Get Better At Email Marketing in 2025
Download MP3Jason Resnick, my brother from another mother except for the wrong NFL team. Welcome back to the WP Minute.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me, Matt. And it's the right team. Let's face it.
Speaker 1:I've never I've never wanted to join the Bills Mafia, but I did this weekend. And my god. They put a little a little bruising on your your, undefeated season.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But you know what? That's fine for me because one, they should have, like, three losses anyway.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Two, who wants that undefeated thing over their their head the whole season anyway? Yeah. And three, they're gonna have to play the Bills in the playoffs anyway. So I'd rather have them lose the regular season or win the playoff one. So I'm good with it.
Speaker 1:The team that you secretly root for, which are the New York Giants, Giants, they beat the Patriots when the Patriots had an undefeated season. So, yeah, I I I I'm right there with you. That that undefeated number can really be a cloud above your head.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's been a while. It's probably been since you've been on the podcast. Maybe a year, year and a half, maybe two. I I can't remember.
Speaker 1:Time is elusive. What are you up to these days?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Probably the same thing. Doing email marketing, nurture kit, nurturekit.co, really just focused in on helping online businesses sell their things, whether that's subscriptions, memberships, digital products, coaching. So it's a fun time, to be honest, because, like, this year has been a little bit of a algorithm change as the social media folks kinda call it with email. So it's been a little fun and a lot of headaches.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:That's actually something I wanted to talk about. You know, we every year goes by, and and this is just like podcasting. You know? And and maybe the only one that you know, it was always like email podcasting blogging were, like, the three mainstays where you're like, you you're still not doing this thing. Like, you're still not doing this.
Speaker 1:Blogging taking a bit of a hit, I'd say, from, the the the swarm of AI generated content. But I think people are still leaning more into to social, and they're like, man, I don't even have time to do social, let alone blog. So I think that one might be taking a hit. But but email, and podcasting, I think, are still holding strong. And and maybe even email more than ever because of social media.
Speaker 1:Like, we're seeing like this now, this, blue sky is starting to, you know, really pop off and Twitter, sky, and all this other stuff. It's like, yet another social media channel. You know, email is still that direct. At least that's the way that I perceive it. Is it still direct?
Speaker 1:And and do you find your customers saying, I'm I'm weighing between social and email. Is that a thing?
Speaker 2:I think that's always a thing. But the the the nuance with email, one, it is the only channel that you sort of have control over to hit most of your audience. This year was a little different because Google and Yahoo teamed up, and they kind of pulled some levers on the email servers that throughout the web. So, basically, you had to do you have to jump through a little bit more hoops these days with email authentication, kinda like basically enforcing the best practices that you should have done with email marketing, but a lot of people didn't. So some ESPs had to catch up.
Speaker 2:Some are still catching up. They kinda put enforced some, I don't I wanna don't wanna say rules, but, like, you know, with SEO, there's, like, factors. So they put some factors in place, like one click on subscribes and some things to basically combat spam. I mean, it's all for good. It's just
Speaker 1:You're talking specifically about what Gmail and Yahoo did to to team up?
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. Yep. And they did that, you know, back in February, which we knew coming anyway was coming, like, even a year prior to. But, you know, like everybody, they just wait till the last minute for things, and then they send an email, and they got nobody opening it.
Speaker 2:They're like, what happened? You know? Right. But they've kinda tweaked it over the year anyway. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And then Apple's landing big time probably in the next I mean, we're recording this right now just before Black Friday and Thanksgiving. So there are couple weeks. I mean, I've heard already people getting it rolled out publicly that mail app is getting tabs. And so that accounts that client alone accounts for 55% of the all of the opens in email. So people are gonna have, you know, just like the Gmail promotions tab, now you're gonna have one in iOS mail app.
Speaker 2:So, you know, people are you gotta kinda engage your list. It's not a broadcast. It can't be a fire hose anymore. You really have to
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Use email as a two way communication in order for it to work for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, the I wanna unpack the just the the Gmail and the Yahoo stuff a little bit because I saw the stuff with Gmail. I didn't realize Yahoo was in on it. And was this like the technical stuff, like setting up your DNS records and having all those, records, you know, set up? What what and that's what?
Speaker 1:Just to simplify it. That's just saying, hey. When I send this email, it's truly me?
Speaker 2:Yes. Pretty much. It's basically I mean, the DNS records kinda look at it like a couple of things. It's like the key to my house, I have it. And then there's also the lock on the door, which has the key.
Speaker 2:Right? Knows which keys belong into the door. And then there's just that third layer of, like, just a bouncer at the door to be like, hey. Are you who you are, you say? You know?
Speaker 1:So Only in New York would you have a bouncer at your own home. Oh, just sit there.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's early still. So Yeah. You know, it's like, yeah. I mean, there from a technical perspective, it's just all under the umbrella of email authentication. That that was the big thing that, like, a lot of ESPs had to catch up with.
Speaker 2:Right? Because they were, you know, worried about phishing, like me sending email on your behalf. You know, that kind of what's the email authentication blocks. The other layers are a little less, I guess, important. They're more factors.
Speaker 2:They're not so much hardline rules like one click unsubscribe. So every email you send, the person has to be able to click on a link and automatically unsubscribe. Not go to another page, not select a bunch of check boxes, and then hit unsubscribe. And I've seen people being dinged for that. So, you know
Speaker 1:Now is that on the on the person, or is that on, like, the e s like, the ESPs on
Speaker 2:the ESP.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, you know, like, I mean, ultimately, it falls on you if it's your list. I mean, you gotta be aware of these things. But yeah. I mean, if you're on a platform that doesn't do the one click unsubscribes, can't be surprised if you start seeing deliverability problems because Yahoo and Gmail are gonna put you into a junk folder somewhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I always you know, we saw I I don't even remember when. It's it's probably been, like, eight years. I don't even know what the timeline is. But when, Gmail started rolling out, like, the, their own sort of, like, automated tab system, whatever it's called, you know, priority.
Speaker 1:It's not even not priority one. It's what's what is it like? It looks at newsletters, promotion ones, like, and it kinda, like, categorized. That's when I really thought that we'd see more of that coming from from Gmail. Is that still a a factor, or is that not as, powerful as I thought it was gonna be?
Speaker 2:No. It's definitely a factor. Yeah. Yeah. Even myself.
Speaker 2:So I've I'd you know, Cobblish Children has no shoes kinda deal. Towards the end of last year, I noticed, you know, my engagement. I wanna say engagement. Right? So, like Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Replies, conversions. So
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You know, if I was running a sale or something like that, those were were not what they used to be on my own list. And even I had friends who were like, hey. I'm you're landing in promotions even though, you know, I know you, and I whitelist you, and you're in my contacts. Like and I kinda just ignored it, to be honest, for
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:For the worse. Yeah. And then I'd you know, over December, January, I kind of it flows like, let me pay attention to this. What what's the problem with my own email account? And I I had to dig in, dig my heels in, and and fix it.
Speaker 2:Right? And I had to fix it. Learned a lot that I didn't know, but I was like, if Gmail and Yahoo are gonna start cracking down, I gotta fix my own issue first, the things that I have control. And, yeah, I was landing in a promotions tab. I spent the better part of a month, maybe even five weeks just fighting the promotions tab in Gmail.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I was like Yeah. And now iOS is gonna you know, Mail in iOS is gonna have the same tab. So Apple has actually said that they will if you have like, they're gonna have markers, I guess. They're like, if you send it from Kit, if you send it from Mailchimp, if send it from ActiveCampaign, we're gonna throw you right in the promotion's tab.
Speaker 2:So you might not have as much say. So you're gonna really have to try to figure out ways to get your list to reply to you and move you to the inbox and all those other kind of things so that you your emails are seen. You know? Yeah. That's
Speaker 1:I I remember a time where you would you know, you'd have somebody sign up to your newsletter, and, you'd have to redirect them to, an information page that said, hey. If you see yourself going into, like, my promote the promotions tab, click a button and do that. Is that something that people still do? Is that, like, common practice to to whitelist your own emails?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's coming back because of this. It kinda went away for a while. You know, like, with a couple of the things that I've been doing and having clients do, and even from my own list, did and saw drastic improvement, is, like, with lead magnets. You send the the autoresponder.
Speaker 2:You do the thing that you mentioned. Hey. If you find me in that autorespond email, if you happen to find me outside of your inbox and in the promotions tab, drag it over, and I had a a little animated GIF of the thing happening and all that. And then following it up a few hours later, I had found that four hours is kind of the sweet spot. If they don't click the link in the first one, send them another email, and then ask for the reply.
Speaker 2:And you can kind of incentivize that. Like, I I incentivize it with, you know, a play on, like, hey, I wouldn't be good at my job with email automation if I didn't do this. And I know you didn't download it because you didn't click on it. I'm sending you this email. If you hit reply, I will send you a secret video on deliverability.
Speaker 2:And that works. And that carries through just that initial handshake as soon as somebody comes onto your list. Is so, so important because Yeah. Gmail actually learns the behavior of your inbox. So what it puts in my promotions tab may not be what it puts in your promotions tab.
Speaker 2:Right. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and and Apple isn't Apple's pretty aggressive because, again, in the podcasting world, when Apple released, I'm gonna forget the name of their technology, but, basically, it's like everyone has a, like, a mini VPN in on their phone. Right? So you or or through the Apple services. So you would access, like, emails.
Speaker 1:You can now just click a button and say, don't give my don't give my my actual email. Give them this Mhmm. This sort of, like, VPN like email, this this masks email that is just a random email that's covered by Apple, and then it just sends to your to your inbox. Has that had an impact? Yes.
Speaker 1:I look at my list. I don't see anyone using that, actually, when I look at my list.
Speaker 2:So they might not be using those, and I I call them burner email addresses. Right? It's like a burner cell phone you see in the movies. Right? You don't see that.
Speaker 2:However, as a part of that, there's mail protection. And what that does is it has Apple actually open the email, click on the links to make sure that it's a good and not phishing email, and then passes it into your inbox. So if you and an easy way to see this, and some ESPs can detect that, like, so you know, like, hey, Jason is an iOS user using mail protection. You can also see it in the ones that don't. But if you send out an email and you just refresh as soon as it sends, you'll see a percentage of clicks and percentage of opens.
Speaker 2:It's a good bet that those are software because nobody's sitting there refreshing their inbox waiting for your email. Right?
Speaker 1:So Right.
Speaker 2:I you know, I know on my list, I've got about almost 4% open rates, and I've kinda tagged all of those people as mail protection, iOS bot. Right? Because for an email marketer perspective, somebody's doing clicks, and then I trigger off campaigns based on those clicks, I wanna make sure that it's a human. Like, I I don't want false clicks. So I try to block people that I think might be using that just so that I don't trigger off more email that maybe they're not even looking at.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I wanna talk about some of these strategies, but what you're saying right now is giving me a lot of anxiety. Right? Like, do I have to do this now? Like, now I have to run, like, a formula against my list and find figure out who's doing you know, potentially doing the email protection.
Speaker 1:It was just really just automated bot, and nobody's actually looking at it anyway. I I feel like these are the things that these platforms should be doing, the ESPs, the kits, the the Mailchimp of the world to make my life easier. Do they help, or is this something that you're like, you know, this is what I tell my clients to do all the time?
Speaker 2:So some platforms do. Like Klaviyo, they identify iOS devices. Kit doesn't. Think ActiveCampaign does. So, I mean, the ESPs do it.
Speaker 2:So if you're using an ESP that, you know, take a look, ask. You know? Yeah. Yeah. But, again, it doesn't always it's not always accurate.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:They're Sure.
Speaker 2:Basically, like, in the dev world, all they're really checking is the agent of the client that is being used. And so, you know, I say I don't say that, you know, you have to do these things. You just have to be aware of them so that when you actually do strategies that lean more on the clicks and things of that nature, then you have to think about, like, okay, there could be a bunch of people that are using software that scan emails. And it's not just, you know, talking a lot about Apple and and stuff and Gmail, but, like, hay.com. That's a privacy focused platform.
Speaker 2:They don't track clicks. They don't track opens. They don't send those back to us. I mean, Thunderbird, that's a big privacy focused thing for, you know, a decade and a half. So, I mean, there's other clients.
Speaker 2:I mean, Norton antivirus, if you just, you know, Outlook and use Norton, all that kind of stuff. So you just have to be aware of it. It's not something that you have to you know, I'm more acutely aware of it because of what I do, but Sure. You know, for people that are sending their weekly newsletters, you just have to know that this is out there. You don't have to really take too much action until you start to think that something's going on, or you're gonna use a behavior strategy based on a click.
Speaker 1:Seems like just yesterday, you would land on, you know, any anyone who's doing, like, Internet marketing. Somebody's blog, somebody's landing page, somebody's, you know, lead lead magnet thing, and you'd always see, like, 20,000 other folks just like you on this email list. You know? And and when you saw that a decade ago, you're like, god. Damn, man.
Speaker 1:Man, there's a lot of people out here. Like, so this this person is popular. And I think we've sort of fast forward a decade and, not only has, like, more competition come into the space in every single sector, not just, you know, Internet marketing. Right? It's a big that's a big pool anyway.
Speaker 1:But the like, I don't see that anymore. Like, I don't see anyone really touting, like, these big email lists anymore. But, I'm always curious is, like, is it just because there's more competition, less people are signing up because, man, I did that. I I don't need to do it again. You know?
Speaker 1:And people's attention, really. Right? It's like part of the industry is protecting people from spam. The other part of the industry is like, man, I'm I'm so sick of it. I'm not doing it anymore.
Speaker 1:And, basically, the question that I'm getting to is we're really starting to see, at least in my opinion, you can correct me, smaller audiences. Right? Whether we like it or not. Like, we all used to wanna have a 100,000 people on the email list. I feel like we're trending towards smaller audiences, and now this is what you have to work with.
Speaker 1:Fair assessment, or or how do you see, like people when come to you and go, just wanna grow my list, and you're like, that's not it, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, it's a fair point. I think depending on the business, you know, you know, I work with clients that have had, you know, upwards of a million subscribers on their list. I've had you know, I say this all the time. Like, I had a client couple years ago, 700,000 people on their list, they couldn't crack 5 figures on a launch.
Speaker 2:Wow. How's it work? They were basically just broadcasting out. They were just numbers game kind of thing. Yet, I have clients that are of four figures on their list, and every time they launch, they launch into six figures.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? So it depends really on the engagement. And I think that that's really what it what we're all getting at. Right? Like, from a user perspective, we're all blasted with a whole lot of information.
Speaker 2:What I think that the inbox has become is more of a private thing for us, the users, that were like, hey. I'm not gonna sign up. I don't need 27 emails hitting me every single morning. It's just too much. I don't have time for that.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna unsubscribe from a bunch of things. So from a user perspective, I think people are a little bit more guarded towards the inbox. Especially in, like, tech savvy spaces, people are like, you know, I don't need another 10% off coupon. I'll get it when I buy it. And, like, I'll
Speaker 1:just Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sign up to it. But less techy, you know, like my sister, my parents, like, even them, they're like, I get too many emails. You know? And they're like so they're not even getting they're not even signing up. Those type of industries, I think, are going more towards the social aspect.
Speaker 2:They're like, hey. I'm just gonna go follow somebody on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or wherever it is, and they're giving out all of their stuff there. So why do I have to sign up for something and get bugged about it? So Yeah. You know, for me, it's like, it's all about the engagement, I think.
Speaker 2:And, you know, that's why I was saying before, even with the rules, like, gotta get your people to reply. You gotta get you know, it's gotta can't be just broadcast, broadcast, broadcast. You gotta ask questions. You have to understand who they are, what they want. I mean, people aren't signing up to an email list because they need another friend.
Speaker 2:They're signing up because they have a problem. They or they have a challenge or a struggle or they want some information or something like that. So best engage that right away. And the faster you do it, you could convert faster. You could sell them something faster.
Speaker 1:Know, I've always hung my hat on not doing anything, like, super, you know, scammy or over the top and but you also to a detriment. Right? Like, I don't have like, I know it's good to have a lead magnet. I mean, phrase lead magnet makes me go down a whole bunch of different paths of, like, know, Internet marketers of twenty years ago. But it's it is something that I think a lot of folks should have, and it's something I've always avoided.
Speaker 1:Right? I've always looked at it like, you know, I'm just gonna put my content out there, and if people like it, they're gonna subscribe. And it just means that everything is just taking freaking forever, right, to, like, grow a list and to, like, grow a following. Again, I go back to podcasting, because I think there's a lot of podcasters out there who just expect to ship an audio first podcast and be like, the audience is gonna come. Well, I hate to tell you, but in the podcast world, that is the last thing that's ever going to happen because there is no central point of of algorithm, of search, yada yada yada.
Speaker 1:That's why I actually like it because it isn't, diluted or tainted by some kind of, like, corporate algorithm. Having said that, I always recommend folks in the podcasting world. It's like, you gotta be there has to be a multipronged approach here. You can't just do the podcast. You gotta do the newsletter.
Speaker 1:And even that's not gonna be blowing up because your podcast isn't blowing up. You you gotta funnel people into, let's say, community, some kind of community thing where you can interact with these people, and that number goes less and less. So if you have, let's say, a thousand downloads for your podcast, you get a 100 people on an email list, and then you get 10 people in your community. Right? Like, I see this, like, funnel into, like, the people who really care.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:In your world of consulting with folks, do you do a a multipronged focus, or are you like, nah, man. I just focus on the email stuff. How do you sort of, like, have accessory communication channels for folks with with email? How do you recommend it?
Speaker 2:I mean, I I stick and stick with email helping my clients, but usually my clients have some other channel of growth. Email is more of the kind of conversion channel, if you will. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So Still the best conversion channel, you think?
Speaker 2:Yes. 100%. Yeah. I mean, look. Next week or two weeks, whatever, it's gonna show that.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, it's funny. I only wanna do Facebook ads. I only wanna do, you know, TikTok, and then Black Friday comes. I wanna write up my email campaign.
Speaker 2:Like, I thought those other things were working for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I've worked with clients that have had Twitter as their main channel. I've had clients that have Facebook ads as their main channel. They don't do any social. It's just growing through Facebook ads, you know, Google ads, YouTube. You know?
Speaker 2:So the growth channel, I think you need. You have there has to be the awareness. Now I like an email to podcasting. Right? Like, there isn't like, you get people subscribing on the podcast, the apps, and then anytime there's a podcast, mute one dropping, that shows up.
Speaker 2:You don't have to fight an algorithm. It's very much similar to email. Like, I get a notification that I have a new email. Right? Similar thing.
Speaker 2:But even just, you know, throughout the course of my career and being, you know, an old time podcast host myself, the relationships that you build from podcasting with your listeners are very similar to that of what you build with your email subscribers too. Because the email subscribers like, I I kinda know who my, you know, inner circle of email subscribers are. They buy things. They reply to things. They do those things.
Speaker 2:Right? Same thing when I was a podcast host. It was like people like, hey. That was a great podcast. I'm like, oh, totally forgot that, you know, you were there.
Speaker 2:You know? Like, I didn't know I might have been talking into the void. You know? Who knows? Right?
Speaker 2:Like but the same people keep rising to the top. And I think that pairing the two and so what's interesting is I'm actually doing tests now, so I didn't I wasn't gonna share this, but it it's relevant. To build the trust factor, podcasting, I think, is the most it my I have a theory that podcasting was the most trusted channel to build on. Right? So I went down this study, like, science.
Speaker 2:I was like, is there, like, some science behind being trustworthy? Like or is this just some mysterious human thing? Right?
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But there's actually a lot of data around trustworthiness, and somebody came up with even, like, a formula. And what was interesting about the formula is is that fact there is actually on the person that's trying to you know, like, your audience trusts you, but it has it's actually on me more than you. And one of the things in one of the studies that I read was that audio is actually more of a trust factor than video, and only because of the physical distance of really the perception of that individual. So if you're listening to just this audio, I mean, it's right in your head, like the voices you hear right in your head. But on YouTube, there's still physical distance between your eyes and whatever you're looking at.
Speaker 2:Right? And so the science behind it says that audio is more trustworthy than video, text, so on and so forth, which was really interesting to me. So now I'm like, okay. So how do I use that information in email? Well, I what I'm testing now, I'm actually writing a new welcome sequence to split test this with my my own list is basically, instead of classifying it as a podcast, I'm just ripping out audio messages throughout each one of the welcome emails, which is basically just me riffing off of the email that they already got.
Speaker 2:So now they can hear me or read or both. And I'm just doing it that way almost like a voice mail, like, hey, click here. I left this audio message for you. Right? That kind of deal.
Speaker 2:Just to get people engaged with the email, and I wanna see if those people are more engaged further down in the middle of the funnel and obviously the bottom of the funnel. I wanna see if those people convert more later. Just be from a trustworthy factor. And it's interesting because, like, you know, like I said, I think podcasting I mean, if anything, this election taught us is that podcasting is now booming. Right?
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's not gonna go anywhere, but I think that, you know, I think it's a tool, a channel. I think that people more people need to explore way more than some of these social media sites. Like, I mean, I just went to Blue Sky too, and, like, it's just, like, great. Another one? Like,
Speaker 1:another one? Just another one. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's just another one.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And, you know, I I love what you said about the podcasting stuff. I love that sort of, like, audio note thing, and and maybe that'll be something that kick starts me, which is funny because the last time I had you on, you were talking about, like, automation and sequences. I'm like, oh, Jason's absolutely right. I'm gonna do that, and then and then I never did it.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll talk. I wanna I do wanna talk about that in a moment. I I I wanna talk about this, you know, this is how, you know, like, we you and I just reconnected again because I was I always come to you about, like, my email woes and, yeah, I finally switched from Mailchimp to ConvertKit. Why? Just because I wanted something else.
Speaker 1:Right? I'm just like, I Okay. You know, I just I didn't wanna actually, like, this whole, like, WordPress debacle, not that I wanna get into that in this episode, but it what it really had me thinking is, okay. Who am I getting my software from? I wanna make sure I know who I'm getting my software from at at the minimum.
Speaker 1:And, I don't want my software from Intuit. No. Thank you. But I I will I I will support Nathan Barry at at Kit, and and that's largely the reason why and is to play something new. Anyway, my point is in the podcasting world, I love that you found that study about trust in audio because the air quotes podcast industry is shoving everyone into video these days.
Speaker 1:And why are they doing that? Well, the answer is simple. It's because, YouTube has an ad network. And for decades now, podcasters have wondered how the hell do I make money with my audio. There's no ads.
Speaker 1:There's no one platform. Spotify tried for a few years. They couldn't do it. And they, you know, they started buying up all these shows and having, you know, all this premium content. And then, you know, like, you look at Rogan, arguably the largest, most listened to podcast, on the face of the earth, and, they put him back on open RSS at the start of the year because they're like, we we're gonna make more money if we do open, if we do advertising on his show than we do trying to get customers to sign up for a Spotify app for the money that we pay him.
Speaker 1:It's like, kidding. Open distribution with RSS and podcasting is the obvious way to go because everyone gets access to it. And it's like you have to learn that lesson over again. But, anyway, the point is with the video stuff, yeah, people are like, oh, you gotta go video. You gotta go video.
Speaker 1:What's that making a podcast any better? It's just that you have a video component to it that people can watch. But largely, people who are, like, tuning into YouTube, like, I'll listen to some podcasts on YouTube largely because I'm just, like, sitting at my desk or doing some work. But as soon as I'm, like, continuing that podcast, like, if I leave, I'm in the car, working out, doing stuff around the house, I'm not looking at It's in you know, I'm listening to it. And it's just like, why?
Speaker 1:Why? What am I missing here from these humans that are just keep recommending, you know, all this investment into video? It's it's mind boggling.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I don't know. I haven't watched a podcast. Like, I just don't. Like, I I don't know.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's because I'm old school, you know, Internet veteran, whatever. Like, I remember having to download MIDI files and things of that nature. You know? So it's like I don't know. Like like you, if I'm at my desk, I'm working.
Speaker 2:And if I have to watch two people talking or whatever or even just one person talking, like, what am I watching? Like, I could just listen to it. You know? And I don't I don't need to hear anything or I don't need to see anything. But, yeah, I'm with you on the the video thing.
Speaker 2:I I think it's just maybe it helps discoverability. I don't know. I haven't been in the past.
Speaker 1:Does because yeah. Because YouTube, obviously, the the search, you know, and the algorithm, and that's what that's what podcasting doesn't have. So the advertising industry in the audio world is saying, oh, spot like, literally, they were just, like, waiting for Spotify to do it. Then they real and then Spotify just folded their cards and, like, we we can't do it anymore. Spending way too much money.
Speaker 1:Spotify laid off thousands of employees. They're profitable now, so Wall Street likes it. But they're just like, yeah. We were trying to just own content only experience. We can't do it.
Speaker 1:Open distribution one. And then who was there to do it? YouTube. Right? So we just went from one corporate beast to the biggest corporate beast.
Speaker 1:And and by the way, Android, owned by Google, they got rid of their podcast app on on Android in favor of YouTube. So they don't care about podcasting. They just care about shoving people into the algorithmic machine to make more money with advertising. That's it at the end of the day. Where do you stand on this AI stuff?
Speaker 1:You we talk about, you know, getting your list to respond, to take action. Way, these mail platforms can say like, oh, these people actually know each other. They care about each other, and there's a connection there, so let's keep serving up their emails. What's your take on on AI when folks come to you when they are burdened by not enough time, not enough, you know, energy to do this? And they're just like, maybe I'll just have AI, you know, run the course of making my content.
Speaker 1:Where do you stand with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So initially, I was like, get off my lawn, you know, kind of stuff. But what's interesting is is that and I think all of it is interconnected. Right? I think what Google and Yahoo did at the beginning of the year, what Apple's doing now, I think all of that is for the better betterment of the user experience with email.
Speaker 2:And I think that that comes by way of how they're reacting towards AI. Because go to ChatGPT or Claude or whatever, like, hey, I have could you write me an email on segmentation for email marketing? And they'll spit out a bunch of stuff. Right? And then it's just a robotic sounding article that people just like, I'm gonna send that via email.
Speaker 2:That's my email for the week, and I'm done. And I think that that that, just like blog posts, is gonna get squashed. Like, I I firmly believe that Gmail is gonna be smart enough just like what they do with the search algorithm that they're gonna detect AI in email content as well and be like, that's junk or not even deliver it Mark you as a spammer and then you really buy an apple. However, I also do think for, like, the genuine business owner and the genuine business that's trying to do email marketing in a in a right way, in a genuine way, and engage their audience and, you know, build sustainability in their business, you can use AI in a way that is useful and efficient for you, like creating a custom GPT of your own, you know, voice and your own audience and your products and your business and all of those kinds of things. I mean, there's a there's a client of mine, coaching client, Lex.
Speaker 2:They are an AI tool. And, basically, their storyline is is that they he's a former developer turned
Speaker 1:Oh, this is the writing app. Right?
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love Lex. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love it. I I I wanna use it, but it's one of these apps where it's same thing. It's like, I love it. I look at it. I'm like, damn.
Speaker 1:These are some great features. And I I wanna I wanna use it more, and I and I don't. But I I still follow him. I still open up his emails because I'm like, I wanna see the stuff he's sending because this stuff is really cool.
Speaker 2:Yep. Yeah. I mean, it's it's basically like ChatGPT, but on writer steroids. Like Yeah. A Google Doc.
Speaker 2:Stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And what they've done is built an integration with Kit that then it learns its AI learns how you write your emails so that then when you ask it for information and all like, your stuff is in there. Right? And I think that that's super useful, especially for, like, the busy entrepreneurs and and things like, you know, almost all Putting it on my
Speaker 1:to do list right now because I was like, I'm going to use this because and now I've now you might have just triggered something I can use it for.
Speaker 2:And and I will tell you this. So I I've tested it, and this was this was funny because I get asked these things from time to time to check these things out and, like, what do you think about these things? And sometimes these things aren't on my radar. But because I planted my flag with Kit, like, people ask me these things. And I gave it a try, and I was I tried Lex a while ago, and I was like, okay.
Speaker 2:This I might as well just use ChatGPT. But then when I integrated it with Kit and it read my broadcasts and all the rest of it, it was, like, 80% from me pushing publish. And I was like, this is awesome. If I just have to lightly edit something, it sounds like me. It uses all my, you know, phrases and how I do sentences and use ellipsis and all the rest of it because I you know, I'm not a grammar guy.
Speaker 2:I just I write like I type. So all my New York stuff is in there, all my kids stuff. I'm like, holy crap. This is really good. You know?
Speaker 2:So you could be super efficient with it, and it helps getting over the blank page. So, like, I write six times a week. So it's like two to three minute read every day, but there are times where I'm sitting, you know, or like this morning, it was chaos, and I was like, what am I writing about today? I don't even know. I didn't even have time to think.
Speaker 2:And then got blank page, and then I'm like, what am I supposed to do? You know? Instead, I could, you know, use something like Lex and stuff and be like, hey. I've got I'm thinking about this product, and I this problem solves this problem. Can you write me something and incorporate a story about the kids?
Speaker 2:And then it'll give me, like, a a draft that's 80 of the way there, and then I just have to put my spin on it. And and it helps. It helps. You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it's something I've been focused on a lot more with the with the content that we do here at the WP Minute. Eric Karkovac, who writes for me, he he does a lot more writing, obviously. I do the podcast and video stuff. But the thing that I'm trying to do, especially on the blog stuff and and and leaning more too in the in the newsletter, is really focusing on, like, the human experience, like, whatever that means for the context of, like, the topic.
Speaker 1:Because, you know, I I had hire like, I I I tried hiring, and I you know, they were fine. Like, I hired some other writers and, you know, and it was just your typical, like it's just like, here here's this oh oh, here's the topic you want me to write about. Here's the here's the words. Yes. You know?
Speaker 1:And it was just like, it's just the words. And I'm like, well, I I you know, I I'm trying to say this in, like, the nicest way, possible, but it was just like, oh, I thought you had experience with this topic, and I thought you'd be writing from it from your your experience. And partly my fault, maybe not for, like, leaning into that direction, but I'm just so used to, like, Eric and I writing from, like, real world experiences. One as, like, that's the North Star for us is to, like, write that kind of content so that it's not mixed up with AI algorithm stuff. Like, this isn't just some AI generated thing.
Speaker 1:And just from, like, the user's perspective, like, you should wanna read or listen to this stuff because these are human experiences. And there's, like, this whole other part of the Internet where it's just, like, dumb information. And if you want dumb information, I don't mean that in a bad way, but there it is. Like, there's your recipe. There's your instruction kit.
Speaker 1:There's your, you know, step by step procedure on how to do something with WordPress. You want that? Go over there. But if you want, like, how humans are doing this WordPress thing for whatever it is, it's over here. Smaller audience.
Speaker 1:Yada yada yada. But, anyway, the point is is, like, I'm I'm really focused on that on that stuff as well. So I I I'm I'm gonna give this Lex a try again. It is a great platform for those listening. Like, if you're if you're looking right, it does a fantastic job.
Speaker 1:You you just have to think about how you're gonna use it, and that's that 10% of my brain is always missing. Yeah. When I sit down to write.
Speaker 2:You know what's funny is is, like, I know my people, my audience. Nobody's in email marketing every day like I am. Nobody cares about it as much. They do sprints. But it's shocking to me to know that I have email subscribers on my list for years.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, you know, why? Like, what haven't I said? You know? Like because I talk about similar stuff all the time. But what it always comes down to is this, like, I really enjoy your stories about your kids, about how you run your business, how you're incorporating, and the things that you talk about in email are things that I need to do.
Speaker 2:Yet, I I kinda store them away. I have a lot of screenshots of people saying, hey. You have your own folder.
Speaker 1:I'm like, I don't know
Speaker 2:if that's good or bad. You just store my stuff. You know? But at the same time, they're like, the emails are just good. It's storytelling.
Speaker 2:Like, you make email marketing and automation relatable to me, and I can understand it. You know, cold subscribers equate to your wife purging all your kids' toys. I mean, you know, you you talk about, you know, personalization in a way that makes a lot of sense because you're just like, oh, I like pizza. He likes hamburgers. You know?
Speaker 2:Like, okay. Great. Like, you just make it simple. And the storytelling is where it's at. I mean, look, I'm a developer.
Speaker 2:I speak geek, technical, real you know, it took me and I've been still studying. I studied copywriting and direct response copywriting and all the rest of it. Eight, nine years, you know, and people for the longest time, I always said, I'm not a writer. You know?
Speaker 1:You're not
Speaker 2:a writer. But people are like, yeah, you are. And I've only started to come around because I do write daily, write to my list every day, and things of that nature. And, like, I look back at some of the emails that I used to write. I'm like, man, that's terrible.
Speaker 2:It's just but I'm like, even a like, AI is better than that. Like, jeez. Like, how is anybody doing anything? Right? So the storytelling matters.
Speaker 2:Like, even in the most boring kind of niches that you think, like, nobody wants to hear you. If you bring your own stuff into it, and that's what I really do is, like, I just sit down. I think, what happened yesterday? Yeah. Is there something that happened yesterday?
Speaker 1:Yeah. The I'll I'll let's let's as we get to the tail end of this episode, let let's go into the to my greedy questions of of where I'm struggling with with Kit. And I'll tell you I'll tell you what I did, which is the absolute kiss of death, you know, for for any probably any, email list. But, you know, if you're listening to this, you haven't subscribed yet, the wpminute.com/subscribe. One of the things that I have been transitioning to as, like, a publisher as a whole is I was, like, trying to really make WordPress news work.
Speaker 1:It was a tough time to quit that concept with the WP engine and and and automatic stuff that that popped off, but, like, I have no desire to be wrapped up in the in the lawsuit. And, one of my clips from an episode that I I did have Matt on was, is is in the court documents for the the case, and I certainly don't want that stress in my life. So I'm done I'm done, like, covering it now. And and, you know, largely done with WordPress news because it doesn't make any money. It's it's a very niche audience, obviously.
Speaker 1:And I'm was really energized to do much more of, like, promoting WordPress and getting people excited about WordPress, the content anyway. So my emails used to be my script. I used to do a five minute show every week on the WP minute, and it used to be my script that I I read on the podcast was the email. And, you know, it's very personal message. Like, there were this is, like, thought provoking stuff and, like, whatever major thing was happening in WordPress at the time.
Speaker 1:And I've shifted away from that. But what I'm still doing now, in the email is putting in that personal note that isn't published anywhere else. So it's not gonna be a blog post. It's not gonna be part of the audio. I mean, it could be like a little a little bit, but it's largely something I'm thinking of about WordPress that week and condensing it down to five or six paragraphs.
Speaker 1:Right? And then and then it's here's the content I shipped this week, whether it's a podcast, a video, an article from Eric, you know, something else I find, like, super interesting. That's the that's the strategy that I've I've implemented for the newsletter. That's just to give you a frame of reference. But what I'm not doing when people sign up is anything else.
Speaker 1:I'm not sending them a sequence. I'm not sending them a automated message that says, thank you. Last or two weeks or three weeks ago, I did do a, as I mentioned, I switched to to Kit. I did a, survey, and, I did tag people that took that survey to let me know what type of WordPress person they are. Freelancer, agency owner, none of the above.
Speaker 1:And, you you know, I had a couple, like, questions, so I could just at least run that against my list. And I'm I'm burying the lead here, but the kiss of death that I did was I took an old Matt report newsletter list from Mailchimp in my current WP minute newsletter and smashed them together so I could have a bigger number. Yep. And it made me feel good, but it also got me off of Mailchimp, which was largely what I wanted to do. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And I definitely see my average open rate drop compared to what WP minute is or was when I was on Mailchimp. It's not hideous. I'm looking at it right now in the last thirty days is 44.18%. I don't know if that's hideous. I it could be bad.
Speaker 1:I don't know. It doesn't look terrible, with an average click rate of 8.21%. K. But that so that's where I'm at. That's the kiss of death.
Speaker 1:So largely, the question is is, like, what should I do next? Like, where do I go next to at least start warming up the list so that I'm not failing at all of these critical endpoints, which is like Apple and Google and Yahoo?
Speaker 2:Yeah. For the existing list, what I would do is for the foreseeable future, say, you know, if you're sending it weekly for, like, the next month, I would take the people that open the emails and click on the emails, send your emails out to them first, and then send it to everyone else an hour later. Just to because what happens there is is that the engaged folks, those that 44%, they're they're already opening. So you're gonna see those numbers go higher. And what happens is when you follow that up to the unengaged folks that aren't checking your email, the Gmails of the world and subsequent Yahoo and Apple eventually and all the rest of it, they're gonna say, oh, we've seen this email before.
Speaker 2:I guess we need to deliver that to the inbox because the reputation from previous engagements on that same email say that this is something that's worth that that's worth it. So I would suggest that for you middle of the funnel. For the people that come on to you onto you, I would take that poll that you made, send set up one email, welcoming them to the list, put that poll in there, and then just give them the expectation of when you're gonna send emails, the kinds of topics that you're gonna discuss, and the format of it. Like, what you just described to me. Like, hey.
Speaker 2:Each of the emails is gonna be a little bit of an editorial of what I'm thinking about and what I've found and things of that nature, points of interest. And then you're gonna get updates on some of the content. And that's what you have to do. Like, just one single email just to kinda do that handshake. And I would and the poll in there gives that engagement factor.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, who are you? Are you a freelancer? You're an agency? Something else.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, just to be able to then now you have a natural segmentation on your list that then you know, like, oh, I don't know why we have an influx of agencies all of a sudden, you know, and that could then shape the kind of content that you're gonna do or sponsors that you get and so on and so forth. So Yeah. I mean, you've already done the work. So it's now it's just like, let's just tweak some things.
Speaker 2:Like, if you're gonna write the emails, then just split the list. Just go back to the last couple of emails that you sent, and everybody that's opened, just tag them with, like, engaged. So now you send engaged folks first, and an hour later, everyone else. And then just add one email into your list to automate that polling right off the bat and ask.
Speaker 1:One of the things I think that I'm missing, and maybe it's in the world that that you operate in, it's a very common, right, for like, I don't have that when I say it, I I'm actually thinking about it out loud, so I I guess I I kinda do. So I I don't have something I'm selling to somebody. I do have membership, which is, like, if you make a, at minimum, a $5 donation, you can join the WP Minute Slack. Right? It's really just a way to help me pay writers.
Speaker 1:Right? But as, like, an independent sort of journal journalistic experiment, I look for sponsors, I look for folks who, like, drop donations in so that I can pay other writers. Right? That's that's really the goal is to, like, get people writing about WordPress. So I guess I do have that as the end result.
Speaker 1:And what what I'm getting at is is it it's must must must be much easier to have somebody that you're consulting with that has that product that they want somebody to buy. Right? Because I'd imagine you're doing, like, all roads lead to Mhmm. A conversion. But what about people who are just like, no, man.
Speaker 1:I just wanna publish content. I just want want people to read my newsletters. Is is that too crazy of an ask?
Speaker 2:Crazy of an ask. I will always ask for what reason? Yeah. Right? Like, I truth is is everybody that comes to me, they wanna sell through email.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:They might not have a product yet. They might have the audience. They just might not have the product yet. So they're, like, trying to figure out what is it that I'm selling. Am I selling memberships like everybody says I should?
Speaker 2:Should I make a digital course? Should I and so on and so forth. So there's always some endgame. And so, you know, if it's where it's if it's truly altruistic and it's like, hey, I'm just doing good for the world or whatever, I you know, maybe it's just me, but I haven't found that person yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But, you know, like, I would if you have that donation in every single email, you know, I would if you're not doing it in every single email, definitely do it in every single email. And then if you do do it in every email, mix up how it looks. Yeah. Because just like back in the day when you had banner ads across blogs and all the rest of it, nobody sees that stuff after a while.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, it's just like, oh, yeah. I forgot. Like, you got 8,000 ad, like, all those recipe sites where you're you're just looking through here, You know? So if the, you know, the Slack is the thing for the donation, try to change up what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Sometimes being a text, sometimes being a button, sometimes even in a PS, sometimes up at the top, you know, things like that. And people will click on it for sure, and you'll you'll see more donations for sure. And then that'll fuel the fire behind the scenes and maybe get more content. That's kinda how that flywheel starts working. I mean, I think sponsorship for you probably would be a good avenue as well.
Speaker 2:I mean, you have Yeah.
Speaker 1:Sponsor is the
Speaker 2:very targeted audience. So Yeah. You know? And even if you broke it down, like, you know, like, hey, 30% of my list are agencies, I mean, that's that's where even more money comes into play. Like, you could charge for that.
Speaker 2:You're like, hey. I'm gonna run an advertising a campaign that's just straight to agencies. You know, you could be creative about that. Justin Moore talks all about that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. One last question. So I have, for folks who have, like, a backlog of of content like I do, one of the things I was thinking is, okay. If I can get folks segmented, right, they take the survey, freelancer agency oh, product owner was the other one. And I have all these different categories of of content.
Speaker 1:I think you've kind of answered it when we talked about all roads lead to where's that maybe monetization play. I'm thinking, how do I how do I keep this person engaged when I've got all this back catalog content? Maybe I want them to see it. Does it make sense to, like, once a month to all the freelancers, send them a freelancer article that we wrote? Once a month, send the product owners an interview we did with somebody who's making a million dollars a year with a with a WordPress plugin.
Speaker 1:Like, does it make sense, or is that just ends up being just broadcast content that people are just like, uninterested?
Speaker 2:I would take the content that is specific to those people and create an evergreen sequence that goes out on the other day, another day of the week. So now you got two upbats a week. Right. So in other words, like, let's say Tuesday is your day that you normally send emails. So on Thursday, they're gonna get evergreen content that is valuable in regards to who they are.
Speaker 2:And then what you can do in your welcome sequence when you frame that poll saying, hey. We have a huge back catalog of resources, tips, you know, articles based on who you are. Please fill this out, and then you will get that. You'll get that a long time along with our real, you know, real time information as well. And then now you got multiple times.
Speaker 2:And even if it's just something that you'd set up where it's like two months and then it's done, you know, that's fine. Then they go into, you know, just the once a week thing. But that that's what I would suggest to do. I mean, I did that for quite some time. I had actually twenty seven weeks of content because I was writing daily.
Speaker 2:And so I was like, you know what? I'm going to make a hybrid evergreen sequence where I got busy.
Speaker 1:And I was like,
Speaker 2:look. I just you know, I can't write every day, but I've got all this back content. And so what I did was Monday, Tuesdays, Thursday, Fridays was evergreen content, and Wednesdays and weekends was the real time content. And so that lightened the load for me because there were some times where Wednesdays wasn't met or the weekends wasn't met or something like that, but people were still being engaged. And so, you know, they were getting valuable information, and, you know, they knew that.
Speaker 2:I was upfront about it. So Yeah. You know? But nobody was to the wiser anyway. They didn't care
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:As long as that information is valuable.
Speaker 1:Jason Reznick. Rez.com. Three z's, r e z z z dot com. Nurturekit.co if you want to chew his ear off, and, get some great consultation, about setting up your kit account or, sure other platforms as well. Nurturekit.co.
Speaker 1:Jason, where else can folks go to say thanks?
Speaker 2:Yeah. At rezon x when I'm there. I don't know if there are very much, but you could go check out the YouTube channel, youtube.com/nurturekit. And, yeah, I'm always open to email. I mean, that's where I'm at all day, every day.
Speaker 2:So if you're on my list, just hit hit reply. You don't have to worry about, you know, hey. This is in in reply to the email that you sent to me, but just hit reply. I'm open to a conversation always.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. So thanks, Jason. Thanks for hanging out today.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thanks, Matt.
