The WP Minute+

Matt: Hey Brian, welcome
back to the WP Minute.

Glad to be here.

today we are going to unpack the disrupt.

Organize the disrupt.

Disrupt 2024 just happened.

an event I used to always mark
on my calendar, back in my more

youthful entrepreneurship days
in the, in the startup world.

And I would, watch every single session
going, how, how, how can I do this too?

Fast forward to 2024, not so much
anymore until, of course, Matt

Mullenweg appeared in an interview
talking all about WP Engine.

When he announced that he was going
to be speaking at Disrupt, Half of

me was like, Oh, I wonder if he's
just totally going to ignore the WP

engine stuff and just like talk about
cool stuff happening with WordPress.

Kind of like we all knew it was
happening in the background.

But this interview, with
Connie Loizos was number one.

It was fantastic.

number two, it was actually a
surprise that it was just purely

about this, This current current
affairs that we're in, with the

lawsuit, with WP Engine and Automatic.

and I really appreciated,
the 30 ish minutes.

I thought it was all really
well used and well thought out.

And in today's episode, we're going
to pull out some of those parts.

definitely link to it in the show notes.

Go watch the full thing.

We're not going to play all of it,
but there are some key points that I

think, That I've highlighted that I
think are, are, would have been nice to

know years ago and also, some clarity
around, like, what's happening now.

that's what we're gonna do today.

should be fun.

Brian: Yeah, sounds good.

you, you always like get concerned when
a journalist interviews in your specific

area that they're not going to have maybe
the best questions or something like that.

But this, that was not the case at that.

Great questions.

great narrative of the interview.

so I think, yeah, I think
it was, it was worthwhile.

for anybody to watch.

Matt: Yeah.

This one, we always, you know,
we collectively in the community

always sort of like point fingers
and at TechCrunch at, at times we're

like, Oh, you're not, you're not
understanding how this whole thing works.

but this one, was great.

And we're going to just talk about
some of the things that I've, I found

was interesting and particularly,
which I've never heard before is

Matt's approach to all things product.

So let me just go ahead and play
this little clip right here.

Mullenweg: And, so nowadays we have
Tumblr, you know, WooCommerce, which

is kind of open source Shopify, only,
Platform growing as fast as Shopify.

Oh, podcasting apps like Pocket
Cast, day one journaling.

So we have a whole portfolio of,
of everything basically, but our,

the common thread between it all
is we try to be privacy centric,

user centric and open source.

Connie: That's Parsley.

We love Parsley as well.

Matt: I totally forgot
about Parsley, by the way.

I remember that from, you know, years ago.

But, privacy centric, user
centric, and open source.

The first time that I've actually heard
it framed that way, which was interesting.

Like, the open source part, yes,
I know that, and I think everyone

listening to this knows that.

But the interesting part of just that
little sort of throwaway statement

is privacy centric, user centric.

Those are the two that I've
not Specifically privacy.

Like I know like the purchasing of
text messaging apps and stuff like that

were were thing where he was talking
about like privacy and, data security.

And I know day one is, said to be,
you know, private and certainly

user centric, but that was just an
interesting point that I thought,

I've never really, really heard him
lead with, with all things automatic,

Brian: Yeah.

If you've, if you've ever had
customers on WordPress VIP, you

would not have forgotten Parsley
because they are very aggressive

on, selling it in the VIP world.

but yeah, that is going to, I guess I
would have never thought user centric.

that was the one that stuck out to me,
but then actually you do think about it,

like they don't own, they really don't
own things like that are B2B company.

You know what I mean?

Like they're, he really does
own a lot of user products,

user software, and not like.

You know, I don't know, he's not
out there, selling Salesforce

or something like that, I guess.

So yeah, I guess in the sense that, and
it's like, I feel like I use, I think I

use everything he just listed right there.

So,

Matt: yeah.

we'll start to dive.

It goes right into, you know, this,
this whole, WP engine versus automatic

stuff or automatic versus WP engine.

and again, this is all her questions.

this was the questions that Connie
came with and the framing of it

and did a really great job, with
asking Matt, some of the stuff.

I'll say like, if you're interior to
the community, like if you're someone,

you know, putting out the questions,
I feel like everyone's sort of walking

the plank these days, for lack of a
better phrase, we all are concerned

with even questioning this stuff.

So it It's great to see this, a third
party who's independent from WordPress,

that was, you know, very well read into,
the community and what's happening,

but also can sort of stand on their own
two, two feet without concern of getting

kicked out of, Slack or wordpress.

org.

and, and that's the unfortunate thing that
I think we're, We're all faced with when

we're commenting on this stuff, right?

it's, it's just the unfortunate state
of affairs that we're in these days, but

we're just reacting to the questions.

In this conversation, I'm priming it.

I'm trying to prime as much
as I possibly can here, Brian.

Brian: I, you know, there's a lot of
people who, I see that they get blocked

and I, I, I kind of can't really
comment, it's like, well, I don't know.

You were a little personal.

You were a little mean, I don't really
think you should be surprised, but

yes, there's definitely a general sense
that even for people who just want

to be supportive and you feel like, I
don't, I just want to phrase this in a

right way so that if any context gets
stripped out, it doesn't appear like I'm.

worthy of, of being
punished in the community.

Matt: So this is one of these
segments, where it would be like a

nice to know many years ago, Connie
tees it up with, asking Matt about

what's happening with WP Engine.

She starts it, kicks it off with
you declared war using your own

words on them and skipping into
his, response a little bit here.

I'm going to play this clip, where
they have a little back and forth.

Mullenweg: And actually, you
know, we worked pretty closely

with them since they're starting.

We're actually a seed investor, but
in 2018 they were, we were kicked

out and they were bought by this
private equity firm, silver Lake.

And since then, can

Connie: I back up there for a second?

You were, you were kicked out.

So they bought your shares,
but you sold them unwillingly.

Mullenweg: Yeah, we would have loved to
have remained involved, but Silverlake

kind of took it over and, like they've
done with many open source and open

companies, they've, they've really taken
it in a quite, profit maximizing place.

So

Matt: I've never heard of that
before, like somebody just,

you know, just gets kicked out.

obviously I don't know like what
happened behind the scenes and it even

seemed like Connie wasn't really sure.

Let me just play that part one more time.

Mullenweg: That is private
equity firm Silver Lake.

And since then, can

Connie: I back up there for a second?

You were, you were kicked out,
so they bought your shares,

but you sold them unwillingly.

Mullenweg: Yeah, we would have
loved to have remained involved.

Matt: So they bought your shares.

But you sold them unwillingly.

I, you know, again, I don't
know how that happens.

I don't know if maybe at the time
they were just like, Oh, this whole,

the Silver Lake company is coming in.

I don't want to be a part of this.

And then they sold or they
sold and got their return.

I, who knows.

but I found that like a really
interesting part for, for Matt to say,

well, back in 2018, we were kicked out.

I, I'd never heard about that before
that, and I hadn't really heard him say

that up until this interview, in fact,

Brian: Yeah.

That, that phrasing was new.

I've heard, I did see some people online
saying there are ways where, depending

on the types of shares you have, there
are situations where it's not like.

unrealistic that this, you
could be kind of forced into a

sellout or something like that.

So that it's, cause like at first I
thought, well, that just doesn't make

sense, but I don't know enough about it.

And there were some people saying
that is something that is definitely

possible and something they
could have gotten wrapped up in.

I do think though, like his
phrasing of saying that.

WP Engine is an open source company
is a little bit different because I

think the other times Silver Lake buys
these companies, they actually get

access to the open source projects.

So they buy the company that runs
the project or owns the project.

Whereas in this case, WP Engine
is not some open source company

that owns an open source project.

You know what I mean?

So it's not like Silver Lake
came in and bought WordPress.

They bought one person in WordPress.

Matt: so obviously the.

Conversation continues on.

I'm going to play this clip
where, Connie tees up trying to

get to the root of, of the issue.

Connie: So again, just trying to
get to the root of, I guess, what's

happening and, and how it gets resolved.

So, you're frustrated by some
of the things that they did,

including making the revisionist,
revision history harder to manage.

I guess the question is, was that
any of your business to start with?

Mullenweg: What was any of my business?

What do you mean?

Connie: What WP engine
does, how it conducts its.

Mullenweg: Oh, absolutely.

Cause they were abusing the trademark and
creating a lot of confusion in the market.

Matt: And that's the
crux of all this, right?

That's what a lot of us have been
saying and is a root for not only

this issue, but like the root of a
lot of concern for, for any of us.

and they, and they, she does press them
more about like, what happens if somebody

else's, if As successful, if or more
than WP Engine and this is the like the,

the, the weight that I think a lot of us
feel right now is like we're all looking

at WP Engine going, what's going to
happen legally and we don't know for many

years, which we'll find out later in this
conversation, potentially, and, that's the

big thing, like the word, the phrase WP
Minute, am I, in the line of sight, right.

And all of this WP beginner, like
any, so many of us who have started WP

something or something WP, you know,
for 20 years, a lot of us are thinking,

could, can any of us, go through this?

And we just saw this too, unfortunately
with Jason Coleman and paid memberships

pro where he decided to pull.

paid memberships pro out of the WordPress
repo and the repository reported on

this that they saw direct messages from
Matt to Jason saying like, Hey, look, we

might take over your slug, the premise
login WordPress dot org, take over

the plugin, in fact, and that stuff is
You know, alarming, to say the least.

And, I get it about the trademark abuse.

Totally get it, legally and on paper.

but there's just a lot of confusion in
the air about what is confusing, what is

infringing, and, and, and maybe at the
end of the day when this dust settles,

there'll, there'll be more clarity,
but I think everyone's kind of, sort

of, sitting on their hands right now.

Brian: I mean, I kind of get what
he's saying about WP Engine's use

of the word WordPress more than WP,
like the actual WordPress trademark.

And I, I do, I mean, they did clean
up their site since this has happened.

They've been a lot more clear about it.

They've changed the names
of a lot of their products.

I think it's, it's not even
really the worst argument.

I think.

The part about the revisions though, is
this kind of weird tangent where his,

I think part of his claim is that you
can't take, you can't take something

that's GPL like WordPress, change the
core software and then give it the

same name and still call it WordPress.

You buy GPL, you have to rename
it, give it a different name and

make sure that that's open source.

But if you go to WPN right now, you,
they're not giving you a different

version of a WordPress core software.

They didn't change
WordPress core in any way.

It's still the same exact WordPress core.

They turn off revisions, but that's
a filter that anybody can do.

It's not changing courts.

It's actually a core feature
to be able to do that.

And so I think for a lot of
people, it's like, well, part of it

hinges on this idea that they're.

Tweaking WordPress or
bastardizing it as he says.

But I think that's one where it's
just, I think you could just kind

of just flat out say that that's
not really what's happening.

whereas are they using the word
WordPress a little more than

maybe they should be out to?

I think he's on like
firmer ground on that one.

Matt: I'll let, I'll, I'll
let the, that part of the clip

continue to play out, to be fair.

So he can state sort of like his,
his side of it on the confusion.

And that's gonna go into
another interesting point

that I highlighted about 8%.

but let's continue where Matt left off.

Mullenweg: So if you look, actually,
since this started, they've had, we

used to make tens of thousands of
customers leave and including, like,

I had a friend of mine, Bob Perkowitz,
who was in the, the CNBC article.

He's a close personal friend.

I've known him for 15 years.

He had eight sites on WP Engine.

He thought it was me.

So it wasn't until this story came
out that he was like, oh, and so

that was, you know, he was one
of the customers that has left.

So, You know, I think over the next few
weeks, they're actually going to lose far

more than 8 percent of their business.

And so that's part of what they've,
they've said actually in their filings.

I think they had cancellations
of 29%, everything.

So I think that shows that as
their customers are learning that

they're actually not officially
associated with WordPress.

In fact, are attacking WordPress.

They're moving off.

Connie: Okay,

Matt: so this is the interesting
part that I had to highlight.

It's a longer segment.

Connie: So, you wanted, so I don't
think we established that you had asked

them for basically 8 percent of their,
either their revenue or 8 percent

of the equivalent of revenue in like
engineering hours working on the core.

One of your biggest beefs with them,
in addition to saying now that they

were abusing your trademark, was
that they weren't contributing enough

to the WordPress sort of community.

Mullenweg: Well, that's
the way to put it, yeah.

I wanted to give them the option
because I knew they were going to.

Weaponize this and publish it.

So I wanted to say, it's
not just about the money.

It's really about, like, you know, if
you're going to profit off the WordPress

trademark, you know, you need to be part
of, you know, the WordPress ecosystem.

But also, it was the
WooCommerce trademark as well.

So there's that whole other
thing that they were abusing.

Connie: Just wondering
how you settled on 8%.

Mullenweg: based on business analysis.

So, you know, if you estimate that would
be about 32 million, they still would

have been a free cashflow positive.

Matt: So this is another part
where it's still not clear for me.

I don't know about you, but it.

Like this chicken or
the egg kind of thing.

Is it, is it the 8 percent that
you want or like the trademark

agreement that you want?

Is it the, you know, contributions
back, to, open source WordPress

and, and the community.

that's the part that wasn't clear.

It sounds like they were
trying to do a deal.

For however long it's been 18 months or
something like we'll get to that part.

it sounds like they were trying to do
like the trademark deal for a while,

but what's not clear for me was like,
have, have you been, an advocate

for them to, to take part in this?

Like when you pulled out in 2018.

when Matt pulled out and Automatic pulled
out in 2018, did you start advocating

then to do more stuff, you know, to
contribute more hours towards, Core,

Five for the Future, more community
stuff, like, when did that start versus

when the, okay, I'm sick and tired of
seeing you grow and not do anything and

now I'm just going to hit you with it?

Like this trademark and
licensing deal thing.

you know, and I think again, that's
just another area of uncertainty,

at least for me to understand that
timeline and why, you know, so many

of us are scratching our heads.

Brian: Yeah.

In other interviews, he said that
the, he went after the trademark

as a way to apply pressure because
they weren't contributing enough.

In here, it sounds like he's saying I
added the contributing part later because

I knew it would be public and it would
look better is what it sounds like.

Right.

It almost sounds like reverse.

Yeah.

And I know he said that the 8 percent is.

Five for the future 5%, but because that's
normally staff hours and because they

didn't want to put staff towards it, he
would have to hire staff and manage them.

And that's an additional 3 percent
overhead of all the HR and everything

that it requires to manage staff.

So it's really 8 percent
because that would be.

3 percent for him to manage them
and 5 percent for the actual

staff working on core is, I
guess where the number came from.

Obviously the 5 percent is arbitrary
too, but, yeah, I agree with you.

It's, it's very, it's,
it's kind of unclear.

I think everyone just wants to know,
like, what is the ideal outcome here?

Like if you could have everything you
wanted from WP engine and you could win

the entire situation, would it just be
8 percent of their revenue as a tax?

Would it actually just
be them contributing?

Would it then be changing
their name and just not.

Being called WPN, like what is the, it's
very unclear what he actually wants here.

I think he knows, but
I don't think we know.

Matt: Yeah.

And again, I'm trying not to play
this whole interview, but I'll let

this play out just in fairness.

Mullenweg: And, based on our estimates
and, you know, the negotiations that

we've had over the past 18 months,
we felt like that was a fair amount

na: because by the

Mullenweg: way, they, if you look
at the art, part of the reason

it's so profitable is they don't.

Do they don't have any IP, they don't
create WordPress, they don't spend

any money on the primary thing that
they're selling to their customers.

So if you look at any other tech company,
they're spending way more on R and D.

So this is basically kind of like
their outsourced R and D cost.

Matt: Yeah, that's a tough one, right?

I mean, they're spending on
infrastructure, they're spending on,

you know, humans, they're spending on
the, the interface of, like, if you're

just looking at hosting alone, not even
talking about, you know, ACF and, and

local and all like all this other stuff,
but if you're just like hosting, like

they are, Spending there so they it's
not like he's just trying to paint this

picture like oh They're getting all
this for free in there and it's like

absorbing all this, you know this profit
I get what he's saying, but it's also

like that's an extreme in my opinion

Brian: They they're I don't think
people go like I get his argument that

people go there People don't go to
WP Engine and then they learn about

WordPress and join the ecosystem.

People who are already invested
heavily in WordPress go to WP

Engine and use them as a host.

And so in that sense, they do get to
like benefit off the WordPress name.

The second thing though is
like, it's not just hosting.

It's, it's their hosting,
like, experience.

Like, they nailed developer
experience a few years ago.

To a level that none of the other
hosted, which is why they got so popular.

And that's not, has nothing
to do with WordPress.

That's everything to do with what it feels
like to log into WP engine, to launch a

site, to spin up staging sites, to do all
the fancy integrations that developers

like they solve that so much further.

people aren't there because they're
there for some WordPress software

that they could get anywhere.

They're there for the hosting experience.

And like, that's so it's a, yeah, I kind
of, I don't quite agree with this idea

that they don't have to spend any money on
that thing that they're selling, which is.

The experience of using their platform.

Connie: Well, they say that they say
otherwise, they say they've spent millions

of hundreds of millions of dollars,
you know, developing their business.

And they also say that they've
contributed a lot to the WordPress

community, plugins, other, you
know, sponsorship to a WordCamp.

Matt: And this, this part is, is very
interesting to me to, to, to hear him

say this, but it's specifically this.

I mean, sponsorships to work
camps are for advertising.

Yeah.

That was a first, right?

I've always looked at it like if
you're sponsoring, especially at the

prices these days, you are doing that.

It's not, in my book, it's not an
advertising play because I think

advertising dollars could go a lot farther
with a lot more impact than a WordCamp.

in my opinion, was if you're going to
sponsor a WordCamp, you're doing it for,

to support the idea of getting in person
events, low ticket prices, you know, two,

three day events, to support WordPress and
not, you know, As an advertising scheme.

Let me just let this clip play out.

Mullenweg: You know, so they've,
I think that in total that they've

ever sponsored since they started,
I think it's around 400, 000.

and you know, there's other sponsors
that would have happily had their space.

So they're, they're no longer
allowed to sponsor and already other

companies have taken their spots.

So it's, it's really advertised.

It's like if you had sponsors
here, they're doing it,

not just out of altruism.

They're doing it to get customers.

Okay.

Connie: I, how dare you say
that about our advertisers?

Matt: so yeah, I just don't buy
it as, as a pure advertising play.

I, I've always seen sponsoring
WordCamps for the price point and

for what you get in return as a way
to support the community at large.

That's my opinion.

Brian: Yeah, I kind of go back and forth
on that one because, It is out, it is

advertising, but one is 400, 000 of
the sponsorship to the event, but that

doesn't count all the staff you have to
bring, the swag, all this stuff like that.

And you know, the cheap ticket prices,
the swag, the booths, all that stuff

add up to the experience, the people,
the WP Engine employees have been

speakers that get paid to go there.

So there's.

Way more to it than like, we get to see
their logo when we go to this conference,

you know, just the ticket price alone.

That to me is a sponsorship or
a contribution because they're

subsidizing all of us to get to
go to WordCamp by sponsoring and

keeping the ticket prices low.

So I think, yeah, it's, it's a little
bit more than they just get to free

advertise to a industry that's already
so insular that we all know who WP

engine is to begin with, you know, this
isn't tech crunch with 10, 000 people.

this is a.

a small insular group.

So

Matt: yeah.

So, they start to, you know, talk
about, another area that was, was really

under the radar for me, like trying to
understand the foundation, wordpress.

org automatic you and I famously did
about an hour and a half, on, unpacking

a lot of this stuff in, in rapid fire.

so a lot of the stuff we're learning
about, you know, Matt owning wordpress.

org and running it.

directly, and the, how
the foundation works.

And this is where Connie starts
to get into that with him.

Connie: You wrote at the time that
automatic had transferred the WordPress

trademark to the WordPress foundation,
to ensure access to WordPress and related

open source projects in perpetuity.

You added automatic might not
always be under my influence.

So from the beginning, I envisioned a
structure where for profit, nonprofit,

and not just for profit could
coexist and balance each other out.

It's important to me to know that.

WordPress will be protected and the
brand will continue to be a beacon

of open source freedom, regardless of
whether any company is as benevolent

as Automatic has been thus far.

It sounds to me like you
were saying, take it, go.

And now it sounds very much
like the extreme opposite.

Mullenweg: It's important
to remember the context.

So Automatic's been around for a while.

I just celebrated actually 19 years there.

So, in 2005, when we started, I was 21.

Our first round was 3.

3.

That was our series a, by the way.

And so, and as a kid, you know, I, I
didn't have control over the company

at the time I, you know, the investors,
controlled it and we actually brought

in a CEO, Tony Schneider, who actually
won a crunchy for CEO of the year

back in the day, I think 2008 or 2009.

And, So, I mean, fast forward to today,
I now vote 84 percent of the shares, you

know, so I have founder control again.

Matt: So the foundation and,
and the licensing, they go

on to talk more about it.

once again, definitely
listen to the whole episode.

I totally understand about the early days
of automatic and So I'm trying to straddle

both sides of the line on this one,
where I can understand in the early days.

It's easy to get, the rug pulled
out from under you, especially from

investors, you know, especially from
people who are just looking at you

going, Hey, you got this big thing.

You don't even realize it.

You're building this thing.

They realize it and they,
you know, take control.

I totally get it.

So on one hand, I'm like, it was
smart of him to, protect himself and

WordPress like that in the early days.

A part of me wants to believe like
none of it was done with the intent of

how it's rolling out today, but it's
certainly at an advantage today for sure.

so I, I really wrestle with, with
like the formation of, you know,

the foundation and I think I have.

Yeah, let me continue this clip
because this kind of wraps it up.

Mullenweg: So WordPress.

org, again, just started with me
registering the site on GoDaddy in 2003.

It didn't officially have
a trademark or anything.

The trademark came a few years later.

So I've always just run it personally.

And, so I have a license
to run it for WordPress.

org.

Automatic has a license.

if the foundation has a three
person board, I'm one of the three.

So it's truly an independent board.

And then, yeah, for example, if I were
not a good steward of the wordpress.

org, you know, website and trademark,
the foundation could actually take it

back from me and give it to someone else.

Matt: That was new to me.

Like that, that, that last line right
there, that the foundation could

take that license that he wordpress.

org and give it to somebody else.

The issue is, yes, technically on
paper it's an independent board,

Because there's two other people,
but he's also probably really

friendly with those two other people.

so yeah, on paper, everything
sounds like technically correct.

And you would think that if he
was acting in bad faith, that.

That foundation could take that
license away from him on, on wordpress.

org.

but just a, a very convoluted web.

I don't know how many
metaphors I can throw at this.

Convoluted web, slippery slope,
like there's just a lot here.

and I think that it wasn't intentional
20 years ago for him to form it this way,

but it has certainly played out in his,
in a surprising advantage these days.

Brian: I don't think
it was set up for Matt.

I don't think he set it up
to give away any control.

I think he's very known as a founder mode
type of guy who wants complete control.

And I don't really think
that's even a problem.

It's a, it's definitely more of a,
like in case of emergency break glass

situation that it can be taken away
from him, but it's not a, I have

to make every decision, go through
some sort of board of people things.

So I think it doesn't really
change my perspective of.

Matt runs WordPress the way
he wants to run WordPress.

He always has, probably always will.

I think that's still
the same thing it was.

I think, you know, the, the board makeup
obviously is really interesting because

I don't think anyone ever thought
about it before, mainly because no one

ever really thought that anyone other
than Matt could be in charge before.

And I, there's a part of me that thinks,
man, it would be great to have a real

board of people who are actually invested
in the WordPress ecosystem and familiar

with it, there are two people who it
seems like are not engaged with WordPress

in any meaningful way, their livelihoods
don't depend on it or anything like that.

so part of me thinks, man, it'd be great
to have like, you know, Yoast and Syed

and Miriam Schwab and all these smart
people make a real board of WordPress.

But on the other hand, the other
part of me says, well, those

people all stand to make a lot of
money based on these decisions.

And maybe we don't want a group
of people like that running

WordPress either, you know, so.

You know, I think it's Matt, it's
Matt, Matt Turtles all the way down.

And I think that's the way it is.

And I've yet to see anybody come
step forward with a truly, you know,

meaningful alternative to that.

Matt: And I'm just going to play
this for the listener so they can

hear the other two board members.

Connie: Who are the
other two board members?

Mullenweg: Shell Farley and Mark Grosh.

Connie: And what do they
think of all of this?

Mullenweg: well, we just had a board
meeting actually a week or two ago.

We published the minutes on
the WordPress foundation sites.

there's incredibly supportive.

Matt: I want to move into, you know,
later we're about halfway through

the actual interview and, and what
I find, find interesting is, I don't

know how well Connie knows him and,
and like personally and, and how long

they, they stayed in communication,
but, she generally seems concerned.

As anyone, would like, if with any kind
of like details into the situation, I

mean, I'm concerned, for his, his state
of being able to manage all this stuff.

I've always been critical
of him, managing too much.

I, again, I've said this to him in one
of the interviews I had with him, like

directly said, I think you do too much.

I think, how can you wear all these hats?

How can you cover all of these products
and these brands and this initiative?

And you can start to see that come
through in the conversation, in this clip.

Connie: I did see that you tweeted
that you, you were just celebrating

your 19th year at WordPress.

And there was some support, but much,
much of it was, you know, hugely negative.

Like, we hope it's your last
year, and we all hate you, dog.

sort of typical, ex fair.

But, how are you absorbing all of that?

Mullenweg: Well, WP Engine's been
very successful in their PR campaign.

And they've, you know, drummed up a
lot of the, the folks who are, sort of

making, they're trying to make this like,
WordPress is in trouble or something.

Now I

Matt: haven't seen a PR
campaign from WP Engine.

Mullenweg: It's been challenging,
to be honest, and, you know,

Matt: I wear

Mullenweg: a whoop.

My, my recovery and sleep has been
kind of weak the past few weeks.

but it's also been, it's been an
incredible showing of support.

So lots of other executives.

I was just with Mark Benioff
in Hawaii a few days ago.

So the folks who, like, really
understand business and other things

have been very, very supportive.

Matt: So yeah, I mean, I'm just generally
concerned about like, him managing all

of this stuff, all under pressure, and
again, it seems like, to his credit,

which he brings up in the conversation,
is like, hey, I'm out here doing press,

I'm out here doing podcasts, you know,
blogging about it, and, tweeting about

it, but there's also a lot of like,
Crazy things that I see happening to

with people getting blocked, get kicked
out, banned, taking over plugins.

It's just like Half of me is like I
can totally understand the pressure

that you're under how can we help you?

But at the same time like the we is
also getting attacked in all this.

To a certain degree I really struggle
with it, but it is interesting to

hear You know how she's also like
looking at him going you get a lot

here Buddy, like, can you handle it?

Brian: I'm, I felt that she was
very concerned and not super

excited with all the answers.

Then again, I was on YouTube and there
were people who were like, wow, she's

a chill for WordPress and Reddit the
exact opposite as what I thought.

I thought she seemed pretty critical, but
about his point there about WP engine.

And their negative PR campaign,
which I don't think anyone sees that.

I don't know that he sees it, or if he's
just saying it as part of like building

his legal case, or if he truly thinks
there's some sort of thing happening from

WP Engine that I don't think anyone sees.

I think it's just community hostility.

That's kind of always there under the
surface, but the idea that he goes on

stage and he talks about all of these
things, I think is good, on the other I

don't know if you have this clip where
she talks about the thing where he's

supposedly hiring Heather Bruner and
she's, you know, the CEO of WP Engine,

and she says that it's not true at all,
and they've only published one side

of the text messages, and he says that
there's another side of the text messages,

but he's not going to show it until it
gets forced out in legal discovery, and

that's a situation where it's such a
clear black and white, where one side

is telling the truth and the other side
is not, and they've And he's right that

they've only published some clips and
not his clips, but he could, and he just

hasn't published the other side of it.

And so that's a situation where
you go, well, I don't know.

Is it, is it, are you being as transparent
because you're doing all these interviews?

Because.

You're giving the same answers and
here's a situation that is very clear.

Show us the other side of the texts that
they're not showing us and prove that

you're right and it's not happening.

So I don't know.

Matt: they're about to get
into that conversation.

this is another important point
where she asked for clarity,

Connie: but I guess, I mean, in aggregate,
is it, is it worth it to even take

that risk over this battle with them?

And also Matt relatedly,

Mullenweg: I obviously
think it's worth it now.

And again, if this were
happening every year.

there'd be something wrong with us.

It's kind of like the old saying, like
if you wake up every day, and every day,

you meet a jerk, maybe you're the jerk.

He he he.

But, if you know, every five
or ten years, you know, we have

something like this happen, I
think that's probably about normal.

Connie: I, I guess for the developers
out there who want crystal clear

clarity, and I, and I ask, been asked
this before, and I haven't heard, a,

a, a, really crystal clear answer.

What is the threshold?

So, What did they, at what
point did they overstep?

I mean, what kind of guarantee can
you offer to other people that this

won't happen if they also become highly
successful as WP Engine has become?

Mullenweg: Well, like I
said, there's plenty of other

businesses, which are just.

Matt: So that kind of, that touches upon
like what we were talking about before,

like what point do people, realize
that they might be in the cross hairs?

He doesn't really give
a great answer here.

He doesn't really, like, highlight,
like, how other people can, you

know, do this, properly, or whatever.

Brian: Yeah, I mean, I think she
just summarizes it right there.

You know, yeah, this is the
question Everybody wants to know

and yeah, why why why isn't it
answered and he doesn't answer it?

Mullenweg: No You It's all going
through their lawyers, Quinn Emanuel.

So, when you have nothing to hide, when
you, you know, on the right side, I'm

doing press, I'm doing podcasts, I'm here.

cetera.

when you have something
to hide, he said the same

Matt: thing to

Mullenweg: us, by the way,
you have it all go through a

spokesperson and your lawyers.

So,

Connie: well, people choose
different strategies.

I'm thankful you're here to also say

Mullenweg: from the legal point
of view, you know, we had a

neocatal sign up to lead this case.

He's one of the top
lawyers in the country.

Supreme Court board was, Obama,
and he's actually faced off with

Quinn Emanuel a number of times
as in one every single case.

So I think from a legal point of view,
we feel very, very strong as well.

Matt: again, like he still
feels really positive.

I know his post that he put out, I can't
remember, a couple weeks ago at this

point, where he said he's going to be
a little bit more quiet, which I also

find a little bit ironic, like he's
going to be a little bit more quiet

on the topic, but then showed up at
TechCrunch Disrupt to talk about it.

whatever, I get it.

It's a strategy.

I get it.

But, you know, I just,
I thought it was funny.

I'd imagine if his legal team was
like, yeah, we're in the wrong here

for the love of God, please stop
talking publicly about this stuff.

They would be saying that to him
and he would be taking that advice.

you know, it's hard, it's hard
for me to compartmentalize the,

or just to have the two lanes.

That's, that's where I think we
all struggle with me personally,

the lane of automatic versus WP
engine and Matt in the community.

And those two things, you know,
parallel to each other as this all

unfolds, like there's, I can totally
understand the legal agreement, or the

legal argument and do all that stuff,
I can't wrap my head around why we're

beating up the community so much.

Brian: Yeah, because I, it is
important that he didn't sue WP

Engine or file a lawsuit, they
filed the lawsuit against him.

So all he did was go on stage,
say some things that may or

may not be like libelous, may
or may not have extorted them.

For revenue.

I, you know, I don't, I'm just saying
these are the charges and then he cut

off their access to a personal website
that he owns that I think he honestly,

I don't think there's any reason he
couldn't have done that personally.

So, and then they sued him for this stuff.

And so I think in his mind,
he, and I think it really is a

coin flip for a lot of people.

Like he's, they, they're kind
of have this burden of proof to.

To show that everything that he did was
malicious and for some ulterior purposes,

because they're the ones filing the
lawsuit and he's, all he's doing is just

not inviting them to his party anymore
and, and, and gossiping about them.

Matt: Yeah.

Brian: And so, I mean, I, I kind of
get why he seems a little confident.

Matt: I pulled this next clip, just
as like an, another interesting

point, stuff that, I hadn't heard
of up until this conversation.

This is about, the, Alignment offers
or realignment offers, I forget what,

what do you, what do you call the
alignment offer, inside automatic.

Connie: I was going to ask you, so,
and then, so subsequently, just to let

everybody know, so there was a point
where you offered people a six month

salary and then you said, you know what,
if you miss the window, I'm going to

give you one more chance and I'm going
to let you take nine months of pay.

So that

Mullenweg: was kind of funny.

So even after this six month buyout,
we had a leaker of the company.

So someone who was taking
screenshots of like internal

private stuff and leaking it.

So, I know you love leakers, but
it's kind of breaks the trust.

We have a very high transparency
environment at, at automatic where

Basically everything, everyone can
say everything, all the revenue

numbers, every, pretty much everything.

So, you know, someone breaking
their confidentiality agreement

is really, really tough.

So I created this second buyout,
basically just for the leaker.

I said, all right, you know,
it was a much shorter window.

It was like a four or five hour window
and it was nine months of payouts.

And it was kind of funny.

The leaker actually got in touch in the
first hour and they confessed actually.

And I said, you know what?

Great.

I actually have incredible
respect for this person.

Here's the nine months
and, Yeah, here you go.

Connie: So all together I saw a report
that the six month buyout, around 8.

3 percent of people.

Mullenweg: people.

Yeah.

Connie: And, and how many more?

Was it just the leaker who took the
nine month deal or I'm assuming more?

So

Mullenweg: the second deal, so the first
deal, we cut off your access the same day.

The second deal we said, Hey, 159 left.

We're actually, we've actually
seen a huge boost in business, so

we're hiring as fast as we can.

So for the second deal, you
know, if you're the leaker.

We'll cut off access immediately,
but for others, we might ask them

to stay on, you know, possibly
until next year, just because

we're very short staffed right now.

So we kind of need to hire.

So, there were some other
people that have taken it.

Our, our employee count is
actually totally public.

So

Matt: just a lot, like
a lot of things there.

Like the nine month deal was really
to unearth the leaker, which I don't.

I don't see how that worked.

Like that was the cheese.

The mouse went after like the, there was a

Brian: stick, it was a carrot and
a stick because the, in his post

he says, and if you don't quit,
here's what's going to happen.

So,

Matt: Oh, right, right.

In the post that he, that,
that he put out about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

yes, that's right.

So there was that, coming up with that
plan to, to get the, get to get the

leaker and then others who opted into it.

It wasn't going to be so immediate,
which kind of feels weird to you're

going to get your nine months, but you
got to hang out until potentially next

year, slightly Awkward, you know, I
think to set that tone, to be in the

person in the, in the meeting, knowing
you're going to take your nine months,

but you had to wait, wait around.

business is a booming apparently, and,
you got to hire as fast as possible.

so just a lot.

Yeah, which a lot happening

Brian: because then later, I think
it's later, he says that, they

were a little overstaffed, right?

And that part of it was that he wanted
to trim down on the staff and also, which

I thought was a very interesting thing.

Where he says that he would actually
thinks that they could do more revenue

and maybe even cut the staff down further.

Yep.

Thanks to things like AI and stuff,
which obviously I would never want to

hear my boss saying, Hey, I actually
think that I'm going to need a lot

less of you in the next few years.

So, stick around until I can replace you.

Matt: here's one of the, the chaos
theories of, what happened early on,

that potentially all of this was to
drive down valuation of WP Engine

so Automattic could acquire it.

let's go with some, great
questions from Connie.

Connie: I did see that BlackRock
had marked down a value of its

holdings to half of that amount
essentially back in March.

So there have been theories that
this whole fight with WordPress was

sort of driven by automatic being
in some sort of state of duress,

wanting to drive down the value of,
of WP Engine so you could acquire it.

So do you want to sort of, can you
tell me about your company's financial

health and also if there is any.

Truth to your potentially
wanting to acquire this company.

Mullenweg: Yeah.

What can I say about that?

That we've said publicly,
half a billion in revenue.

we haven't raised any primary capital
and have no plans to, so, you know,

running a break even or better and,
hiring aggressively and growing.

Very fast.

So,

Connie: and what about WP Engine?

I mean, that was a great non answer here
today and in text and tweets about how

people are leaving WP Engine and it's
probably not worth what it was worth

when Silver Lake, invested and, you know,

Mullenweg: it's, it's been mildly rumored
that they were shopping around and trying

to sell WP Engine earlier in the year.

I'm trying to get a 2 billion valuation.

they obviously weren't able to do that.

And you know, I talked to
one of the private equity.

First

Matt: time I heard that 2 billion
valuation being shopped around.

Mullenweg: I heard it shopped around,

Matt: but not 2 billion.

Mullenweg: And they said, part of the
reason they didn't buy it is they're

like, well, they don't have any IP and
what's going on with this trademark.

They don't have a trademark license.

So I think that's part
of what's happening.

You know, I'm actually very
surprised that Silver Lake hasn't

come back to the negotiating table.

Matt: Is there IP in

Brian: open source world?

I guess just the trademark
is what he means.

Mullenweg: Because I do feel like
if, you know, if I were valuing

WP Engine, it would be under their
revenue right now, you know, because

they're, they're not growing anymore.

they're in this legal battle, which I
think they're going to lose and, yeah,

they're losing a lot of customers.

So we'll see what happens.

They're either going to, you know,
like I said, we're at war with them

or they're going to go brick by brick
and take us and other companies, take

every single one of our customers or.

Matt: That's a pretty scary statement.

Mullenweg: yeah, hopefully if they,
they could end this all tomorrow,

but happily, negotiate, you know,
Heather, if you're watching this, like

Matt: happy to talk,

Mullenweg: you know, to reach me.

Matt: And it was at this point, I'm
just like, This is where I really

started to feel like this is all
just to get to the negotiation table.

And it's just a ton of cannon fodder.

You know, this is just really like
the dark side of, of business and,

really starting to feel the weight
of that, I guess the backdrop of

the, of the WordPress community.

I feel like this is still him saying,
come to the negotiation table.

We can figure something out.

And it's just, who's going
to, who's going to fold first.

Neither one of them seem
like they want to do though.

He's publicly saying that he could do it.

And it's just like, man, if, if
all of this is just to get to

that, if all of this is at a buy WP
engine, damn, that's going to feel.

Incredibly, incredibly, difficult for
the community to swallow, but also

it's just like, doing all of this just
to get that 3% at the end of the day.

Like, if that, you know, you're
gonna negotiate that 8%, what are

you gonna settle for one, two, 3%?

Like, what's the number?

It's, it's, it's so hard.

yeah.

,
Brian: I mean, yeah, I, I just.

If, if there was that answer to that
first question, the be crystal clear

about what you're expecting from large
companies, I think that would, I think

most people would be on his side.

They say, okay, well,
he laid out the line.

This is what it is.

Agree with it.

Don't agree with it.

so obviously even him taking, trying to,
I mean, I don't want him to take over

WPNG, I don't know that I think automatic
is going to do a better job than silver,

like at this point, but the other piece
is just, It doesn't like, I understand

that all of this is to put a ton of
pressure on WP engine and to really break

them down, steal their plugins, fork
their code, cut them off, do all, you

know, slander them, do all these things,
trying to break them down to a point

where, you know, Silverlake just wants
to pull out and just drop the asset.

I just, like you said before, it doesn't
make sense what that has anything to do

with the interactions on social media
and in Slack with contributors and

community members, like I just don't.

get the, how the two have to be related.

Like why, why we have to
get one with the other?

Why can't you just do the
one and not the other?

Matt: Speeding this process up a bit,
they started talking about like what's,

what would happen through this injunction.

this is where he talks about,
getting access back to WordPress.

org.

Yeah.

Let's have a listen.

Mullenweg: And, you know, if we
lose the injection, what happens?

Well, we have to go back to the state
of what they were doing beforehand

where they access wordpress.

org.

So that's fine.

I mean,

Matt: I thought that
was part of the problem.

I thought the fact that they
had access to wordpress.

org was part of the problem and
he's just like, yeah, that's fine

if they get access to it back.

Does that mean they get
ACF back on wordpress.

org or they can just use the the mirror?

Like, so difficult to understand.

And then here's the part where We start
to realize that this could take years.

Mullenweg: Yeah, so, you know, the
estimates I've heard from, from Neil

and others is that, you know, worst case
scenario, if we lost everything, it would

be kind of happening in 2026 or 2027.

Connie: Wait, wait, say that again?

If you lost the battle, it would
take until 2026 to resolve?

Mullenweg: Yeah, if it goes to jury
and everything like that, yeah.

That's just how the legal system works.

If you look at the legal cases,
they take a very long time.

Connie: What do you do, again, I don't,
I can't sort of emphasize enough how much

animus toward you I'm seeing out there.

And also loss of

Mullenweg: support, but you know, we
notice the negative a little more.

Yes,

Connie: yes, but, but, but really, I
mean, it seems really, I, it's just so

curious to me that it would be worth
it to you to pursue this for two years.

I guess in the meantime,
how do you manage?

Sort of, you know, that community that's
very frustrated with you, with, with,

with handling this lawsuit and, and
pushing Automatic Forward for the next

Mullenweg: couple of years.

Well, we're trying to
do some press, right?

So, you know, which hopefully
translates some of the story.

there's actually going to be some,
some cover magazine articles coming

out, which is pretty exciting.

Matt: It's so tough.

It's so absolutely difficult, to
hear that answer to, to once again,

putting myself in her shoes to how
do you ask somebody this question?

Like, look what you're doing to all
of these people because of this.

And now you want to take it for years.

Like, can you mentally handle that?

Number one.

Is it worth it business
wise and financially?

And then number three, like you're doing
this all at the cost of this community.

Like, why is this happening?

is the community stuff just the, the
theater of the courts where you need

to say, I'm blocking all these people.

Look at all these people attacking me.

Hundreds of hundreds or thousands of
people I've had to block for air quotes

attacking me just to build like that
long laundry list to show the court

and say, this is what's happening.

all of this is worth it.

Even she's struggling with it.

and then this was funny where he
asked folks to, raise your hand.

if you think WP Engine is WordPress,
this was, this was kind of funny.

And I love the little comment
she threw it throws in

Mullenweg: those of you
who knew WP Engine before.

did anyone think it was like
officially associated with WordPress?

Raise your hand.

Yeah.

So.

Not that many.

At the legal.

Matt: She says not that many.

Not that much.

Because you can't see the crowd.

because of the camera angle.

And it's just like, damn man, like
this is, this just feels like you're

trying to illustrate this whole thing
because somebody, because it just has a

tactic in this whole legal, legal bout.

Brian: Yeah.

I mean, I think she, I think she
did a really good interview overall.

I think she pushed enough.

You're like, you can't, you
can't be hostile in an interview.

You can, once somebody makes it clear,
they're not going to answer a question.

There's really no use just
circling that question.

he obviously is an extremely smart
person and he has answers and he knows

where he's going with the conversation.

And he, this is all part of his strategy.

So I guess kudos to both of them.

I was, I'll be honest.

I was not expecting that.

I did not think the goal of the tech
crunch thing was going, I thought it

was going to be like, look at this
mat, look at automatic, like, I did

not think WP Engine was going to be
the exact focus of it as like a hard

hitting interview at like a care
swisher style, you know, pushback.

So I, you know, kudos to him
for agreeing to it and for her

pulling off what I thought was
really a well balanced interview.

Matt: Yeah, 100 percent agree.

I also thought it was just going
to be, you know, just, you know, a

marketing sort of session just to kind
of like have a little distraction,

especially after what he blogged
about, about not talking about it.

But yeah, it was squarely
about the fiasco.

So, Want to listen to the whole episode,
I'll link that in the show notes.

Whoever you're listening or
watching this, still no idea, what's

happening, with, with WordPress.

I've been asking the question,
like, where are we rallying?

I don't even have an answer for that.

right now.

ponder that question.

Let me know what you think.

in the world of WordPress,
where can we rally?

Like, how do we continue to put
WordPress in a positive light as

a piece of software, as a tool, as
a way to publish as a community?

Where do we rally if it's not going
to be at a WordCamp or it's not going

to be in the WordPress Slack because
we literally don't have access to it?

Where do we go?

How do we spin these things up?

you know, to keep, to keep things
going in a positive direction.

Brian, where can folks
find you to say thanks?

Brian: briancords.

com is where I've been writing or kind
of been avoiding writing at this point.

And, mostly YouTube and Twitter are
where I hang out and interact and

all the various Slack groups as well.

Matt: The WP Minute, the wpminute.

com slash subscribe to stay connected.

We'll see you in the next episode.