The WP Minute+

Matt: Hey John, welcome to the WP Minute.

John: Matt, thanks for having me, man.

Great to meet you finally.

So for folks that don't know, you have,
run an agency for quite some time.

You don't do that specifically
anymore, but now you have this

sort of like turnkey solution,
productized service done for you.

Service called Editor Ninja.

explain like, is that more of like an
agency with Editor Ninja, or do you

like really look at it as, productized
done for you kind of service?

John: it kind of depends
on what your definition is.

Of those, I would say it's definitely,
I would say it's probably more of

a done for you service, but when
I, but I message it as an agency.

We don't do any strategy or
anything like that at this point.

But so we're, I mean, I, I say we're a
production shop, so we come alongside

agencies and marketing teams to help
them produce more on-brand content.

So kind of an agency, kind of
a done for you service, kind

of a productized service.

I don't know, somewhere in there.

Matt: what year did Editor Ninja start?

John: Editor Ninja started in, about five
years ago, middle, spring-ish of 2020.

so it, it was kinda a side project for a
while alongside another agency that I had.

I went, I start, I formalized
Editor n Ninja at the end of 2021.

Started 2022, so we launched
January 7th, 2022 is when I

launched, like the initial kind of.

Designed pickle esque,
productized service.

and we went from nothing to a
thousand MRR the day that we launched.

And, and then, yeah, it was a side
project that started taking more

and more of my time through 2022.

I sold my other agency September of
2022 and went full-time on Editor

Ninja a little over two years ago.

January, 2023.

Matt: So, looking at the pricing page of
Editor Ninja, there are two letters that

gets everybody's attention these days.

That's ai.

I see two, 50 per AI article.

I wanna get to that.

We're gonna hold the
AI stuff for a moment.

What was the name of the
agency you ran before?

starting Editor Ninja.

John: Previous agency was
called Credo get credo.com.

So basically did lead generation for
marketing agencies, really focused on

SEO projects, content marketing, Google
ads and Facebook ads are kind of the four

main that we kind of like focus down on.

And, sending them to
agencies, paying us for leads.

And we got kind of a cut on the backend.

So I built that for, about seven years.

So I, I used to work, full-time in SEO
and kind of digital marketing for an

agency in New York and then for Zillow
for a couple of years, I got laid off from

there, September of 2015, went full-time
on it was called Hire Gun at the time.

Rebranded it to Credo about four
months later, and basically built

that over the next number of years.

the reason why I started Editor Ninja.

Burning out and when you burn out,
you start a new company, I guess,

or at least that's what I did.

basically Credo got to the point
where like it kind of hit about half a

million in revenue and I just couldn't
get it past, get it over that hump.

And I'd been working on it for so long.

I like had a business partner
who then stepped away from the

business and just, I just didn't
have any energy left on it, man.

So I got fortunate enough to sell it to
a, a micro private equity company that

owned one of our largest, customers.

And, yeah, and Editor Ninja was just like,
I needed something to kind of reinvigorate

me on work and kind of had this idea and
had been blogging for a long time and

knew a lot of content agencies and, yeah.

And so just, and I, I know Russ
from Design Pickle and was like,

I wonder if this could work.

Like that model could work in this space.

So I launched it and just
decided to see what it could be.

Matt: Do you remember
specifically that burnout?

Because I think it hits everybody, right?

Like, hits me multiple times a day.

I just wanna like end, you know,
all the content stuff that I do.

but I think it, you know, sort of
varies depending on whatever, like

those, it's, it's internal stress, but
external stresses in, in terms of like.

It's tough running a business
that can get you going.

it's tough building the workflows, finding
the product, like optimizing this thing

and repeating that year after year.

So I think these things can be, you
know, dealing with clients of course.

So I'm wondering, like, do you remember
how this sort of like creeped into

to your entrepreneurial journey?

early on.

John: So this was like,
this was true burnout.

Like it took me two plus years to
recover from it after I sold that agency.

for me it was basically
like, I'm a growth guy.

I mean, I'm a marketing guy.

It's like it's what I do and I spent.

Years and hundreds of thousands
of dollars trying to get the thing

to grow, and it just wouldn't.

And basically what I realized
after the fact was like we had, and

part of it was like we had so many
agencies wanting leads from us, and

I couldn't, I couldn't fulfill it.

Like I, I couldn't figure out
how to generate more leads.

What I realized after the fact,
after I kind of came out of the

fog of, you know, all of it was.

The economics of that business shifted
under my feet through the pandemic,

and I didn't, I couldn't see it.

I didn't realize it, so it just got so
much more expensive to generate leads.

People were so much more skeptical.

It got so much more competitive.

I mean, every Tom, Dick and
Harry like has a lead generation

company even at this point, right?

So like everyone was saying
like, we can do this.

They're promising the world,
they're charging nothing.

They couldn't deliver.

And I was, I just, I was just frustrated,
you know, constantly frustrated.

We tried a bunch of different things.

I launched a course which added some,
like thousands of dollars in revenue.

We launched a low end like lead
offer, like all this stuff.

But it was, it was, I was just
doing all these things really

just to keep the business steady.

and it just wouldn't it nothing like.

Nothing grew it.

And I just, I couldn't do it anymore.

I was just so, I was so done.

So yeah, so I got fortunate enough
to, to sell it and then moved

full-time onto Editor Ninja.

and yeah, it, in the time between like
selling Credo and moving full-time

onto Editor Ninja Che, GBT launched.

So it, like, it changed the
game, but we can get into that.

Matt: And I definitely wanna get
into the chat, GPT and AI stuff.

I think for the folks in the WordPress
space, oftentimes like the challenges

of running a business, whether it's
like a small freelance agency space,

business or a small plugin, we really
kinda like fall in love with the process,

which also makes it really hard to.

The process, the
technology, the community.

We just, you know, I think a lot of
people just like romanticize this space

because we've been in it for so long.

We've been building this
business for so long, whatever.

And, it's hard to recognize
when things aren't growing,

when that failure is happening.

We kinda feel it, but we
aren't recognizing it.

Or the burnout.

Right.

It doesn't, failure and challenges.

I just wanna make sure there's
two distinct paths there.

So do you remember like this distinct.

Inflection point in your journey
where you're like, oh yeah, this

is, this is actually hitting.

Was it like you looking at the balance
sheet going, oh, this is not like

working as a business, or was it like
something else that was happening?

John: I would say it's
much deeper than that.

I'd say it's actually when what you
want it to be and what you want it

to mean in your life isn't reality.

What I mean by that is like, so there are,
I mean, there are a lot of, I know a lot

of developers, I know a lot of the, like
the, you know, big WordPress like, you

know, plugin creators and all that, and a
lot of 'em, they're like, yo, I'm happy.

Like, this thing's making me 150 KA year.

I don't have to deal with anybody else.

Like, it's pretty automated.

I can build some features and all of that.

I can do a little bit of
marketing when I feel like it.

And I'm good.

Right?

And if that, if that's you,
like, awesome, guess what?

You've won, like you've won the game.

But if it's at 150 KA year and you
want it to be at 15 million a year and

you have no idea how to get it there,

probably time to burn the boats.

You know, and, or, or not even not
burn the boats in terms of like, go

all in on it necessarily, but like,
might be time to, to do something else,

to like, you know, to shut it down or
to realign your expectations, right?

Because, because Credo was like half a
million-ish a year in revenue, which was

great, but I wanted it to be 5 million
a year and I couldn't get it there.

And so that was like, that disconnect
is what really, like did it for me.

You know, I'm not like, I'm, I'm
not happy just making 150 KA year.

You know, I wanna be way more
successful than that and like that

vehicle wasn't gonna get me there.

So Editor Ninja might, you know, at
least like the, the possibility of it

getting there was way more attractive
than the, you know, the, the reality

that Credo was not gonna get me there.

Matt: So as a former agency owner
for a decade, like I totally can

see like where systems break down
or you have no systems at all.

there's no process, there's no
optimization of like finding clients,

pre-sell clients onboard, clients start
to build a project, iterate on the

support, launch, all of this stuff.

I think this is what's so appealing
about a product I service or simply

just like working on the business
instead of working in the business.

To use a cliche phrase, but I'm
curious how much like going into

Editor Ninja versus Credo I.

Where you felt like, well, if I make this
like a product I service, or I at least

build these systems around it, I'll,
I'll, I'll be able to be happier and,

and more, successful with this business.

Like when you went into Editor Ninja,
how much of that was on your mind?

I.

John: Yeah, it's kind of
a combination of that.

And I would actually say that
productization is much more about

how you deliver the thing rather than
like how you price it and all of that.

Productization also does not, and this is
a common misconception, is productization

does not cut off the possibility of
doing custom work as well, right?

Like, 'cause we have, you know, we
have our pricing set out, but we have

people that come to us and they're
like, Hey, I need a quarter million

words a month for the next four months.

I'll quote that.

That's fine.

Right.

And like, you know, and, and we, we've
had some of those and so I can do that.

And so I basically, I have like an
enterprise like offering, right?

It's like you have something big,
something custom, let's chat about it.

So, but for us, but productization is
all about just how you, how you deliver

it at scale, but also like your pricing
should mean that it's profitable.

I think for a lot of agencies
though, it's two things.

One is they need to define.

What they do and who they do it for.

And I'm, I'm, I'll be completely
honest, Matt, I'm going

through this process right now.

It's like we've gotten to, mid to high
six figures a year with Editor Ninja

right now in just about a couple years.

So I've kind of gotten to the point
where Credo got to, and so now

it's like, okay, who do we best
serve and what, what do they want

and what are they willing to pay?

So I'm, I'm literally going through
that right now over the last couple

of weeks, talking to a lot of
like agency owners and marketing

leaders and, and that kind of thing.

so there, there's that, like you
need to focus down on like what

specifically do they wanna buy?

How do they wanna buy it, right?

And then how can you
deliver that at scale?

But for a lot of agencies, I.

They need to differentiate
themselves from others, right?

If you're just a WordPress agency working
on, you know, B2B websites, like you're

not differentiated at all, your pricing's
gonna become a race to the bottom.

You gotta figure out who do
you provide the most value for,

and then your prices can go up.

and so really for most agencies, it's
not about cutting cost necessarily.

'cause what I see is, especially a
lot of small agencies, they, they

can't, they can't cut people and keep
delivering work and all that, right?

So what happens?

You need to raise your prices so
you can get that margin in place.

And that comes through messaging changes.

It comes through targeting people that
have more budget, that kind of thing.

And I, I get the like, but I wanna help
the little guy like, yeah, me, me too.

But like they, they don't
really have any money.

And, and I mean, you and I both know,
like the people that have the, the

lowest amount of the, the least money
they are gonna be, they're gonna want

the most, they're gonna need everything
'cause it's their last dollar.

It has to work.

And they're, they're gonna
be the quickest to churn.

So.

As much as like, I wanna help
out the little guy as well.

Like the big guys are the ones
that can pay the value it the most.

and so, you know, you kind of gotta
pick which one you wanna focus on.

Matt: Alright, we're kind of like
halfway through the episode right

now and I want, and I realize I
haven't defined what Editor Ninja is.

So what is Editor Ninja?

What's the value prop?

I.

John: Yeah, so we're a content
editing and writing company.

we started just focusing on
editing, so companies that

are already producing content.

so it usually means they're producing
20, 40, 60 plus articles a month.

we've, we have some that are
doing more than that and they.

Either have like one in-house
editor and they can't handle all the

volume, or they sign on a big client
and they can no longer handle the

volume or their editor left and they
can no longer handle the volume.

Those are our best customers.

People that come in and they're like,
we've never worked with an editor before.

I'm like, I don't, I don't know
if we're the right fit for you.

Right?

Like, go hire a couple freelancers and,
and, and then come back to us, right?

So we're kind of that middle stage between
like freelancers and like having someone

or someone's full-time in-house, and
then usually the ones that have someone

full-time in-house then need the support.

That we offer.

so we do that.

It's a lot of like marketing,
blog articles, service

pages, that sort of thing.

I layered on writing, so blog article
writing mainly, about a year ago.

Just 'cause we, we were getting requests
for it and, and agencies kind of want

it all like in one, in one place.

So we offer human written and also,
AI generated with a heavy, like human

like editing layer on it as well.

We offer that as well.

and that side of the business
has actually grown really well.

So at this point, like.

We mentioned at the start product, I
like, you know, started as kind of a

product eyes, like on demand, you know,
unlimited, like the unlimited model.

editing got us to, to a certain
point, but it was tough.

Churn.

Churn was really high.

and so kind of what we've settled down
to is like, we'll do that on like, you

know, a significant volume of content.

but a lot of people want an editor
to work directly in their, in

their already established services.

So we have what we call
a dedicated editor.

So basically it's.

Kinda an hourly model.

You buy by a chunk of hours.

And then if you go over that, then
we basically bill by the hour.

and then on the writing side, you
know, very, very similar sort of thing.

So you give us the brief, you give
us the keywords you're going after,

give us the style guide, all of that.

and then we go and, and write it and put
it to our human editing layer as well.

Matt: Alright, so I have to admit,
for all of my WordPress career,

going back to my agency and then
working at Pagely and podcast hosting

company, and now at Gravity Forms, I
often hear marketing teams, clients

and myself say, I need a writer.

I need somebody to create content.

Put it on a page.

And hopefully that helps us rank
an SEO and informs our customers

and our potential customers.

I never hear anybody ask or
look for, I need an editor.

To assist.

So what's the value prop to get somebody
to say, oh, I need an editor now.

Like you spending time convincing
them they need an editor, or are they

coming through the doors these days?

. John: Yeah, I mean, they do need words on
a page, so like, I wouldn't, I, I wouldn't

say that that's not a, a thing, and that's
actually part of why I, I launched the

writing side, but on the editing side,
basically what it comes down to is I.

Is your content, is it correct?

Is it updated?

Is it, yeah.

Is it, is it correct?

Basically is the big thing.

Like is it on brand?

So are all of your headings
formatted the same?

Like, you know, is it free of typos,
like are commas where they should be?

All of that.

And really those are the details that
when you're writing you really don't see.

But those are the ones
that can make or break.

basically the, the performance
of that content, not necessarily

from like a ranking perspective.

And I think too many people
are still too focused on like,

is it going to rank in Google?

Like, yeah, that's important, but like if
it ranks in Google and then they come and

it's unclear what you do and it's unclear
what the, your arguments are, unclear what

you're trying to say, and you've got typos
and unfinished thoughts and all of that.

That content's not gonna convert for you.

And so it's basically worthless.

So that's where an editor comes in
and basically about like, Hey, this,

this doesn't really make sense.

We should have an internal link here.

We should get an expert quote here.

Like that sort of thing.

and that's where content really like,
goes to the next level and shines.

'cause anyone can crank out like a bunch
of generic crap with AI these days.

Right?

So what stands out is the stuff that's
actually like first person, you know,

it's, it's, it's clear what you're trying
to say, has experts in it, all of that.

And that's where an
editor really comes in.

Matt: Again, I'll use the editor
ninja page as a, a learning device.

for the, for the listeners, one
of the things I really like is

you just can't go to your pricing
page and just sign up, right?

There's no, just like, buy
now, put your credit card in.

It's, have a call, have a discussion.

Why, why do you have that?

And not just a quick sign up.

John: Because people wanna
know who's doing it for them.

and a lot of people have, I mean,
everyone thinks that they're

a special snowflake, right?

Like, I've talked to enough people at this
point that I'm like, I, there's nothing

that you're gonna come to me with, with
content that I haven't heard before.

I mean, I've been in the
space for 15 years, so like.

But people want to, they, they
want to know, like specifically

like how does this work?

Who am I gonna be working with?

What is my pricing?

Like, that sort of thing.

We have had various, like self signup
options in the past, but we just got

a bunch of junk and it was a bunch of
spam and it was low quality stuff and

expectations weren't set and all of that.

So we just decided, hey, let's just,
let's make it a sales led motion.

Let's actually talk with
them about what they need.

And then basically we
have these different like.

Kind of modules or elements of what we do.

So like the writing plus editing, we have
a few that they're like, we need articles.

And usually it's like we need 20 some
articles over the course of a quarter.

Right?

Like I, I thought it was gonna be neater.

One of my hypotheses at the start
was like, people are producing

like four or eight or 12 articles a
month, and so that's like kinda the

consistent editing that they need.

What I've found is actually like.

It's more spiky than that.

So they'll do a bunch for like three
months and then they'll kind of back off

for a few months and they'll do more three
months later and, and that kind of thing.

And, but in bigger enterprises,
they're also producing other

content that they need edited.

So if they're like, Hey, we need, so we
have one, one customer in particular,

I'm thinking of that they need like.

24 articles within a quarter, but then
they also have about another 15,000

words, a quarter of content that other
teams are producing that th that this

team was responsible for editing.

So like, we're just gonna
send that to you as well.

So we kind of create like a custom package
for them, you know, so, and yeah, so

it's, it's not as like, as tight as like,
You know, 4 95 a month for X article for

X words per month, that sort of thing.

Like, then you get into like rollovers
and if they've only used like, you

know, 10,000 of the 15,000, then
they're like, well, I'm not using it,

so I'm just gonna cancel completely.

I'm like, but you are using 10,000,
like, let's go down to 10,000.

You know?

I'm like, what?

Why are we just quitting?

And it happens all the time.

So, yeah, I'm, I'm constantly trying
to like, overcome that and so we

find putting together like the custom
package, Based off of like our product

eyes, like delivery and like pricing
is what works best for most people and

especially as we go up market, as we go
to like bigger companies, we're mainly

focusing on companies that are doing
two, two and a half million plus a year.

It's kind of who we're focusing on.

If you're smaller than that, like
we, we can do great work for you.

We just know that you're probably
gonna churn out in three to

six months when you decide that
content isn't what you want to do.

Which is fine, but it's just also
reality of my business and it costs us

as much to onboard someone that pays
us 500 a month and sticks for four

months as it costs us to, to, you know,
onboard someone that is paying us $5,000

a month and stays for three years.

So it's a matter of focus at this point.

Matt: I'm gonna try to find the best
way to phrase this, but I like what

you said about, you know, people who
are, you have a certain, you know,

million dollar, multimillion dollar
threshold that you look at to say,

this is the right client for me.

When I.

You know, somebody could be doing
a quarter, a million dollars

a year, and they're like, I
need four blog posts a month.

Like, I need that.

Like, why wouldn't you be a
good fit for Editor Ninja?

What, what do you think they're
missing in their business that

makes you want to work with a
multimillion dollar revenue per year?

business.

that, you know, the smaller
companies though, they need content.

They, they're, they're missing something.

What's the something?

John: it's a great, it's a great question.

One I've been thinking about
a lot recently actually.

And the reason is because the
person who's doing quarter million

a year, they two things, one.

They don't yet know what works to grow
their business because if they did, they

would be at two and a half million a year.

So they're trying out a bunch of things.

And also kind of depending on who
the company is, they're compet,

who they're competing against.

Like usually, I mean, especially
like in the WordPress space, let's

just talk about the WordPress space.

They're competing against post status
and WP Beginner and all these sites

that like content is their business.

Four blog articles a month
isn't gonna do anything for you.

You need like.

400 blog articles published and
four articles a month is gonna

take you a hundred months, seven
years, something like that.

Six years, seven years, yeah.

To, to produce all of that, content.

It, it, it's just not
gonna be effective for you.

You know, there, there are other
channels that are gonna be more

effective for you to get you to a
million, 2 million a year than content.

And so what we see is people
will come in and they're like, I

need four blog articles a month.

We'll do it.

And then after a few months they're like,
I'm not seeing an uptick in traffic.

I'm like, yeah, 'cause
you're not doing enough.

You also don't have the budget to do more.

And so they turn and they're
like, oh, we're gonna go try ads.

So I've just seen this time
and time and time again.

And here's the thing, Matt, I do it too.

I do it with my own business.

We're like, you know, five, 600 KA year.

It's like we've gotten like a lot
more Google ads at at one point.

And when we try LinkedIn
ads and we'll try con like.

We're, we're like an A, DHD
squirrel, you know, versus co versus

companies that are at like, I call my
6-year-old that as well by the way.

versus like companies that are at like
two and a half, three, 5 million a year.

Like they know what's worked
to get them to that point and

they have a defined budget.

They're not like, ah,
we're gonna try this thing.

And like, how cheap can
I get blog articles?

They're like, Hey, we've got
a hundred grand a year to

spend on content marketing.

And it's gonna be some combination
of like, content being like shorter

blog articles, top of funnel
stuff, middle of funnel stuff,

downloadables, like, like all of that.

And they, and they usually have
someone and, and really like, it's

that revenue line, but also they
have someone in charge of content.

So it's not a founder that's like doing
12 other jobs, but like they have a

head of content or a content manager or
someone like that, that it is their job

to use content to grow the business.

And so if they have that person,
that person is focused on that thing.

On that thing specifically.

And so they're gonna be much more
reliable, they're gonna have a

better strategy, they're gonna
be much more communicative versus

like, we'll get ghosted by founders
for like two months, right?

We're still producing account.

We're like, Hey, you're still paying us,
but you're also not telling us what to do.

It'd be like having a full-time
developer and then, or or a part-time

developer that you're paying a retainer.

And not giving them any work.

It's the same thing.

So especially like more like
technical founders and that

kind of thing, they, they just,
they don't know how to value it.

They don't know how to like, you
know, give direction and all that.

So once a company gets bigger, they
have someone who actually does.

So that's why we're focusing down on them.

Plus those bigger companies are
willing to sign longer term contracts.

They willing to, you
know, pay more upfront.

they recognize they're gonna have to
give more feedback from the start.

Like they're not trying to like
abdicate it and be like, just

go do my content marketing.

Right?

They're like, you are a piece
of our production puzzle.

Matt: Using myself as another
prime example of, running an

agency, trying to find ways to do
product or productized service.

I think one of the things we fall
into is like as soon as you get to

the bigger, well, not everybody, me
specifically, you could fill in the lines.

as soon as you go into the, into
the bigger clients, there's,

there's more people, there's more
departments, there's more staff.

And oftentimes I found that there are more
requirements, like more demands anyway,

where, you know, you might have a brand,
that you're working with that has like a

whole YouTube side of the marketing team.

Right?

We have a, a team who just does YouTube.

We have a team who just does TikTok and
Instagram reels and, and things like that.

We have, we have writers on, on staff.

That's why we're hiring you for editing.

And what I've found is, you know,
multi-layers of, of management and,

and marketing, they, they eventually
go, well, can we bring on, bring

on Editor Ninja into the room?

I, I wanna make sure that we're
all on the same page and I found

that there's just a higher touch.

Right.

You're, you're charging more
'cause you're probably an agency.

So how do you wrestle with that?

Like, has that happened to you when you
start working with those bigger customers?

I go, you know, we're glad that you do
editing and you do writing, but we, we

need you to be on the all hands meeting
at least once a quarter, whatever.

Ha.

Have you run into that and,
and how do you deal with it?

John: Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, it's interesting.

We've actually never been asked to
like get on a call with our YouTube

person, get on a call with our
LinkedIn person or something like that.

Mainly because the person that has
hired us is, is the strategist.

Like I.

We are just, we are
purely a production shop.

Like we don't do any strategy.

We are not your content marketing
agency that's putting together your

keyword strategy and optimizing
your SEO and all of that.

Like, no, you give us the
requirements and we do it for

you and we send it back to you.

And we do it on time and we do it
well and we charge a fair price.

So yeah, we've actually never
been, never been asked for it.

I think that's kind of what
you have to do as well.

Like if we did say that we did like.

Content strategy or keyword research
and that sort of stuff, I'm sure

we would get these requests for,
you know, for, for the other areas.

But we haven't just because
we, we unabashedly say we are

a production shop, you know?

so, and, and, and this is what
I've seen from like successful.

Productized services like Design
Pickle and Super Side, and you

know, a bunch of those is there
like, or even like, you know, design

Joy like Brett had design Joy.

I don't know Brett personally, but like,
you know, he does, he makes a lot of

money and he's like, I don't do calls.

I don't do like any of this stuff.

You add requests to a Trello
board and I get it done for you.

Right.

It's like just, you have to set
those expectations really tight.

And I'm just, I'm far enough into
my journey of like running agencies

and working at agencies and all of
that, that like, I'm willing to say

like, we do that, we don't do that.

and I heard, so last week I went to, I
bet a lot of the people that are listening

to this, maybe you yourself, have heard
of Alex Homo and, and acquisition.com.

So I went to the, one of their scaling
workshops last week in, in Las Vegas.

It was great.

One thing that Alex says I really like is.

You're always gonna leave money on the
table, and the more your business grows,

the more money you're gonna leave on
the table because the opportunities

are gonna be bigger because you are
interacting with more successful people.

So it comes down to are you focus
is actually the volume and size

of quote unquote opportunities
that you're willing to say no to.

So like someone asked me for a
strategy or they asked me to like

consult with them on SEO 'cause like
that's my background and they're

willing to pay me whatever per month.

Me saying no to them to focus on
Editor Ninja is leave is like that.

That is money that I could have made.

But I am choosing to say no to that
easy short-term money to say yes to,

like the bigger, long-term money.

So you just have to be really, you
have to be really clear about what it

is that you offer and really clear on
what it is that you don't offer and

recognize that people are also gonna ask
you for that thing that you don't offer

and you have to get good at saying no.

And, and it's not like a
like, oh no, I don't do that.

Right?

Like, it's more of a like, you know,
that's not something that we offer.

I have some people that I could
refer you to, and if you want

me to refer them to you, great.

I refer you to them.

Great, I can do that.

But that's not something that we offer.

This is what we offer.

And if that loses you the
deal, it loses you the deal.

And honestly, like if you hear
enough of those, like this

is why I layered on writing.

'cause I had people asking me
like, can you also write for us?

Can you also write for us?

No, we don't do that.

No, we don't do that.

And I lost a few big deals with
like agencies doing six, eight, $10

million a year that they didn't sign
on with us because we didn't write.

And then we had a few others that
signed on with us and churned because

the writers that they had weren't good.

So I'm like, why don't we just bring all
this in-house and offer it as kind of

like a fuller, you know, a fuller suite?

'cause that's what these bigger
like clients seem to want.

and it's worked very well.

We've tripled in the last, like 12
months, so like, it's worked very well.

but it needs to be a very strategic thing.

and so for us it was like
we're writing, we're editing.

We're writing, you know, and then like
we also have our dedicated editor,

like offering to work in their systems.

So we can also like upload it.

And if you give them the, like the Canva
templates and all of that, like they could

create a featured image for you, right?

They could schedule it like, you
know, like we can do these things.

So we're kind of like expanding, but
it's not expanding from like production

to strategy or from production
of content to web development.

It's, we're fulfilling more of the
full, like the full need of content

production, if that makes sense.

Matt: Alright, I wanna pull you into this,
debate that's been going on recently.

Sort of crossed over to more
than a debate, unfortunately,

but, the $5,000 website, this is
something, or a $5,000 client.

This is something that, you know, I
started this podcast like 15 years ago,

is like the $500 website and like, how
do you, you know, make money with that?

But over my time, especially
working at, at Pagely and, and

selling into the enterprise, the
concept of account-based marketing.

I've heard a lot of other agency
owners talk about this as well.

Agencies that do, you know.

Six figure deals at minimum to get into,
you know, web development for, for a big

brand, you know, going downstream and
selling something for like 5,000 bucks,

10,000 bucks just to get in the door.

And then you branch off,
into account based marketing.

Especially if this, you know,
organization has many brands where many

divisions that you could potentially
sell into, kind of feel the same

way with, small businesses too.

Like, I think I.

Small businesses.

It's not that they don't have the
money, it's just that they have to be

a lot more reserved with the, the cash
on hand to invest into like building

a website or hiring a freelancer.

So I'm getting, what I'm getting at
here is like your take on account

based marketing or, or account based
selling, maybe selling at a lower

dollar and then adding on the services
later without saying like nickel and

timing somebody, but like, here's
the offer, here's the entry offer.

It's valuable, we're doing the
work for you, but you know,

eventually you could grow this way.

and it's a lot easier to sell to
the customers you already have,

obviously than acquiring new customers.

So your thoughts, account based
selling and you know, finding

those opportunities that way.

I.

John: No, I'm not fully against it.

I would say that is great
if it is done strategically.

So like us for example, you know,
someone that comes to us like choose

the example, like someone doing a
quarter million a year in revenue.

They're never gonna go.

It's not, they're not Disney, right?

They're never gonna go to, you know, 40
articles a month, 400 articles a month.

It's just not gonna happen.

It's just, it's just not there, right?

And like, I know what my customer
acquisition costs are, so it's literally

gonna take me, you know, nine months
of creating four articles a month

for them, for us to be profitable
on that based off of like my cost

of delivery and my acquisition costs
and time spent and, and ops costs and

like all that, all that stuff, right?

So if they churn before nine
months, I've lost money on that.

So there's not that chance for expansion.

But if it's like, Hey, and, and
we've done this quite a bit and

we're like trying to get a lot better
at it, is like agency comes to us.

They're like, we have these
three clients that we, like, we

don't have coverage for anymore.

Like our account executive left,
or our account manager left, or

editor left, or something like that.

We'll start there, but I also
let them know from the start.

I'm like, Hey, let's start there, but
in 90 days I wanna have a conversation

about getting all of your accounts right.

That is, that is fine.

and if you're a bigger company, I mean,
I know Page Lee Paley sold, right?

Paley got acquired for like
a lot, a lot of dollars.

Right?

I mean, I see Josh driving is
driving his supercar, so like

sold for a lot of dollars.

Awesome.

Like, I mean, phenomenal.

Like I celebrate that.

That's absolutely incredible.

I'm so happy for you guys.

But, You can probably, you
have the funds to do that.

To do that play strategically to lose
money for 90 days, 180 days, even like

a year on an account like that because
you know that it's going to grow and you

have the infrastructure built to do that.

That is great.

Right.

But like to use your example,
if someone box it $5,000 for a

website, don't lower the price.

Thinking that they're gonna
bring you a bunch more work.

If it's like one website
for an s and b, right?

Like the price is the price.

That what I told people was
like, the price is the price.

If you need a, if you need a lower
price, we can talk about that.

But you can't get $5,000
worth of work for 2,500 bucks.

You can get $2,500 worth of
work for 2,500 bucks, right?

Let's trim back the scope.

So, but if you need all of these
things, the price is five grand.

You know, if you pay up front and
can give us six months to do it,

maybe I can lower that to 4,500.

Right?

So you can like make some
concessions like that.

But yeah, at the end of the day,
like this stuff has to be strategic.

So I'm not saying that like we're not
gonna go back down market to, like, I

used to message a lot more and I'll see
if someone comes to us and they're like,

Hey, I need four articles a month for
the next like, you know, six months.

So it's like 24 articles.

I can work it so that it works for me.

So I can recoup a lot of
that cash up front, like.

To, you know, totally fine.

like, I'm not gonna turn them away, but
we've actually just recently started

messaging bigger, you know, bigger
numbers for editing and bigger numbers

for writing and, and all of that.

Because if someone comes to us and
they're like, they're doing 10 million,

an agency's doing $10 million a
year, and we're talking about four

articles, they're like, I need 400.

Can you handle it?

So some of it is just like the messaging
of it that I want bigger companies

to say like, oh, this like Editor
Ninja works with bigger companies.

And then you're still gonna get the
little guys that are like, well, I

only need four or I only need eight.

Okay, let's, let's chat about that.

Right?

you still get, like, when you niche
down, you still get the people that

like want it to be a good fit for them.

And then it's just up to me to be
like, okay, are we a good fit or not?

Do we have that capacity?

'cause if we only have capacity for
like four articles at that point,

and we're trying to like scale
or, or we have someone that like,

you know, could you use more work?

Or we're trying to get them
trained up, or something like that.

Like, I might sign that on once
again strategically because it's,

it's furthering my business, right?

but.

If I'm messaging that we're gonna
turn away our best clients, our

best prospects aren't even gonna
contact us because they're like, oh,

you just worked with little guys.

I'm like, oh, we actually wanna
work with the big guys, so we have

to message the bigger numbers.

Matt: We've been teasing the AI thing
throughout the, throughout the episode.

you sell your agency, you have
the idea for Editor Ninja,

you're about to embark on it.

Chat.

GPT comes out more commercially,
like more, end user ish, and people

are talking about, man, I can
now just make blog posts with ai.

I mean, there were other competitors
out there prior to, to like chat GPT

becoming more like of a household
name, but now specifically people

are signing up and doing this stuff.

What went through your head?

Did you like, have to rush and like,
think about repositioning the, the,

the offering, the, the service?

What went through your head
when, when chat PT came out?

John: Yeah, so.

After I sold Credo in September of
2022, then I basically realized I was

super burned out and like kind of worked
very little for that next quarter.

And then I was going full-time on
Editor Ninja, actually Chris Lima,

who I'm sure you've had on the show.

And I'm sure everyone listening to
this knows Chris was my, was my mar,

was my business coach at the time.

And I was like, Chris is, we
were talking early January.

I'm like, Chris, this thing isn't growing.

And he's like, you know, you
actually need to work on it in

order to make it grow, right?

I'm like, Hmm, fair point.

but before I like started working
on it full time, I went to a.

Ma a small like private
mastermind in Costa Rica with

about 80 other entrepreneurs.

And when I told people what I did or
what Editor Ninja did, they were like.

How does AI affect that?

Like literally every person.

That was the next question.

And at first I'm like, I don't know.

By the end of that week I was like,
okay, here's what's gonna happen.

you know, the next like three
to six months people are

gonna be figuring it out.

Then we're gonna see some
interesting use cases.

and then we're gonna see some companies
launch, like around specifically using ai.

And so I suspect within a couple
of years, most of the content we're

producing, we're producing and
editing is gonna be produced via ai.

I was a hundred percent right Matt.

We went from like 80 per
percent, 80, 90% human written.

and then, you know, the balance
AI created to now that is flipped.

It's like 70, 80% of the
content we edit is generated,

is at least, drafted using ai.

And then probably a human or subject
matter expert has worked with it.

And then it comes to us for editing.

And the editing is like.

Removing, like it's humanization
is what people call it.

It's removing of, you know, the,
the words that AI loves to use.

It's making sure like commas are in the
right place, everything's formatted,

and, you know, paragraphs aren't too
long and all of that sort of thing.

So it's all like formatting, copy,
editing, proofreading, that sort of thing.

We're not seeing that.

We don't see as many typos as we used to
see, or your and your, there, there, like

all that sort of stuff like that, that,
that's not really like needed anymore.

But it's just like, does this
read like a human wrote it?

and so that's a lot of what
we're doing, these days.

And it's, it's fine.

Like the work is, it's just different
work from like a human writing it.

We also see that, people are relying on
editors a lot more to do, like some of

the work that writers were doing that
they didn't really recognize that even

like more junior writers were doing.

In terms of like logic and
organization and that sort of thing.

So the editing is like kind of a hybrid
between like writing and editing, which

is why we charge more for it 'cause it's
more work and it's a different skillset.

but that's, that's
totally, it's totally fine.

Like, I, I think AI is great.

I mean, I use it as a thought partner.

I use it for like, drafting of ideas.

I use it for working through like
logic and that sort of stuff.

But it's like me going and doing the
work, and this is the other thing

that people don't realize about.

Like ai, they're like, oh, I can go and
create like a hundred articles, right?

I'm like, yeah, but
that's still you doing it.

Like it's still gonna
take you a lot of time.

And then once you have
those a hundred articles.

Are you gonna go through
and edit all of 'em?

Like editing is where the magic happens.

that's what Brian Clark from Copy
Blogger told me a few years ago.

He's like, editing is
where the magic happens.

And so if you think that you can just
go, like, create a bunch of, bunch

of blog articles with AI and publish
'em and they're gonna rank, they're

gonna drive results for your business.

You're wrong, basically.

and so what we've found is people be
like, they'll launch like an AI content

creation offering or some of some sort.

We, we had one agency that we
were working with in legal space

that they were signing on agent.

They were signing on lawyer
clients and redoing their website

and creating new service pages
and that sort of thing, right?

Personal injury, attorney, Boston,
Massachusetts, like that sort of thing.

Creating all that text with
ai and now they're like.

We have a quarter million words
a month that need to be reviewed

and humanized and edited.

Right?

And they had no way to scale that up.

So they just plugged us in.

I mean, literally within a
week we are cranking out 20,

25,000 words a day for them.

so that, that's what we see happen with
people and they'll come to us scrambling.

They're like, we have so much
content that we need edited.

I'm like, good thing we are
here and we can do that for you.

Matt: Alright, getting
close to wrapping up here.

It's interesting that you
found like this, this shift.

And it's interesting where like the market
went where they were like, oh, we need a

writer, content writer, let's hire John.

And then suddenly they were
like, well, you know what?

We can make all this content
with, with ai, so let's just

keep the content in house.

And then they realized, oh wait, now
we need somebody to edit the content.

This is like, we should have just kept
John, you know, as the writer to begin

with, but hey, you know, you're, you're
doing well with, with obviously Editor

Ninja and the editing services part of it.

But I'm curious, like how you see this,
affect the market at a ai, how it affects

the market at a greater volume, right?

For either the freelance writers out there
or like insert AI to any task based job.

Like how does the market survive this?

What's, what's your take on how AI
is, is reshaping this workforce, I

guess, for lack of a better phrase?

John: Yeah, it's, it's tough,
honestly, like I've seen a lot of,

you know, freelance content writers
and, and that type that have.

Have gone back in house or they've just
like really struggling to find clients.

Like, it's just, it is just
a, it's a bloodbath out there.

I think there's two things.

One is if you're kind of
a, it's tough for juniors.

I don't know what junior
people should do in this.

in this case, honestly, they
should learn to use AI to do, to

do better work and do it faster.

you know, and just, just realize they're
kind of getting into the volume game.

people that are more senior need
to lean into being more senior.

If they need to specialize, they need
to lean into being more senior that, you

know, AI can't replace a human brain.

Can't really replace a human
strategist and also say that like,

Hey, I'm also using AI to, to make
myself more effective, you know,

to make my work more effective.

But just because my work is more effective
doesn't mean that it's less valuable.

Like to them, so like to the enterprise.

So I, I actually hold more firm on
pricing than a lot of other people do.

And I say like, Hey, like I,
I try to go much more towards

value pricing than like hourly.

Like I, I don't like hourly.

I.

Simply because if you're a more
senior person and you can do work

faster, you're basically being
punished for doing work faster.

You're doing better work and you're
doing it faster than a junior person.

and so you're being punished
for, for being more efficient.

so I very much try to go towards
like value pricing where it's like,

all right, we have this campaign.

And I can do it, or you need this
strategy and I can do it for X dollars.

Right.

and if you're, you know, a more senior
person then, and you can do it in half

the time, then you used to be able to
guess what, you just got a hundred percent

pay raise because you can take on twice
the projects, you know, but also like.

You're not gonna be able to do that with
kind of the bottom of the market and

people that are nickel and dimming you
on like per word, or you know, per hour.

Like that sort of thing.

You gotta go at market.

You gotta target bigger enterprises.

Matt: John Dougherty, editor ninja.com.

Where else can folks go to say thanks?

John: Yeah, editor ninja.com

and then also LinkedIn is where
I hang out primarily these days.

I, I quit Twitter, a while ago.

I actually logged in there yesterday
for the first time just to post one for

the first time in like four months to
post one thing and then log back out.

I'm like, I'm done.

I'm on Blue Sky as well, but
LinkedIn is where I'm primarily

talking about business stuff.

and also Editor Ninja has a YouTube
channel that I'm really, I'm starting

to get like rocking and rolling.

So, I mean, as you can see,
I've got like a good camera.

I've got a good like.

Po, microphone and all of that.

And I actually, did a lot of video editing
when I was in high school and college.

Actually went to college initially to do
that, didn't get into the program, so went

into writing web development, but I love
video, so I'm doing a lot more of that.

And I think there's a, a big space
for people to kind of do, for

someone to do a lot more content
around, like agencies and pricing

and signing clients and all of that.

And that's what I've done for a long
time, especially with my last agency.

So, feel free to find us there.

Just search Editor Ninja on
YouTube and give us a follow.