The WP Minute+

Matt: Derek Hanson,
welcome to the WP Minute.

Derek: Glad to be here.

Thanks for having me, Matt.

Matt: I've seen you pop up
on a lot of live streams.

we've chatted, only in live stream so far.

And of course our LinkedIn direct
messages, going back and forth to

set this, recording up your technical
account manager at automatic.

I want to talk about that.

what the day in the
life looks like for you.

You also have been creating a lot more
content lately at Derek Hanson dot blog.

I think you're going to start
getting maybe into YouTube, your

newsletter and blogging, where
we're going to unpack all of that.

I want to lead in with one of my
hot topics, which, I had, I think

I commented on one of your LinkedIn
posts or articles that I feel like,

there's a lot of automaticians as
of late who are creating content.

And part of my.

You know, broader view of, analyzing
automatic and in the industry is, Hey,

maybe there's like this initiative
internally at automatic that, that

folks were like, it'd be great if you
all were content marketers, because

I buttoned that up against, something
like, you know, Hey, there's hot topics.

Maybe we'll talk about it today.

Wix Squarespace, these juggernauts
in the ad in marketing space,

really pumping lots of money.

And my gut feeling was, well, maybe
the automaticians love the software so

much that they could be, in air quotes,
they could be the marketers by using

the product and publishing content
and leveraging WordPress as it is.

Long way of getting to, is
there an internal initiative for

automaticians to create content?

And if not, what's the deal?

There's so many of you doing it lately.

Derek: Yeah, this is a great question.

It there's no like official
internal initiative.

other than if you saw one of Matt's
recent blogs, maybe a few months back

about the cards that automaticians
get of be the host, help the hosts.

and, and then neutral and where I
sit firmly with my team as a TAM

with the special projects team,
we're in the help the host category,

where it's the idea of just making
WordPress better for everybody.

And some of that is just sharing
more what you do publicly.

And I think every automatician,
you know, there's lots of people

who are gifted writers and you
might find some of their content.

Content, around with, you
know, personal newsletters.

something that I think maybe
everybody's behind on is that YouTube

side of things, because creating
video content is a hard task.

as you all know, I'm sure, which is
why, you know, we'll get into this.

I'm slow to get into it because it's
time consuming and not everybody has.

I don't think there's an
affinity towards public facing

communication like that either.

as I shared with you privately, I have
a pretty decent background in that, from

previous jobs and my time working at
the university I used to be a part of.

So I think people.

You know, tend to follow the automatic
creed to just, you know, share what

you do openly, and, and work out in the
open and just give back to WordPress.

And so that's what I've taken on just
a little bit personally as like a side

quest, knowing that it's going to better
WordPress, and then just create a better

understanding of, of, of what we're doing.

Matt: Yeah.

Like, well, there's Mike from the
Jetpack team whom I've, spoken to a

lot, one on one and I know he is, you
know, doing the whole YouTube thing.

I mean, he's doing the YouTube
thing for, for Jetpack, but I

know he has his own, like, his own
blog and, like, entrepreneurship

initiatives that he's publishing
and broadcasting, which is cool.

And McCarthy, I think is doing
a fantastic, you know, unbiased

middle of the road meeting the
YouTubers and trying to, you know,

have us sort of all understand.

Where this whole thing is going.

It's, it's great to hear, because
obviously, and we don't have to get,

like, I don't want to get too deep into
the weeds on this, but I still think,

Automatic is the best steward for open
source WordPress, and, having a fleet of

automaticians, like, using the product,
I think is going to Make this whole

experience better It's a battleship
trying to turn or an aircraft carrier

trying to turn in a tight spot A lot of
folks want things to get better faster

Pressures from from competition and we'll
talk about that from your perspective

But I think it's great that that the
automaticians are using it and really,

you know publishing their own stuff
with it It's the best way to to learn.

It's how I learn with
gravity forms every day.

I'm trying something new and I'm
like, you know, this doesn't work

out for the average end user like me.

How can we make it better?

So I think it's a, it's a great thing.

What is a day in the life?

technical account manager, and what
products specifically you said, special

products or special teams, what products
specifically do you, do you work with?

Derek: Yeah.

So the automatic special projects
team, which I just, I dropped

you a link right before the chat.

So you could share that out.

you can see some of the work we do, but
we partner with, friends of automatic

and we, Build and launch websites.

we offer a concierge service, for
friends of automatic and we're,

our initiative really is to do
what you're saying is to use.

The software use WordPress.

we aim to use as many automatic products
as possible to contribute back in

lots of different ways, whether that's
creating custom bespoke themes, cool

new plugins or, features for the block
editor, or just really custom solutions

and the, the idea is that the day in
the life of what we're doing is we're

getting that experience, hands on
experience and passing that feedback.

Back into the different products at
automatic, even external third party

products, gravity forms is something
that, you know, we still have sites using

a lot because of how well developed and
longstanding and powerful it's been.

And that's, that's really
our aim and our initiative.

We spend a lot of time also in just
the Gutenberg, GitHub repository.

and, you know, there's quite a few of
our developers on our team that you'll

see listed, you know, in the contributors
to releases, based on the work we do.

So, as a TAN, the day in the life
is, interacting and interfacing

with the people that we work with.

so some of the sites in our, our, our
catalog, I was, fortunate to be a part

of, very proud of the work that we do.

I think we produce a great showcase
of WordPress, just out into the, into

the community to show what it can do.

Matt: How do you define
a friend of Automatic?

Derek: Friend of Automatic, a
lot of times is a friend of Matt.

So he's, sending, people, our direction
to, you know, get help with their,

their, their website, whether that's,
they're already on WordPress and they

need a facelift or they're coming
from other platforms, which is, you

know, usually a great case study to
see, what we can do, which, you know.

The data liberation project is something
that I think we're really keen to help

contribute to, to figure out how can
we make that seamless transition to and

from other platforms, from WordPress.

Matt: I have, I've often seen, as I'm
sure most folks watching the show,

have seen as well, like I've seen him
interact with, you know, random folks

on, on Twitter or X, you know, saying,
Hey, my, Shopify is, It's terrible or

it's too expensive or, you know, and
if it's sort of like a notable brand or

maybe somebody in his inner or third,
degree of circles, he might say something

like, hey, hop over to WordPress.

We'll help you.

I assume that's when you get the bat
signal up in the sky and then you swoop

in to say, I'll, I'll, I'll help now.

roughly if, if that's correct, how
do you, do you then, facilitate,

Hey, this is a wordpress.

com person, or maybe this is a VIP person
and you kind of help facilitate that.

Like do you analyze as you're like,
you know, that daily tasks, do you

help analyze that and make the,
the assessment for which product

pressable even, to choose a little bit.

Derek: Yeah.

A lot of our sites are on pressable
and launching more on wordpress.

com and there's, You know,
select few that go to VIP.

thankfully I am unburdened of maybe
a lot of those decisions, especially

like if something's going to go
to VIP, just in my role as a TAM.

but usually when we're spinning up
projects and I'm working with the

partner, I, I will see if, and have
a, A pretty good influence on if

something should be like wordpress.

com or on pressable and, some
projects we're working on right

now are coming to wordpress.

com to take full advantage of some of
those jetpack integrated features, like

newsletter, like you were mentioning,
Mike, is sharing a lot more of, and.

Yeah, like I said, it's, it's just helping
to understand really the needs of and

goals of the partner, you know, not as
much as like, Hey, let's make sure we're,

you know, benefiting our platforms.

It's, we're providing the best
experience with WordPress as we can

for, for each partner we work with.

Matt: Do you have a favorite?

I guess without revealing who the customer
is if you don't want to, but is there, was

there a favorite sort of, I don't know,
win from Matt doing something like that?

Like somebody you migrated from
Wix and you were like, Oh my God, I

can't believe they did this on Wix.

Or is there a favorite project
or conversion that you've been

a part of through this program?

Derek: Yeah, what really drew me to
applying for the, the role, was seeing

like the description of the job and,
and getting to build sites for people.

And specifically, I've had a chance
to work with a lot of nonprofits,

which is, which is awesome.

You know, a lot of my background
helped contribute to that,

within my previous roles.

And the, the ones I am most proud of
are actually featured on our site.

So you can share those and
people can go click on, on them.

And, one of the best ones
was, and the backlog.

org, which won a Webby award,
because of the work that we did,

and that was a Drupal migration.

And you want to talk about a hard, task.

It's trying to figure out how to
move from Drupal to WordPress.

And, you know, fortunately we have
such a group of talented people

to, to solve some of these things.

And so I was really excited about
that one and, you know, interfacing

and working with the partners is.

just such a pleasure.

I enjoy that side of the things a lot,
getting to chat with them and hear

their goals and help them accomplish,
you know, the mission of their

either individual or organization.

so, and the backlog is, is
one of my favorite ones.

a recent, a more recent one,
was really, really excited about

was interaction design, ixda.

org, because we really started to move
into the full site editing experience,

a lot more, we're, you know, that's
almost our default, but, you know, and

the backlog is a great classic theme.

Experience and interaction design is
a great block theme experience with a

lot of really cool features, including
a massive video library for all of

their past events, and conferences.

Matt: From your, from where you stand
and, observe the data liberation project.

I mean, you mentioned that man, imagine
trying to move from Drupal to WordPress.

No, I can't imagine.

you know, Yeah, I used to be, that's how
I got started in this whole web world

was really deep in Drupal way back in
the day, Drupal 4 into 6, and 6 is when

I actually had discovered WordPress.

But from your perspective, is it,
is it, is that why data liberation

seems a little bit slower?

And I want to try to unpack it, if you
can, if you have a perspective on it.

A lot of folks that I've been talking
to, a lot of newer folks coming into the

community, they don't really understand
Like how this whole thing kind of works

where here's a broad vision from Matt
and perhaps I don't even know Yeah,

I don't I don't claim to know the
answers, but here's this broad vision

from Matt while it's not a direct task
Or like, facilitated project, it's, it

is hopeful from his vision that we need
this data liberation thing, and then,

you know, please go out and build it.

And there's no deadline, timeline, no
project manager around it, not yet anyway,

but when that sort of broad vision is,
is put out, With high complexity, like

if you looked at Drupal and probably
even Wix and Squarespace, like how

do you get this data, you know, how
much data are we transferring over?

Is it just pages, posts, like what
other data do these CMSs hold?

Like, do you think it's that complexity
that, that data liberation is maybe, I'll

say struggling is the first word that
comes to my, my head, but slow to start.

Something else, like what's
your thoughts on like getting

the data liberation moving?

Derek: Yeah, I think it is the
complexity and maybe just the

interest in devoting the time to it.

so having been a part of, you know, quite
a few of these types of migrations and

even back when I was like doing this
on my own between different types of

CMSs, and not even WordPress, there's
So many nuances to unpack about each

platform to figure out how you need to
map the content into your new space.

And I think one thing that maybe is
a little challenging from a content

architecture side of things is a lot
of times when you're moving a site to a

new one is you're actually taking that
opportunity to revamp, not just the

design, but maybe the organization of it.

So maybe you have like a set of.

Pages that you'd prefer to
become custom post types.

Maybe you have a set of custom
post types that would fit better

as default posts with maybe just
different templates and formats.

And that I think presents such a unique
challenge because there's so much

planning involved on a per site basis
that it's not as simple as like click.

Move my site from this platform to
WordPress or move my WordPress, you know,

site to this other WordPress environment,
because I think there's so many changes

that are taking place from a content
perspective that really fits on just, like

I said, just such a case by case basis.

basis.

It's not really one to one.

And I think that's, that's the
biggest challenge is it takes so

much time to figure out for your
individual site, what the best process

is that it's not necessarily going
to overlap on the next, you know,

site that somebody wants to move.

I think that's one of
the biggest challenges.

Matt: Realizing that you can't
speak for, the whole company and,

and your, automatic colleagues.

What's the temperature in the room
for automatic when, when they sort

of, this is the way that I see it
and maybe you all see it differently.

I'm often very, you know, critical of
like decisions of Matt, but I, I am right

behind him with, his definition of, of,
of, you know, Open source WordPress, open

web, like, WordPress as the, publishing
platform first and foremost, at least

as of right now, like, there's a lot
of stuff, and then I am critical on

maybe some of the decision making, how
it impacts individuals in the space.

Having said all that, I don't really
See the work that all automaticians

do and, you know, rich and they are
obviously much more public and maybe

that's just part of their roles, but
I'm curious to understand like what

the temperature in the room is for for
you all, or maybe at least from your

perspective when you see the wordpress.

org community.

Automatic is just doing this.

Automatic is just this blanket statement.

Automatic is just doing that.

Automatic is making these
decisions just for them.

I don't buy that.

I don't even buy that Matt's doing
it for the benefit of wordpress.

com.

But what's the temperature in the room?

Do you feel?

Disassociated with the org community
because you are in automatic.

How do you all think
about that, if anything?

Like, do you regularly meet about that?

I would imagine there'd be one
psychologist dedicated to this.

At automatic.

Be like, look, don't listen
to this, don't listen to this.

But, what's your thoughts
on that temperature?

Derek: I guess I, And really just speak
to that personally, maybe that, you

know, automatic, was a job that I used
to maybe dream about one day when I

was early on in WordPress, but I just
really didn't know what I was doing

yet, but I was like, This looks like
it would be, you know, the best of the

best, you know, working on WordPress.

And I feel like, you know, like our team
specifically, I feel like I get to work

on an all star team of WordPress users.

And, the more I've been with Automatic,
The more I just see the same conversations

that you've noted and seen over the years.

And I think it's just like a real
misconception that, everything that's

trying to happen is maybe for the
benefit of automatic when really, I

think we're all after the same thing.

We're trying to benefit
and grow WordPress.

And.

I think you've done a really great
job of communicating that, to your

audience, which is why I've really
enjoyed, you know, watching your,

watching and listening to your shows.

so I, I think that maybe the temperature
of the room, like myself personally

is like, it's, it's hard to navigate
the negative sentiment a little bit.

I spend probably more
time in like The broader.

org community than maybe most
automaticians, like I said, because

it's, it's a tough space to interact
with on a daily or weekly basis.

because it's, you have to sort of like
have that, you know, multi persona,

I guess is one way to think about it.

And So I, I try to be really conscious
about, you know, jumping into

conversations to not, you know, be
defensive, but also be open and listening.

I think that's why Anne has done such a
tremendous job, which you were a part of

that last, YouTuber Uniting WordPress and
even back with the FSC Outreach Program.

I think

Sitting back and listening to the
people who use WordPress on a daily

basis is one of the things I try to do
on a more consistent basis, which is

why it's like, well, I'm having a hard
time jumping into creating the content

because I'm still trying to just be in
listening mode and hear, you know, what

people think and what the perspectives
are, because WordPress services.

Too many different users, which
is what makes things extremely

challenging, to know from a vision
standpoint, like what the best path is.

And I'm far removed from,
you know, what that is.

So I try to just stay sort of within
what I know and where I can contribute.

And.

I think that's, that's
the best that we can do.

And I feel like, you know, Automattic's
not the only organization like that.

I, you know, WP Engine and
10Up, I think do a fantastic

job of, you know, supporting
WordPress as the project itself.

And, it'd be, it'd be nice
to see maybe the perspective.

You know, of automatic to shift a little
bit in a more positive light, you know,

like some of these other, you know,
agencies, and hosts that are also, you

know, we're all after the same thing just
to make WordPress better for everybody.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, we don't have
to get into it, but I, I think

obviously the tricky thing is
just the, the brand of WordPress.

Is mixed, right?

So immediately, you know, it's, it's
going to be a very difficult, debate or

discussion, especially from, from, you
know, from the uninitiated that come into

the space or the newbies that come into
the space and they just, I mean, just as

you would, like if you knew nothing and
you were like, Oh, there's wait, these

guys are charging for WordPress, but
there's free WordPress over here and,

and they want me to make this better.

And, but they're making it better
over there and they're charging money.

Like the initial, like that super, like.

tip of the iceberg thing that people come
into the space that just, just don't know.

It's very easy to fall into that.

And hey, you know, it's the, that's the
muddy area of the branding of WordPress.

Um, let's talk about Derek, the creator.

what are your goals as a creator
to even like that word, a content

creator, you know, podcaster, blogger,
newsletter, writer, YouTuber, like

what do you label yourself if you do?

And, and what's the vision for the
content that you're putting out?

Derek: So I think the vision is,
I've always had an affinity to

be in like teaching mode and you
know, that was my previous pathway.

Like I'm going to be a professor and
teach communication and the, you know,

I had an opportunity to be a part
of building a multi site WordPress.

E portfolio initiative at the university.

So I like total, that's how I got
started in WordPress and I really

gravitated into that and I was
teaching WordPress to professors and

students, and, and other colleagues.

And I think that's, you know, what
I'm really looking to do is just bring

that sort of teaching experience.

And sharing, you know, how to do things.

But I think also my other
background is in rhetoric.

And, I like to look at strategy for
website projects and, you know, maybe not

even as much the technical side of things.

So I think the conversation around
what it means to have a website.

is probably something I feel like
I want to bring more into the

conversations and less of the like,
here's how you push buttons to do

things and, and recreate stuff, which
I think I want to do some of that.

I want to show like, okay, this
is how you accomplish a goal.

This is, you know, aspirational,
like here's an amazing site.

Let's see if we can redo it, rebuild it.

but then find ways to bring sort
of the experience of understanding.

The before you make a website part.

And I think that's maybe
a missing component.

I hear a lot of conversations about
like users and what that means.

And I think that's a whole nother
skillset that is not about like,

here's how you make a website.

It's here's how you think about
who you're making your website for.

which I think is.

part of the conversation that was
just had with Ann about who is

WordPress for and the philosophy.

And, you know, that became like
a point of, you know, major

conversation in that previous call.

And that's where I'm leaning towards
a little bit is trying to define

like what a user really is, because
they're, they're so vast and so

varied and the people that, you know,
we interact with on a daily basis.

And you do certainly as WordPress creators
or content creators, You know, your

audience is very similar people, people
building websites for other people and.

There's a whole host of people that
are entering, like you said, it's

confusing to get into WordPress for
some people, cause they don't know

the difference between wordpress.

com and, and wordpress.

org, but then also like, you know,
GoDaddy or Hostinger and, you know, all

the other platforms that are WordPress
that you might not actually know.

Our WordPress and there's even niches.

I was a part of a, a church website
building platform that was all WordPress,

but it was their white label take on it.

So it was a completely unique
and different experience.

So nobody really knew who was coming
in, like, because the goal is.

I need a website for my church, right?

Nobody's like, I want to
work, you know, use WordPress.

I, and I think maybe that's
where, you know, stepping back

and coming more from a high level.

I think that's what I'm
hoping to bring to people.

Matt: Do you, this was a debate
that, Mark Szymanski and I

had short, very short debate.

You know, when we analyze a lot of
the vocal folks that are, you know,

web professionals building websites
looking for, you know, an improved

site building experience, advanced
workflows, et cetera, et cetera.

you know, Kevin Geary comes to mind,
this very opinionated and, strong

approach on, you know, of course,
the evolution of WordPress, but

he's obviously a very skilled CSS.

Person has automatic CSS.

I say, Hey, this is great that
you're that passionate about it,

but we're banging on the wrong drum
because in my opinion, the essence

of WordPress is for publishing words.

As an individual on the web, yes, you
can build a website from it because

that's like when I say a website, I
mean, like a traditional, like homepage

pages, business, et cetera, not,
not that you couldn't do that as a

blogger, but traditionally publishing
words is a stream of, of blog posts.

Let's say, I think that the essence of
it is again, publishing those words.

And I think one of the
smarter things that.

Automatic could do or Matt
could do to preserve that and

maybe make it more visible.

Is it just a theory crafting here?

You let me know what your thoughts are, is
To be able to combat against social media,

disappearing content, content, that's,
you know, you're putting out content

into all these social platforms and
they're just monetizing it, throwing into

an algo, serving you ads, selling your
data, WordPress could just have a free.

I know they have the free domains like the
subdomains, but to flip it from a vanity

perspective, like you could get a free wp.

com slash Matt Medeiros.

And that could be my, that
could be my blog, right?

Shift that perspective on what publishing
is, and how folks can access it.

And even it's like a vanilla WordPress
install that you can't change the

theme and it's just for books.

Posting, like you log in and
it's just posting blog posts.

Just to get people to realize, oh
yeah, like this is my, this is like

logging into Twitter or logging
into Facebook and making a post.

But you own it, and then you get
to share that natural progression.

This is a long convoluted way of getting
to like, I think the essence of WordPress

is for publishing words that then makes
this natural evolution into building a

website as one progresses on the web with
either their identity or their career.

and that's why we have what
we have with WordPress.

True, false, something in between.

What are your thoughts?

Derek: Yeah, I, I think you align with
a vision that I've had for a while.

Just like, you know, personally
that, one thing that I've spent more

time looking at is Substack, because
No, a lot of, a lot of writers

outgrow Substack and then they're
ready for something like WordPress.

but there's that entry point,
which I think you just spoke to.

It's like, I just log in and
I write what I want and it's

published and it's out there.

And I think that's, that's something that.

If you've gone through
any of the wordpress.

com, you know, onboarding flows, I
think there's something to, you know,

work people into that direction.

And I think what you brought up is a
really interesting and unique use case.

but something I think that does align
with the vision of also data liberation.

There's a series right now of the
Fediverse files on YouTube for wordpress.

com.

And.

That concept of WordPress being your,
you know, your hub and the spoke going

out to other platforms, where, you know,
that's what I've been doing a lot with my

blog, I'm writing on my blog on WordPress
and it's auto publishing to LinkedIn.

so I get to own my content where I want
to own it, but I can have it go out

to the other, you know, areas and have
the conversations where you want to.

and I, so I think.

That concept is there and maybe it's just
a matter of re imagining it to have a more

curated experience and like quicker and
easier pathway to get into the publishing.

Which, which I wholeheartedly agree with,
like, you know, democratize publishing.

That's like the thing that I'm always
coming back to is like one of the best

missions that you can think of, especially
coming from an academic background

where there's so many gatekeepers to
publishing content that, you know,

if you want to be in a free thought.

You know, society and space, you
know, WordPress is one of the leading

ways to, to kind of combat that.

Matt: Yeah.

I don't know of any other way.

I mean, I know of all like the CMSs,
but I mean, just like from a pure, I

want to be a blogger and get words out.

you know, I don't know
anything better than WordPress.

Obviously, but I've been doing
it for whatever, nearly 20 years,

the, and the WP minute happily runs
the activity pub plugin, right?

So that, you know, that helps, that helps
publish content to, you know, Macedon.

But, I would love, I have comments
disabled, just get into the weeds, but

I have comments disabled just because
largely I didn't want to deal with

like spam comments and stuff like that.

yeah.

But the, you know, that, that, that
ability to have like, you know,

your content going out to all of
these different social platforms.

Now, of course, they
all have to support it.

But if you have like a network
like Macedon, folks could

just comment where they are.

And that comment would show up on my
blog post, you know, if, if, if they're

in an activity at pub enabled, space.

And I spent a lot of time,
In the open source podcasting

spaces as well with podcasting 2.

0 activity pub is huge there.

There's lots of apps
making strides, podcast.

We would love to have, activity
pub enabled, you know, for the

other division of automatic.

that would be really great.

But I want, you mentioned sub stack
and you said that a lot of folks

sort of outgrow that platform and
largely just as people listening,

like, why do they outgrow that stack?

Probably because they hit
some kind of limitation.

Like once your air quotes business
is moving with sub stack, you start

to realize like, Oh, I, I'd love
to actually control the experience.

Now I'd love to have a landing
page or these other product pages.

And I need to do my things that, that
to really accelerate this business.

And that's where those
platforms really cap out.

Yeah.

I have a, paid wordpress.

com account, thepodcastsetup.

com, where I analyze the podcast industry
just like I do with the WP Minute.

And I came from Ghost, and I originally
When I started this concept of the podcast

setup, because the originally I was
like, I'll just spin up a WordPress site.

It's like, no, no, I need to, I
want to bring, I personally want to

branch out and try something else.

Yeah.

And just like you said about
sub stack ghost is pretty great.

Another open source platform.

I was on their hosted version,
but man, you really hit that.

Like as much as we, Myself included really
criticize the, the UI and UX of Gutenberg

and WordPress and like navigation systems.

You, you can't even, that
doesn't even exist in ghost land.

Yeah.

Like when I'm, when I'm in ghost land,
I was like, Oh yeah, like I just want to

put a call to action button or there's
a call to action button on this theme.

Let me just go change it.

Wait, I don't have access to it.

Like there's no, there's no,
There's no site editor, you know,

as painful as it might be here.

I don't even get that on Ghost.

And now I'm, I'm reading, you know,
cracking open a code editor, running a

local version and committing it to, I
don't have, I don't have time for it.

I could figure it out.

I certainly don't have time for it.

And those were the limitations I really
started to bump up against with Ghost.

And then I went to wordpress.

com because then I was like,
I want to try the wordpress.

com experience.

So this is a whole long way of
getting to what's it like for, for

Derek, when you're publishing content
and you want features because what

I'm found as somebody who publishes
that newsletter for podcasting on.

com, it is just still vanilla WordPress
and that experience of a sub stack and

a ghost is what is missing for that
demographic of user for that type of user.

Like what I liked about
ghost is I could log in.

Hey, there's my newsletter.

Like, immediately, you just see it.

Newsletter subscribers
going up and to the right.

income coming in from, you know,
donations and membership plans.

Like, the experience is just in your face.

You're a writer, a newsletter, publisher.

And this is the experience.

WordPress is is here's the
WordPress dashboard, find the stuff.

And I'm like, and, and, and also
sign up for this free domain.

I don't need a free domain.

I have a domain already.

Let's get that out of there.

But where's that experience.

So how, how do you relay those same
kind of pain points, if at all?

Derek: I mean, I think you're
speaking to just the WordPress

admin experience, right?

Which is just a, a, a big conversation
and has been for a long time.

And, but it seems to really
be picking up more steam.

And I think I, I take the approach,
just every other WordPress user

does, which you demonstrated.

You submitted a GitHub issue to
Gutenberg and Brian courts picked it up,

submitted a PR, it got into a release.

And I did the same thing
just this past week.

I, I want to be able to upload a
featured image to categories and tags.

And I'm like, I searched
around the Gutenberg repo.

I didn't see anything.

no conversations on like, I'm
going to create an issue with this

vision and let the community, you
know, figure it out from there.

and, and I think that's, you
know, typically what I try to do.

you know, maybe there's like the
insider side of things where.

having the benefit of being
within automatic and then talking

to the product teams, you know,
like Jetpack and WordPress.

com who are building
the newsletter features.

I, you know, that's, that's where we'll
get laid maybe a little bit more like, you

know, into the like insider side of things
that I don't want to go into those at all,

but, I give feedback and because we're
using it just in the same way you are.

So it's not necessarily a guarantee
that anything's going to be picked up.

but I think what you're speaking to,
is what over time has been addressed

by the newsletter sort of as a product
for jetpack and, And wordpress.

com, with the release of the letter
theme and then some of the new features

that are, you know, showing up in
there for like, you know, the pop up

subscribe modal, and the paywall block.

So I think, I think it's all trending in
the direction that you're, you're asking.

but the admin experience is a totally
different thing to unlock, right?

Because you have to be
able to fit so much.

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I know it, I know we're
moving towards new admin experience,

which I've showcased on the channel
before about like posts and pages.

Yeah.

And it's going to escape me right
now, but I, I thought there was a

whole initiative to make the admin
experience a lot more modular, unless

that was more pie in the sky, but
I, you know, I don't, I don't know.

And, and the admin experience is
something that I thought would have

been tackled by this point, like 2024,
like when we were complaining about

it in 2018, I was like, well, by 2025
or four, we'll have something new.

Like we should be there, you know,
here we are still not there because I

think that's where you really get to
unlock those onboarding experiences.

that a lot of folks complain about,
you know, or, or that are sorely

needed because then you can onboard.

I'm an e commerce store, I'm a
blogger, I'm a newsletter publisher,

and I just want to get to that.

And I only want to see that, right?

And I think that that's how you can,
you can win against the social media

game to a degree if, if, if it was
just super slimmed down and you say,

Hey man, you own this con, like this
is your bucket of stuff on the web.

Right?

You have your bucket of stuff
over on TikTok, but it goes away.

and you don't, you can't
do anything with it.

But you have your bucket of stuff over
here, under your own domain or wp.

com slash whatever, and, and you own it.

And, you know, that I think helps,
you know, trend that whole thing.

You know, owning content and then
leveling up your website in the future.

I don't know.

I think

Derek: that's the most challenging
part of just like WordPress from

a philosophy standpoint, right?

I think Aaron was really alluding
to that on the call that we all

had with Anne is that what is the.

The version of WordPress that
is the foundation that other

people can innovate on top of.

Right.

And I think that's, that's the tension
is how to, how does WordPress allow

for innovation and for people to create
experiences and, and benefit from them,

in a really positive and meaningful way.

I think, you know, Mike McAllister with
Oli pro, and that You know, curated

onboarding experience that he's built
into that theme is, is incredible.

And I think if you know, WordPress,
you know, takes that on, then

you lose that type of innovation,
where people can create, you know,

all kinds of unique experiences.

You know, like you said, like, you
know, I podcast, you know, like,

you know, there might be a totally
different version of WordPress.

that a host might want to bring, you
know, to the table to offer out to

a real, you know, interesting niche.

so I, I think that's where I try to
like step back and look at WordPress

from, you know, my outsider perspective
is how, you know, how do you balance

bringing things into core and allowing
for innovation or for people to grow?

You know, their own business
and provide services to others

Matt: on your recent blog post
at Derek Hanson dot blog, recent

notes on what I'm working on.

You said you hint at there's a, a facelift
coming, and that you'll break it down.

What, what, give us a hint.

Like, what are you, are you
choosing a new theme or are

you, or can you talk about it?

Like, what are you, what are
the hints that you got going on?

Derek: One of, one of my longer
posts on my blog and like earlier

ones is me actually building
the current theme, which was.

Trying to rebuild a default theme, 2017.

And this was actually early on.

I think it was even
before create block theme.

It was just like the early
on days of the site editor.

And I'm like, I had a, I had a real
kind of nostalgic feeling of that theme.

Cause when I was doing it.

Teaching it to students.

It was the default theme at the time.

So every new WordPress install students
were using 2017 and I was teaching how

to use it and I was like, I want to
learn the site editor in its early days.

I'm going to rebuild the theme.

So the facelift is I
want to rebuild the site.

And I want to take people on that journey
in a very similar way that I did, with

that post about rebuilding it, but,
you know, make it more video centric.

so, well, I don't have a great vision
for the total outcome yet, other than

I'm very much inspired by, again,
you know, my history and visual

rhetoric, Edward Tufte, and Tufte CSS.

Very clean, minimal, find a way to bring
a new, bring a facelift to the site,

but take people on, on the journey.

I

Matt: promise.

No, I promised, you know, hot seat
questions, but I do have a hot

seat question as we wrap up here.

I, and I just saw this comment, come
through on my channel from a viewer

and they asked, should I, and it was
on my 20, Talking about the 2025 theme

upcoming and they said, is there any
reason why I should use this theme over?

Maybe I think he posted like cadence or
whatever like other pro themes or whatever

And this is something that I've always
been challenged with and I'm hoping for

your thoughts on this is we give up on
these default Themes, I think too quickly

for WordPress Where you know, there's all
these feet like a new theme comes and then

you know WordPress is constantly iterating
and evolving Gutenberg's getting better

So you start to see like, oh you know,
new theme comes out six months later.

There's like this cool new feature
that actually, Oh yeah, this looks

great with this default theme.

And then we only have like a
short few months after that.

And there's already this new
theme coming out, you know?

And it's just like it, that I
think is a challenging aspect of

WordPress to get people on board
because there's, there's, there's no

stability in that in my opinion, right?

Because you launch a site, you
get committed to this site.

And then suddenly you're like,
wait, WordPress is rolling.

Hey, cause a lot of people
think this is a new version.

Like they think that.

Oh, like there's a new
version of WordPress.

It's this theme.

Should I be using this?

And I think that there
should be a core theme.

This is the question.

I think there should be a core
theme that is just evolved.

and I, I understand they want to, they
want to, they want to flex the muscle of

design and, and, and flexibility, but,
I think there should be like this core

theme and then you can adopt these yearly
themes or these annual themes if you want.

So that's the question,
what are your thoughts?

Do you, do we keep these default
themes around a little bit longer?

Do you have a perspective on that?

Derek: Yeah, you know, one of
the past, state of the words, I

remember, and I don't know if you
recall this, Matt saying like, maybe

there will only be one theme, right?

You know, because of the site editor,
you can make any theme you want, really.

Like that's, you know, that's the
direction that, you know, Gutenberg

and the site editor are heading.

And I've just thinking about, been
thinking about this personally over the,

you know, last, you know, year or two.

Is what is the value offered by themes
in general in the future going forward?

And I think your video I was
just watching about patterns.

I think that's it.

I think, I think patterns and designs
are the new thing to offer through themes

because really like themes are going to
be working a lot in the same way, but

there's going to be some nuances to.

You know, to like, you know, the, the
core code of the theme, like theme dot

Jason, that maybe, you know, you can't
do on the site editor yet, you know,

such as, you know, different hover
styles or block styles or group styles.

So I think there's going to be a, just
from my perspective on just themes in

general, not just the, the default theme,
is that bringing new patterns and new

ways to use the site through design.

Is probably the, the future of WordPress
themes and have, you know, maybe,

maybe in the future, each new iteration
of the default theme is just going

to shift in how it's communicated.

Right.

because I, you're right.

Like, you know, there's so many
past versions of default themes

that you might still really enjoy
and you like the design of it.

so.

And like we talked about earlier,
it's hard to change a site, right.

To pick a new design and, and
go with something different.

Matt: Yeah, for sure.

Derek Hanson.

He's a technical account manager at
automatic and he's creating his own

content at Derek Hanson dot blog.

Derek, thanks for hanging out today.

Derek: Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

Appreciate it, Matt.