The WP Minute+

Matt: Hey Robert,
welcome to the WP Minute.

Robert: you for having me.

Matt: I remember you many years ago.

I believe you started, which is
still probably existing today, so

definitely, fill us in, color in
the lines as I loosely draw them on

this canvas of Robert DeVore, you
started a cannabis plugin, correct?

And, or a theme collection.

Take us down that road.

I think I want to frame this conversation
around like where you started with that.

Fast forward to where you are today,
doing all things AI, and then somewhere

in the middle, break down like, wow,
what a difference 20 years makes.

Robert: Yeah.

So when I started in like 2015, I
started saying, okay, I'm going to

do something on social media and
like try to build a web presence.

And I came out and I said, okay,
I got to start building things and

giving back and having something
to share with the community.

And it was, that was the
first thing I thought of.

It was nothing really
out there at the time.

It was like 2015.

So there wasn't really nothing.

It wasn't the industry that it is today.

So I said, okay, I'm going
to go ahead and do this.

And I built what is a very Cheap looking
plugin compared to where it ended up,

but I built the first version of it
and just got it out there and it took

off and there was a lot of companies
that were using it and they liked it.

And then I got, well, for the
nowadays terms, it's called

debanked, but I got debanked so I
couldn't process payments anymore.

And that just, it killed
all progress with it.

I've been having it on the back burner,
still kind of doing little things

here and there to it and upgrading
it, but it's just kind of sitting and

waiting now for federal legalization.

And then I got tired of.

Waiting for that and making that
be the one thing I wanted to do.

So I started looking at
other areas to focus on.

And over the years, I'm ending
up in the AI world now and

doing a lot more with that.

So it's faster paced and there's no
regulations like in the cannabis industry.

So it's a little bit easier to move and
just build and create things that way.

Yeah.

Matt: lens, 2015, cannabis getting,
I don't know all the terminology,

so you definitely feel it in here,
but, like, I know I'm in the state of

Massachusetts, it's now legal here,
there are dispensaries here, I'm sure

neighboring states as well, 2015, it
was sort of, probably when, what I'll

call, maybe not commercial dispensaries,
but, like, dispensaries for the

everyday person, to walk in and buy it
recreationally, is probably the right

term, and from the business side, did
you say, well, here's an opportunity,

Like, let me get in, let me get in
early, but we're still waiting a decade

later for this federal, adoption of it.

take us down that entrepreneurial
path, like what did you think?

Like, did you think, I can get in early
and start building this and then lots

of shops will start using my plugin?

Take us

Robert: that was my plan.

It was, I want to do something.

I wanted it to be open source first.

So that way, because there was nothing
out there and still, I think there's

still nothing really out there like that.

So I wanted to have that and
do something different like

that and be able to give back.

You can use the products without
having to pay me anything.

You can just go set them up.

That was a big thing for me in the
beginning, but I knew that there was a

need for it and there was a lot of these.

Bigger, like everything was way more
connected and you had to jump through

a lot of different hoops to be able
to set everything up and use the

different point of sale services,
which were not really web based, they

didn't have a web presence for you.

So you were trying to kind of blend
that back into your website and

nothing was really working right.

So I wanted to have something
different and I could see that

there was an opening for it.

So I went with it and it
was working really well.

And if it wasn't for the debanking,
I probably wouldn't be talking about

AI today, it would be something,
you know, it'd still be the cannabis

industry because I would still be.

In it and focused on it, but yeah, it
was just, it was a big opportunity.

I still think there's a
lot of opportunity in it.

It's just a matter of waiting for
the federal legal legalization.

And then if you're willing to jump
through like a thousand different

hoops and just to get everything off
the ground, then it's still viable,

but you got to have, from what I'm
gathering, you're going to have more

money up front now to jump in and play.

It's not as open as it was 10 years ago.

Matt: Can we talk about this
debanking thing really quick?

Is this, or is this a sore subject?

Robert: by me.

I'm an open book, so, yeah.

Matt: All right.

So, so we, so, you know, again, in,
in my place, I know, there's like

four or five, dispensaries around
me, how are they getting through it?

Or is it just because
you're like a digital good?

You can't accept that like credit
card online, or are they not allowed

to accept credit cards online?

debanking?

Robert: no credit card payment
processing that you can do online.

I've seen some dispensaries now they
have like a debit card, custom debit

cards you can use and pre populate
it with money and then use that card.

So you're kind of bypassing
it, but that's gray area.

And I don't really want
to dance in that area.

So I went, okay, I'll
stick to what I know.

And then they said, well, you know,
I was using Stripe at the time

and Stripe said, we can't do this.

I said, well, it's just software.

I'm not touching the product.

There's nothing actually
going on with the product.

Self, but they said, just because I'm
a, connected business, that's helping

facilitate the sale or the pre sale of
these products, that, that was enough

for them to say, we can't have you here.

And then it was just, you could find a
place here and there that does like high

risk payment processing, but there's
a lot more hoops and a lot more stuff

that you got to jump through for that.

So it became more of a headache
than the fun, exciting project that

I was working on in the beginning.

So I kind of just, I've just been
letting it sit there for that reason.

Matt: It's interesting.

it's a bout of bad luck, of course, right?

Because, you know, you are
ahead of, ahead of the curve.

did the thought of ever just like,
I don't know, you know, picking the

state that has like the most, locations
or a collection of states with the

most locations and maybe trying to
just work with those customers more

directly ever crossed your mind?

Or is that just like way too much work
and like, Hey, I can't really scale

Robert: we have a lot in Michigan.

There's a ton of dispensaries here.

We're like, I think second or
third to California or something,

somewhere right around there.

We're pushing, like trying to
take over the number one spot,

but it's still, it's way too much.

There's a lot going on.

And then the dispensaries themselves
have all their paperwork and legal

stuff they have to go through.

So they're not going to be able to just
kind of skirt on the outsides of things.

And I don't want to push them into that
direction and have them doing something

that they're not going to be happy
with in the six months they're upset.

So it's just a lot of like, Sitting
on your hands and just waiting now.

Matt: How much of that I've always said
this, I don't want, I'm not going to,

I don't want to throw the label like
failure on that, cause that's not, it's

cause it's not, but I've always said
like the biggest lessons are from like

the failures or the roadblocks or the
speed bumps, like whatever, however

you want to like paint that picture.

What lessons did you pull from that, that
you then like sort of reinvested in these

next projects that you started to build?

Robert: From a technical standpoint,
I learned a lot building that.

And just because I started with the
custom post types and I realized

that wasn't the structure I needed.

I did a lot of things in the very
beginning that if I was to go back

and restart now, I would never do it.

It's some, I'm on a whole
different structure and setup.

So I learned a lot technically from that.

And then from like.

The business standpoint,
it was a big lesson.

I said, okay, well, I
might have a smart idea.

I might have something that I can dive in.

And I know in my heart that this is
the right thing to do, but the industry

just said, no, you're not in the
right place, not in the right time.

You're going to have to wait on that.

And while I look at it and
I'm still going, you know,

There's nothing wrong with this.

This makes no sense to me.

I have to accept what's actually out there
and I got to work within the constraints

of whatever industry that I'm in.

So now when I'm jumping into different
spots and I'm looking around in different

industries, I'm more cautious of that.

I don't just jump in thinking my
idea is good and I know it's good.

So I'm going to go ahead and run with it.

Now.

I know there's a little bit
more pre planning and thought

process that goes into it.

Matt: over the last few weeks, or
months, and this is why, well, not

the only reason why we connected.

I definitely have, you know,
known you and we've, interacted

for, you know, many years.

but I've seen just like this rapid pace.

Of new Robert products every
three days, every 72 hours.

there's something new coming out.

and I want to get to all that.

You can find all of Robert's work.

It'll be in the show notes,
but it'll be robertdevore.

com.

You can check out all of the projects
that we're going to get into, in a moment.

one of the ones that I saw that was
just interesting to me that I saw

you, I think you took it over, but
you explain it, or maybe you built it

from scratch is Boostbox, the pop up
builder, for core editor in WordPress.

Again, it's on the site.

talk to me about Boostbox.

I, did you acquire that?

Was that from somebody

Robert: no, that was something I built.

Yeah.

I just.

Matt: And the backstory there was
like you were trying, some popups

and popup builders and you're
like, they're all terrible and you

just decided to do it your way.

Was that the first product?

Sorry.

And then also, was this the first
product that like thrust you into

making a ton of other products?

Robert: I think I've always built stuff.

Like I built client stuff.

I built stuff for myself.

I've built, you know, just a little bit
here and I'm always doing something.

I'm not content just sitting still.

So that wasn't the first one.

It was just, I looked and realized
that there's a lot of stuff going on.

Everyone's talking about the
core editor and you know,

how we should be adopting it.

So I went, okay, what
else can we do with it?

That's, you know, different and pop
ups just seem like a simple thing to.

To work with and okay, this makes sense
because everybody needs pop ups and I

won't say every pop up builders, you
know, terrible trash It's not that it's

just I thought there was a better way a
new way a more modern way And if we're

all jumping into the core editor, this
would be a cool way to do it And I wanted

to test my skills and see if I could do
something like that While building, I

ran into a couple roadblocks with how to
output the block content in the actual

pop up and learned a few things there.

So it was a learning process as well
as just another fun thing to build.

That was one, I think I built that
like a year and a half ago originally.

So it's been out there for a while and
not really necessary, the catalyst that

jump started all the other products.

It was just another one of the
many that I have out there.

Matt: WordPress for rapid development
and building these products.

How have you approached, like, so I'm
just looking at the velocity of stuff

that, that you're, shipping things, which
is amazing, how are you sort of, what's

your litmus test for saying like, okay,
people want this, cause you're, you are

shipping a lot, are you getting it into
the hands of people and you're gathering

feedback, how has that all played out for
you and like marketing these products?

I struggled enough with like,
Podcast that I do like market them

and say, God, how do I grow this?

How do I grow the email list?

So take me down the path, like
master plan for all the stuff.

How do you ship it?

Get it into the person's hands,
get feedback and build the next.

Robert: originally like, okay, so
in like it was November, I started

really rapidly pushing stuff out
and I didn't really have a plan.

It just kind of happened.

I'd build one and I go, okay, that's good.

And then I'd spark another
idea from that one.

And I'd start working on that
and it would come together

quicker than the first one did.

And then next thing I'm okay.

Now I got like four or five of them.

And I had like six or seven at
one time where I'm just sitting

there looking at him going, what
am I going to do with all these?

Because I can like, plan out
like a big release for each.

And some of them are bigger plugins.

Some of them are more like utility.

You're going to get one use out
of them or need them for like 10

minutes and then turn them off.

So I just, I knew, okay, I'll
just start releasing them.

And if I'm going to use them for
myself and I know other people could

probably get some use out of them.

There's going to be somebody that's
going to like this plugin, someone

that's going to like that plugin.

And I'll just put them out
there and see what happens.

And I didn't really have
like a marketing channel.

I put them out on Twitter.

blog on my blog about them, put out
release notes about each new one,

I'd go ahead and tweet about it.

And that was really like
the general, the end of it.

I was just, I use Twitter a lot for
that, just to push the stuff out

there and let people know that there
was something new happening and

interacting with people on Twitter,
because I feel like you could do a blog.

And if you're a developer, you could
have a blog where people can comment

on, but there's like a disconnect
a little bit because there's no

real time conversation happening.

So I try to keep Twitter as like the
one space where I'm going to go ahead

and I'll be active and I used that
and it worked out well because a lot

of people ask questions or someone
would say, Hey, what if it did this?

And I'd go, yeah, that's a great idea.

And I'd put it in there real quick.

And then I'd move on to the next one.

And I didn't, again, I didn't
really have a big plan.

There was no like
structure at the beginning.

Like I'm going to release 26 plugins and
these three are going to be the big ones.

And I'm learning now, actually, seeing
which ones are catching the most

attention and which ones actually
have the most value, like, long term.

So I'm starting to see, like,
okay, these five will be the ones

I spend more time on than others.

But there was no real marketing
in the beginning, other than just

putting it out there, getting
the stuff out there to people.

Yeah.

Matt: for WordPress,
which just seems like.

My head blows up, like how, you
know, it's such a massive and

competitive space, number one,
from like a business perspective.

And then just I think of like all
the options and all the things of

like your, like a feature list that
you might have to compete with.

you know, the, so I guess at the end of
the day is, I, let me frame it this way.

I've always found it interesting.

People are like, well, how are you ever
gonna like, 'cause this is actually just

near and dear to like, how I operate.

Like I, I think.

I'm crazy enough to think that I can
monetize a WordPress podcast brand, right?

Like I, it's a tiny audience, right?

And I've said this a gazillion times.

I think there's 10, 000 English
speaking people in the entire world

that care about this content that I
have right for WordPress business.

but I have all these other
little micro podcasts that I

create and I think collectively.

A media company can be built off of these
tiny little sub brands, if you will.

Now, I think, for somebody like you,
and especially with the introduction

of AI, which we're going to talk
about more about, Plug and Pal, your

other product, with the introduction
of AI, we can build things more

rapidly, and, you could have a dozen,
two dozen products under your cover.

single person company,
your single human brand.

And while one of them might not
be like SEO for WordPress might

not take over Yoast SEO, but a
collection of all the utilities that

you have, the sum of them all can
prop up a healthy business for you.

That's how I see what you're doing is
very similar to what I think I'm doing.

But is that how you see
all this stuff playing out?

Robert: I've always done that though.

It's, and I think like you, it's
always been, I'm not just going to

monetize one thing and say, there's
people out there that do that.

They say, I have this plugin
or this brand, and this is

the one thing I'm doing.

And I'm going all in on it.

My brain is not wired like that.

I can't do 24 hours straight of
the same thing over and over.

So I've over the years learned
I can do 12 different things

throughout the day, but it'll all.

Push forward by the end of the day, I look
back and go, okay, I got a lot done today.

And that's just how i've
approached this too.

I put out a bunch of stuff and you
know Some stuff will catch fire some

stuff won't but when someone lands
on my site now they see oh, there's

you know 50 plugins or 60 plugins
that alone adds value to when you're

looking at my products because
you're going oh He's done a lot.

It's not just One or two
products of the same type.

And then you go, well, everything
he's doing is kind of limited to this.

It lets you know, there's
a lot that I can do.

So, and that also ties into freelancing.

So if I'm looking for clients and they
come to my site, they go, there's nothing

he can't do because he's done all this.

So I know he'll, you know, I'll feel
more comfortable writing him about

my project because there's a good
chance that he can figure it out.

So I take all of that.

Every little bit all adds up.

Nothing is just one and done.

Matt: There's oftentimes like I'll
get, it's not imposter syndrome.

Maybe it's just jealousy, but like
you look at whatever, like other

YouTubers, or other podcasts and
you're like, wow, if I just like.

sold myself out and didn't care about like
the content, you know, or the audience.

And I just wanted to do like
a tech review YouTube channel.

And it was like clickbait headlines,
crazy looking thumbnails, like To me,

that's, and I know people that do that,
and actually even in the WordPress

space too, I guess, to some degree.

but I think it's they start in
WordPress and they start to reach for

like that bigger, more broad audience.

And it's just like, man, I
don't, to me that's just work.

Like to do that and I just don't,
number one, it just doesn't, I don't

feel satisfied with it and it just
feels like work and I don't feel like

any of my content production is work.

It's, I like it.

I like talking to folks like you
and I like publishing this content.

So does that resonate with
how you create your products?

Robert: there'll be products.

I have a list right now, probably like
15 or 20 that I know I still want to do,

but I just haven't gotten the mojo to
jump into them yet because they're just

not as, they don't call on me as much.

they don't feed that.

for it.

So I get started on it and I'm kind of
bummed out by like a half an hour in and

I'm looking for something else to do.

So I try to just take that and
I'm learning from that because

I used to just force myself into
that and stay there because this

is what you're supposed to do.

And I realize now it's probably not,
you find what works best for you.

And like, just like you, you're not going
to jump in there and do the weird, yeah.

You know, thumbnails and clickbait
headlines just to get an extra 50 views

because it's not right in your heart.

You're looking at it and going, I'm
just going to do what's true to me.

So that's basically how I'm
doing this too, with the plugins.

It's whatever feels right or something
I've needed myself personally, or

something I've seen someone else need.

And I'm like, I could
probably put that together.

That's how I like.

A good handful of them started,
I'd see a tweet and I'd go, that

sounds like a really good idea.

I wonder if I could do that.

And then, you know, a little bit later
I'd have the plugin built and I just

release it because it felt good to
give back, you know, I've said since

day one, open source saved my life
because if it wasn't for building with.

WordPress and learning, you know,
website customization and all this,

I would be doing so I'd be in a
very bad place knowing where I

came from as a teenager till now.

So I'm happy and thankful for it.

So every chance I get, I'm going
to give back because someone

else might be out there going
through the same types of things.

And if they find something that I
put out, they go, Hey, this is cool.

And that could spark a change in them.

that's good enough for me.

I'm not worried about becoming a
multimillionaire, you know, famous

person from all this, I'm just happy
knowing that I'm doing something cool

that I like to do and I'm giving back.

Matt: One of the things that I've been
doing with AI, I want to transition

into talking a little bit about AI.

once again, I'll just
tease the site again.

It's pluginpal.

app.

AI plugin generator for
WordPress professionals.

I've been on this journey of trying
to understand what else is happening

in the world outside of WordPress.

And, again, folks who are hearing this
now, but like, Oh God, Matt's going to

talk about the apps that he made again.

Yes, I am.

It's my show.

I'm going to talk about it again, but
it's the frame in the sense of trying

to get your, Your predictions if you
can even predict I can't even predict

that there was a conversation I was
having in the WP minute Minutes before

we jumped on this call about trying
to predict like where AI is going with

content generation I'm like, listen, I
can only think about it like two years

out Like other than that, I just freaking
no idea like where it's going to go.

whatever, I, the point is I've built these
two like utility apps, PulseWP, which

helps me aggregate my WordPress news,
Podcast Downloader, which helps me search

for podcasts and download them, right?

Very simple things that just
didn't exist or they just didn't

exist the way that I needed them.

So I think what we're trending to is a
direction where I can build a utility

app We'll call it a utility app.

That's the best name that I have for
it, to have it do something the way

the, that the end user wants, Oh, you
don't have a to do app that does, you

can't find a to do app that does it,
you know, a little sound plays every

time you click done, build it, right?

you don't have a WordPress news
aggregator that, you know, categorizes or

summarizes content like, like you want.

No, build it.

Like I did with pulse WP.

I think we're going to
move in that direction.

So, with all of that said, where do you
see the average user being able to log

into WordPress one day and go I just
need this plugin that does this thing.

I can't find it.

Let me just click a few buttons
and a few prompts and then

just have it there for me.

Is that a world you think we're
trending to or is that still very

distant from where you sit today?

Robert: say more distant
right now still, because.

For the everyday user that doesn't know
code or doesn't understand code and

they're literally just logging into
their site to write content I don't think

they're gonna have the same understanding
of how to build the utility apps and

things like that Like how we will
you've been in code for long enough.

You've been around the WordPress space
long enough You can get in there and kind

of mix it up because you know Some of the
terminology the average person's not gonna

know what class names to call or what?

Referenced version number
of like gravity forms.

We need You know, 2.

8 plus for this, they're
not going to know that.

So it's going to give them something
a little harder to work with.

They're not going to be able to get done
as fast, but long term I could see it.

It's just, there's going to be
a lot of work like plugin pal.

I wanted to set it up to where
if you wanted to create a plugin,

you could, but it's going to.

Generate the code in a clean format.

It's going to add proper doc blocks.

It's going to put everything
structured the way you want.

It's using the modern functionality.

I have it structured to where it's
going to use the more modern versions

of WooCommerce and things like that.

So when you're asking it
certain questions, it's

automatically pulling from a.

A more knowledge based data set.

So I think tools like that will become
more prominent because it's like a

bridge work between the super devs.

And then just the everyday users, it'll
be like a nice little bridge between the

two, but I don't see it overthrowing,
like you're going to log into WordPress

and go, okay, I need this plugin.

And on the plugins page, you can type a
sentence and get your own custom plugin.

Someone might build that,
but I don't see that being.

Necessity for WordPress.

I don't see that being a thing that
would actually drive it fully forward.

Like having certain AI integrations would
be nice for like generating content or

maybe writing your meta descriptions for
SEO, but having it just totally everything

AI, I don't feel like that's WordPress.

WordPress gives you the ability
to put those things in there, but

I feel like it's still its own
little core thing outside of that.

So I think AI will still be
separate from it as well.

Matt: Yeah, I was listening to, I'm also
trying to consume a bunch of, AI podcasts,

YouTube channels and stuff like that.

It is super challenging because it's
like the gold rush moment right now.

Like WordPress was when I started
my podcast like 15, 18 years ago.

When like everyone's talking
about it, everyone's covering it.

And you're just like,
talk about clickbait.

I mean, Jesus is
everywhere with this stuff.

Right.

And you just see these people like how
to make 10, 000 a month with your AI app.

I'm

Robert: yeah.

Matt: it's just not going to work.

Okay.

Like, you know, it's
just not going to work.

but anyway, I was consuming one recently.

The guy was interviewing somebody who
was building directory websites and the,

the guy that he was interviewing is a
younger kid and he was like, Oh yeah,

he's like, I, for this one over here, I
use WordPress and, you know, I was, you

know, I know, I feel, I forget what he
said, I'm going to paraphrase it, but he

was just like, this was a mistake, right?

To use, you know, WordPress
for this directory site.

And in my back of my head, knowing
what I know about WordPress, I'm like,

no, that's actually the right way.

Right?

that's what you, that's what you kids are
forgetting because you go into AI, you

ask it to do something, it gives you it,
and it's awesome, but then it's just all

there living in that ecosystem, and if you
don't know the functional components of

like the, like if you don't know React,
like I don't know React, I was building

React apps, I don't know what I'm doing.

Right?

And that's scary to me.

at WordPress, you can break it apart.

Right?

You can understand the database.

You can move the hosting when
your business starts to grow.

You can move all of these very important,
I'll say weak links or these very, you

know, pivotal pieces of technology.

Database, front end
hosting, WordPress itself.

Like you can optimize these
three core components.

Whereas if you just slap it all out
there with AI, you're just stuck to

whatever environment that you're in.

And if you don't know that
environment, now you're handcuffed.

and that's a particular challenge.

How does WordPress compete against that?

Do you think WordPress survives in
this world of attention and quick

app development that we're seeing?

Robert: long, long term WordPress will
be even better for The developers for

that reason, because right now you're
seeing nothing but surface level,

everything, surface level, everyone.

So, you know, cat with a laser,
every little shiny thing they

see, they're looking at, no,
one's really diving in deep.

No, one's really seeing where the
limitations are on certain things.

They go, Oh, this.

Builds a wallpaper generator, or this
builds this and they're happy with

it because they see these things.

It's exciting and new, but
no one's really diving in.

That's why someone can say WordPress
isn't the right thing for this type of

a setup, but it technically is because
it has all the stuff you need for it.

You just didn't realize it because you're
still at the surface level of all of it.

You're not understanding
the deeper dive in it.

And when people start to do that again,
WordPress will still be the same.

Like I think.

Recently, I was talking on Twitter.

I said, I likened it to like Cisco,
like we're in that phase now where

it's going to be a steady product.

You're going to see it everywhere.

It's not going anywhere.

Everyone thought with the drama, it was
going to just disappear and WordPress was

dead, like blogging's dead or SEO is dead.

It's.

The same thing you're going to see
it, you know, we go through cycles,

people want their fast and fun, and
then they'll get over that and realize

not everyone's making 10, 000 a month
from some simple app they generated.

So then they go back to the real
work and the real work involves

things like WordPress, where you're
going to dive in and actually build

something and not just play around.

Matt: Yeah, I mean, the user management
system alone, right, is such something

that you would take for granted.

I mean, you've been
around here for a while.

You remember these debates of like,
is WordPress an app framework?

You know, because you had that, right?

You had basically this, you had a
user login management system, you

had, you know, custom post types,
you can tie it up to a database,

you can do all these things.

And now, like, the stuff that I've
been working with, it's just like,

man, if you don't ask it to do good
user management, like, you don't get

a forgot my password link, right?

You get no password, you know, management
or, best practices and things like that.

Like, if you're not at, I mean, yes,
these things are going to get better.

Like, I understand that.

But as of right now, It's if you're
not asking for it and you don't know

about it, you're not getting it.

And that's like the biggest
issue, the biggest gap right now.

And it actually makes me
appreciate WordPress more for that.

and I hope that raises the
appreciation for everyone

across the board for WordPress.

Robert: when I built PluginPal, that was
one of the things, the forgot password

and all the different user functionality.

I built that from scratch and
it was, that was a headache.

There was lots of, this isn't even
here like it's supposed to be.

And if I'm asking the AI for user
management and it's missing out

on specific things like the forgot
password or sending an email

when they're, Account is created.

It's leaving out some of the basics.

So for someone that didn't know that
was something that was needed and

has to go back now and re request
it, they're just skipping that.

So the apps that are being built,
aren't going to be as functional.

You'll see a lot of people now
they're building apps where you

can log in and authenticate with
WordPress and post your content.

But then there's no code to review.

There's no actual downloads for it.

You're just, you're trusting that
whoever built this AI tool now

has done a good enough job to
keep everything secure for you.

So you're going to, you're going to see
a lot of that where people are going to

start questioning that more and going
back to WordPress and going back to the

basics and the things that have been
around for a while and are sound and true.

And we can see that like
WordPress is now, you know.

People are putting AI into WordPress, but
people aren't putting WordPress into AI.

it's a different setup.

So

it's not the other way around.

So I feel like we're
going to see more of that.

Like people are going to get tired of
all the 15 year olds and 17 year olds

that are building these things and
then saying, Hey, look at me, I'm super

smart, but then you tear apart the code.

And in five minutes, you're finding
vulnerabilities or you're finding

things that you're going, okay,
this isn't as good as it could be.

And I'm going to go look for somebody or
some company or someplace that's actually

doing something a little better than this.

So like you said, the gold
rush, it's the gold rush of it.

And before long, it'll go
back to normal AI companies.

Oh, sorry.

Go ahead.

Matt: yeah.

So is PluginPal a, let's walk through
some of the features of PluginPal

for those who are interested.

Once again, PluginPal.

app, check it out.

are you, so I, in the green room
before we hit record, I said, I

promise no curveball questions.

I got a curveball question.

Robert: You got it.

Matt: are you building all your
plugins with PluginPal these days?

Robert: I would say about 50 50, some
of the smaller ones, I start with this

and I will customize it after the fact.

And that's, I'm not saying that this
thing is going to be the exact plugin.

You're going to build every single plugin.

And as soon as it gives you the
zip file, everything's perfect.

It's not there yet.

The AI itself is just not there yet, but.

Every plugin I'm building now, I start
with this, and I'll get a good base start

with it, and then I just go from there.

So it saves me like, I'd say 30
minutes to an hour each time just

having to go in and clean up base
code and put the basic structure

pieces in place that every plugin has.

So it's definitely a time saver, and
I'm using it sparingly right now, but

I'm picking it up more and trying to
get more hands on use out of it so

I can put better functions into it
for everyone else that's using it.

Matt: pricing page as of, late February
2025, starter advanced elite 2040, 100

a month generate up to 100, 250 or 1000
plugins respectively across the board.

I noticed one important bullet
point here is you have design

for individual developers.

So teams, agencies, probably not
because this is probably what I'll

call like a one to one relationship.

I'm asking it to build something.

It's giving it to me.

I can't collaborate with my team on that.

I mean, I could afterwards,
I could upload it to get hub.

Maybe you actually deploy to get hub,
in the future through this, plugin pal.

But as of right now, best suited for those
who are like, look, I want to build some.

Cool plugins that I desire
to make for my own purposes.

Plugin pal probably fits
that mold pretty well.

Robert: Yeah.

And I didn't want to, the agency
level, if I'm going to go ahead and

use multiple user management that
became more complicated to set up.

So I went, okay, I'll just
start it out with this.

I'm really targeting the person, like,
like you said, the one that wants to

just tinker with an idea or has an idea
they want to build and they don't want

to structure it from the very beginning.

Scratch themselves, this gives them a good
head start or for like a developer who's,

you know, freelancing and they're like,
Hey, I got clients to ask for questions.

You ask this plug in pal a couple
of times, you know what you want

and you get what you want out of it.

And it gives you maybe an idea of
something you didn't even think of

in the beginning, or it gives you
at least the structure to go ahead

and do the work for the client.

And you know, the client's getting
well structured and clean and

secure code because it's already
baked into the beginnings of it.

Matt: So is this a SAS based app?

Somebody logs in, they
have their own account.

It's all driven through the
web or is it something they're

downloading and installing it to like

Robert: Yeah, it's SAS and
it's, payments through Stripe.

So the Stripe handles all the customers,
the payment management and the

monthly recurring fees and all that.

So, yeah, so it's all structured
right through the website.

There's no downloads to be able
to use it like on your desktop

yet or anything like that.

It's possible.

Matt: Have, yeah.

Have you used something like
Bolt, before on the web?

Robert: I've used Chad GPT.

That's pretty much the
extent of the AI I've used.

I like it.

I got used to it and I'm
trying not to jump to too many.

And I tried what I tried a couple
different, like little code

editors, like, Curb before cursor
came out, I tried a code editor

and I was like, I don't like it.

I don't want to use the
AI in my actual code.

I like the separation to be able to look
at the AI and then pull it into my code.

And cause I'll change it and update
it every time I'm copying it.

I'm not just copying and pasting or just
pressing a button and hoping for the best.

So I don't like that being right there.

It just, it got too complicated for me.

So I separate all that
and just use chat GPT.

Matt: Alright, so you're not
using cursor as your daily driver.

Robert: no.

Matt: Yeah.

Interesting.

Interesting.

I do envy folks who are developers first
who have these tools because you can

just go a million miles an hour with
this stuff and like, I'm looking at

it just like dabbling like, wow, this
is, it's like when I first discovered,

you know, well, WordPress or Drupal
with Drupal had CCK and views built in.

I'm like, I'm building queries in
the web, like in a web interface

and it's displaying this content.

For me.

Right.

Or when I first discovered gravity
forms 12 years ago, and I was like,

Oh my God, I can do this stuff.

This is amazing.

you know, and that's how I feel
about this stuff today, but I can

only imagine like folks like you can
just level up or produce so much.

and, you know, I guess your
collection of products and

plugins are a testament to that.

So, congratulations for
being able to do that stuff.

that's great.

I want to end off talking about
the state of WordPress as much as

you want to chat about it, but I
didn't want to let that quote go.

You say open source saved my life.

I think one of the most amazing things
about WordPress is how it, even to this

day, even in the face of AI and other
coding frameworks, it can help empower

somebody, to do many things, right?

You can.

Crack open WordPress, learn how
to be a web designer or developer.

You can become a publisher.

You can learn how to manage content
and this can translate into a

totally different career path, right?

If you're changing careers by just
understanding how WordPress works or

how to get a website online, you're
not just learning the WordPress side of

it, you're learning like the internet.

Side of it.

You're learning domain name, hosting,
how servers communicate to each other.

Eventually probably learning how to email
stuff and how like DNS works and all

this stuff like this is a collection of
understanding It might be old, boring tech

for many of us listening to this, but it's
because we've been doing it for 20 years

for somebody brand new into this space.

This can unlock a whole new
opportunity, of helping others,

or getting a job, right?

Because of your knowledge of
WordPress for so many areas.

That is why WordPress
is so important to me.

It's not even like.

The blogging and the publishing and the
democratization of publishing and all

this stuff, and nevermind like the agency
layer of it or freelance layer, it's just

because it can enable somebody in so many
different paths, which is why I think it's

so important, you know, that WordPress
does live on and that we shouldn't just,

you know, root for the bad guy in the room
And just want it to just disappear because

then what, you know, what do we have
left, you know, if we're not keeping this

thing going, whether you like leadership
or not, you should care that this box

of software continues to move forward.

I'm not saying I have all the answers,
but it should continue and push forward.

So now I hand the mic over to you because
obviously this is important to you.

how did it save your life and why do
you want this to continue forward?

Robert: Like, when I was a
teenager, I was doing a lot of

stuff I shouldn't have been doing.

I was involved with some
people I shouldn't have been

involved with, you know?

And I know, realistically, if I look
back now and say, okay, two more

years of me doing that versus Finding
WordPress and learning, Oh, I can

make money through the internet.

Like that was brand new to me at the time.

So when I seen that, I went, I'm
going to go this way instead.

If I didn't, I'd be in
prison or dead right now.

And I'm like guaranteed.

So I'm happy that I was able to find
something that gave me a new focus

and a new ability to see life outside
of whatever I was in at that moment.

And then I just look at it and go,
okay, if it saved me and it gave me

the ability, now I'm older and I have
a, you know, I have a family, I have a

son, so I'm providing for him with it.

And it's grown from just a fun
thing to do, to take me away

from what I was doing to, oh, and
I'm able to make money from it.

I freelanced for over a dozen years.

I haven't had, like, I've had a day
job doing agency work, but I haven't

had a day job outside of the house
and probably close to 20 years now.

So I wouldn't have had that.

You know, capability, if it wasn't
for WordPress and finding WordPress.

So for me, if it's done that for me, and
I know it's done that for other people,

I want to at least give back enough to
where I feel like at the end of it, if

I walk away from it all and I'm done
with the internet and I'm never online

again, I've done enough to say, okay,
it saved me and gave me a life, but

I've given back and I've done hopefully
enough to repay that, pay it forward.

You know, however you want to look at it.

I just feel like it's the right
thing to do, like morally.

I, if I'm getting so much out of this,
it's, I'm not going to just take and

then walk away from it and go, this
is just for me, this is all for me.

That's just, that's not, I don't do that
in real life outside of the internet.

So I don't want to do that here.

I try to bring the way I look at life
in general into business, because I

feel like a lot of people separate it.

They go, I'm just doing business now.

And they do the clickbait headlines
and the stuff that they just can't.

Morally feel like is normal to them
because they equate it as it's just

business But for me, there's a gray line
in between where the business is the

person So I try to put more of myself
into it and that's where giving back

and constantly giving back Is what i'm
trying to do I could have sold a lot of

the stuff and been like i'm gonna put
a price tag on all these things because

i'm building them and Their quality,
and I'm going to give them back, but

I'm going to want something in return.

I didn't want to do that.

That's not what the goal was.

The goal was just to show that as one
person, I can do this and give back.

And, you know, everybody can do
the little things that they can

do in their own unique ways.

And I'm not saying everybody's going
to sit down and develop 50 plugins

in a month or whatever, but you know,
if you're writing content or you're

going back and showcasing maybe some
of the basics of WordPress, like.

The, how you can work through WordPress
with DNS management or how you're going

to be able to do caching properly and
things like that, if we can get back

to some of the basics, then maybe some
of the younger kids that are building

with all these cool tools, we'll see,
Oh, I can do all this stuff here too.

And then you're showcasing that
it's more robust and it's, you

know, it's solid and there's an
actual framework here beyond just.

The basics of whatever the AI gives
you so trying to tie all that in trying

to give back and be a part of that
And just make sure that I'm leaving

everything a little bit nicer than
when I showed up if I can do that.

I'm happy

Matt: Yeah.

One of the things that I've been
wrestling with, like a lot of us,

especially the current temperature of
WordPress and the community, and what's

going on in sort of legal battles
with, Automatic and Matt and WP Engine.

it's like, how do you keep like,
obviously a positive mindset about this

stuff and like, want to want WordPress
to, you know, continue and to thrive,

you know, the biggest challenge for
me is understanding, you know, look,

there's a lot of things that have
happened that no one's happy about.

and the way that I see it is
there is no removing Matt as.

Controlling leader of WordPress proper.

How do we, is it okay to accept that?

How do we continue to
move forward with it?

Because the positive is, it enables
a lot of us to have a career.

A livelihood, right?

to teach and train others and onboard
others into this open source ecosystem.

And I think until Matt actually challenges
the open source, component of WordPress,

which I don't think he'll do, but let's
say like, that is the tipping point.

Like as much of the stuff that we've
already gone through and we're like,

man, we're not happy with that.

The way that I see it, these are
not your words, these are my words.

I see it as, until he challenges that,
I have to say using WordPress means a

vote for WordPress is a vote for Matt.

That's how I've distilled it.

And until he's disrupting the
open source nature of it, then I

have to be okay with it because of
everything that WordPress offers us.

It's not the most Articulate
way of framing it, but that's

where I'm stuck right now.

Right?

I use the word stuck because that's
where I'm just like, I don't know any

other way forward with what we have.

You know, I see people feuding on
Twitter and Blue Sky and all over

the social media and people are gonna
like, oh, we're gonna fork this, we're

gonna move in this direction, we're
gonna get new leadership over there.

Okay, great, go ahead and do it,
but it's so Small, you know, and

it's just, I mean, it's fantastic.

That is the essence of all of this
stuff, I just don't see it making a

huge impact where everybody goes, okay,
I'm going to go in that direction now.

I don't know.

There's no direct question there for

Robert: I

Matt: It's just a soapbox moment
and hoping to get your ideas.

Robert: I feel like that's how all
of us think there's no real answers.

There's no real direction.

It's just, it's Matt made it very clear.

It's his party and you're either going
to hang out in his house and eat his

chips and, you know, be okay with that.

And whatever music he plays, you
can't be mad because it's his house.

So you're there and now
what are you going to do?

You're going to.

It's like standing on his couch and
yell, are you going to like leave?

You know, what's the plan?

I think that's where everyone
has to make these decisions.

Now it's, you got to
either be accepting of it.

And I've been the biggest anti Matt
vocalist, I think that I can find, and I

still don't have a huge problem with work.

Like it's not a WordPress problem.

It's not a, I'm leaving WordPress and I'm
going to, you know, Drupal or I'm going to

stat what all these places are, you know?

Yeah.

I'm not going to none of these other ones.

Like.

I'm not jumping ship immediately.

I, if anything, I stayed and I built
more products in this time and was

helping the community itself because
it's more about the community than it

is about just the one guy up there.

Sure.

He runs it all, but his input on the.

The overall aspect of WordPress
beyond WordPress is open source

or WordPress is not open source
beyond that it's open source.

You use it for what
you want to use it for.

You can not be happy that
he's the guy running it.

You know, most of us, if we dug deep
into the products we used outside of

the internet and went, who owns this,
you're not going to like the guys you're

finding up there at the top either,
but it's the products you're using.

So you're going to choose
to use it or you're not.

And you can find ways
outside of WordPress.

There's tons of avenues you can do that.

But for people that have been
in it 20 years, like, you know,

we've been here for a while.

It's hard to just go, okay, I'm out.

And then I'm going to start something
completely fresh over here and not

have no foothold in this space.

And, you know, that's scary.

And then now you're like, okay, now I'm
dealing with like my family's involved.

So there's a lot of decisions beyond
just, oh, I don't like that guy.

You know.

I can say I don't like that guy,
but it doesn't change the fact

that I'm still here using these
products I'm building in this market.

And, you know, you just
gotta be okay with that.

And you can be okay, you can be okay
doing that while voicing your displeasure

for things and then still doing.

Matt: Yeah,

Robert: It's, I don't want
to ever go too far deep.

Like I see some people that go
down the deep end where they're

like, that's all they do now is
they rant and rave every day.

And what are you excusing?

What change are you coping with other
than just, it feels like to me, you're

looking for views and clicks and you want
the likes and you like getting retweeted.

So you're going to do more of that.

And if I was going to do that, I went
the three months at the end of the year,

I made over a million impressions on
Twitter for like the first time ever.

If I was.

Like amped up on that, I'd be at two
million now because I just go, I'm going

to do this just solely this, but it's,
it gets tiring after a while you say what

you feel and you got to, at some point you
got to move on and just live your life.

it's bigger than this.

You shut the computer off and the
world is out there and I think we,

we get wrapped up in this so much.

We forget that a little bit.

Yep.

Yep.

Matt: I love what you said.

you know, you doubled or tripled down.

You started producing more.

you know, and I think that's, that
is the opportunity right now with

everyone who will quickly turn
their backs on WordPress or step

away, you know, Hey, rightfully so.

if that's how you feel and that's how
you're going to vote, That's totally

fine, but you know, for those that want
WordPress to, you know, to continue

for all the reasons why, you know,
what, why we just said, then I think,

you know, doubling down, producing
more, educating more, creating more,

you know, and, Give and take, right?

Giving back to WordPress
and taking from WordPress.

Like, it helps you make money at
the same time and you can go and

sell stuff and build a business.

So, fantastic stuff, Robert.

you can find robert@robertdevore.com.

Robert, anywhere else you want folks
to go to say thanks or follow you?

Robert: Robert DeVore.

com, Twitter, Devio, Robert.

This is my Twitter handle on there
because someone stole robertdevore.

com like 10 years ago and
won't give me it back.

Matt: Fantastic stuff.

Also, check out PluginPal.

app.

That's PluginPal.

app.

Link will be in the show notes, but
that's an easy domain to remember.

PluginPal.

app.

That's the WP Minute, everybody.

Thanks for listening today to WPMinute.

com slash subscribe.