The WP Minute+

Matt: Mark Zemanski, welcome
back to the WP Minute.

Mark: Matt Medeiros.

It's always a pleasure.

As if

Matt: I'm dubbing it Emergency Pod.

It's not quite an emergency
pod, but there you go.

We'll roll with it just to get
the, uh, to get the clicks.

Um, you put out, A tweet.

We talked about this.

Mmm, when I jumped on the WP Town
Hall podcast, was it last week?

With Chris

Mark: Chris Pearson, yeah, last week.

Yeah, maybe, maybe the
week before, but yeah.

Matt: Frame the question,
frame the tweet, uh, for me.

It's in the title, but go ahead, say it.

What did you tweet out?

Mark: Tweeted out, has the term
open source been overused, and

therefore now largely misinterpreted?

Matt: Do you really feel that way?

Mark: Uh, is this a therapy session?

Uh, no.

Uh, yeah, definitely.

I mean, there's definitely, I ask
questions because I don't have an answer.

I don't have all the answers.

You know, I look to everyone else
to give me the wisdom and then I

can kind of like piece it together.

And, you know, you mentioned that
WP Town Hall with Chris Pearson.

Everybody should go check that out.

Interesting things.

We're probably going to call on
some of the things from there.

This question was, It had something to
do with that, maybe, uh, and obviously

everything else that we've heard about
in open source LAN and everything

like that for the last, however long.

But the other big thing was, the specific
thing, the reason that I tweeted, like,

you know, when you see something and
then you tweet, you know, a question

out, was, I was watching a video,
and it was about WordPress, like kind

of alternatives and just other, you
know, like other platforms, basically

just kind of like looking into like
Webflow and Wix and all the other ones.

And I normally go to the comments and
I just kind of see like what people

are thinking because we're always
trying to do that type of research.

And somebody said something to
the tune of, Hey, this is a nice

list, but there aren't any open
source platforms on this list.

As you know, again, you would
think alternative to WordPress.

WordPress is one of its
biggest things is open source.

So that's the concept there.

And that got me thinking, I was like,
I hear this word open source so much.

It has value, but I just feel like
it's one of those things that have

been almost like the concept of
searching for something on the

internet has become now Googled.

It's like, it's, it's almost like you
just say it and you think it means

something, but it itself doesn't really
mean the thing that you're talking about,

but you've attached to these other.

Pieces to it, and I'm not
saying that open source is bad.

That's not what I'm saying with this I
just think that we just throw it around

at this point And I feel like there's
way more things underneath it that

we've literally seen in WordPress now
When we kept saying open source, open

source, open source, but it's like,
there's really two different things.

There's like the technology, and
like the code, and then there's

also the actual brand, and all
that sort of other stuff there, so.

Matt: Let's play the clip
from your, uh, WP Town Hall.

This is where you pose the question to
Chris Pearson about, uh, open source.

Feedback loop.

Here we go.

Uh, we'll try to link up the, uh, rest
of that episode in the show notes.

WP Town Hall, search for it on Spotify
or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

And you can listen to the last
episode with Chris Pearson, uh,

featuring, of course, the hosts,
Mark Szymanski and Kevin Geary.

Um, yeah, I mean, I think he
distilled, Chris distills it

down into those two areas.

I agree with you that oftentimes,
uh, people, uh, We'll start to

give a new meaning to a word.

This goes well beyond WordPress , but
can, can give a meaning to a, a word or

a phrase, and over time, either dilute
it, change it, uh, or what have you.

I think, and I did get into
a, a bit of a, a debate with

Chris on that podcast episode.

Uh, 'cause I called in and,
and, uh, sort of talked to him

about this open source thing.

The thing that gets me,
well, let me start with this.

The thing that gets me with.

Uh, Pearson, especially in the context
of your episode is on one hand,

he's, uh, building success off of
the back of an open source project,

but at the same time saying that
open source is a big, big red flag.

I've seen and heard this across the,
our space for a while now, and it's

not something I can really wrap my head
around, um, because I look at that and

go, well, don't you see the benefits?

Of open source.

I'm not saying you necessarily have
to agree with everything in it.

Or pull all the levers in it,
which we'll break down in a moment.

But, can't you see the, the, the
driving success that at least WordPress

has had for the last 20 years?

Maybe we're coming too ahead
of all that stuff, but still.

If you launch Thesis, one of the most
popular premium themes many years ago.

Imprinted.

I don't know, using his words,
I think millions of dollars,

eight million of dollars.

Um, man, don't you see
the success in that?

And I think that that's such a hard
thing for me to wrap my head around.

When I see folks who have been successful
because of open source also say it's

not really a thing that we should want.

And it blows my mind quite honestly.

Mark: Yeah.

Matt: I mean,

Mark: I, I think that.

Using that as the example, and we,
you know, we, we had that episode.

I thought there was a lot of interesting
topics that were brought up there, and

the way that Chris kind of defines open
source is, you know, I think he says in

there, it's like, it's free, and then,
you know, and I tried to, I tried to

understand it, because it was kind of
hard to understand, like, the exact, the

exact way that he described it, and like,
he was talking about his platform and how

it would be and all that sort of stuff.

I don't know, here's where my
mind goes with this type of stuff.

It's like Open source until it
gets to a point where it's not

your type of open source anymore.

Is one of the themes that I've seen.

I think we kind of see that
in WordPress a little bit.

Like, you know, now that it's
getting to a point where, you know,

WordPress is just the biggest one
that we can kind of pull from.

And I'm not as extremely, uh,
experienced with like a Drupal or

anything else that are like this.

You could probably tell me more there.

I just think that at a certain point
it becomes where It was a free software

that everyone loved and in the run
up, it's incredibly beneficial to

everyone for it to be open source.

And again, I'm saying the word open
source and in my mind, I'm like,

that's not what open source means.

It's open source.

Just doesn't open source at the
end of day just means that the

code is everybody can see the code.

And like, does it inherently mean
that you can contribute to it or no?

Matt: Uh,

Mark: don't we get into like license
territory and licenses are different?

Matt: Yes.

But this is kind of what

Mark: I'm talking about though, is
like, we say the word open source

and like, isn't there normally
like a license attached to it?

And I understand people are just
talking, you know, trying to

get their points across quickly.

But anytime I hear that, I'm like,
it's, it's more nuanced than that.

You'd love that word.

I do love that

Matt: phrase.

It is always more nuanced than that.

And you know, in the, in the thing
that there, so there's like that.

Pearson.

Um, Component or viewpoint where You
know, at the end of the day, I would

just say, well, are you just greedy?

Is that what this distills down to?

Like, how can you, like,
you built a business off it.

Presumably you still, he still
has thesis and themes and stuff.

Like you're, you're, you're
building a solution for WordPress.

How could you hate, uh, or call
out, uh, open source is a bad thing.

It's literally, uh, the
fuel for your business.

So that part doesn't make sense.

So there's that one camp.

And then there's another camp
where I think there's the extreme

side of it where it's like, Hey,
this open source WordPress thing.

It's for all of us to have a
say, to have the direction.

Uh, don't like that pixel
that you put on the dashboard.

I want that changed and
I want it changed now.

Uh, there's that extreme side
where people feel like, Well,

we're all, we're all building this.

This should all have, you should
always have our say in this direction.

And I don't agree with that side either.

Uh, you know, I'm much more.

My own personal opinion is much more
where DHH from Basecamp sort of sits where

the code is out there, it's open source,
but I'm the driving force behind it.

Like, this is my project or a collection
of contributors projects, and this

is the direction it's going in.

It's open source, we'll certainly listen
to your feedback in the case of WordPress.

You know, we have GitHub, and of course
we have SVN version control for WordPress

core, but let's just call it GitHub.

Like, yeah, we'll take your feedback.

You can open up an issue.

You can say, yeah, you know, change
that button, add this feature.

We'll listen.

That doesn't necessarily mean
that you're going to get it.

Um, I think that WordPress has the
best chance of like, hey, if I just

want this one feature, nobody's
going to really listen to me.

But if a hundred people say they want
this feature, and they, and they rally

behind it, Well, now we have a better
chance if a thousand people do it.

Well, now we even have a better chance
to get this deployed into WordPress.

So I think WordPress gives us the best
chance at that utopian scenario of open

source, but I don't necessarily agree
that it's guaranteed in my opinion.

Mark: Yeah.

I mean, I, where I'm going with
that and where I'm thinking when

you say all that is like, what, uh,
10 years ago, did you feel like.

From a top down perspective of like
WordPress, did you feel like it was more

We are building this together, it's all
of us in this together, we're going In

a direction that almost everybody wants,
like everybody has a say in everything

like that Contrast that, I'm assuming
I know the answer to that question,

what is the answer to that question?

Matt: It's nuanced, but It's uh, I've
never felt like it was uh I never

felt, personally never felt like I
was a part of building WordPress.

I always felt like I was a part of
supporting WordPress, if that makes sense.

Like, I knew it would
have its issues, you know?

Um, but at the same time, like, I was
there for the mission of, you know.

That's how I've always approached it.

I never felt like It was a me thing
or I never said myself shoulder to

shoulder with these other developers
and said we I'm much more like

you guys are doing a great job.

Let me help you.

Let me help you get this, uh, to
the finish line with what I can do.

Um, which is an interesting point because
I believe there are people who feel

very opinionated and, um, on both sides
of like the positive and negative in

the WordPress world where they like, I
know I've committed code and nobody's

listening to me where I committed
code and they're not taking this.

Um, yeah.

Which should be.

And that's something I don't know.

I've never felt cause
I just can't do that.

I just can't do that.

You know?

Mark: Well, I, I don't have, again,
I don't have specific answers and I

don't, I'm not trying to criticize
anyone with the things that I say.

I just think of it like I really
like this type of like human

business psychology aspect.

I don't know why, but I just
like these nuanced topics.

And I just feel that.

From a pattern recognition standpoint,
which I also feel like I somewhat can,

can do reasonably well and like just see
and observe is that I feel at a certain

point, it's always going to continue to
go, it's going to manifest into this thing

where every, it was smaller, it was more
tightly knit, everything was like that.

And it was like open source, like
everybody's kind of driving and

rowing the boat in the same point.

I actually don't know of a way,
and again, we've talked about this

before, where WordPress has gotten to
this point now where it's so big, I

don't know if there's actually, It's
like completely uncharted waters.

I don't know how you could
possibly make everyone happy.

I don't think it's, I don't even know
if it's possible to make everyone happy.

But at the same time, I do think that
there's like, There's conflicting

things where maybe you have like,
Just as a, as a, you know, as a

figurehead, Matt Mullenweg has an idea
for what he wants WordPress to be.

He always has, and now he has to like,
again, we've talked about it for X, Y,

and Z reason has to actually like enact
it a little bit more and put a little

more pressure behind it or what have you.

But then you also have like real, I mean,
I'm sure it's always been like this.

You would know there's always been
thought leaders in this space of

WordPress and WordPress adjacent
web design, and they actually have.

things that they say based in fact,
reason, experience from all these

other things that actually mean
and make sense to a lot of people.

And then a lot of times
those views conflict.

And I don't think it's
like on purpose thing.

It's literally just because humans have
different thoughts and stuff like that.

And this is where we kind of come
and it all comes back a little

bit to the open source thing
because we have a project that.

But I feel like, whether or not it
was intentional or not, always kind of

build as like, anytime you hear that
word open source, it's like you're

a part of it and you can enact like
kind of the change and everything.

But then it, then a lot of times
other people, it doesn't end up

feeling like that, especially
when it gets to this level.

Again, I don't have any answers.

I'm just trying to observe that.

So

Matt: yeah, I think I, I rarely
the glass half full kind of person,

but in this case I am because.

I just look at the alternative,
which is absolutely zero say,

right, in anything, you know?

Um,

Mark: you know The one
thing I would say that

Matt: Go

Mark: ahead.

I don't want to interrupt you with that,
but I think it's a really important point.

The one thing is that I do kind of feel
like, whether it was explicit or not,

or it has been explicit or not, maybe
it's just like the stuff that I consume.

Would you rather have like a complete
Uh, I don't know what an ex like,

complete, like, dictatorial approach
where, like, you absolutely know that

you have no say versus the other end
of the spectrum where you it's, like,

almost anarchy, like, you can kind of
do whatever you want, like, you have

all the say, I don't know, whatever.

But there's a middle ground like the
middle ground is always weird where it's

like you feel like you have a say but
then You don't end up actually having one

and now you're just confused my I'm not
saying that's exactly where we're at I'm

just saying that I feel like most of the
time people would rather be told exactly

What the rules are rather than the rules?

being so obfuscated and gray.

And again, it's a difficult thing.

I'm not saying these are easy problems.

I'm just kind of giving you my
perspective on it because I'm trying

to be a little bit of the mouthpiece
for the things that I hear and see

and all that sort of stuff, just from
the people that I associate with.

So, that's kind of always what I've
felt really for like the last like year

and a half just like trying to feel
everything out is, uh, it's really big.

And I don't know if there's a way
around those types of things but

that's, that's kind of how I feel like.

A vast majority of people that are kind
of in it feel like in it to the extent

that they care about the stuff that
you make stuff that I make, you know?

Matt: Yeah, I can certainly sympathize
with, you know, folks that want more

clear cut, you know, guidelines and rules.

I think that's something that WordPress,
the community has always been seeking.

Um, where are those upper limitations?

Who's really doing what?

Um, You know, marketing team, what kind
of access do you probably, you know,

that you, can you have, uh, what kind
of access do you have, what kind of

access actually makes sense from, um,
I know this is so hard to say it this

day and age with what we've, uh, you
know, uncovered with, with Matt and.

org and stuff like that, but what
kind of continuity, like, you know,

I think any, we've talked about this
before, like any volunteer marketing

team, like, can you really get, Yeah.

Pure Google Analytics access
to an enterprise as big as org.

I know, given what we've come
up with, but just hear me out.

Uh, you know, any, if it was, I don't
know, I can't think of another, like, non

profit off the top of my head that would,
that this would roll with, but like if,

if there was a big non profit in your
local town, you know, millions of dollars

worth, and You were all just volunteers.

Would you expect to get, like, access
to Google Analytics and the data

behind this stuff as just a volunteer?

Probably not, right?

Like, it's probably not
going to get that access.

So there's like these up, these
limitations that we, that we run into.

Um, and I know that's super challenging.

Um, but I also look at it as,
you know, We have an opportunity

to have some say in this stuff.

And maybe that's not good
enough, you know, for people.

I think people look at
WordPress as something that

is so vital to the open web.

I agree.

It's so vital to the open web
that people should have it.

But I don't think, I don't
think that's a reality.

Like, I don't think that's a reality.

We, it's not a utility, WordPress.

Right?

It's not water.

Okay?

Like, we, we can't, we can't have that.

And, and, you know, I think that's
the, I think all these questions that

you have, and I still have, are really
being pushed, uh, or, or pressed

right now because of, of what we, and
we've never seen anything like this.

Um, you know, and this is really
pushing the boundaries of, of

Open Source and what it means.

Mark: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't
know, I think that if A question

was posed to like, you know,
again, just Matt as the figurehead.

It's like every time that I've, but
I would have to, I'd have to go back.

I'd have to know again, like 10 years
ago, what, what the vibe was like, what

the answers were like when anytime like
he or anybody was asked a question,

it's just like, I feel like it's always
like, Hey, we want, somebody says, or a

group of people say, we want X, Y, Z in
Gutenberg or in WordPress is the answer.

Yeah, that's a really good idea.

Or is it more like, yeah, like, well,
like, I just feel like if, if I feel

like every time I've heard Like, again,
just Matt, as an example, speak, it's

like kind of, it's not really answers.

It's again, like, again, maybe
big founder, kind of like

political speak almost in a way.

And I just feel like that is something
that people have just really just across

society have just learned to just snuff
out and just like, this is bullshit.

Like I'm tired of hearing, like,
maybe we will, maybe we won't

like this middle ground thing.

It's more, if somebody asked
me that question to be like,

yeah, there's like a pretty low
likelihood we're going to do that.

And then it's some, in some ways.

You might be pissed at that answer, but
you might respect it a little bit more

because it's like, okay, well, at least
he told me like how he actually feels.

Again, I'm not criticizing Matt.

I don't know.

I'm not saying he ever like he's
doing that specifically, but

I, I'm just saying like from
everything that I've not just him.

It's just, it seems like
kind of more like that.

It's like we have a direction.

We know what the direction is.

You know, again, like we talked about
the blogging, the publishing, like

those are valid things, but then
other people have different thoughts

on where the platform should go.

But at the same time are not specifically
empowered to make those decisions, but

people are, you know, I feel like there
is a fair amount of people that actually

agree with those sentiments and then
it's now you get in this point where

like you have this this like conflicting
like the brand and the people that back

and have power versus like all the The
lay people, so to speak, or whatever,

just the users that have opinions.

And it's just like, now, where are we at?

It's like, are we, are we
listening to our users?

Are we not listening to you guys?

I mean, that's a whole
nother conversation.

Do we think that WordPress is
listening to the users or not?

Largely we've had this
conversation many times.

I think there's a lot of inactive
voices in the WordPress community

that we don't even really know what
they want because they're just, you

know, they're doing other things,
so that's a whole different thing.

But I mean, if we could go back
just to like the very beginning of.

Because that's a lot of good
context around open source.

The thing I would say is like, Do you
believe that the word open source,

when you hear it in the wild, is often
like, I, Over, when I said overused and

misinterpreted, I meant because so many
people like, use it as kind of a buzzword,

it's a real word, it means something, but
I just feel like people are attaching more

things to it than what it actually means.

Particularly in the context of WordPress,
because Really, I was going to tweet this

out too and we could have a discussion
about it here because it's pertinent.

I was going to tweet something out like,
you know, we were having a chat, I think

there's a thread in the WP Minutes Slack,
and I was thinking in my mind, the thing

that was coming to my mind as I was
putting all those pieces together, is

the revelation that there's WordPress,
like the brand of WordPress that really

everyone knows, like that's the real value
of the name and like what the platform is.

And then there's all the code, certainly.

But those are two different things.

It's like the code is open source.

Like you could take
WordPress and go do it.

But the brand it's in you, but
you have to rename it, right?

Like you wouldn't be able to just keep it.

The brand itself is where the value is.

And Matt Mullenweg, unless I'm
getting something wrong, like

owns that and controls that brand.

So like, that's where the actual value
is mostly like, obviously the code

is valuable, like I'm not trying to.

the contribution of all the people
making this, making the code.

But I'm saying that those are
two very different things.

And we are now in this, I feel like
we're in this weird spot where people

are saying open source and they're
attaching these, these weird like

brand attributes to it and whatever
they're making, you know, like whatever

the, the conclusions are drawing.

And that's just not,
that's not a one to one.

It's like, yeah, the code's open
source, but it's Matt Mullenwig's thing.

And I just feel like that's not.

I'm not even saying that's wrong.

I'm just saying, like, I like,
again, I like the clear vision of

what's going on, and I don't, I
just don't see it all the time, so.

Matt: Yeah, I mean, again, there's
so many variables here, but they're

certainly, like, Matt's vision of
what that means to to be a WordPress

contributor, not only just like where
the project goes and like how he divvies

up like dot org and dot com initiatives
or automatic initiatives, like how he

sees contributions, there's him, there's
like figureheads in the in the community.

There's a lot of stuff like
this isn't this is not easy.

Yeah, but but I think I think
maybe your biggest like just

hearing you like play this out.

So, I'll answer your question with a
question before I get to it, but I think

your, your biggest issue is that people
are thinking they have more of a say in

this project, in the direction it's going.

Is that really the biggest challenge
you see out there when people are

maybe misconstruing open source?

It's that they just think
that they have more ownership

in this than they really do?

Mark: I think that's part of it.

Is that the biggest?

Mm.

It's probably pretty, I see it as

Matt: the big, I see it as the biggest
issue, but I don't know how you say it.

It's

Mark: probably, it's probably pretty big.

Yeah.

But it, but that particular
part of it only impacts the

people that you and I speak to.

Like, it only impacts, uh, you know,
it only impacts this 10,000, you know.

English speaking and obviously
abroad people that like actually

care, you know what I mean?

Like that, that, that number that
we've kind of like, you know,

talked about before I feel like,
because everyone else like probably

wouldn't necessarily care about that.

The other thing that's like interesting
though, is that secondary part where

people talk about WordPress, like
it is literally a project that's for

everyone by everyone almost, but really
the brand I still think seemingly

belongs to Matt Mullenweg, which
again, I'm all for people doing their

own thing, having their own thing.

I love that.

Like, I think you should be
able to have your own thing.

But I'm saying that I think that just
throughout the years, again, maybe not

even intentionally, it has gotten to
the point where everyone feels like,

this is like huge, hugely crazy, too.

Because it's 20 years in the making.

Like, we've, I don't think in
history, you know what I mean?

Like, it's, this is kind of a phenomenon
where there's so many People that, again,

I say this all the time, that feel very
attached to this platform and they feel

like maybe they didn't build it, but
they've been around for a long time.

They want to see it continue
to prosper and stuff.

And then everything we've seen
now is just kind of weird.

It's thrown a little monkey wrench
in there and it's like, ah, I didn't,

I didn't know it was like this.

I didn't realize that, you know,
Matt had full control or whatever

that, you know, whatever the,
whatever the thing is, it's just.

So I think that a lot of people do
feel like they have more of a say, and

then I feel as well, as a little bit
of a sidebar to that, that there's only

certain ways that you can absolutely
contribute to, which we've had this

conversation ad nauseum, but, um, you
know, I still think that there's extreme

value in educating and providing thought
leadership outside of a GitHub repo.

But I've never really felt
like that's actually fully, uh,

appreciated necessarily to nth degree.

It's tried, definitely not trying to
make a complete blanket statement there,

but yeah, that's, that's kind of what I
would, it's definitely a big challenge.

And I think a lot of people are becoming
tired of it, I feel like in a way.

Matt: So, I mean, there's probably
is, you'd have to go back to like

Linux, Linux kernel, uh, and.

Probably, roughly the same amount of time
ago when WordPress was really blowing up.

Like, there was a lot of
debate, and probably still is.

I just don't follow it anymore by
any stretch of the imagination.

But, the Linux kernel and that open
source and, uh, Who has control over that?

I mean, that was hugely debated
way back, uh, you know, in the day.

So, there are projects, probably Linux
is the only other project at scale

that you would actually even hear
about the challenges of open source.

Everything else is probably a lot
smaller, Drupal being the next and,

you know, it's just a human thing.

And people not, you know, getting
along or, you know, seeing eye

to eye and wanting the vision
and ownership, yada, yada, yada.

Um, Ruby on Rails with, uh, DHH
and his, his framework, uh, it's

just a much smaller footprint.

Plus, WordPress is unique because you
have just such, at least in my view,

there's such a, uh, mix of people.

You know, hardcore developers, uh,
marketing and content people like you

and, and me, uh, end users, business
owners, investors, venture capital,

um, you know, and then all the while,
like, you, you, the enigma of Mullenweg

and the control over all of this stuff.

There's just so much more.

Um, and plus it's massive.

So you have like this perfect
storm of like this massive thing.

Empowering a chunk of the
internet for over 20 years.

All these different kinds of people
with different goals and ambitions.

So it just gets amplified.

You know, much more than any
other open source project.

That's just me sort of framing.

Yeah, there's probably
the same stuff happening.

Just at lesser degrees in
other worlds of open source.

AI being one of them.

I mean, we see this with DeepSeek.

Um, allegedly it's open source.

It's open source.

Um, we don't know.

But, you know, HuggingFace is
a massive open source community

for all AI technologies.

Um, there's just a million
technologies on HuggingFace versus

one WordPress, um, at that size.

So, I mean, we see it.

You just don't see it like
you see it in WordPress.

Um, plus I think,

I want to say, Again, I'm rarely a half
glass full kind of guy, but I think

like there was a lot of, um, structure
built, loose structure built to have

the democratic, uh, apparatus
of WordPress, right?

For better or for much
more for worse, right?

So it was kind of built.

But it didn't really, you know, it
was, it was kind of built like to have

this democratic apparatus behind it,
but you know, for years before all of

this stuff, we were kind of like, all
right, we all know Matt pulls the, pulls

the strings behind, behind the scene.

Um, so I don't know, it was kind of good
that that was there, but also kind of

bad because it, it led us, it led a whole
bunch of people down this direction that

they thought they had this ownership
and this say, uh, but they truly didn't.

Right?

On one hand, I'm like, it's kind of cool
that it was there, but on the other hand,

it's like, eh, it was a lot of false hope.

So I totally get it.

Um, you know, I get your
point of view on that stuff.

Are you saying that exists though?

Mark: Say it again.

You're saying, you're saying
you agree with that though?

Like you, you, that's your estimation
that that did, that is the case?

You've been here longer than me.

Again, I'm

Matt: relatively new.

You know, you have, I mean, look at,
you had meetups, you had word camps,

you had, um, You know, the, the
bigger milestone WordCamps like US,

uh, before WordCamp Europe and Asia,
like this stuff all evolved over time.

And there was like this inertia that we
were all there, man, like we're all there.

We're all building this.

This is all us, right?

You know, and then you'd
have, uh, contributor days.

Uh, you get there early, you write some
documentation, like you're feeling like

you're a part of this thing and you
are and you're making a difference.

Believe me, it's like, yeah, certainly
it made WordPress what it was.

But you just never really
had that full control.

Um, but you had teams.

Again, marketing team.

Media core.

Don't even know what the hell
is going on with that anymore.

Right?

You have Slack.

You have, you know, all these
things where you can, you can jump

in and be a part of this stuff.

So that's like that apparatus
part where you kind of feel

like there's something there.

Right?

Like your local town or
city has a parks board.

Uh, uh, you know, um, Uh, historic
commission board, like you have all these

boards, and it's just like, oh, people
can, you know, apply and be on these

boards, and you're like, oh, we're all a
part of this thing, we're all, you know,

making this thing move forward, and you
kind of had that semblance in WordPress,

it's still there, I don't know how, you
know, for much longer, but, um, it was

sort of that feeling, like we're all
doing this thing together, right, and

that's that, what I'll call that false
democratic hope, you know, that you

all had a say, and you did have a say,
but certainly, The big direction of the

project, of course, now with dot org
dot com, like we all know, like we never

really had that control in the foundation.

Um, but I think that we're
all led to believe it.

Not even intentionally,
not even intentionally.

There was like a hope that it was
going to be like this democratic.

Well, I think it's

Mark: great.

I think it also probably wasn't here,
but I feel like Who started WordPress

meetups, you know, I mean like just
as an example, like it probably just

kind of happened serendipitously
because You know people saw this thing.

It was free.

You could get into it easily.

It was powerful I'm sure Matt probably
encouraged it heavily at a certain

point like when he saw his hat I mean
I could put myself kind of in that

shoes I don't know exactly what he's
feeling but like you build this thing

People are adopting it like crazy
Unbelievable timing, you know what I mean?

Like all these, all these variables
together And now you see all these people

popping up And they're like, you know,
I, I, I try to empathize as much as

possible If I was a founder of something
like this, like, you know I got people

that are making meetups about my shit
And like, you know, like, they wanna

do conferences, they wanna do all this
stuff I'm sure he didn't like, envision

all that, maybe he did But I, I, I
don't think he like, you know, I don't

think he was like Had a premonition of
like all this stuff happening, right?

So it's like, I can totally get that
Uh, and I just feel like You know,

it's a little bit of Monday morning
quarterbacking type thing, but at the

same time, it's like, I look at these
things and I think how, if I was going

to do something, any, anywhere, like
even a micro amount of this scale,

what would I like try to remember?

And it's like, how do you keep the
people's understanding of what is going

on, like in check and in alignment
with what you actually kind of want?

And maybe his, as an example,
him and whoever else like kind

of changed along the way as well.

But.

I don't know.

I'm looking at all this and I'm thinking,
was, is there a way if we could replay

it or just like, you know, like no
for the next like WordPress thing

that we, that we build or whatever,
not, I'm not saying an alternative

WordPress, but the next type of thing,
like what will we do differently?

I just think these exercises
are important and educational.

Like, would we focus on making
sure that we're monetizing the

backbone, like heavily, like heavily
monetizing the backbone of the thing

that's free and open source so we
don't like get like to a point.

I'm not saying it is, but it seems
like that's partially it, right?

We've talked about this many times where
some, at some point you got to make money.

It's just how it is.

And I know that Automatic does make money.

I'm just saying that like, the thing
that you're giving away for free and

is extremely valuable, you do have to
somehow monetize some aspect of that

to make sure that the people that are
using that don't go out of business.

Or like, the platform doesn't
lose, you know, adoption, right?

You know, stuff like that.

Uh, I don't know, I just try to
think about all that, and, um,

I'm not saying it's easy, and,
uh, but we're in a weird spot now.

Matt: I also think, like, there's open
source, like, things can be open source,

and I think we're gonna see this really
get pushed because of AI, uh, coming up,

is, like, if I'm starting to build little
software solutions, and by the way, open

source doesn't always have to be, like,
software, um, If I'm starting to build

out these little software solutions and
I want to open source it, it's this tiny

little thing that does one like, just like
plugins, any kind of tiny little plugin

that's uploaded to to wordpress.org.

Your favorite, most basic WordPress plugin
that does this cool little utility thing

that you can't live without is open source
and it doesn't need to be maintained.

By a thousand people and have the
meetings in this apparatus that we've

had with WordPress because it just
doesn't need it does not require it.

So, I think looking at open source
and what I, what I don't want to do,

here's what I'm trying to get at.

What I don't want to do is to beat up
on open source as a bad thing because

of what has happened in WordPress.

Right?

Because I I I I I'm with ya.

Yeah.

It's just the same thing.

Like, I have the debate
with like, Kevin and others.

Not just Kevin, but like Don't let, you
know, don't let video take over podcasting

because then we start to push out, like,
the essence of free and open publishing.

Right?

So I say the same thing
about, like, open source.

And I'm not this crazy open, like,
I'm not running, I mean, we've

talked about it, I'm not running,
like, Graphene OS on my phone.

I'm not using a Linux, uh, uh, uh,
computer like I used to back in the day.

And by the way, neither is Matt.

He's running iOS and he's
talked about Matt Mullen way.

He's talked about this.

He's still using Apple,
which is closed source.

Like you can't just be like 100% consumed
by it, but the idea of that just existing

challenges, the status quo, deep seek,
open source, challenged, open ai, um,

WordPress challenges, any closed source
CMS, and these things help balance.

There's a balance there.

Like the, the swing of the pendulum
going side to side and sometimes it's

really good for WordPress, sometimes
it's really bad for WordPress.

And I think the existence of this
stuff challenges that status quo.

And the one other thing I want
to, I want to remark on is before

I forget, is Keys to the Kingdom.

Mark: Oh my god.

Matt: There is, like, I think, you
know, for everyone, Like, saying the,

the, I know it's so hard to say these
days, so don't come after me, but, you

know, like for all of the criticism you
want to give Mullenweg and WordPress,

it still remains free and open source.

You can still take it, walk down the
street and charge somebody 10, 000

to put a WordPress website together
for you, 100, 000, you can still

profit off of this open source thing.

So as much as you want to criticize it
and beat up, uh, you know, Mullenweg and

the decisions, some of them rightfully so.

And the challenges of this stuff,
you could still take from WordPress.

You can still run, have a
career off of WordPress.

So that's why I say you can still
take from it, but don't beat up on it.

You know, again, Pearson from your podcast
episode makes absolutely no sense to me.

You know, build, build off the back of
WordPress and then just beat it up because

you didn't get along with, with Mullenweg
and, and some of the, uh, of the things.

You can debate the technology and
the process and all that, fine.

But at the end of the day, like, the
thing still allows you to survive.

And that's, that's the thing for me.

Um, you know, when I, when I hear these
debates from, from folks who have made a

ton of money off the back of WordPress.

Mark: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think that
I would, when I hear you say beat up

on WordPress, I would need to know.

Like almost specifics on what you mean,
like, what is your definition of beat up?

Because I just, and maybe this is,
maybe this is a weird thing that I

and other people do, I just feel like
Criticism is valid in a lot of ways

Especially the way it's delivered.

Like, I feel like a lot of times when
I'm saying things I'm just like observing

and I'm being like, hmm I'm asking,
almost like asking a question, like I

wonder why they did it like that or I
think there might be a better way To

do that and they're, people are free to
not take Like that into consideration.

Sure, it's not my thing.

I don't, whatever.

But, at the same time, I just feel
like there's another angle of that.

What you said there, where people
are utilizing WordPress and they

are charging somebody money for
that and they're doing it in a sense

of they, they feel like that's the
best decision for their business.

And then, you know, X, Y, Z happens,
new update happens, whatever.

And it like, it's just totally
Kind of like against with it.

I don't know.

I, I don't know.

I, and I mean, it kind of goes
back to the yin and yang thing.

I think you were talking about, like with
like closed source versus open source

and I'm really not a hundred percent
like, like I'm, I'm feeling that,

but I would need to think about
that more because it feels like

a lot of stuff is closed source.

And there's not like, it feels like
open source is kind of from my macro

lens of just a couple of things that I
watch, it seems like closed source is

winning like a lot from what I've seen.

Like if you, if you see like,
like all of the, the um, website

alternative things that I see,
a lot of them are closed source.

Well, I don't know.

You'd have

Matt: to define what winning means
because WordPress still has a massive.

Mark: I don't mean winning in like an
absolute, I mean like winning as far

as if you look at WordPress versus like
these other ones, like, like just as

like, like WordPress or the alternatives.

And then you see the alternatives and a
lot of them are like the Wix, Squarespace,

Shopify, that type, Webflow type thing.

So I, I just, this is, this
is, again, I've talked about

this, this is a societal thing.

I feel like we're just like becoming
way less like willing to have

like open source and like you are
a literal living testament to.

You have to fight for it, pretty much.

And I don't know if people
really want to fight for it.

I think that they just want to
have the thing that they want.

And I'll tell you this much, I'll
tell you this much too, okay?

Because this is a different angle of
this whole, this whole conversation.

But it's very relevant.

Let me compare and contrast two things.

When I want a new feature in WordPress, or
when I think of, I have that conversation.

I would have to go into github
and make a ticket or whatever and

I don't do that nearly enough.

Maybe I guess as I'm
supposed to or whatever.

Okay, fine, fair.

But I'm making like WordPress
videos and all that sort of stuff.

I use Sass products that are
closed source, you know, just like

the things that you use, right?

StreamYard, Restream,
like whatever, right?

When I want something changed in those
platforms, I either go to the feature

request or I find the person that actually
makes that change and I tell them and

it's like normally pretty fast because I'm
not like saying some weird niche thing.

It's normally something like, Hey,
this is kind of like a very normal

feature that needs to be in here.

And if you guys want to compete with
these other people, like, I don't

understand why you can't, why I can't
move things around on my streaming,

you know, set up like I, like I would.

And I did that for restream and it worked.

So.

Maybe you're going to tell me just go
throw it in GitHub, but I just feel like

that is, that dichotomy there, at least
in my personal experience, has been very

different, I feel like, in one avenue.

And again, it's not a dig at open source,
I'm just wondering like, what are the

inherent differences there, and then
psychologically, societally, are we more,

are we just becoming more of like a closed
source capital money type system, where

like, This, these people are paying us.

We're going to listen to them from
like the, from the brand perspective

versus this is an open source project.

We're going to do
whatever the hell we want.

Uh, we'll consider what you want,
but ultimately we have our own things

that we're trying to do here, that
or that, whatever you have to find

your own developer, basically that
knows what they're doing to put

these things in that type of stuff.

I don't know, just a
bunch of thoughts there.

I know there's a lot, but

Matt: yeah, I mean, I, I think
that, you know, the challenge,

yes, 100 percent you are correct.

Uh, Probably the most phenomenal
thing I've ever heard you say.

Wow.

That you have to fight.

Clip it.

Right?

Like you have to fight for
this open source thing.

And that's why, this is why I
don't, I don't give up on it.

Because the more you push it away, Um,
WordPress still has a long way to fall.

Trust me.

Yeah.

But.

We've never, you know, we've definitely
seen some of these, these glacial moves

over the last few months where you
really start to feel threatened by it.

Uh, but yes, you must fight.

And I also believe that, to some
degree, I know the haters are going to

come out, that Matt is also thinking
of, is fighting for it right now.

Fighting for his business,
Automatic, to stay relevant.

Poor went out, if I wasn't in my office,
poor went out for Brian Kord's, right?

Fighting for his, his business to
stay relevant, because he does see

himself as, sees Automatic as the
only champion for WordPress, whether

you agree with that statement or not.

I think that he believes Automatic
is the only champion, and rightfully

so, with the amount of hours that
he's, and money that he's put into it.

Um, and he does want to defend that.

I too want to defend it.

Not because I want it.

Because I want to be able to
tell WordPress what to do.

I want to have a say.

It's cool.

But I also want it to survive
because I think it's a great

app that humans should want.

Uh, you know, want from,
uh, freedom of publishing.

So, yes.

Fight for it.

For open source.

Fight for open publishing.

And the open web, technically.

Um, so there's that.

Um,

You know, the, the, the other
stuff about You know, contributing

and giving back like, yeah, we
have, it's an imperfect system.

It's an imperfect system.

How many times have you called up, you
know, the paying corporate company,

Xfinity, right, your cable provider, if
you have that in your area, and you're

like, I got a problem with my bill.

Okay, let me push you over here.

You talk to this next person,
I got a problem with my bill.

I was not in this department, let
me push you over to this department.

And you're just like, God damn, like,
I just want to get this thing solved.

Right?

It's just an imperfect system that we have
with WordPress, but a system nonetheless.

Which also, you know, it
contributes to its issues, right?

Like, go put it in GitHub.

I get it.

Don't like it, but that's the system we
have not saying it's perfect And yeah

It takes one person from the from the
github aisle to reach across to the normie

aisle and say hey, what do you need?

You know, but then sometimes
you have to go into the github

and go what is an issue?

Okay, I'll draft it and create it.

I'll provide screenshots.

There's a little bit of give and take
and that has certainly been an issue

for WordPress, but also Again, as you
watch the, the, the, the two camps

collide, hardcore developers that
get this stuff, average users who are

trying to make a living with it, and,
uh, it has caused, you know, it's

caused this, this rift, um, over time.

And it's, and again, it's,
it's just not perfect.

Um, yeah, and, and, and that's, and, and
that's where, that's where we've, that's

how we've come to this, to this pass, at
least on, like, the communication side.

Because I've always felt like no
one's ever listened to me either.

Right?

Which is why I started a podcast
to talk about this stuff.

From like the business perspective.

You know?

And I think that um, yeah, a
lot of folks don't feel heard.

And can't make progress in this space.

But at least the space exists.

It doesn't, it makes sense in my
head, you know, when I say it, it's

like, we, we could have nothing.

Um, and on the commercial side, like you
say, like commercial side is winning.

Um, yeah, I mean, maybe on like a
feature set level, but you can, you

would also say that Wix and Squarespace
or Webflow are not as big as WordPress

because not just because of the dollars,
but because there aren't people behind

that machine pushing it forward.

So, it's like, it is a testament
to the WordPress community that

has pushed WordPress so far.

Um, and it's adoption, because there
are people who do care, who say,

Nope, I'm gonna start a web agency,
and I'm gonna advocate for WordPress.

Whether or not they even think of it that
way, Um, I think that that is something

that has, has really helped WordPress.

And, uh, that's something
that Matt definitely lacks

in seeing, because, you know.

He's got his lane and he's
seeing it from his perspective.

He's forgetting that there are thousands
of people who are like, Cool man, I'm not

even, I don't even want to contribute,
I just want to help this cool product.

People use it, just want
to have people use it.

Um, and that's a huge reason why
WordPress has been successful.

It's folks like you and me
who have advocated for it.

Again, whether or not you're
thinking of it actively, like

I'm an activist for this thing.

I'm like, Hey, this thing's
pretty cool, let's use it.

And it's free, it's this open source
thing and a bunch of people use it.

It's good to just like distill
down to that and you're just like

cool use it versus this company.

I have no idea about Wix You know, I
don't know if that answers your question,

but that was um, that's how I see that
commercial side of defeating WordPress

Mark: Yeah, I think that it's just
I Really go back the more and more

that I talk about this stuff and
and then in some ways it's really

like a large conversation about

I don't want to say like large
conversation about one guy, so to

speak, but it is like a lot of it really
comes back to, again, I feel like the

control that, that Matt Mellenweg has.

And again, I, I'm really like an

Matt: open.

So you see that as a bad thing, right?

Let's try to close this
out with some conclusion.

You see that as a bad thing
with his control over this?

Like, do you, do you see his position
in leading WordPress as a bad thing?

Mark: Um,

Matt: This is me

Mark: pulling the pin out of the grenade.

Matt: I don't think so.

Mark: No, I don't, no, I don't.

Thanks.

I don't, I don't think so because I
don't really care what the rules are.

I keep saying it like that but I
don't, I don't care what the rules are.

This is a, this is a life thing for me.

I don't care what the rules are.

I need to know the rules
or the circumstance or the,

the guidelines or whatever.

I just feel like I've never really
fully known that, but now we do.

I feel like a lot of people
didn't know that truthfully.

And now it's a seismic shift.

Matt: And now

Mark: they realize that
Matt Mullenwee is the king.

Um, and that's actually fine when I say
fine, it's like, thank you for telling me

Matt: right

Mark: now with that information, I am
going to make my own decision of whether

I want to stay, how much I want to use the
platform, how I actually have to literally

re this is a lot of shit that I've seen,
like people have to literally refactor

their whole thought process on wordpress.

And again, I want to emphasize this.

I understand people have been here for
much longer than I have, like years and

years, multiple decades almost right.

Like they, Are going to like, I can
understand the turmoil that that brings

to somebody when you think it's been
like one way the whole time and now

either again intentionally or just by by
need or maybe the veil was pulled off.

I don't really think that that really is
the case, but like now it has to change

or it did change or the, the, the rules
of change, the guidelines, whatever.

And now it's something different.

So that's me.

That's me.

I don't, I don't actually.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

I don't, I wouldn't tell Matt Mullenweg,
it's not the type of person I am,

that you have to do something with
the platform that you poured all of

your time, energy, and money into.

I, I, that's not me.

I'm not going to tell
him how to do his thing.

What I am going to do though,
is I'm going to observe that,

and I'm going to be like, okay.

These are the new parameters
that I'm operating in.

How do I feel about that?

What am I going to talk about?

Because I'm free to have my own
thoughts and opinions on it, and

use the thing if I still want to.

So to answer your question more
succinctly, do I think it's a

bad thing that he has control?

Not inherently, no.

I think that it's, I'm glad that we
know it and I think now the question

becomes is do we agree with what he is
controlling and like what his thought

process is and how he's handling it.

I do think that with these new set of
parameters and with what has happened.

There are two things can be true at once.

Like he could want open source to continue
and say that and be and be like that and

also be ruining the thing that he has been
building like the community aspect of it.

I think those two things are true.

And to me, I'm looking at it going,
that just seems like a poor play

from somebody that wants their
thing to continue to be prosperous.

And as somebody, as a
user in the community.

I don't want to say I'm a thought leader
by any means, but like somebody that

makes some content around this shit,
it's like I can't just not say anything

about that because this is a strange
situation that we're in here where we

have a guy that wants to be a steward
of open source actively is, and I don't

want to go into the drama thing, but I'm
just trying to like pull it all together.

The open source thing really is
at the linchpin of it and it's

used as kind of like a, like
the reasoning for a lot of it.

But I still think that the actual
definition of the whole thing is kind

of like co opted in a way where We
just keep throwing more things to it.

At the end of the day, it means
that it's free to the public, right?

And you can see the code.

Does it mean anything else?

I, I don't really think so on the surface.

Because all the other shit that people
have been thinking about and attributing

to WordPress are actually on the brand
side, the business side, that a lot of

like WordPress Specific people I feel
like, they're in business, like they're

here and there, maybe they're employees,
maybe they have their own plugins, but

like this is big time fucking business.

Like these small problems like
ten years ago are massive now

because of how big this is.

You know what I mean?

Like anything like that, it's
just, it's just how it gets.

So, um, and it's just we, again, this
is so big that I don't think anybody's

really ever seen something like this.

The only competitor, like
you said, is like Linux.

So, and it's in a different
industry entirely.

So, um.

Yeah.

Uh, I don't know if that
answered anything, but that's,

that's, that's how it is.

I don't think he's bad.

It's just, it's, I'd have to continue
to see what, what, what evolves.

But those are my thoughts right now.

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I, I'm just not in the,
in the camp of, um, Yeah.

You know, I, again, if I, if I reflect
on why it's always been WordPress,

it's, it's for me, it's not because it's
because I felt like I had a say in it.

I just knew that this was a
piece of technology that I could

understand, look at, uh, unpack, break
apart, and know what's happening,

regardless if I did anything with it.

I just want to know, like,
how this thing operates.

Yes, it's under the GPL.

Yes, there's a community behind it.

There's all these, like,
good things for it.

But I like the idea.

Of being able to see what this thing
does, especially if it's gonna contain my

life's work, overemphasizing a little bit.

But if it's my blog post, my media,
my comments, my forum, like this

is my thing and I'm gonna be able
to move this thing around the web.

Don't like it over here,
I can move it over there.

Wanna change the way it looks,
I can change the way it looks.

Right.

And this is my thing that I kind of own.

Um, you know, so that's
why it's, it's always been.

Important to me to, to support it.

Never felt like I was making an impact,
you know, on the software until I got

my command K go to template parts button
put in, I really felt like every time

I still use it every day, every day.

But when I'm in it, I'm
like, I made this happen.

Um, or at least I was a small part of it.

And, um, you know, that, that is
important, uh, too, but I mean, I just

like supporting it because I think
it's, um, I think it's important.

I think where it.

Um, I think what we've seen now,
at least in my head, and I've been

talking to a lot of other content
management systems through CMS minute.

com, um, and talking to these guys
running their, their particular CMS,

they have some open source components.

They have free versions of it, but
at the end of the day, like they're

not free and GPL on except for ghost,
um, where, although I don't know if

ghost is GPL, but it is open source.

Um, but some of them are
like, look, we're, we're.

We love that idea.

We want to incorporate more, but we also
need to survive and we need to make money.

Total.

Totally get it.

100 percent right there for you, man.

Like, totally makes sense.

Does that mean I would use, like, would I
still choose your platform over WordPress?

Mm mm.

A little bit harder sell.

Um, but I think what all of
this does is it starts to open

up the idea of alternatives.

And I said this before.

I said this on the, on the Fork
WordPress with Kevin Geary.

If you give me a blogging platform
that is like WordPress, but slimmed

down, ultra fast, open source, I
think that's the play for anyone who's

thinking about forking WordPress.

Don't fork WordPress at its entirety and
then go through the same challenges that

we've had for 20 years, which is like, how
do you build a website with this thing?

Go back to the essence of it.

And build a project around blogging
and putting words on the internet.

That, I'd instantly go,
there's another one?

Okay.

I'll definitely play with this on my
blogging sites and stuff like that.

Mark: Well, we don't, that's,
that's a topic for another episode.

Cause, uh, we, uh, we, I definitely
don't, I got some thoughts on

that, that we're not going to
agree together there entirely.

But, the last thing I'll
say here is, What, words on

Matt: the internet are still viable?

Is that what you're going to say?

Mark: They're definitely still viable,
they're just not, They're, if they're

not, if they're not below other mediums,
they're, it's, it, it's decreasing fast.

So that's my, that's my
shorthand version of that.

But let me, let me, let me, one thing on
this is, and this is maybe another topic

that kind of revolves around that, but
this concept of, I, I don't have any data.

This is a hypothesis.

Just think about this.

It is my belief, my hypothesis, that.

The world, again, and the
general average person, is not

like you just explained there.

Like, the archetype that you just
painted yourself as, that wants

to know and values the open source
aspect of things, that like cares

about all that, I think is shrinking.

I'm not saying it's a good thing,
I just think it's happening.

And it's, it's purely, the
assumption is purely based off of

all of the social media that has
sprouted 10 years or so, right?

Where we're just handing our shit over,
our data over, into a locked black box and

we, we are, like, it's a give and take.

Like, you can, there's people that
are creating brands and actual, and

garnishing attention on these platforms.

But, at any time, they could pull the
switch and it could be gone, right?

But the problem is, and this is again
another topic for a different discussion,

is the level of distribution is like, the
distribution part is so, you told me this,

like, I mean, I'm not telling you anything
you don't know, but the distribution

is so valuable that people are willing
to do that and take those risks.

And honestly, in some cases, I can't
really fault them entirely for doing that.

I do think maybe you should still
have your own open source platform.

Obviously, we're, you know,
proof of that and everything.

But I'm just saying that, I worry,
genuinely kind of worry, and maybe this

is the con, the concept, is that I'm
literally being swayed in that direction

because I am starting to see all the
perils of open source from WordPress

but also you can kind of like, you
even just mentioned a little bit on

the other platforms they're not like
full, uh, you know, everything's free,

everything's open because they understand
that they still have to make money and

they have to protect some of their shit.

I Kind of also totally agree with that,
that if I put my blood, sweat, and

tears into building something, I also
want to kind of own it to a degree.

Maybe not everything, but like the main
shit that's going to make me money.

That just doesn't sound like
a good business decision to

give everything away for free.

So, I think people are seeing all of the
things that have came before them, the

CMS stuff that's came before them, the
open source pieces just in that realm.

And they're like, Hmm, maybe we're
not going to do it just like that.

And I feel like over time, it's
going to continue to go that route

where we just don't have, there
will still be open source stuff,

but it's not going to be like the
entirety of everything that you have.

And I don't even know,
where's WordPress gonna go?

We talk about that all the time.

Is one version, is 7.

0 or whatever?

You're just gonna be
like, oh, you know what?

Everything before, still open.

Moving forward, nah.

You know what I mean?

I don't know.

So