The WP Minute+

Matt: Vo Feldman FIUs,
welcome to the WP Minute.

Thank you, Matt.

I'm joined and glad to be here.

it's been a while since you, you
and I have chatted on record, so I'm

assuming this will be really fun today.

it's been a few years.

Where is FIUs these days?

How have you changed over the
course of the last few years?

And, how's business generally for you?

Vova: Yeah, business is doing well.

In the past year or so, we expanded
beyond the WordPress ecosystem.

It was something that we,
you know, always plan to do.

Just we're not sure what would be the
next kind of platform or ecosystem.

And we're strongly
focused on SaaS and apps.

As obviously we can see what's happening
right now, SaaS is exploding and with

ai it's even, you know, happening.

It's just became so much easier
to start any type of software.

so we've been doing that for, like
I said, the last, year and a half.

We went through rebranding process.

You ask about several years, you know, so
we grown as a team hired leadership team.

I'm really excited about the people that
I'm working with and helping me, you

know, to get us to our next iteration,
basically trying to be that go-to

solution for selling any type of software.

Matt: I love this.

I love the rebrand, by the way.

I believe I commended you on Twitter.

If I didn't, I, I apologize.

I should have the, the
new rebrand on free.

MIUs is great.

frees.com

links will be in the show notes.

Of course.

The new H one on the homepage
says, simplify software

sales, amplify innovation.

For those that don't know, I'll, I'll
draw the, the broader, outline and

then you, you can fill in the color.

Years and years ago, in fact I
was talking that we, I just coming

back from press conf, part of the
conversation was, man, it's been great.

It's great to be back in a
room with a bunch of people.

We are building WordPress software
again, and, and like talking

about the business side of it.

And I was sort of, you know,
reliving the past where in the

hallway tracks of word camps.

Like we were talking to Pippen Williamson
of Easy Digital downloads and he

was like building the software for
people as we were selling it, right?

Like he was taking feature
requests in the hallway and like,

I'm gonna build this for you.

And that's like the, the process we all
kind of grew up in Frees really took.

What I would say that took the throne
of like the go-to place for any serious.

At the time, WordPress,
software business, right?

Produce licenses, connect it up to, a
e-commerce platform, and then have like

these different modes of, of being able
to sell and get emails and capture, like

you were really to simplify it like you
were really looking at the big picture.

Of the e-commerce world for
WordPress agencies and product

owners beyond just the license key.

Whereas where like EDD stopped,
EDD was like, here's a license,

here's some cool graphs, good luck.

Like you were building everything
else, that infrastructure around that.

Are you still trying to build
that same infrastructure for

WordPress software and beyond now?

Like how has that changed, if at all?

Vova: Absolutely.

So actually before we got into SaaS,
sorry, my cat here is going crazy,

trying to climb on me and bump the
mic, so I'm fighting with him a bit.

so before we got into SaaS, we wanted to
ensure that, you know, we can bring value

and not just starting another solution.

and we started to do interviews
with SAS makers and our, customers

and kind of understand why they
like us, how, like what the things

that we're doing differently.

And I think our approach or realization
is that, developers, technical founders,

software makers, they can build
software, they can innovate and you know.

Offering them the tool to
sell is one thing, but just

offering the, that was the cat.

But offering the, just giving you the,
you know, the tool to sell is not enough.

'cause just the payment part of thing
solves you a technical problem, but you

still need to think about the pricing,
all the marketing automation in place.

Like in order to maximize the, the money
side of the business, you need someone.

To direct you.

Either proactively with advice or the,
the, the platform needs to be opinionated

towards your category of whatever you're
selling in order to solve those things.

Otherwise, there is a very
long like learning curve

that you need to figure out.

Those things yourself and the commerce
space keep evolving all the time.

There are new techniques, how to
sell, new things are getting popular,

and now with ai, like usage based.

Kind of pricing is something
that became very popular.

but what, what I like saying is that,
you know, if I give you, like the

fastest racing car in the world, right?

You won't be able to
get the most out of it.

You need the team behind it.

You need the person, you know, the,
the engine guy, the, the people who

will replace the, the wheels will.

Whatever, you know, all the team
behind, so we sing ourselves as.

That team that offers you that
fastest car in the world, but also

gives you the backing so you'll
know how to get the most out of it.

So this is the approach we
take and definitely, you know,

looking on the SaaS ecosystem,
the situation is the same, right?

Building the app, the SaaS, like today
with ai, it's becoming very easy.

I mean the, the row
initial MVP, I would say.

But taking that and actually turning
that into a business requires so much

more knowledge, guidance, direction,
experience, the right emails to be sent.

How do you phrase those emails?

The upsells, you know, the, the surveys
that you need to avoid to reduce churn.

There are so many moving parts and this is
what we want to tackle as a whole package.

Matt: I'm curious how you have managed to.

What I'll call like this hands-on
experience of like educating other

entrepreneurs and, and guiding them
through like this whole process.

I'm curious on how you've managed to scale
this over the years, and I would assume

maybe you're still iterating on it because
I like, I totally believe that unscalable

things like this, like hands-on customer
support, walking you through the product.

Educating you, bringing
you to the next level.

I truly believe in that stuff,
and I mean this in the best sense.

My friend, our friend probably, sed bulky.

I often think about when I look
at things that I'm doing that are

unscalable, I go, would Syed do this?

And I think he would not do this
right because he's a very dollars

and cents optimize the business
profitability, at least in my opinion.

But I can't let go of this.

Like I love the fact that you're helping
folks, but is it scalable and, and

how have you solved it over the years?

Vova: So we are still kind of
figuring out how to scale that.

it definitely come with the challenges.

but I would say that like if you're
thinking about the journey of a maker, I.

You don't really need to
have that high touch, kind of

interactions on an ongoing basis.

I mean, obviously that will be great,
but there are like critical points in

the journey where you need that guidance.

And those are typically when
you're launching something, right?

When you're pricing and packaging
something which can come in

multiple, every few years, you
better do some pricing and packaging.

It's not like constantly there is how do
I grow the team, you know, hiring my first

developer, my first support engineer.

How do I tackle my first,
I don't know, partnership?

until you get to the point of, oh,
I am ready to sell my business.

So if you think about it, it's
not like we need to speak with

every maker on a weekly basis.

In fact, we had several periods where
we had a full-time, call that, you

know, maker success role, and we kind of
posted, Hey guys, like we, here we are.

You know, we wanna scale this.

Like, meet us whenever you want.

And we actually saw that people are
very busy and we didn't get like

the, you know, the, the amount of
interaction that we, thought we'll get.

so I would say a lot of that can be
solved through educational content

and just by guiding people to the
right educational content, right?

Because we're kind of conquering
the software niche or previously

the WordPress niche we tackled.

Each of those growth stages and we have an
article that is like hyperfocused on that,

a video that is hyperfocused on that.

So when someone either reach out to us
or we know we see an opportunity that you

know, they better, Consume that knowledge.

we can just like very targeted, tell
them, Hey guys, like look at this.

If you want more than that,
like, we're happy to chat.

So I think educational content and
the fact that we are very focused

on the, the niche of software, like
we can provide very targeted advice.

Through content and not necessarily
having that one-on-one conversation.

Many times one-on-one
makes it easier, right?

Because you hear the story, you
hear the background, the needs,

and you can like tailor feedback
specifically for the use case.

And that's also an option.

So like we are very encouraging
people to schedule time with us.

so I would say it's, it's a
mixture of being reactive.

To what's coming through support
and encouraging and different.

Touch points in FIUs
in the software itself.

Like in the pricing, we say, Hey, like
if you don't have experience in pricing,

you know, schedule a call with us.

We're happy to help like in those places.

And obviously we're very open, so
if people are reaching out to us as

well as if we see opportunities, you
know, so we analyze data, look on some

things, we say, oh, you know, this
person, they have an amazing product.

Like they should make more money.

Right?

Let's see what's happening there.

But we, we definitely need to scale that.

It's not there yet.

Matt: At what point did you realize
we have the go beyond WordPress here?

I.

Was it the dawn of AI and people
starting to build, you know, you know,

fools like me who have access now
to, to code things and react and, you

know, vibe code my way to success.

Like at, what was it that, or was it
previous to that and you started to

recognize the, the shift in the market.

What was that aha moment for you and
your team to be like, okay, we're gonna

shift away from purely WordPress and
focus on all software at this point.

Vova: Yeah, so it's a great question and I
think the answer will be a bit surprising.

it happened before we started, before
free use was established because my

background is going the VC route,
you know, building those startups.

So when I started free use before having
any product, I went to raise money.

And I created presentations.

And if you wanna sell, you know, a big
vision to investors, it has to be huge.

So I had to force think myself,
okay, how big this can be, and

WordPress, I mean, it's big.

But it's not this big, you know?

So I had to think that, okay, what
would be next after WordPress?

And I still have those slides,
that there are many ecosystems.

SaaS was actually not one
of those options because the

thinking was more about platforms.

Basically ecosystems that
extend something, right?

I did think about mobile apps,
but again, those are conquered

by Apple and Google, right?

Because they own the distribution.

But there are Wix and HubSpot and Drupal
and there, there are many ecosystems.

browser extensions is pretty massive.

but yeah, so, so it was always the plan.

We're not sure when would be
the right moment to do it.

And actually the timing it, it's not
because of what happened, you know,

with all the workers drama or ai.

It's just, I would say that I got
the right people to go through

the process, do the rebrand.

It just happened, you know,
the timing was good and right

before all the mess started.

But, so, so it was always a plan.

I was forced to think big just because
of those initial presentations.

Matt: I wanna talk about
the pricing in a moment.

I remember you starting FIUs,
obviously many years ago.

Lemme take a step back.

I wanna frame this and, and I know
you're not a guy who, who you know,

wants any, you know, platitudes
or anything like that, but I.

Over the years.

I think a lot of people have, at
least not a lot, but I've seen it

on Twitter and I've always tried
to step in to defend it, right?

People have always like questioned like,
oh, pricing and percentage, and you

know, all these other things that maybe
the user experience as you've grown

over time and I have to commend you.

I.

For holding your ground so positively,
when you do get, when you did get

criticism on Twitter and, it is
always just like, man, people,

what, what, what do you want?

You know, like, what more do you need
from FIUs and Nova's team, you know, to.

To just make the exchange, like you're
not gonna build it yourself and you can't

complain about EDD at the same time.

so then what are we doing here?

Like, freemium is gonna help you
do all of these things, and Yes,

you have to make an exchange for,
a percentage of, of your sales.

And I say all this because in the
WordPress world, I feel like there's

always that barrier where the person
selling things are, they're just so.

I mean, I, I guess price
sensitive, for sure.

But it's because they're, they're,
they're trying to run like a hobby

business, but also think like they're
Mark Zuckerberg at the same time.

And it's just like, you
can't connect these two dots.

Like you're either going to think and work
on your business, but at the same time,

like you can't complain about like a.

6%, 7%, 8%, whatever the transaction
fees were as you've been, you

know, growing the business.

so I have to commend you on like standing
your ground and being very positive and

still adding more features and listening
to the customers over, over time.

I would imagine that the WordPress space.

Particularly you're, you're particularly
challenged with that, right?

over the years.

Like people like, oh man, is it 5%?

Is it 8%?

Why should I pay you?

Why should I do this other thing?

I assume you hear that more on the
WordPress side than if somebody

was just building a random
piece of software with React.

Vova: So I think it's a matter of,
you know, being used to things I.

People are, it's challenging to when
something that it's not the standard or

not common is coming into an ecosystem.

How do they digest that?

so, you know, like when everyone,
were used to WooCommerce or in

general like plugins and WordPress,
that you get the code Cs, you

do whatever you want with that.

But you still need to plug Stripe, right?

Or something else.

You can just work without it.

But that was okay because
there's no other way.

Right?

And I think the whole concept of, merchant
of record, you know, or super payment

processors, whatever you want to call
that, it's just became more popular and

known outside of the WordPress ecosystem.

So it has.

A longer track record,
right, of being used.

So if I'm a new player, a new maker,
working on my first product, and I'm.

Getting into X or LinkedIn and
asking, oh, what should they use?

And you know, you hear 10 answers,
five of them are payment processor,

five of them are merchant of record.

Then it's like part of the norm.

You know, in WordPress that
simply wasn't the case.

So FIUs was kind of this,
you know, different player.

so it's, it's pretty normal and.

We set holding my, you know, our grounds.

Like we always listening and
like when we started framing, the

price was ridiculously higher.

Right?

I remember it was like

Matt: multiple tiers and like,
you had to calculate like,

where am I gonna end up on this?

Vova: There, there will experi, you know,
I experimented with pricing and actuallys.

Speaking of s.

Like, he gave me good feedback.

I met him in Loop Conference,
I think it was in Vegas.

And I was like, what do you think?

And he gave me, he was one of the
people that gave me authentic,

you know, real feedback.

No bullshit.

so it was good.

And.

As part of the process, I realized
in the beginning because it was hard

to get those, that initial traction
that I have to adjust because

my point of reference was wrong.

Like the way I looked on Fios, I said,
oh, you know, what is the WordPress

kind of what other similar solutions I.

Our charging.

And for me the closest
was actually marketplaces.

'cause marketplaces solved all
those things automatically.

so I, compared to marketplace, which
is incorrect, obviously, I also wanna,

you know, say kind of what I learned
and I, I did try to experiment like.

If I could for sure.

Let's say we reduce our price for
WordPress by certain percentage and

know that we can get much more makers
to use frame, use much more WordPress

plugin theme developers to use
frame use, we would likely do that.

But based on what we experimented,
and I'll just break down the logic

with you, you'll see that it, it
doesn't make sense for us yet.

I would say that for people who are
just starting out, their product free

use became no brainer in WordPress.

'cause you don't need
to pay anything, right?

Instead of, if you go to EDD, you need
to spend like 300, $500 something that

is a newbie you don't have to spend.

So you better go with a solution that
it's free for you in the beginning.

So I think we're in the, we are
in the space right now that it's.

No brainer to go with freemium.

If you're starting a new WordPress
solution, if you're already processing

high volumes, that's when the the pricing
kind of thing starts to hurt because you

can like really see what it means for you.

And you compare weight.

I'm paying X amount of dollars, which
is a static annual number, versus

like, shit, I need to pay a percentage.

Right?

And you start to think,
this is worth it or not.

And I try to reach out to.

bakers were in good friends
and like really come up.

That gave me a lot of signals.

Some of them, you know,
are mutual friends.

They gave me signals that they
really want to use FIUs, and

it's just a matter of price.

And I kind of told them in
a number, you know, like if

that's, I, I wanna experiment.

I wanna see that this
is really the barrier.

And they came up with a number,
and I tried it with several people

that are like friends, you know?

And they didn't make the move.

They figure out other excuses, you
know, found additional barriers to

make the trans like, you know, to
block them from making the transition.

So I don't think this is the price.

Like if I would see evidence that this is
the price and we can get, you know, many

more makers to use the platform, like
high volume makers, we would do that.

In fact, if you go to our
pricing page, we now show.

like, higher numbers, like
we, we are the only one that

have like transparent pricing.

It's experimentation.

Everyone, like pricing apps,
experts telling us that we're

stupid and we should not do that.

But we say let's be different on that
angle and kind of give you, so you can

exactly know how much you're going to pay.

And it's kind of, the more you make,
the less you pay and it's transparent.

and I am pitching that to, you
know, higher ticket makers,

let's call it this way.

And I don't think this is it.

It's still there, it's still public.

And we'll see how it goes.

The goal is to try to get those,
but I don't think it's surprised.

There are other reasons and.

Honestly, what I found is that people
in general, you know, it's a big move

to make a transition because it's like
your entire payment and in addition to

the psychological kind of challenges,
there's also, especially in space,

like personal investment, you know,
because of all the issues in those

solutions you had to yourself learn.

And fix bug bugs and develop
your own extensions to make

it work the way you want it.

So you invested in that, I don't
know, like, tens of hundreds

of hours in the past 10 years.

It's emotionally so hard
to give up on that, right?

So until they will feel that.

The issue like, like there is a higher
pain, you know, something that they, they

say, fuck it, I'm tired of this shit.

You know, I can't keep up with that.

Or whatever.

Something bad will happen.

They won't really make a move and it
doesn't matter what we offer them, and

it doesn't matter what is the price.

Matt: It's a fantastic observation.

I want to talk about the
price pricing in a moment.

Then I wanna get into AI as
we sort of wrap things up.

But first, can you define the value add
of merchant of record and what that means

to somebody who's just like, well, why
don't I just do Stripe to directly, like,

what does merchant of record mean to you
and, and what's that value that somebody

should be seeing in that headline, which
is so prominent on the pricing page.

Vova: Yeah.

so I just wanna say that freemiums main
differentiator versus something like

Stripe is not the merchant of record.

It just by chance happened that
we became a merchant of record.

That's another story I can, you know,
keep it, but I will answer your question.

Why to go with a merchant of record.

So, first of all, Stripe or PayPal,
or other payment processors are not

the same as they were 10 years ago.

So 10 years ago, the price was 2.9%

plus 30 cents for everything flat price.

This is not the situation today.

Today, when you selling subscriptions
globally, there are additional,

some of them are hidden fees, some
of them are not hidden fees, but

the effective rate that you're
actually paying a payment processor.

It can be easily two, three, even
four times more than that base price.

There is 1.5%

for cross border transactions.

Point four 4.4

0.4%

for, if you want to do like invoices,
you want to do, taxes, just monitoring.

It's another 0.7%.

Like there is so many of those
additional fees, so they stack up.

So.

The difference in price.

I just wanted to establish
that as a base point.

The difference in price if you're
selling subscriptions globally, not

locally, is not so meaningful anymore.

It's almost the same in terms of
the benefits of merchant of record.

So merchant record is the legal
entity that basically liable for

the transaction and the official
relationship, the legal relationship.

Between the customer and the seller.

Right?

So the way the structure works is that,
let's say a software is using FIUs, then

we are becoming their single customer.

They're like selling us their software.

We're legally reselling
it to their customers.

The benefits of that is that all that
liability is moved to the merchant of

record, which means that there are, re
like we're responsible for the fraud

for dealing with disputes, chargebacks.

and there a lot of those.

Gimme a second.

I'm hearing my son coming.

So we'll close the door.

This is the way of working from home.

You know, the perks.

anyway, so, so for, for people
who are just starting out, it's

a big deal because of fraud.

Why?

Because if you are just starting out with
a payment processor, 'cause those are

actually, they call merchant aggregators.

You don't establish a relationship
directly with Visa or MasterCard.

Like Stripe is that aggregator.

So.

There are a lot of like regulations
and risks and you know, compliance

shit that they have to deal with.

So if they see a new account without
historical, like track record of payment.

Once you cross point 75% in disputes rate,
you're immediately flagged as high risk.

And if it's a bit more than that,
it's very easy by them because they

can't really predict how successful
your solution will be, right?

For them.

You are nothing in hundreds of
billions of dollars, so they

don't wanna risk that hundreds of
billions of dollars 'cause of that.

No one right now.

Right?

So they will just block your
account 'cause it's very easy.

And there are stories
like that all the time.

So by using a merchant of record,
because in the beginning you will not

focus on building security to your
checkout, it's just not your thing.

You know, you wanna focus on launching
as soon as possible an MVP, and see

that there's demand for your product.

You don't wanna spend, I don't know, extra
two weeks just on securing your checkout.

It's just not, it doesn't make sense.

So by using a merchant of record.

Because of.

It's kind of a single account for
Stripe and accountable for all

those, transactions over the years.

Right?

We develop like multi-layer
security, anti-car testing layers

because we don't want to get
fucked up because of that, right?

So you get kind of an insurance.

That your account will not
get blocked right away.

So that's the benefit for
someone who is just starting out.

For someone who is scaling their
business globally, there's a whole

headache of global sales taxes.

So once you're just selling to
a single customer in the us,

usually a Delaware company.

There are no taxes involved, you know,
so basically all the global sales

stack compliance and also there are
like privacy regulations, there are

compliances happening all the time.

Becomes simply the problem
of the merchant, of record

of frames in our case and.

You know, whether we comply with something
or not, you shouldn't care about it

because it becomes legally our problem.

So I would say this is kind of the, the
big differences, the big advantages, for

like someone who is just starting out
and how someone who is scaling and the

price difference is no longer meaningful.

So it was a long explanation, but

Matt: yeah.

No, but it, no, it, it
makes, it makes total sense.

Let's get to that pricing really quick.

So if you're a WordPress and
make sure, I'm just understanding

the pricing page, right?

So if somebody listening to this is
like, okay, I'm gonna wanna move my

WordPress sales over freemium.com/pricing.

On the left hand side,
the primary fee is 4.7%

plus gateway fees.

And then if I'm WordPress,
it's a, an additional 2.3%.

Am I getting that correct?

So it's roughly 7% plus gateway fees.

Is that a fair assessment?

Vova: That's exactly right.

Matt: And when I start to,
okay, so we've got the value

down from merchant of record.

marketing has like the affiliate program
or platform, car abandonment coupons, a

discount subscription recovery campaigns.

I mean, just that marketing column alone,
like those would probably be additional.

Fees or you're buying some other plugin
or you're buying some other service

to, to do these kinds of things.

Do you have those conversations with
WordPress software folks who are like,

okay, it's not just the 7%, it's the
7%, but you're getting all this other,

you know, all these other service, a
add-ons if you will, to help with the

marketing and sales of the plugin.

Like do you ever have to make that.

Paint that picture to that person
to say, you're getting all this

other stuff too, or do they just
look at it and go, man, 7%, like

what am I supposed to do with this?

Vova: I think it depends.

Sorry to tell something that kind of,
one size fits all and it depends on, I

would say if I look on kind of a spectrum
of makers or people who are very techy

and people who are business driven.

It's very easy to sell for
emails to business driven people.

Yeah, right.

They just want something that
works and focus on their product,

innovating, improving, et cetera.

If they can delegate the entire, like
operational headache and hassles to

a third party, reducing legal tax
liability, it's like very easy decision.

If you're very techie, you want to
control everything and customize

everything and own everything and
all, all those perceptional things.

And it's becoming more challenging.

And like I said, I feel that the
price is not the main blocker.

So I think that when I'm trying
to kind of draw the story,

I'm trying to explain that,

like think about you have your own
team that focused on your money.

Because this is what we do.

You know exactly what we do.

We on a daily basis have a team
that in addition to, you know,

marketing Frees, but we keep improving
the money side of your business,

you just can't get it yourself.

As simple as that and Right.

The way we offer that is
this like fully integrated.

Business in a box solution.

With all those best practices, looking
on the entire customer life cycle,

constantly trying to improve conversion,
reduce churn, increase lifetime value.

It's like there is all this, you
know, minions behind the scenes

trying to help you make more money.

And based on like data we have.

Hundreds of success stories, whoever
move to free use, they're more successful

in free use and happier because
it just reduced a lot of headache.

Yeah.

For them.

so, so that's the, the story that
I'm, you know, trying the, the

true story that I'm trying to draw.

And rather than trying to quantify,
you know, this feature or that

feature, I think the most like heavy
re like resource that it being.

Un noticeably wasted.

Is the maker's time, right?

Yeah.

Like, oh, it's a little bug.

Oh, it's a little update on it.

But you end up with so many things.

Maybe not in the beginning, but over
the years it's like all accumulate

and it's, it's just very costly.

Matt: I think this is one of the
advantages, transitioning over

to, like, talking about AI stuff.

I think this is one of the
advantages you have right now.

I.

You know, I, I've been building
these, what I call utility apps.

I've been just, just so I
can learn and experiment.

I've been building like,
WordPress news aggregators.

I've been building podcast aggregators
content that I normally interact with.

I call these utility apps 'cause
they actually help me with like

the day-to-day work that I do
with media and stuff like that.

I haven't set out to do anything like
commercial yet, but I, I feel like I'm

starting to get, more foundation under
my feet to be able to like build a, a

web app, which I could never have done,
you know, a year ago, with some apps like

Bolt and, and Rep Lit and stuff like that.

The point that I'm getting at is.

With a solution like yours, I think
people are going to, with AI are going

to be hopefully more business driven,
where they're like, I've got this app

idea, I've got this software idea.

I'm certainly not gonna
build MIUs with my ai.

Like I'm not gonna build
a MIUs solution with ai.

That's too risky.

I don't even know where to begin.

But I can make this like nice little
utility app that I can sell to people.

They might just turn to FIUs.

And say, yeah, lemme just plug this in.

Lemme just plug this in As my sales, as
my e-commerce for selling this software.

and I think that that's a particular
advantage you're in, in the world of ai.

Have you seen any customers come
through that are like, listen man,

I'm not even a technical guy person,
but I'm building the software with AI

and I just wanna plug your solution in
because it's easy, fast, and I don't

really care about the percentage.

Like you said, I just want
to build this business.

And then they'll go out and
market and, and get customers.

So the question is, have you seen any
of those types of creators come to you

yet that are like, I'm not technical.

I built this thing and now
I just need to sell it?

Vova: Yeah.

So first we're talking about
AI in the context of how to, I.

You know, transition to be, I don't wanna
say AI first, I don't feel we're there

yet, but how AI becomes a meaningful
part of what we do almost every week.

so I.

I didn't personally stumble into a
situation of someone who just, you

know, build some lovable thingy and,
oh, I integrated with free meals.

Lemme tell

Matt: you, there's some YouTube
channels out there who are telling

people they can make like $10,000 a day

Vova: building AI

Matt: apps.

Vova: So, so this is definitely
one of the things that we want to.

allow people to do, like, integrate,
I think it's called MCP or something.

You know, I'm a little bit
remote now from tech because

I'm no longer coding these days.

but we definitely want to be in
that, you know, play in that,

field, of AI and make it possible.

I don't think we want.

Like complete junk, a hundred
percent AI created apps just to make

a quick buck and then, you know,
we'll create a lot of chargebacks.

That's 'cause again, we're
the merchant of record.

It's like pretty high risky to get those.

But it is very possible
that the future of apps.

We'll start with people
who are not coders.

You know, people who are more business
driven that go mock an app in one

of those solutions and then pass it
over to someone who is a developer,

but maybe get that initial traction.

They will want to connect that to a.

To a payment solution in place.

So this is definitely one avenue
that we wanna play in and I'm already

seeing competitors, like a new, new
competitor, starting with that single

feature, right, of being able to,
with that, with the AI workflows

to integrate the payment solution.

It's very basic, very simple, but.

We definitely want to be in a place
where in every api, every AI like

app creator, you'll be able to
say, you know, cool, it looks good.

Now add it to free use and it will
just spin you whatever is needed

and integrate it with free use.

And it's doable and, like
we are on it, you know?

So this is one.

Kind of place we want to be.

The other one is access to data.

like right now, the insights and
analytics that we show are limited

to what we wanna offer, right?

So yes, you can export the data
and analyze it, can connect it to

Gemini if you, you know, already
using Google Sheets and all of that.

But.

There's no reason not to introduce
this little, like, chat where you can,

Hey, tell me what is, you know, the
amount of money I made in this country

in this month, and who were, I don't
know, my top customers, whatever.

Basically opening up.

Access to the database in a
more kind of free text, way.

This is another thing that we want
to do, and obviously insights.

We have a lot of data and there's a
lot of data out there in the world.

So if we can mix two, right, doing
things like pricing insights, right?

So based on the data and what's
happening outside of your vertical,

we think you should increase
the price here to this number.

So, so there is a lot of disinteresting
opportunities coming with ai and

we're strategically thinking about
that and hiring data science roles.

yeah.

Where in the ai,

Matt: h how deep have you started to adopt
AI in the business for day-to-day stuff?

Coding, marketing, content?

Are you using it to find
efficiencies for your own workflows?

We're all using ai.

Yeah.

Is it a company mandate or do you,
like, do you find that your team is

actually interested to learn this stuff?

Or are you having to be the,
the person who says, go out

and adopt this technology?

Vova: So I think the dev team is very,
you know, in the front of that, I also

personally, you know, an early adopters.

Obviously I shared it as early
as possible with the team.

'cause I'm, you know, working
with AI probably half of my time.

Yeah.

'cause it's amazing in communications,
in written communications,

especially not only written anymore.

Right.

So I, I just see the power of
it and how much time it saves

is just, if you're not using ai.

No, you are losing this

Matt: space.

Yeah.

And this morning I made a, d
script, DS script, the, audio video

editing app quickly now becoming
like all things AI video as well.

I, I made a, a video avatar.

It has a, a visual avatar.

You write the script, it has a
voice, it lip syncs to the avatar.

All the effects, like transitions
and stuff, and I made like a 58

second like ad for WP Minute.

It's just like, man, like this stuff, like
it looks, it still looks creepy, right?

I mean, they just launched it.

So it's kind of just like, eh, it's not
like you don't believe it's a human.

Like, you know, it's give it a week.

Give it a week.

Yeah.

Give it a week.

Right?

That's, that's exactly it.

So it's like, give it a, literally give
it a week, maybe two, and the thing is

gonna look a hundred percent human and
your, your, your mind's gonna be blown.

And it really actually had me
thinking, this is a little off

topic, but it had me thinking, you
know, maybe this technology isn't.

For like the techies, like you and
I and the folks listening to this.

But if you're like a landscaping
business, like a plumber and you know,

concept of like content marketing and
like putting yourself on a video and

writing a good script and making ads
and stuff like that, like this stuff

is gonna be, I think, revolutionary
for the small business owners as long

as they can get it in their hands.

I think that stuff is
gonna be pretty powerful.

for the folks who have never
done this stuff before, I.

Vova: Yeah, it, it's just, I
can see my father using Chen

GPT, which is kind of crazy.

Matt: Yeah.

Do you see, again, coming off, the trip
back from Press Conf, Rich Taber talked

a lot about this in, his presentation.

Rich Taber, works at Automatic.

He was talking about the use of
AI and how like Automatic has,

you know, really adopted a lot of,
you know, a company wide thing.

Like everyone has to learn ai.

It doesn't really matter like which
direction you're going in with it, but

just like learn it and understand it.

And I, I would imagine the
directive is like, hopefully all

this stuff benefits WordPress.

He was hoping that word, that ai, that
WordPress can be the CMS of choice for ai.

In other words, if, you know, I don't want
to, if I went to ai, I could build a blog.

I could say, Hey, build me
a blog database backend.

I could make posts and pages.

Why do all that when like, WordPress
is already done for you, but maybe

you want like it to be 10% different
than what WordPress is today.

So his hopes are WordPress can become
AI's choice for building a CMS.

What's your outlook on how WordPress
survives through AI and being able

to build any platform with AI coding?

Are we in a good position or a slightly
nervous position with AI in WordPress?

Vova: I didn't think about it before.

So this is Blaine.

Five Second intuition.

I think we're not in good place.

And I think our achilles heel
ears backward compatibility.

yeah, that's probably my answer.

You know, we can't, like, if we would
want to adapt to that world, we would

have to reimagine WordPress from, at
least from a cold base as a start.

'cause you can't like.

Keep staying backward compatible and
using the latest technology and move

fast like this, like as we said, right.

Every week.

It's just moving so fast.

Matt: Yeah.

Vova: And I think that's another
weakness, you know, the whole community

driven, like decisions are slow.

Yeah.

Unless you appoint someone that will be
moving fast, dictating like a squad team,

you know, whether it's automatic or.

Some squad team that has
the mandate to move fast.

But if you wanna move fast, you can
do backward compatible Right, as well.

So

Matt: I, I was thinking like.

When I started to learn AI and I
was thinking, man, you know what?

Blocks actually sounds pretty good.

Like in a world where ai, where
you just can prompt it, wouldn't

it be great if it just like looked
at a core set of WordPress blocks?

I was like, oh, this is
what you're looking for.

Like, here's all these blocks.

Let, let's, let's build it that way.

And obviously right now that's
just like content, but maybe in

the future that would be like admin
screen or, and, and things like that.

And I was like, wow, the concept
of blocks actually kind of

makes sense with this AI thing.

I think you're absolutely right.

It's just like if you're in the
past and you're backwards, compat

compatibility with everything.

I think AI is always gonna
be thinking about like, what

is the latest and greatest?

What is the fastest, what
is the most optimized?

And it's probably just gonna look
at it and go write these 12 lines of

JavaScript instead of these 80 lines of
PHP that you wrote like 15 years ago.

Vova: I think it's also another, again,
this is completely uneducated thinking.

I didn't think through this stuff, but

Matt: improvised,

Vova: that's largely what the
show is about, by the way.

But

Matt: very few people are good, good,
especially me, are thinking things

through when we're talking here.

Vova: So take it with a grain of soul.

But the way I think about
it, like WordPress and the

block editor are still in.

It's still not mature, right?

So it's still a premature, like move
by WordPress, automatic everything.

And now there is the ai,
and I know how hard it is to

focus on two things in Parler.

So on one hand we want to
be the best builder, right?

On the other hand, suddenly
we need to think ai.

What's more, more important?

Matt: Yeah.

Vova: Ask me ai probably, yeah.

Not the blog builder.

I don't know, man.

I'm happy I'm not in the
need to make those decisions.

Matt: Yeah.

Feldman freeman.com.

Miriam Schwab from Elementor
did a really personal address

to the press con audience.

during press conference talking
about what it's like to live and work

in Israel in a time of war, and it
was a really moving presentation.

I hope you are doing well.

I hope your family is doing well,
and, I don't envy the situation.

I don't know if it's the same as
you with Miriam, but, it sounds,

pretty, heart wrenching to be,
you know, trying to work and then.

Getting an app notification that
there's attacks happening and you

have to go into a bunker for 30
minutes and, and wait for things.

And, it, you know, it was very moving
presentation and you know, I just

hope that you and, and yours are,
healthy and safe through all of this.

Vova: I appreciate that.

Matt: mius.com.

You can check out Vva
and his team@mius.com,

podcast too.

Right?

Where, where can folks go for the podcast?

I.

Vova: Plugin fm.

Matt: That's

Vova: right.

Matt: Easy.

Now you gonna switch it to software fm

Vova: now that where No, that, that was a,
a perfect name because it's a play word.

Like when we started to, you know,
when we picked the name, obviously

it resonated with, you know,
work audience, but also it's a in

Matt: Yes.

Very good, very good.

Plugin, fm frees.com.

As always, it's a pleasure talking to you.

Vova: Thanks man.

It was a pleasure.