody can
build websites or are you saying that not

everyone can build a professional website?

'cause that's a very big
distinction right there.

Matt: Right.

And it's a larger conversation and
I'm of the opinion that like, I

think everyone should have a website.

I think you should probably get
professional like assistance if you're

trying to do other things, da da.

We can have a bigger conversation there.

But at the core of that, that is
really what you are interpreting to me.

And what we pretty much know now is.

The, the messaging of WordPress and
the actual goal of it is that anyone

can have, we'll say a blog, right?

Anyone should be able to make a blog,
which is valid, which is admirable.

That's great.

Great goal.

But the problem is that being the
goal of this platform and then us, I

say us as in just like anybody that's
building websites professionally

or anybody like has that mindset of
that is not really the same thing.

Because it kind of, it just
doesn't mesh perfectly.

There's some overlap, but then there's
not enough over, like there is a

lot of overlap, but then it doesn't,
it doesn't end up funneling down to

the point where it's like, Oh, we're
just going to like, is a blogging

platform at the very core of it.

Anybody can build a blog.

Anybody can democratize publishing.

It's not an actual website builder.

And then we look at, Oh, we look across
the fence here and we see these other ones

that are like, Oh, they are doing exactly.

They're listening to us.

You know, people like us,
they're doing exactly that.

Now there are four pro, there's
a lot of other pros and cons like

everything in life, but they're
actually listening to people like us.

And that's where like, do you,
do you, what ends up happening?

If that plays out like that?

Do you have like an, any,
any sort of an exodus?

Probably not because you could still
do whatever I guess over here, but

do you have some sort of an exodus
where WordPress is for anyone, right?

So it's like, Oh, that's great.

I can start up a blog for
free and everything like that.

I'm going to contradict
everything I just said there.

I'm going to kick it back to you.

Do you think that that even still happens?

Do you think that there's a large,
a large swath of people in 2024

that find out about WordPress?

This, I have a real, real
strong, like opinion just from

my interpretation on this.

Do you think there's a large
swath of people in 2024

that are, Oh, I want a blog.

I'm going to start with WordPress.

I like, this is the, this is the
actual root of the problem though.

I don't think that actually occurs
and I don't have any numbers.

But we, but we know according to sources,
I don't know, we have, we should get

better data that the number of WordPress
websites being created is going down.

So if it's for everybody, but not
everyone's using it because are we not,

are we not still having an issue here?

I mean, I, I'm, yeah,

Matt: I mean, I don't know.

I saw those, I saw those reports and I
can neither confirm nor deny if WordPress

is, is going down and at what level, uh,
falling through the floor, uh, or just

like losing a few feathers here and there.

Um, I also, we should also say that
like, again, we're in the mindset

of web designers, tech people.

So we see it differently.

We're actually selling
these services to customers.

So we have those strong opinions
and we're in the U S so there's,

uh, there's much more, you know,
whatever, uh, capitalism behind this.

People are like, Hey man,
I'll just buy a Wix site.

I'll just go and get up,
send them to Webflow.

And the rest of the world may not have
that, uh, Level of, of luxury, which

is why, like when I, um, uh, did my
interview with a Manuel from, uh, the

Nigeria WordPress Nigeria, you know,
that, I mean, his number was like 60

percent of the country runs on WordPress.

Why?

Because it's free and
they can get access to it.

It's also important to know.

that there's different levels of where
people can come in and out of WordPress.

So it's like, yeah, you could go and
start, uh, your Wix blog, but then

you mean like, yeah, you know what,
I don't, I don't, I don't really want

to pay for this anymore or whatever.

And I'll, and I'll switch to something
that's, uh, you know, blue host

account for three bucks a month.

And I just want to have this little blog.

I just want to get some poetry out.

That's what I want to do.

So you switched to WordPress.

Um, and WordPress is also like, you know,

That simplicity of starting with a blog,
a lot of people laugh, laugh it off.

But I think it's very important.

Because if one day you're like, I
want to start a blog or a website.

You have this open source tool, this
free tool that you can just learn with.

There's no, I don't have to pay for this.

You can go to playground.

wordpress.

net or download the free WordPress app.

And just literally start learning this.

Whether you're 8 years old or 80 years
old, this is a, to me, again, this is just

my own opinion, my love of the software,
is because you can unpack it, learn it,

and that's just like, what's a domain?

Like, you have to put yourself back
in like the real infancy stage of

like, somebody wants to start a blog.

They learn what a domain is.

That's like step one of the internet.

How do I register a domain?

What's this hosting thing?

This is what it, this
is what WordPress is.

Oh, WordPress is this app that
runs on my hosting account.

There's a database.

I may not understand it, but there's
a database and there's files.

And somebody's starting to quick,
slowly learn technology and

software and how the web works.

And that's a big thing.

You know, versus just go to Wix and
it's just like, oh, it's all right here.

Click.

Buy it.

I don't know what the fuck.

I don't know what it's running.

You know, I mean, it's, I think
it's a, it's an enabler to so many

different paths of life WordPress is.

I know I'm getting a little romantic
about it, but that's literally how

I learned the web was unpacking.

It wasn't WordPress, but it was
PHP, Nuke, and then it was Drupal.

And then it was WordPress.

But the idea was, is all
this open source software.

Uh, and Linux to how to run a server
with Apache learned, uh, learned it

all by reading a book, a physical book
that I bought at Barnes and Nobles and

how to put all this stuff together.

Right.

So it was that open source software that
was allowed me to learn and enhance,

you know, my, my skillset and do the
fun stuff like publish, build websites.

So it's, it's, it's something that
is, you, you can't discount and just

be like, ah, just this blog thing.

It's a, it's, it is a lot more than that.

I'm laughing

at my next question.

Okay.

So

Matt: All makes, all makes sense.

It's all checking out.

Hey, you think I defend WordPress so much,
I'd be the head of WordPress YouTube.

You like, are you, we have a, do
we have a mind link going on here?

Is there a link?

We've been talking way too much.

We've been sending way
too many voice memos.

Um, don't steal my questions
out of my mouth before I send.

Do you, okay, so I have a, I have a pre,
pre, I gotta prime the question though.

Do you think that WordPress as a
platform On a scale of one to 10, 10

being really good, one being terrible.

How do you feel that it ranks on
gaining new users in general, but

I'm more so talking like next gen
users, like, like younger gen.

Yeah.

And I know you, you, you put out this
poll and it, but, and we could just stay

on high level here, but like, what do you

Matt: think there?

Yeah, no, that is a legit concern.

Okay.

Um, it's a legit concern because of
more so on the younger side, I think.

Well,

It's the younger crowd who are developing
and finding interest in WordPress, the

community, and WordPress as software.

And then there's the younger crowd
who actually like, are users, end

users, and why they should use this.

You have social media, who's
just like, consuming content.

Again.

Why it's important that WordPress
focuses on being a publishing platform?

Because the reckoning of social media,
I believe, is still yet to happen.

Um, so, very important that you can have
a, an app that you can quickly install

and start quickly publishing content
on the web, not wrapped in a social

walled garden behind an algorithm.

On the technical side,
why isn't there adoption?

Pfft, you know, Yeah, PHP, JavaScript,
HTML, nobody wants it, right?

They want more advanced stuff.

That, there is, we do have that issue.

We do have that issue of
getting new people on.

But, you know, I'm not a statistician,
but I think, you know, if we're this

big, you know, does that inertia
continue to, do we continue to grow?

Um, When we're this big already
and like, what would happen if

we really shrunk would be, you
know, would things really change?

You know, I don't, I don't know.

Um,

that's what I got.

Obviously, obviously what I'm about to say
is kind of like a gross generalization,

but I feel like you have like an, a
crazy optimistic outlook on people like,

like, like, like it's like when I, what,
the way that I interpret what you just

said is there that like, you think that
somehow, and maybe this is true, I'm just

saying like, but what I'm interpreting
is you think that somehow people are

going to be more willing to spin up
hosting or even just go to wordpress.

com and like start a blog than they are to
go onto like tick tock Instagram medium.

Like do you actually think that that's
the direction we're going to swing

Matt: back that way?

I think eventually the, you know, I
think eventually somebody gets savvy

to the fact that their content is
all disappearing on social media.

If, if you're talking about like,
Hey, this would be a content creator.

I mean, I don't disagree with

you.

I don't disagree with you
obviously, but I'm here with you.

You know what I mean?

Like I don't, I don't, that's
an interesting question.

It's a side topic, but, but okay.

So, um, So I was priming that with the
sense of like, if you, if you do think

that that's a legit concern and you are
at all concerned about the fact that

next gen and like new users and stuff
like that, do you, I would, I feel like

we would both agree that YouTube is at
least a very prime watering hole that

we need to capitalize on, so to speak.

Yep.

Right.

So.

Like, do you think you could go as
deep or as shallow as you want with

this question, but like, do you think,
like, what do you think Jamie as the,

as the head of WordPress, YouTube now,
or anybody in that space, like, what

do you think needs to happen there?

Or like, what, what, like, how, how
do we turn, turn that around, so to

speak, or like, or just capitalize
and leverage on those types of things?

Like, what is the, is there
even, what can we even do?

Like, I don't know.

Matt: Uh, so.

First thing is, is like, I don't
know a head of anything in WordPress,

uh, an automatic, it's a new title.

It's a new title.

It is a very opinionated,
uh, title to be the head of.

Um, that was interesting,
you know, to see that, um,

a lot of thoughts around it, uh, you
know, for the same reasons why marketing

and the marketing team at, at wordpress.

org.

Struggled so much is that you weren't
going to get the data of like wordpress.

org to an untrusted volunteer.

And by untrusted I mean like, yeah,
like somebody who has access to that

data could get compromised accidentally.

And all of a sudden
like all the wordpress.

org data is out there.

Like traffic, keywords, you
know, top performing pages.

Like talk about immense
value of that data.

Um, How can you do a
marketing job like that?

How can you do a marketing job
when you don't have access to the

primary WordPress, uh, Twitter
account or social media accounts?

There's a huge trust factor there.

But suddenly we're just going to like
give the, those like take that same

risk on the YouTube channel, right?

Because in my opinion, yeah, like
what we're doing, very important.

Um, As somebody who's been
doing it primarily audio

for 15 years, 14, 15 years.

Yeah.

YouTube and video still outperforms audio.

Unfortunately, I have my reasons
for continuing to do audio.

Um, for the same reasons why I think
blogging is important because if YouTube

changes shit, then we're all screwed.

Um, so, but my podcast remains, um, so
like giving him like giving someone, uh,

the access to the YouTube account with
that data and that control, that's like.

It's crazy town.

You know, in my opinion, um, when, when
we just saw what we struggled with,

with the marketing group for those same
concerns, like how do you give somebody

the ability to be the brand identity
and the marketing team of WordPress

for free with no data, impossible.

Right.

You'd either have to like, you'd have
to give one thing to make this work.

They can either have the
data and not post anything.

They could post everything, not have data.

All right.

But now you're like, they're the
face of WordPress, but you're,

but you don't have any data.

Now somebody's going to
be the face of WordPress.

If, if it's just, uh, stamp repeat
what Jamie does on his own personal

channel, which is be the face of his
channel, training people on WordPress.

Now suddenly, somebody's going to
be the face of WordPress, which is

what I had said maybe on another
episode with you, was the biggest

lacking feature of, uh, WordPress.

com competing with Wix, or
Shopify, or Squarespace.

When you look at their messaging
and stuff, there's no human

there, it's just WordPress.

Come here because it's WordPress.

There is no human part of that
organization representing the

cool software that we have.

Okay.

Back up though.

Now it's going to suddenly
going to be Jamie.

Are you, are you simultaneously saying
it's, it's going to be Jamie, but also

kind of saying that it should be somebody.

Like we need a face, but like,
you're not sure how this happened.

Matt: Well, listen, and

also, also timeout, we got to stop.

This just happened.

So we don't actually know
what the actual thing is.

Like, we don't know what
it's going to manifest into.

You might just be like telling people
to make videos or something like

separate conversation sort of, but,

Matt: but sorry, go ahead.

Yeah.

So again, this is, this is that gray area.

One foot in commercial land, wordpress.

com one foot in wordpress.

org.

Open source land.

How do you represent somebody?

Uh, how do you represent the open source?

Um, We all know it works
in content marketing.

Personal stories, human interaction,
YouTube, podcast, right?

Human, a human representing
this, the emotions, everything.

So, yes, the answer is we need
somebody to do that for wordpress.

org.

We need people to do that for wordpress.

org.

Not just one.

Not just one, we need many people
across the community to represent that.

That's why I think what Anne's doing,
the Olive Branch, the Media Corps,

taking podcasters, bloggers, YouTubers,
newsletter people, getting them

together, as long as they're sharing
our content, and it's this reciprocal

effect, then it makes sense to me.

So the WordPress YouTube would be great if
it's you, me, everyone, everyone who wants

to, you know, maybe there's obviously, uh,
checks and balances and it doesn't just

get published right away, but there's a
theme of the month and, you know, video

creators are, are putting out content.

Because to just give it to one person is,
is, is a, a deep rooted issue across a lot

of the stuff in, in open source WordPress.

I remember, uh, I was telling you
this in slack when Yoast became the

mark head of marketing for wordpress.

org and they were like,
what the hell, why Yoast?

He has a plugin.

It's it, this is when
he was still running it.

And people like, Whoa, Whoa,
Whoa, what's happening here?

Like this guy's going to be, you
know, the head of head of it.

Um, you know, and, and now.

You're going to bring somebody on to
be the head of, of, of YouTube while

he still gets a YouTube channel.

Am I jealous?

Of course I'm competitive, right?

In YouTube land, we're all hoping our
channels grow and we can, you know, gain

an audience, but to, for somebody who also
is getting paid to do it on wordpress.

com and now on wordpress.

org, now you're getting double
FaceTime across the WordPress brand.

And you can still have your
own YouTube channel that

you're, that you've monetized.

and grow an audience.

I mean, massive brand recognition
to one individual in the, you know,

zero to a thousand really quick.

Um, yeah, it's, and it's just
that it's just one person.

Then you look at community
WordPress community.

This isn't the first time in this
has happened, but it's like, Was

there a job opening for that or
was it like Jamie at wordpress.

com saying, Hey, I did
some cool videos over here.

Or Matt said you did some
cool videos over here.

Now you, how about you
do that for wordpress.

org?

Would I do the same thing as him?

100%?

I jump on it too.

So that's, that's um,
something that like I, Okay.

Correct me, because I don't
have the thing pulled up.

Is it, is it org?

Is there two YouTube channels?

Yes, there's com and org.

So this is for org?

Matt: Yes,

but

Matt: he's also doing stuff for com.

Gotcha, okay.

So, but my thing is like, regardless
of like, Jamie, let's slightly take

that out for a second, like him.

Like, How was that?

And I should have, maybe I should
have asked this on the call, but I

don't know if we were talking to the
right people specifically on the call.

How does that, how does that
decision even get made though?

Like you're saying, like, you know,
like, I don't know, that's a, that's a

question, you know, if it wasn't open or
whatever, but like, I'm not personally,

I'm not of the mind that like, you have
a different opinion on it because you're,

you're, you have a better understanding
of like how the open source side of

everything has worked, should work.

Everything like that.

I'm still fully formulating it.

So from like an actual like business
perspective or just like an opportunity

perspective like I congratulate him like I
don't know if he Asked I don't know if he

was whatever like whatever happened there.

That's that's cool but at the same
time though It is weird because

and I mean this was said on the call
like it's kind of like uncharted It's

like an uncharted area of like content
First, like sponsoring content, so

to speak, or like having somebody
like be a, uh, like the head of the,

the content specifically on YouTube.

So like, I expect them to kind of make
some mistakes, but I would hope that

because it's the open source leg of
it, that there would see, you know, you

can't even make that argument though.

You can't make that argument.

You can't make that argument.

No, you can't.

You can't.

I'm learning because you, you,
you don't get any fucking say

in, in what happens in WordPress.

You don't get any say in
what happens in the content.

I'm actually lost now.

I literally am lost.

Matt: Another, here's another
example from like themes and plugins.

You can't sell themes and plugins directly
through your theme or plugin if you're

distributing it through WordPress.

org.

In other words, if you made a
plugin, put it on WordPress,

just like Elementor, is free.

There's no buy now, you
can't have a buy now button.

Inside of Elementor and just boom
instantly you've bought the license of

Elementor it you have to go you have to
do The little ads and stuff like that

Which we've talked about or I've had
Elementor on the channel before Talking

about like the ads and the nag nags for
AI and all this stuff so you can do that.

There's that Gray area of like you
can have little call to actions

Little or big you you decide on how
much you want to annoy your users.

You can't have like that direct
monetization I'm sure if you're

at automatic You can't be making
a commercial plug in at the same

time as working at Automatic.

Do you know that for a fact?

I am almost 100 percent sure.

That's something

that, that's something would,
like, almost like a non compete

clause or something like that that
would be in the contract, right?

I know, I know you can't, like,
for Amazon, for instance, you

can't be doing anything similar.

Yeah.

Okay, I'm just wondering,
I'm just wondering, I don't

know if we know that or not.

Matt: Right.

So I guess until these
more details come out.

So, you know, with, with Jamie
situation, I look at it, I can only

act on the information that I have.

Number one, blog post
came out from Josepha.

Boom.

There it is.

Okay.

There was no like, uh, job description.

There was no thing.

There was a little announcement from
Jamie on Twitter, whatever, but,

but I see it as like, well, he's a
content creator in automatic now.

If there's an engineer or
developer in automatic right now.

Can they make a commercial theme or plugin
and start selling it on their own site?

Because he is doing the same
thing as a content creator.

He has a monetized YouTube channel
that he monetized through Google ads

and sells direct sponsorships with.

To me, it's the same exact thing.

I'm a developer at automatic
and I'm making a plugin.

I'm selling it on the side or I'm
a content creator at automatic

and I'm monetizing on the side.

It's the same content.

I would have to assume because this
seems like a theme slightly from

the phone call that we just had.

That it's probably a situation where,
like, I feel like this is a good idea.

I'm just talking in generalities
here from, like, an automatic

and, like, a WordPress situation.

This seems like a good
idea, so let's try it.

Even though we don't have any
of the particulars fully set up

for this particular arrangement.

I mean, maybe they do.

I'm just saying, like, from
an outside perspective.

Because the analogy you just
brought up does make perfect sense.

It's whatever to me, but
like, I, this is where

Matt: I, this is where I lose Mark.

So don't agree with anything I
say, because you don't want to

dig the same grave I've dug, which
is to be hypercritical about, uh,

unfair decision making, right.

Or non transparent decision making, right.

Cause I've made a career of, of it, and
this is why, this is why, you know, I'm

not included on, on stuff critical to, uh,
the, the core of WordPress, uh, because

I constantly criticize and, um, but I'm
doing it because it should be open, right?

I was doing this when I was
selling themes and plugins.

I was doing it when I had my agency.

I'm doing it when I have my
podcast, when I had my newsletter.

Now, when I have my YouTube
channel, it's the same thing.

Why, why, why can't everyone
be in the little news widget

on the WordPress dashboard?

Question I've been asking for years.

Somebody said, oh,
yeah, you can submit it.

Yeah, I'm sure I could

Well, you know you got there's

Matt: all this like gray area

Good first thing you got to do is you got
to change it from criticism to critique.

You're start saying well Yes, I've been
using that's the first thing a lot more.

That's the that's the first
thing second thing is I Lost it.

Yeah, I don't know.

Um, I think

Matt: So I'll be interested
to see if it pans out.

And I'm sure like, if Jamie's watching
this or somebody is watching this an

hour and 20 in, you know, my chances of
being included in that might have gone

down a smidge, but you know, I would
say, look, I've been doing it just as

long as, uh, anyone else, uh, on, on
YouTube since 2010, uh, was my first

YouTube video covering WordPress stuff.

And, um, yeah, it'd be great to
see if there's going to be, uh,

a community effort, you know?

The, the, the, the more and more I
talk to like specifically you and

like other people, the more, the more
that I feel like it's just almost an

impossible situation, all of these
things put together, like, it seems

like, you know, you're, you always
come from it from like you're pro

WordPress, you're pro open source and.

You're incredibly
consistent in that thinking.

And I don't want to say it's like to
a fault, but it's like, it's that, I

don't know how that actually ends up
materializing in almost the utopian way

that I just, I literally don't know.

Like we have a, we have a, a goddamn
platform called WordPress and then we

have a commercial entity called wordpress.

com.

Like just there, that was
probably the worst decision.

Maybe not worst is the best way to
describe that, but that is probably the

most confusing decision I have ever seen.

Smartest

Matt: decision.

Some would say the smartest decision.

Could be smartest, could be smartest.

But I'm saying like from, from like a,
your perspective of like understanding

open source, the, the, the, the everything
around that understanding and having

clarity and transparency, the absolute.

Most anti decision.

I could, and I'm not
saying it's malicious.

It could have just been like,
Oh, we just, let's just do it.

Like, you know, we got both domains.

Let's just do it that way.

I don't know how it was, the decision
was made, but like looking back on

it, like the worst decision, like so,
so bad that like it should probably

be changed to something else, like,
because it's so confusing and it

doesn't, it's not even operating.

It's confusing and it's also not like
explained enough to like a lay person.

Like lay people have no
chance at understanding that.

And then people don't need to,
they just need to use a software.

That's it.

Okay.

I mean, fair, but it's not
the same software, so I don't,

Matt: you know, I'll, I'll go back
to the blog posts I did, which I'm

going to continue to reference, I
think for the rest of my career,

what would we do with the keys?

Yes.

What would we do with
the keys of the kingdom?

We go into the opening salvos.

Where I say, the fight
for WordPress is futile.

It's a distraction, really.

One must stop vying for shared
control over the decision making,

the features, and the direction.

You either choose to participate
and leave your mark in the direction

it's being led, contributing,
debating, communicating, etc.

Or simply observe.

There is no clawing away ownership.

So, we, we should take from WordPress
as much as WordPress takes from us.

All at the same time.

Because WordPress will continue
to exist as long as it's being

led in that open source way.

nature.

And we have this community that we find
a lot of chaos in, but it's also granting

us the privilege to continue to grow
WordPress, take from it, give back to it.

And we all carry on.

Couldn't have summed it
up better if I could.

I mean, that's my, that's, that's
my approach, which is why, like,

because I was also, I, I had the
same emotions, KG to take your.

To take your line that KG had when I
started getting to themes and plugins.

And then I did it again when I
was like, why isn't, why doesn't

my agency get the opportunity?

I mean, there was a time where you
couldn't be a VIP partner unless you

were paying in a hundred thousand
dollars to VIP to be a partner.

And I was like, why we have
the same capable people

as all I've seen it.

This is a rinse, repeat episode for me.

Has it gotten any better?

No.

Oh, shit, that's not good.

No, it has.

It has, because largely WordPress
has gotten better since then.

I mean, vastly better.

Um, you know, the community has changed,
obviously, but the software has gotten

better, and third party software
has gotten better, in my opinion.

Hmm.

We're learning a lot.

Well, you're not learning anything.

You already knew all this.

Matt: I'm learning a lot, so I'm excited.

I'm

excited.

Matt: No, I mean, it is great to like,
relive all this and what it is teaching

me is something that I try to employ in a
lot of stuff in my life is to not forget

the fundamentals and like going back and
re living these things and being like,

oh yeah, this is why, because how are
we going to get new people in if like

we're forgetting all the stuff that,
you know, that we've, we've learned over

time, like the philosophy and like all
this stuff, like it is good to relive

that so that as new people come on board.

We can point to that and say, this is
the essence of why, why we're here.

Well, I guess let's keep going.

I don't, I don't know what else to say.

Let's just, uh, do we,
maybe we should stop.

Should we stop making critical
content or critiquing content?

Should we stop, uh, trying
to influence the project?

Then we should just, um,

Matt: well, I'll leave you with this.

I know you got to go, but I'm,
I'm working on a blog post.

I told you about this already.

It's titled, If I Was Running Automatic.

And step one, speaking of
being critical, is to cut all

unnecessary products at automatic.

If WordPress is to thrive and survive,
the biggest contributor to its success

needs to be hyper focused on one thing.

WordPress.

Automatic has many products
that zap the attention from

the core mission of WordPress.

You could even argue that WordPress
doesn't have a chance to focus on its

core mission while trying to play catch
up, refine the product, find the features

end users want, patch all the bugs, etc.

Yet, inside the world of Automatic,
you might find yourself sprinting

from the Tumblr offices to the
SimpleNote cubicle all in one day.

If the product doesn't impact
WordPress at any capacity, it

needs to be under a microscope.

That's just step one.

There's like 15 steps if
I was head of automatic.

But step one, cut all the stuff that
distracts from WordPress because we need

WordPress to survive and automatic is the
best suitor for that, that task right now.

Hmm.

Well, I hope, uh, stay subscribed.

Matt: I'm

excited to hear you publish that.

I hope everyone on the

Matt: automatic squad reads that.

Uh, boy, that'll be out there.

That'll be out there soon.

It's a, it's a long one.

I, I gotta keep editing it, but

nice.

Matt: All right, brother.

We'll, we'll end this one.

This is a good one.

This is fun, man.

I don't know if you, if you,
if you've come out on the other

side of this, uh, any wiser, but.

I don't, yeah, it's, it's a,
it's a life, it's just like golf.

This is a lifelong game, you know,
it's, it's, it's the journey, right?

Yeah.

It's the journey, but always a pleasure.

Mark Zabanski, uh, mjs.

bio.

This guy knows it.

I've been on here too many times.

I love going to it and see the little
changes happening every now and again.

Yeah.

It's it'll be a site there one
day, pretty soon, you know,

wait, there's a new website.

Well it's, that's, that's
my kinda Lincoln bio area.

That's the way bio, right.

So you go there, you go there
and you can see some other stuff.

But Mark semanski.co is gonna be
the actual website going to be.

It's not, it's not very shortly.

Okay.

Just, I mean, depending on when you launch
this or release this, maybe we'll see.

Yeah.

Matt: Um, send all your criticisms
and critiques to the WP Minute

at, uh, the wp minute.com.

The wp minute.com/contact.

You wanna be on the show.

Go ahead and hit that contact page.

Um.

Subscribe to the newsletter, the WPMinute.

com slash subscribe.