The WP Minute+

Matt: Ross Johnson,
welcome to the WP Minute,

Ross: Hey, Matt.

Thanks for having me on.

Matt: here to talk about all
things, why I still run a

WordPress agency in the year 2025.

Ross: I, I ask myself that
quite often, to be honest.

Matt: how long have you
been running your agency?

Ross: Quite a while.

I officially registered the, it
was a DBA initially in like 2005.

I think I had like one project
early 2005 that didn't go well.

Big surprise.

And then, really didn't pick it
back up until maybe early 2006,

so kind of pushing officially 20
years now, which is wild to say.

I'm feeling pretty old.

Matt: Nice.

Nice.

lots of has changed.

Lots of change.

Lots of have stayed the same.

And, you know, to, to like frame
that, like, of course like technology

has changed, like the politics
of of WordPress have changed.

competitors have come into the
space, like AI have changed.

But I would also argue that
like servicing customers, even

in the face of all that has.

Probably stayed kind of similar
to like when things started

air quotes 20 years ago.

And I wanna dive into, all of that.

But before we do, let's
give you the kudos first.

Where can folks go to find
more about you and your agency?

What's the best place,
that they should visit?

Ross: I think just, our website, which
is three period seven designs do co

three period seven designs at co.

So it's 3.7

designs and we officially
own seven designs that CO.

And three is a subdomain.

Matt: Nice.

Nice.

so 20 years ago, WordPress
was, was quite different.

you were servicing customers that
were, well, I'll let you define it.

Did you cast a wide net like I
did and just pull anything back

onto the boat that said yes.

And how did that like
change over time for you?

Ross: Yeah, pretty much.

You know, when you're starting off,
and I was pretty young, I was in my.

Kind of mid twenties at the time.

yeah, it was really basically
anybody who would say yes.

I was positioning myself more
as like a designer at the time.

even though I had a strong background
in technology and like my first

client was, was more or less a
website, like I was doing it.

And, and when you're doing it
in the nineties, they're like,

wow, you do the website too.

And I found I enjoyed that a lot
more than like troubleshooting email.

but I.

Yeah, it was more of a designer.

There's like the, the
direction I was going in.

but it ended up being
more and more web like.

That's where kind of based on my age
and getting into the market, like a

lot of the clients I was running into
wanted to hire more of like a bigger

professional design company compared to
a 20-year-old to do like their branding.

but they had no problem handing off
the website because that was new.

but yeah, to start it was
just anybody who said yes.

so it was all over the board.

And then, you know, it.

It's, it, it's, it's interesting how
it changes and, and everybody says you

should niche down, and we're kind of
only getting to that point now, but your,

your clientele always changes, right?

Like, I'm sure you experienced the
same thing, like the first people

you're talking to, even if you're
not picking an industry compared to

like who you are talking to, like a
year or two years, or three years.

Like their characteristics change.

And that's certainly, you know,
what we were experiencing.

Matt: Yeah, that that's, it's, it's
hard to prepare for, it's hard for

even for me to even like illustrate
the advice for an agency owner.

I kind of look at it as like, you do
80% of your, like, core work, let's

say, on a, on a given week or month,
but then like 20% of that time.

I think a good agency owner is also
like experimenting either with like

experimenting with a new kind of customer
or like a customer in a different

market or experi or experimenting with
like how you are adjusting your own

marketing and sales pitch and like
adjusting like, oh, maybe we should.

You know, we'll use Gravity
forms my employer as an example.

Like maybe we'll never
do this at home kids.

So like, maybe we should be thinking about
another plugin we should use in its place.

and you're like experimenting with
like another suite of tools, which

helps like find that customer.

Is, is that 80 20 rule,
does that stick with you?

Or how do you,

Ross: Yeah, I would say so.

yeah, generally that, I mean, that sounds
about right, like there's, things are

always changing and you know, one of
the mindsets we have over at the agency

is that, you know, nothing is perfect.

Like nothing.

Everything's basically our first draft.

So like everything's on
the table to, to change.

And it's almost like every time you
go through a project you should be.

Thinking about like what went well
and what didn't go well and trying

to identify places to improve
and that includes new tooling.

and you know, it's interesting as the,
the plugin market has really kind of

exploded and I guess over the last 10
years, it's not something new, but, some

of the plugins out there that were just
like the only go-to solution like Gravity

forums or Yost or something like that.

Now there's a lot of really good
competitors out there, and I.

You know, for us, we found for a long
time we're kind of using those same

plugins and then realizing we should
try some of these other ones because

they might be a better fit for our
clients or they might be more efficient.

and yeah, there is kind of that
element of figuring out how do

you do that experimentation?

Like are you doing it on
a client project site?

which you could do, but
there's certain risks to that.

But you could also kind of have your own
desk projects or some sort of process

for trying 'em out and evaluating them.

Matt: Yeah.

I'm fresh off the heels of a, a podcast
I just recorded with, mark Zamanski.

And we were trying to like, break down
the definition of, WordPress professional

because I think he, probably takes,
offense is probably not the right

word, but he, he wants folks to be
like, look, you can't just keep saying

like, you're not, you're a WordPress
professional if you only do these things.

And by these things like
commonly thrown around like.

If you're not using GitHub and
version control for your projects,

you are not a professional.

If you're using a page builder, you are,
you know, you're not a professional.

I see it as different, like maybe
tiers of professionalism, that, that

sort of, you know, that, that sort
of, unfold throughout your experience.

And let me just hit you with, with this,
with this GitHub and revision control

thing, because this was something
too, like when I started my agency.

It was just like, Hey, can
you build a website for me?

Yeah.

And you start like hacking together
WordPress, and then you discover

like themes and you're like, oh, like
this theme is a great starter theme.

But then you realize like a year
later, like, oh, these $69 themes

that you're buying from theme forest
don't come with any like true support.

And then you discover.

Let's say Genesis and Studio
Press and you're like, oh, there's

like a whole team behind this and
you, okay, like this makes sense.

And then you load onto that, right?

And then page builders come, right?

And then you'd realize like, oh my
God, I'm building a big project with

multiple people who are working on it.

I probably need this thing
called version control.

Right?

So it's just like this
long learning journey.

But could I wonder if you can unpack
like why people maybe point at

version Control as like that next
level of like being a professional?

Ross: Yeah, that's a good question.

I mean, I, I'm more along the lines of.

like my thought process is you are
like, I don't think we should exclude

anybody based on, you know, a very
specific skillset, especially if

we're calling using terms as broad
as like WordPress professional.

Like in my opinion, like if you're getting
paid to deliver value through WordPress,

like you're a WordPress professional,
like if you have some skills there,

it doesn't necessarily have to be that
you're a dev, like a developer who

writes code and uses version control.

I mean, these days I don't do a lot of.

Writing of code or using
GitHub or version control.

But I could still consider myself in
many ways, a WordPress professional.

or even if you were to look at like,
you know, people who have a WordPress

plugin business, a lot of 'em are not
developers who are using version control.

Are they still WordPress professionals?

so I, I think if I had to guess
as far as like, why does that

get picked out Singularity.

It, it might be that, a lot
of the evolution in WordPress

might have started with.

Developers, and so there is this sense
that you're not really using the platform

to its full extent if you're not kind
of a certain level in the weeds of,

you know, getting under the hood and
actually writing code and committing it.

Matt: Yeah, I think there's like this,
As I was explaining to, to mark on,

on the podcast, it's like a fe like
the whole like version control thing

is like a feature of a professional.

Ross: Right.

Matt: and generally it's associated with,
you know, that that higher ticket project,

'cause you're really not using like.

If you're building a, a quick five
page portfolio site for a local bakery,

you're probably not syncing it up to
GitHub and, and having a repo, right?

It's, it's, it's very easy to be like, oh,
that website over there is, you know, when

they call in for support, you know, your
team knows like, oh yeah, it's cadence.

You just log in and you change the font.

They want that change
the font to 18 point.

Okay, just log into cadence.

But then if you have like
an enterprise client who.

You've built like this bespoke app
for with WordPress integrated into

some like ERP system that they have,
and they ask for a support request.

Well, you're not, you're not messing
around with like undocumented

changes for that customer over there.

So you know, your support team is
gonna go well, let's just see like,

okay, we're gonna make a change and
we're gonna commit it to the repo and

it's gonna go to the testing site.

And then we'll send that testing
site link to the customer and

say, is this what you wanted?

Enterprise customer who
pays me a lot of money?

And they say, yes, that's it.

And you go, okay.

And you, you commit that branch to the
main branch of their production site.

Right?

And there's a whole process there, even
if it was just an H one that you changed,

Ross: Mm-hmm.

Right.

Matt: that's the process because that's
what, that's what they're paying you for.

having said all of that is, is.

Is that how you, box customers
in, in, in your agency world?

Like do you have like those smaller
clients and bigger clients, and are the

expectations in the process different?

Ross: Yeah, I would say to some
extent, I mean, it's, it's not as

big maybe as what you're describing,
those, those two examples.

but yeah, certainly we've got one client
that's like exactly like you described

where if we're gonna make any small
change, let's go through like multiple

steps of, you know, we're pushing it.

You know, we're working on a dev site.

We push it to staging, they have to review
it there, then it has to be accessibility,

tested this to be a security scan.

Then we can't deploy the code.

We put in a ticket and then they
deploy the code and then there's

like a testing process after that.

and then we have other clients
that, yeah, they're just like, do

it like they have the controls.

They could log in, they know how to
change it, but they, that's not what

they're, they want to do with their time.

And it's interesting, it's not
necessarily, I mean, for us, 'cause

we don't work with like a whole lot
of like really big enterprise clients.

like Fortune, you know,
500 sort of clients.

But, you know, there, there isn't like
a huge distinction between how much

they're paying and their expectations.

It's, it's more just, kinda how
their IT department seems to

like how much they care or wanna
have their hands in the process.

but that's just us personally.

But you know, to, to take a step back real
quickly, you were talking about, you know,

version control and those two different
examples and it occurs to me like it, it's

an interesting question of like, how do
we even define version control because,

you know, is using the backup system in
your managed hosting version control.

I mean, if you have a mostly database
driven website, like something

built in cadence, I'd argue it is.

So are we kind of narrowing down
that like you're not a professional

unless you're using like this very
specific type of version control.

And I think that's, you
know, pretty exclusionary.

I think there's a lot of professionals
out there doing great work who aren't

necessarily even need to do that.

Mm-hmm.

Matt: I ca I came up with like the three
C's of, professionalism, which, made

sense in my head when I came up with it,
but now it doesn't make as much sense as

when I say it out loud 10 minutes later.

but like the three C's of like,
like you care first and foremost,

like it, you know, presenting the
question of like, what makes up a

WordPress professional or I guess any
professional in, in, in my eyes is like.

You care about the work that
you're doing, number one, like.

That means that like, this is a pursuit.

we said the 80 20 thing before,
it's like, like that right there

is like the evolution of caring.

Like I care about the work that I'm
putting out because it satisfies me.

It satisfies, you know, others
and I'm constantly like trying

to make this thing better.

I care about the work.

Second, C is like, I
care about the customer.

Like I care that this work that I
am constantly refining this craft.

I'm constantly refining, like I'm putting
that to good use for the customer,

and they're asking me questions.

I'm answering it.

Can I solve this for you
with the stuff that I know?

Yes.

And if not, maybe you
should be saying no in that.

In that second phase and saying
like, Hey, customer, like what

you're asking for is not me.

Maybe I'll go find somebody
else for you, but, it's not us.

And that's like caring about the customer.

And then the third C is just like
you care about your own business.

Like you care about the sustainability
of your business so that all this hard

work you've put, you know, into learning
the first C when you're applying that to

caring for the customer, it's profitable.

And it's, it's there so you can survive.

So the business can, so the business
can be there to serve that customer,

not just now for the website, but a
year, two years, five years later.

I'm sure you have customers
that have been with you forever,

since you started your agency.

and that's an important thing.

That's how I've defined it.

Those three Cs, would you add to that
or do you see it a different way?

Ross: No, I think that
makes a lot of sense.

I, I wouldn't necessarily add to that.

I mean, the way I typically think about
it is, you know, if you are, yeah, I guess

if you're delivering value, And showing
up for the customer and you're reliable

and, helping them accomplish their goals.

It really doesn't matter about
like how you're going about it.

I, I think those things are what
define you as professional, not

necessarily like the process
or the tools or the techniques.

I.

Matt: Yeah.

Where do you land?

we were chatting before we hit record.

Where do you land on the
page builder landscape?

Is that something that you
incorporate into your workflow?

Is everything built, by hand?

crafted by hand?

in the north, central
North, of the United States?

How do you, use page builders for you?

Ross: Yeah, this is something that
like, like just in the last few

months, we're exploring shifting.

so for the longest time
everything was completely custom.

Like we had our own custom theme,
you know, that was a, iteration

of underscores and, you know,
before Gutenberg blocks we were.

Building mostly like
complex layouts with a CF.

And then a few years ago we decided
to lean into, you know, block-based,

layouts and started extending and
building our own custom blocks.

And we kind of got to a point maybe
last year, you know, it occurred to us

that why are we reinventing the wheel?

Like we're spending a lot of
time and money, both our client's

money and, and agency money, like.

Building and extending these tools,
these custom blocks, when there's

better solutions out there than what
we were building for much less like,

you know, generate press, for example.

You can get, generate blocks, I think
for like a hundred bucks a year, which

is like one billable, like less than one
billable hour, you know, for a client.

And the amount of time and effort
put into, you know, that solution

and the amount of, testing that's
been done compared to ours, it's

just like, it doesn't even compare.

So.

You know, with that, and also looking at,
I know a lot of people don't love, you

know, block themes currently, but like
that is a direction in other, platforms

that are gaining traction, like web flow.

Like personally, I see that as like
the future of building websites.

I think there's going to be less
and less hand coding websites and

layouts in CSS, just across the board.

Not just websites, but
even web applications.

Like AI at some point is gonna be
able to take a Figma file and like.

Or whatever we're using right at the
time, and just build the layouts itself.

Like we won't necessarily need
somebody to be doing that.

Matt: Right, right.

Do you remember how you, how did you
come about making that decision to

be like, we've got our own tooling.

We've been using it for, you
know, whatever, 10 years and now

we're gonna switch to a more,
what I'll call retail product.

I.

Ross: basically every single
project we quote, we went.

Way over budget.

and it didn't matter like how much,
how many hours we'd throw at it.

We'd just keep adding more and more and
more, and we'd always go over budget.

And it was almost always in the
development time and the QA time.

because the amount of things that
we would find that need resolution,

because everything was, you
know, custom built for that site.

So kind of after

Matt: You'd go over budget, you'd go over
budget on your own, on your own hours that

you, that you scoped out for the project.

Ross: Right,

Matt: You weren't taking it
over budget for your client.

You were just eating.

You were eating that cost.

Ross: Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And not like, a little bit like there
were times we'd be hundreds of hours over,

and so we kind of had to say like, well,
we need to do something about this, and.

You know, spent some time
kind of analyzing, you know,

what is contributing to this.

And part of it was, you know,
reinventing the wheel all the time.

And also, just not having the internal
time and an agency to like really

build our own product, so to speak.

Like we weren't gonna get into like the
custom page builder space because that's

so competitive that it just, you'd have to
dedicate like your entire company to that.

So that didn't make sense to like invest
it in it to that level, to get it to a

Matt: own page builders.

To make

Ross: Yeah, to make our own page
builders essentially to the place

where we wouldn't be losing money,
you know, every time we built a

site, like getting 'em to that level.

And so, yeah, we started looking at
other solutions and, you know, I did a

few tests for it to see like, how long
did it take me to build out, you know, a

layout that we did, that we custom built
using, you know, a various page builders.

And it was like 10% of the time,
you know, like it would take me

three hours compared to like 10, you
know, for, for what we did custom.

Matt: And, and what was the pro like?

What did custom look like?

'cause I think it's important that
folks who are just living in have,

we're in a whole new cohort, you and I,

Ross: Yeah,

Matt: or there's a whole new,
there's a whole new cohort now.

Like you and I are old.

we've been doing this for a while
and, and, and what we haven't.

I think what the mistake that a lot
of us have made that have been here

for a while is there's like a whole
new cohort of people who have, are

building and delivering websites who
consider, who are developers, consider

themselves developers in the sense that
you and I consider ourselves developers.

'cause we used to hand write code, in
Notepad plus plus, way back in the day.

but now there's a whole cohort that have
come in because of like Elementor, right?

And, and that, and,
and that's how they've.

Developed websites and
they are developers.

It's just like a different way
of developing WordPress websites.

and I'm saying all that because I
think people are like, oh, I, I did it.

We've been doing it custom.

A lot of people think that they're doing
it custom with Elementor, or page builder.

So what does custom look like?

Where you were like, oh man, we're
going 10, 20, a hundred hours

over doing it our custom way.

What, what did that look like?

Ross: Yeah, no, that's a
very important distinction.

because you can build completely
custom websites using Elementor,

any of these page builders, like,
that's what's great about 'em is

they don't really do a whole lot of
restricting, of what you're building.

You're not starting from something
and trying to iterate on top of it.

So what custom meant to us is,
yeah, we had this like very bare

bones theme, based on underscores.

So you install it and there's,
you know, no colors, barely any

typography, no layout, nothing.

And then on top of that, we had kind
of our own set of custom WordPress

blocks, including like some extensions
to some of the existing blocks.

So like we, we'd have, we'd add certain
settings to like the columns and, you

know, group blocks, stuff like that.

But, you know, essentially we're
looking at a blank page and rather

than, you know, configuring and
building the front end of the site.

Through the admin, like you
would with a page builder.

We're writing everything custom, you
know, like custom template files and

HTML and custom CSS, to build all
these layouts and in the front end.

so almost everything was done in code,
almost nothing, not almost nothing Over

time, like more and more got to be done in
the browser because we were using blocks.

but a vast majority of it
was actually writing code

versus using a user interface.

And I don't think using a user
interface means you're not a developer.

I mean, it might not, it might
mean you're not like a computer,

like a software engineer.

but I still think you're like, you're
developing a website, you're building it.

Matt: Yeah.

What did that mean?

What did the custom side,
what, what else was the expense

of the, of the custom side?

Was it, was it just writing the
code custom every time the customer

had the request, we realized,
man, we're way over budget.

With this internally, was it
collaborating like a develop?

Maybe you have a backend developer
who starts developing a feature.

Now that person goes off on vacation,
somebody else has to hop in and, and

pick up from where they left off.

And there was like, you know,
overhead there of catching up

with the project and, you know,
understanding like where the code was.

what other challenges did you face
with custom coding, other than just the

features that you were building, if any?

Ross: Yeah, certainly the more
developers that we'd have on a single

project, it would add a lot more hours.

I.

You know, we could potentially
move faster 'cause people could

be working on things concurrently.

there's a lot more
coordination that's needed.

so typically we'd have like a lead
developer who's kind of overseeing the

project and then they would delegate
components to the other developers.

But that requires a lot of
documentation and getting people

up to speed and filling in context.

And then there's a lot of coordination
to even discuss like, okay, I'm done

with this, you're ready to merge it in.

And then like code reviews
and that sort of thing.

So that certainly had a whole lot of time.

Also, and this is still a challenge that
we're gonna run into, but trying to.

I'm trying to kind of not
have what's called scope seep.

So you know, if you're not familiar
with it, scope creep is when the client

is asking for features or additional
work and you're not charging for 'em.

Scope seep is when you're
introducing it yourself.

And we had that, that issue quite a
lot where, you know, we're all really

passionate about what we do and we
kind of be working on something and

think like, ah, just be like that
much better if we did like this, you

know, additional, you know, little
bit of work on it and that can really,

It really snowballed really quickly.

Like, you know, we're working
on a custom login screen.

you know, there's so many components
potentially associated with that.

There's like the reset state, like, oh,
what do the error messages look like,

you know, What happens after you log in?

What's the page you land on?

So if you haven't scoped like this
kind of full end-to-end journey of

designing and building this custom
login workflow, it's more just

trying to skin the WordPress one.

You can spend a lot more time there
and it's great for the client.

and obviously you want to
overdeliver, but you can sync a lot

hours if you're not careful There.

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, yes, definitely have
done that, certainly in the past.

I'm wondering, I know this is kind
of early on in, in, you know, what

I'll call your experiment, but, I'm
wondering if this opens up the custom

side as an opportunity for the business.

In other words, now that you've kind of
like found some efficiencies with, Using

an off the shelf solution, which is weird
to say in WordPress in the year 2025.

But

Ross: Yeah.

Matt: as you, you find, you
find these efficiencies, with

the off the shelf solution.

I wonder if now you can also
like go to the customer and

say, Hey look, here's the price.

and in this price we're using
this air quotes framework.

We're using this pre
already made framework.

We've done it before in
the past, and these are the

things that we can do with it.

But as soon as you try to like break
that, either with scope creep or your

like, cool new features that we can
build for this, it has to be custom.

And now custom is, you know, maybe
where, where you were at before, but

like 20%, 30% more, on the, on the
line item because now you've realized,

oh God, when we go this route,
we're generally that 20 to 30% over.

As we've been in the past, so I'm,
I'm curious if you're gonna look at

that as a new opportunity if you've
not already started doing that.

Ross: Yeah.

Yeah.

That is exactly our expectation.

I mean, the type of projects that
we take on, usually there is some

custom development that's needed,
like from a backend logic perspective,

like we're working on a project now,
that needs like a very particular

membership management, workflow that.

Like WooCommerce memberships
isn't a good fit.

Some of the other ones that we're
looking at, like, it just has to

work exactly how they need it.

So that's something we're gonna
build custom and most of our

projects, there's something like
that, but it, it's gonna be, yeah,

that much more narrow window and.

Because we are still thinking we're
gonna do like a block based page builder.

We do expect to have like
custom blocks here and there.

Like we'll still need to design
something that doesn't fit in, like

the off shelf, you know, block based
page builders that are out there.

but you know, the real opportunity
that we're, we're looking at as far

as opening up for us is, being able
to sell, more marketing services.

So in like 2018, we became more
of a, like a full service digital

marketing agency, which was like
really transformational for the agency.

'cause we're, we stopped chasing
like the one big ticket projects

and started chasing retainers.

And as far as like scaling an
agency, like predictable revenue

is, you know, so important.

so because we can spend less upfront on
the website, then we can pitch them on,

okay, let's spend some additional money
on getting the right people to your

site, driving leads, driving conversions.

I.

And our experience is once you
get people into a retainer,

they really see the value.

And even if they only plan on doing
it for a year to see how it goes,

like they tend to stick around.

Matt: I am curious if you think, this
is a great, segue 'cause this is what

I was gonna kind of lead into next,
is, I'm wondering if you're seeing the

front end of a project and not the,
not the literal and the technical term,

like, like front end versus back end,
but like the front, front house of a,

of accepting a project like scope it.

Quote it, it's whatever, $20,000 and then
it's, here's the three payment milestones.

Like, I'm wondering if you're seeing
that kind of like go away because

you're experiencing efficiencies,
with tools around WordPress.

Maybe the clients are starting to
understand like maybe clients now in

the year 2025 have gone through a few
iterations of their website, so they kind

of know what they're looking for now.

Like they're not.

Dragging you down with a bunch of like
discovery and scope stuff anymore.

So I'm wondering if you're seeing
a world where, I mean, it's gonna

be a startup fee and then a monthly
retainer to build websites for

folks or build solutions for folks.

Ross: Yeah, you know, I'd, I'd
like to see go in that direction.

and there was a, a period of time where
we're, we're really trying to push this

idea of, HubSpot actually came up with
it, but like a launchpad website, meaning

like the minimum amount of work you need
to do to get a website up, like a, a

new version of website off, like, you
don't necessarily have to rebuild the

whole thing and have it launched day
one, but like, what's something better

we can get up quickly and then you
move into a retainer to iterate on it.

Just every month and kind of get
it to where you want it to be.

we as an agency struggle
with that for that, the same

reasons that the scope seep.

Like we had a hard time of like
moderating ourselves and not

just delivering something that
they're like, yeah, I'm good.

I don't, we don't need to
spend any more money on it.

but I do think that's, that's
a much better approach.

you know, what we've
been doing lately that's.

I, it kind of works to solve the, the
same issue is discovery first projects

where, you know, we're not trying to quote
the entire project all at once because

a lot of times you just guess wrong.

Like, there's just not enough time.

The typical sales process to
get all the details right.

so we're, we're kind of breaking off
that first portion of, you know, the

discovery, the strategy, and sometimes
all the way through the design concepts.

So we have a very clear
picture of what we're building.

we'll do functional specifications
and that sort of thing, if there's

any custom logic that's needed.

And then, then quote for the
rest, which gives the client,

typically a better solution.

you don't have to pad the price
as much, you don't have as

much issues as running over.

and that's been working really
well for both us and our clients.

Matt: Yeah, it can't be, you know,
understated enough that, the.

Recurring revenue for an agency
is critical for, you know, for

sustainability of the business.

Again, going back to my three Cs, like,
you, you should be thinking about that.

you know, again, not just from like,
I mean it is, but so not just like

how much money can we make, or like,
what else can I sell this customer?

But it, it is for, you know, that.

I've always said agency life is
one paycheck away from bankruptcy.

Somebody else had said that to
me like, you know, years ago, you

know, because depending on like how
you've structured the agency, like

if you don't have that, that runway,
that's something that you know.

December, right?

Holiday season.

Nobody's saying yes to a contract.

No one's answering your emails.

people all have time off.

Like your own team wants
time off, obviously.

And it's like the worst month, like
November, December, you're just like,

you're operating at the halfway point.

This is how I was.

And, and maybe I'm wrong and maybe
that's why, I couldn't sustain,

you know, the size team that I had.

You know, you're halfway through the
summer, you're like, okay, how are we,

what are we projecting for holiday season?

For that downtime of like no
projects and, and no revenue in,

you start selling for the next year.

So you start selling for, okay, as soon
as we come back from holiday season,

who's giving us, you know, the down
payments on the new projects, you know,

slated to go, you know, the next year.

And, you know, that was
a super stressful cycle.

I'm sure it still is a stressful
cycle for people and that's

why that recurring revenue is.

So important.

And sometimes it can be like, ga
gamified, I think is the, is is is a

word that I, I might throw out there.

Like, everyone's like, you gotta
get that recurring revenue.

Buy my $97 a month course
to tell you how to do it.

And you're just like,
okay, what am I doing?

Like, but there's like a
vital reason for it, you know?

I dunno if that makes any sense or that
was like a bit of a soapbox moment,

but that's like, it's a tough thing
to like un make people understand.

Ross: yeah.

Absolutely.

I, I think you're really gonna struggle.

It's to scale your agency
and have a team on payroll.

if you're, if you don't have
recurring revenue for all the reasons

that you say, like you're just.

You know, chasing the next big
project, hope that it comes

in and that you have enough.

And if, if one of 'em doesn't
work out, then you're in trouble.

and I mean, I, you should have, you
know, some reserves, like, I think

there's some estimates of like three
to six months of runway and like

a line of credit's a good idea.

But those are all things you
don't want to have to tap into.

So really focusing on that reoccurring
revenue, even if it means, you

know, having a bit of a loss in
the beginning to get them into that

reoccurring, you know, retainer.

I think that's worth it.

and I guess last thing I'll say on
that is, you know, a lot of times when

people, especially in the WordPress
space talk about reoccurring revenue,

they, they say like, oh, sell site care.

And like, you know, maintenance and,
and backups and updates, which like,

I think is great, like start there.

But if you look at the prices of those,
like maybe you might charge a couple

hundred dollars and that's maybe on the
high end, like how many clients do you

have to get at that price point to hire
like one person to manage it for you.

It's a lot.

So it need to be thinking about
higher value services that clients are

gonna pay and get ROI on every month.

Matt: that's a fantastic,
yeah, that's a fantastic point.

And I, and I think that's like what I
was getting at is a lot of people will

just be, will throw that around, right?

And it's just like, oh, it's oh so easy.

And it's like, yes, and, and, and yes,
it is, you know, a good first step,

but you should, you know, trust me

Ross: right.

Matt: as you're scaling it, you
want to think, you know, bigger,

Actually leads me to my next question,
sort of in the back half of this

conversation is like, how, how has
finding customers changed, if at all?

I assume referrals still top of the
food chain for, for, for agency life

as it is with like a lot of things
in, in, in the real world referrals.

But how have you adjusted to
find new customers and like

even reposition yourself?

Ross: Yeah.

I mean, finding customer acquisition
I think is always a challenge with an

agency because there's just so many
agencies out there, and I think it's,

it's gotten harder over the years, like
we did a whole lot of local business like.

Outside of referrals.

A lot of our business was local for a
long time, basically up until Covid.

And then it seemed like once Covid
hit and everyone went virtual, there

was kind of this universal shift in
thinking where it's like, we don't need

to work local anymore because we're
not even gonna meet you in person.

And it seemed like that
hasn't really changed much.

You know, so for us, you know,
we've been fortunate that our

referral network is really strong.

strategic partnerships have
always been really huge for us.

So finding other agencies or services,
that complement yours and referring work

back and forth, that's a good way to get
your foot in the door with a lot of work.

and then just having a really
strong network in general.

Which might be easier or harder
these days, but like the more people

you know virtually or in person,
the, the more likely they are

to know somebody who needs help.

And so we've gotten a ton of work just
sustained based on people I've met like

10 years ago, 15 years ago, that are
still connected with me on LinkedIn.

And they see me post now and again.

So they have a project come
up and they think of us.

the other way you can go about
it in, in talking to other agency

owners is really just focus on.

a lot of outbound sales, like,
you know, we're more waiting for

clients to reach out and come to us.

You know, we do some proactive
marketing, but, you know,

we're not doing cold outreach.

We're not doing a lot of,
trying to connect with people

and discuss their issues.

It's more like waiting for
people to raise their hands.

but if that's not working, I think
you really have to start hustling and

getting in contact with people and
asking for referrals and all that.

Mm-hmm.

Matt: Yeah, I think, and we'll transition
to talking about AI now, but I think

that, you know, ev there's obviously
many schools have thought of this.

It's like, it's gonna put us
out of business, you know,

everyone's gonna gonna do it.

It's launch their own
websites, things like that.

I'm trying to look at it as a way to.

To find efficiencies first and foremost.

because, you know, you can't,
you can barely predict it out

one year, let alone five years.

So very difficult to, to
make those adjustments.

you know, in your own business today,
based on like a one year to five

year predict prediction with ai.

But what I know now is like there
are some efficiencies to be had.

Are you leveraging those
efficiencies in the business?

Most importantly, have you heard
from your clients at all saying,

Hey, can we incorporate ai or,
here's what I'm doing with ai.

If at all in in your business.

Ross: Yeah, we're definitely
incorporating it in our business.

for efficiencies, like you said, like
where we just started using a code

editor that has ai, built into it.

certainly all the marketing activities
that we do, we'll do a lot of AI to

help speed that up like research and.

Idea generation, that sort of thing.

and, and yeah, I think a good
number of our clients use AI also.

I mean, we typically work with marketing
departments, so like, our client is like

a marketing manager or a marketing leader,
and they're pretty clued into AI as well.

So they're using it kind of
in similar ways that we are.

You know, as far as, you know, where
we are now, where we might go, like

the way I see it in the next maybe
year or so is, like you said, there's

a lot of efficiencies to be gained.

basically the people who figure out
how to, how to leverage AI the best,

are gonna benefit the most from it.

Like, I don't see it
replacing anybody quite yet.

where it goes long term,
I'm not exactly sure.

'cause like in theory, it's gonna
get to a point where it can.

Build design, write all the
copy a website for you, you

know, pretty much do everything.

But if it's doing that for everybody,
then what, what makes the difference

between website A and B and
that's, that's not exactly Sure.

how that shakes out.

It seems like there still would need to
be some humans in there working with it

to make sure that it's, it's different.

Matt: Yeah, I think, this is just
my prediction, but like I know at

least in what I'll call my, my side
hustle, the here at the WP Minute

and just like thinking as like a.

Content publisher, somebody
who's never done any, like, I've

never done any content for SEO.

Like there's never been an SEO strategy.

I've never been like, you know
how I'll get more readers to

my website into my newsletter.

I will write 17 most popular, you
know, slider plugins for WordPress.

And listen, I say that also understanding
that I have friends who have made a

lot of money doing that kind of thing.

but as a publisher in
this day and age, like.

You can't have, you can't
just have a podcast.

You can't just have a
YouTube channel anymore.

You have to have, it has to
be omnichannel, it has to be,

social, it has to be a podcast.

It has to be YouTube, it
has to be the newsletter.

It has to be the blog, it has
to be community around that.

And it has to be like events.

It's like seven things now
I think in order to survive.

and I think like on the agency
side, when you start to like

democratize a lot of this stuff.

Say like, oh, now I can just do this with
AI and it'll solve this pain point for me.

The agency owner has to think of
like, how can I bring as much human

into this solution as possible?

And that's not even just, I think
in the, like the short term, it

might just be like, how do I relate
with this customer, more human?

And how do I do like more white
glove approach for this customer?

But like, do you also live in
your customer's world like.

You might have to get, not, not you
specifically, but agency owners might

have to get much more, vertical with
like, where do you, where do the

events that your customers go to, how
can you live and consume that life

as much as they do in order for you
to be able to sell them a website now

or get them to like sell a contract?

I mean, you could argue that you kind
of have to do that today ish, but you

almost have to be like an, like an
influencer in their space just to get.

Just to get the job in the future, to
stand out from, you know, the row of

people who are just doing this stuff,
just like with AI and pumping it all out.

Ross: Right.

Matt: that's a crazy prediction,
but, you know, it could be the

unscalable thing is what's gonna work

Ross: Yeah.

Matt: in the, in the long run.

I.

Ross: Yeah, I can certainly see that.

I mean, like right now we're doing,
we do a lot of work and we've

worked with 'em for a long time.

A company that does protein mass
spectrometry, I think is how you

pronounce it, which, like I have a very
high level understanding of what it is.

It's like analyzing proteins for research.

But I couldn't tell you much beyond that.

And right now it works.

It's fine.

You know, like we can do enough
where we can, you know, help

them grow their business.

But I could see a place in the future
where they're only gonna want to talk

to somebody who really understands that
deeply, attends the same events, you

know, knows how to talk to scientists
the same way, that sort of thing.

so I could certainly see it,
it going in that direction.

Matt: Yeah.

coding with ai, yes or no?

Something that you're trusting,
not trusting, experimenting with.

Where do you land on that?

Ross: Yeah, we're, we're
actively experimenting.

I mean, certainly there's
some small, things we've had

pretty much just written by ai.

I mean, obviously you have to do testing
and, and it's in my experience at,

at this point, like you have to know.

Coding, like what you're
coding into a certain point.

Even just to get it to produce
like the code that works.

like I was having it write some
JavaScript for like a HubSpot

landing page and you know it, even
having it write that JavaScript I.

Took a fair amount of work in telling
it what wasn't working and what

to look at and like those details.

So I don't think it's quite there yet.

But again, it's like,
it's a force multiplier.

Like the places we are using it,
it's speeding things up quite a bit

and it seems like the quality of
the code is only getting better.

Matt: Yeah.

Ross: And like you can
think about the future.

I mean, this is what kind of, what excites
me about it is like the AI at some point.

If it doesn't already, we will know and
understand every single line of code

that's in something like WordPress.

So its ability to write the
most efficient code is gonna far

surpass anything that we can do.

Matt: Yeah.

The, yes.

I, I, I agree that, that we're
gonna get to, to that point.

I have a little bit of doubt.

On how efficient we think it's
going to be based on like the

pace that we've seen improvement.

Like I think we went
from like, I don't know.

And listen, I'm not a, some kind
of like AI absolutist or some,

you know, somebody who pretends to
have like cover the space deeply.

but certainly have been like
really pushing myself into it

for the last six to eight months.

Like the rapid de de development
from like Chachi Petite version one.

To where we are today.

Like it went pretty fast.

Like one to two was like mind blowing.

Two to three was mind blowing.

Three to four was, it was mind
blowing, but maybe just not as much.

And now it's starting like to shrink,
it's the iPhone effect, right?

iPhone ten, eleven, twelve,
thirteen, fourteen, fifteen.

You're like, you're looking at
like iterative improvements,

you know, year after year.

And if you're just looking at
it in a yearly thing, you're

like, eh, not much changed.

But if you looked at it in like a
four year window, you're like, wow.

There was like.

A big gap of, of improvements.

Because I'll tell you, man, I've
been building, just as an aside,

I've been building a lot of things
with ai, but I've been messing around

with building my own podcast player,
you know, web-based podcast player.

And, it will just destroy
code in the matter of seconds.

Like I'm, I'm using Cursor the other
day and like it gets to this point of

complexity, and maybe this is where now I
have to be a better like cursor developer.

Which is weird, like you have
to be like a better cursor slash

prompter to improve in these areas.

If you don't know, like the code,
where you almost start thinking, maybe

I should just learn the code, man,

Ross: Right.

Matt: May, maybe I should just
learn the code and, I wouldn't have

to do what I'm doing over here.

But, you know, I won't bore
you with like the complexities.

But, in order to access, the
podcast, the Apple Podcast, API

for core's policies, you must.

Have these on, I'm using
CloudFlare workers, right?

To make the API API request
sanitize the API request and

send it back to the React app.

Okay.

Ross: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And you'll just be like,
like something won't work.

And I will say, like, I just had this the
other day where suddenly like thumbnails

weren't loading for like, cores, errors.

CORS for those of you have
never heard of that before.

And so I'm like, Hey, we gotta debug this.

the images aren't loading.

And, so I says, okay, I'm gonna
go in, I'm gonna debug this

in your CloudFlare worker.

And if you're, if you've used
cursor before, it'll show you.

The lines of code is changing per
request as it's like going through

as the AI agent is going through.

And all of a sudden I see my CloudFlare
worker file say minus 600, right?

Which is minus 600 lines of code, right?

And then it says like,
and then it says plus two.

And I was like, whoa, whoa.

I have to like hit the stop
button and be like, and then

like literally prompt it and say.

What are you doing to the worker file?

You have removed everything
from the worker file.

You cannot do that.

I need you to debug just the images,
and then it just comes back and

it says, oh yeah, you're right.

I, I was just testing it
for like, literally like it

says, oh yeah, you're right.

I was just testing it for the images.

let's add the code back.

And it's just like, what
the hell were you doing?

In what world was it right to remove
all of that functionality in the.

In just to get this image thing right,
just figure out the image thing.

Don't destroy everything else.

which I guess, you know, there are
ways to do this in Cursor that says

like, don't make any like impactful
changes, but then what does that do?

Does it add like a ton of overhead to
your code that you don't know about?

So it's a long rant of saying like,
yeah, these things are pretty cool.

I can make some pretty cool things
really quickly, but then a lot of

this stuff breaks down, once you
get to a certain size of AI project.

Ross: Yeah, I mean that's been my
exact experience as well, like,

and that's why I was saying it.

You still kind of have to know what
it's doing to point it in the right

direction and give it the right prompts.

Because I've experienced
the exact same thing.

Like one small thing isn't working,
I tell 'em it's not working and it

completely changes everything and
breaks like three other things.

I'm like, no, no, no, no.

Like here's the issue and the more
descriptive I can be about the issue

and kind of point it in the right
direction, the more effective it is.

but yeah, using it right now to completely
build an app without some technical

knowledge of the programming language
and what needs to be done, I think would.

It, you're really gonna struggle.

I don't know how
effective that's gonna be.

Matt: Yeah.

One last thing about the AI stuff and
we'll, we'll, wrap up this conversation

about starting and surviving in an
agency world and why would you do it?

ha has a, I was talking to an agency
owner the other day, a really well known

agency owner, and he was, look, and,
you know, he made a remark and said, I

could replace my entire marketing team
with some of the stuff that AI is doing.

Today, true or false, do you think you
can just replace a whole marketing team

and at least for marketing a WordPress
agency, do you see any, efficiencies or

anything to be gained by leveraging AI
to help us, get found for our clients?

Ross: Yeah.

Well, I, I, I'm skeptical that you could.

Remove an entire team at this stage
and still produce quality content.

I think we're, we're still at a point
with like a lot of the content or

like what's being put out from AI
where it's, it's pretty noticeable.

like I can really tell if something's
wr been written by chat GBT

unless it's been like rewritten.

but certainly I could see
it pre preventing you from

having to hire people like.

You could probably get more
done with fewer people at,

at least from my experience.

I mean, I could be completely wrong.

They, they might have found some
better way to use it than me.

but from my experience, yeah,
I, I think it, it's a good,

again, a force multiplier, like
you can get a lot more done.

I.

And kind of touching on one of the
things you were talking about earlier

about like how many channels you have
to really be engaged in these days.

I think that's a really good
use case for AI and marketing.

I forget who coined the term,
but somebody said that SEO is no

longer search engine optimization.

It's search everything everywhere.

Optimization.

Like you kind of need to be at
work 'cause people are looking

for information everywhere.

And I think that's one of the places
that AI is really, really effective.

Like you can create one original piece
of content with the assistance of ai.

Like as long as it's not creating
it, you know, completely for you.

And then it's really good about turning
that into other pieces of content.

like if you haven't seen the, the
recent, SOAR enhancements from OpenAI.

I mean, its ability to create
like an infographic is incredible.

So like, just feeding it like a prompt
based on your content and it producing

infographic that you can put on, you know,
social is, a really good use case for it.

Matt: Yeah, yeah.

Ross Johnson, thanks
for hanging out today.

where can folks go to say thanks?

Where can they find you on the web?

Ross: again, I think just,
our website's a good spot.

3.7

designs do co.

I'm not on X or blue sky these days, as
much, but you can find me at LinkedIn.

Happy to connect with any
other WordPress professionals.

Just search for Ross Johnson and find the,
the one Ross Johnson that works for 3.7

designs.

Matt: if you wanna find other WordPress
professionals, join the WP Minute Slack.

You know, you can do it for
as little as five bucks.

join the WP Minute slack,
the wp minute.com/support.

Join other WordPress professionals.

They're help support.

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With our, April webinars, headed
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I agree.

That'll be a webinar for members only.

and then we will have other
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year, the wp minute.com/support.

Thanks for watching.

Thanks for listening.

We'll see you in the next episode.