The WP Minute+

Toby: Hi, this is Toby Kreins and Kurt
Nan in the yet to be named podcast here.

it's four agencies by agencies, and we're
gonna talk through some of the experiences

and stories that we've, gone through.

Kurt, how long have you been at it?

Kurt: I got my WordPress username in 2004.

Toby: That's awesome.

so

Kurt: yeah, then, and looking
at your background, it seems

fairly similar, you know?

Mm-hmm.

We, we both come from that same era.

And, I was in the automotive business,
built websites as a hobbyist.

When you work in automotive,
you work 13, 14 hour days.

Your head is still wired
when you get off of a shift.

And I kind of used this internet thing as
like a distraction, like maybe to go to

sleep at night or something like a hobby.

And, I started playing with HTML stuff
and Macromedia, before it was Adobe.

Oh yeah.

And was playing with all that stuff.

2000, 2000, you know, three, four.

Then I found WordPress.

And by 2007 I was making
websites for other people.

By 2008, ano Nomas was born.

And, I went, I went to work corporately
for a while as, as a learning and,

and learning and management developer.

But yeah, I'm right back at it,
back at the agency game since 2020.

That's awesome, man.

Did you do flash back in the day?

Oh dude, flash was the
bomb gig Getty, man.

I know, man.

The website would open up and things
would move around and music would play

and, and you know, people that worked
in a cubicle used to hate flash websites

'cause you'd play 'em automatically.

And I thought it was the coolest
thing ever, but, apparent.

Apparently, apparently people that run the
internet thought that that had to go away.

Toby: Yeah, yeah.

I know, man.

I used to run the Flash user
group and it was the greatest

software ever invented and.

And here we are, WordPress,

Kurt: and here we're the second

Toby: greatest software
ever invented using

Kurt: the greatest software ever

Toby: invented.

so we're gonna talk in this podcast
about our stories with agencies.

you've been at Manana doing
manana, Noma for a long, long time.

I've been doing Mighty Mo for a long time.

I'm just gonna throw out a
question here to kick things

off and we'll see where it goes.

this is like about, client
retention, but not in the usual way.

'cause I've been wondering like.

how do you keep clients engaged
for the next project, even when

you're not doing much for 'em?

Or even maybe you're doing maintenance,
but maintenance is so like, you

know, here's a PDF autogenerated.

Maybe, maybe I did a little work,
and, you know, so how do you line up

that next contract with the client?

Kurt: You're gonna hate me
because I'm gonna take it in a

completely opposite direction.

Go for it when, and so this was something
I started doing as M Nomas as a startup,

working outta Albuquerque, New Mexico in
the Economic Development Center's offices.

I had a ton of unengaged
unplugged in clients.

I just had just 'cause every
time a new business started in

Albuquerque, they would send
'em to me to get a website made.

And these businesses either
made it or they didn't.

And so I ended up with like all this half
done or recently done, but never executed.

You know, project work,
and I made up my mind.

I said, you know what I'm gonna do?

I'm gonna make a list of all my clients.

I'm gonna take the bottom
third for revenue and activity.

And I'm just gonna fire them.

And I literally just sent out really
nice emails that said, Hey, Manano,

NOMAS is in an expansion mode.

We're bringing on new clients.

unfortunately won't be able to
service your accounting no longer.

Here's a list of five people
locally that we would recommend

that you could go to, to maybe get
your work performed or maintained.

And people said, I was crazy.

People said I was stupid.

Pe my wife had a heart
attack with that idea.

She was like, oh my God, you're
gonna, th you know, a third of the

business, you're just gonna throw away.

That year my business doubled,
like the revenue doubled and the

margins went through the roof.

I mean, my margins
weren't great back then.

But at the time I thought, oh my God,
I can't believe I'm making this kind

of money, doing this kind of work.

And so I did it every year.

Every year I fired 30% of my
clients and every year I experienced

some kind of growth 'cause I
brought on better quality clients.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Now, your wife was said 30%, but it, it
sounds like it was 30% of clients very

different from 30% of the business, like

Kurt: Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

And I, I'd say as, as
we continued to grow.

The scope of our projects
obviously continued to grow, right?

So now we do a lot of membership,
e-commerce, e-learning centered websites.

And so now we have people that are
kind of in it for the long haul.

but what that means is that the clients
that came with us for like a brochure

website, you know, we might do the hosting
and the maintenance for them, you know,

for their $79 a month or whatever that is.

And then if we don't do
any other work for them.

Then that's kind of it
outta sight, outta mind.

We just, you know, we have our team manage
the, the hosting account and that's it.

do I still fire clients like that?

Not as aggressively as I used to.

Mm-hmm.

But it got me where I'm at.

Toby: Yeah.

How many people are in your team?

Kurt: We use people all over the globe.

And so, I like to say we're
about 10 people strong.

you know, and then of course you
read about, you know, web dev studios

and 10 Up and, and these really
big agencies, and you're, you're

like, oh, wouldn't that be awesome?

And then there's another part of
me that says I'm 57 years old,

I don't want those headaches.

Toby: Right, right.

Kurt: Yeah.

The part that I struggle with.

See, I'm gonna go off on another tangent.

Toby, this isn't good.

You shouldn't be asking me questions
that I can just, you know, my a,

DD kicks in, but I want to use.

I wanna use freelancers in the states.

I want to use people where
English is their first language.

I want to use people that I know I could
add value to as a fellow American, right?

Like, like, like I want
to be that patriot.

but I can't tell you how many times
I've gone to post status or I've gone

within my own circles and I've said,
Hey, I've got this, small project.

I need some customization done for
this WooCommerce store, or I need, this

custom page laid out with custom CSS and.

It's stuff that, could I figure it out?

I probably could, but it'd be smarter
for me to have someone else do it.

And I get these things back, like,
oh, well one page custom CSS,

you're, you're looking about $3,200.

And I, and I go, and then I got a guy
in Vietnam that's like, sure thing, Mr.

Ana, and have that done for you.

Tomorrow it'll be $80.

Toby: Right.

Kurt: And it's like, oh, please
help me make this make sense.

Toby: Yeah.

Kurt: You know, and that's like,
in some cases I'm not even charging

$3,200 for the whole project, right.

Let alone that one page.

Toby: Yeah.

I

Kurt: actually think like,

Toby: you know, with all the tariff talk
recently, like if I were president, I

would tariff overseas labor immediately.

That would be my first tariff order.

'cause like, 'cause you that would
immediately bring all the work back.

Like right now, like so
much work's going abroad.

You know, and, I would like you,
like I would love to hire locally.

I would like to hire everybody in
Minneapolis, and I know some people,

even affordable people, but they're
nowhere near as affordable as.

Other countries

Kurt: and, and I do crazy things.

I, I'm sure in a, in a business only,
you know, spreadsheets discussion.

There, there's organizations called 20
clubs in the automotive and motorcycle

space where, you know, groups of I.

Business owners get together and beat
each other up about their spreadsheets and

their margins and their numbers and stuff.

And so if we did the same thing
in the WordPress world, could you

imagine getting together with 10
other agency owners and being like,

how many websites did you make?

How many clients is that spread over?

how many pages was each website?

And you really drove down through
like key performance indicators of

each project and then said, what did,
what was, so what's your labor rate?

Right?

So what, what's your,
what is your agency rate?

And then there's a really cool term in
the service world for automotive and power

sports called the effective labor rate.

Effective labor rate is how much money
did you really collect per hour, right?

Mm-hmm.

So you, maybe you bill the job out at
$10,000 and you thought it was gonna

take 200 hours to do it, but it really
ended taking 600 hours to do it.

Well, you take the 10 grand divide by
600, that's your effective labor rate.

Mm-hmm.

And so if we really had like 20 club
organizations of WordPress agencies and

really drove our, our KPIs in that way, I
think it would be really, really shocking

to see what people are working for.

Toby: Yeah, that's true.

I also think like the, the other
side of the market is without

any like, governmental controls.

Like if we, if ev, if all of us
had, full-time or just US workers,

our prices would have to go up.

And so our, would our customers
even wanna hire us anymore if

we were like priced up there?

Whatever there is, you know,

Kurt: well, but see, that's, that's
that whole other conversation, right?

And that's why is it that.

President Obama came out with the
Affordable Care Act, and then they

hired his wife's college roommate
to make the website for that

project and paid her $93 million.

Like in what planet is a medical
directory website worth $93 million?

na: Yeah.

Kurt: You know, I can't tell you
how many times I've stumbled into

a, a package or a deal, or a, a
contract, and it's been a referral.

And it just comes to me like,
oh yeah, this is, we've already

pre-bid this at $52,000.

And I'm thinking to myself,
oh, crud, you know, I probably

would've bid that at 26 grand.

now in the end for some reason it
always ends up working out that that

was probably the right dollar amount.

but I've got other projects I've done for
8,000, 5,000, 4,000 and you know what,

somehow Toby, it always seems to work out.

Toby: Yeah.

Well I think that's like, like, That's
how, how you last 18 years in the

business or you know, in your, you know,
like you've been around what, 15 years?

Something like that.

eight 18.

I dunno, but whatever.

it's like, like yeah, you
have to figure it out.

You know, like as we talk about like
content for people who are listening

who might be agency owners or
freelancers looking to like, scale up.

That's the game.

Like did you make it or did
you not make it to next year?

Kurt: I always.

It sounds so trite.

May, maybe it's the believer in me.

Maybe it's too much time at church,
but I have successfully navigated

every obstacle and temptation
that's come my way in life so far.

You know?

And then that's just the
way it is with business too.

It, it's, there's so many times where I'm
like, ah, man, I should just go get a job.

And then I gotta tell you over like
the last three years, Toby, I have

become emotionally unemployable.

Yeah, there's, I live in Hutchinson,
Kansas, and there is a job in Hutchinson,

Kansas right now that multiple people
have tagged me on Facebook for,

like, you need to apply for this.

You would be amazing at this job.

You would, this city would be
crazy to not hire you for this job.

And then I think about it, I go, I
should probably, I should probably,

I should probably apply for that job.

And then I think about it and I go.

Answer to a board of directors,

na: right?

Kurt: Yep.

Hours in the office, events after
hours away from family, right?

Travel to other cities for
events, representing something

that's not my own, right?

And, and then I'm just
like, man, forget it.

Like I'm not signing up for that.

I'll volunteer and I'll help that.

Whoever takes that job, whoever gets
that job, I will volunteer and I will

help them with projects and events.

But I'm not gonna take that job.

Toby: It's a weird thing.

there's, I, I was collaborating.

I was brought on with a, a startup and,
so I've, I've owned my small business

forever, you know, like for 18 years now.

But let's say year 13, they came
in and they needed CTO basically.

and they ended up having like.

Legitimate hockey.

It was just like this weird scenario,
hockey stick growth where like,

they ended up selling for 200
something million like a year after

I left the company or something.

but what I learned, like the reason I
left is 'cause I was no longer a fit.

Like I was fine when it was me, three
owners, one or two other teammates.

But as soon as we started
growing, I just got so tired and

anxious, like probably tired.

'cause of the anxiety of like.

This, infrastructure that
we, that I helped build.

Like, but just like, like, ah,
I don't even like this work.

Yeah.

You know?

Wow.

I was really good at
building something I hate.

Right.

And it's funny when, when, I ended
up getting fired from that job.

'cause I, I was kind of like, a
cantankerous little jerk at one point.

And, I was on the, the phone on a
Google meet with the, the owner and

the another owner, the, the main owner
and the, you know, secondary owner and.

And they're like, well, how
do you wanna handle this?

And I was like, I told 'em like,
just do me the dignity of firing

me using the process that I built.

It's like, okay, at
least fire me with my own

Kurt: tools.

Right?

So they did.

It was great.

C corporately speaking, one
of, so I love power sports.

I, I've been in the
motorcycle industry forever.

I raced motorcycles for 20 years.

I just love bikes and I ended up getting
the job of a lifetime and I got hired

away from my agency in Albuquerque by
Ducati North America, and they put me in

charge of their whole training program.

And, and before I knew it, I was
traveling the world and doing things

that I never thought I'd get to do.

Like it was just an amazing opportunity.

But what people don't recognize
is even though almost everybody

recognizes the name Ducati.

That office was run with like 30 people.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And so I was in charge of
the entire training division.

Yeah.

Someone else was in charge of the
entire customer service division.

Someone else was in charge
of, you know, accessories.

And, it was a really cool place,
to work because the director

level management was kind of like.

Well, it's your division.

You have a corporate credit card.

If you need to go buy something
to keep your division running,

you know, you go do that.

Like there was, there was certain
things that you could just do.

I left that job and I went to Suzuki.

Uhhuh.

Suzuki is, you know, when I started
there, I think they had like a

couple hundred people in the office.

Uhhuh, you know, they had an accounting
division, they had a marketing cluster.

They had my, I was in charge of
training and I had five people

that worked underneath me.

Toby, I'm gonna tell you the amount
of meetings that they scheduled,

and I watched my vice president
just walk back and forth through

the cubicles to a meeting room.

Then he'd come back out, then he'd go
back in, then he'd come back out and I

asked him one day we went to lunch and I
said, Steve, at what point do you actually

get to take action or do any of the
work that you discuss in these meetings?

Like, I never see you get to do it
Uhhuh, how do you stay awake all day?

You know?

But it, it was what you described was it
became so ineffectual, it became, just

this giant boat anchor of process rather
than anything that you kind of enjoyed.

Toby: Yeah.

I think of like dream jobs.

'cause you mentioned that,
that's an interesting thing.

I have two jobs that
stand out as dream jobs.

One was, sports writer
for the Northwest Herald.

loved it.

Did it for six months and then I moved
and that was the end of my career.

the other one was front desk
manager at the University of

Minnesota's, full-time MBA program.

Did that for a couple years.

Loved it.

I was the lowest level
employee, but it was one of the

greatest times of my life and

Kurt: my dream job, the
job I enjoyed the most.

And people will say I'm crazy, was when
I was young, I worked the outbound at

one of the UPS hubs, loading trucks.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And it was real life Tetris
to me, and I really got good at it.

I held the load record in, in the Willow
Grove hub for years, as far as I know.

Toby: Congratulations.

Kurt: Yeah, it was amazing.

I just, I was like, and, and the, you
know, they always try and tricky and throw

like a box in that has the wrong zip code
on it, you know, ring it back off the back

door, you know, and they're like, P we
can never get 'em, you know, it's like.

It's like, ah, I'm good at this job.

And it's like when you're really good
at something and it's physical and it's

almost like a mental break to do it.

It was like, it was just
like this awesome job.

And I trained other people.

I volunteered on the training staff.

That's probably my first
experience with corporate training.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: I just love that job.

na: Yeah.

Kurt: And now I'm old, right?

Mm-hmm.

I'm 57 and I look at.

Younger people and I'll say
things like, oh, you should get

a job loading trucks at UPS.

Yeah.

And they look at me
like, I've got six heads.

Yeah.

There's, who would do that?

Toby: A real misunderstanding,
like, I don't think I would've

called it my dream job when I was,
maybe I would have, I don't know.

But, it's funny how many people our
age, and I think part of it is like,

like we look back and at these simpler
times as like the better jobs in a way.

but part of it I was thinking.

Back when I was doing those jobs, I
had no external forces on my time.

Yeah.

Like it was just like, how
am I gonna use my time today?

And I devoted all my energies to like
running the full-time MBA front desk.

I went to all the events and knew
everybody and I stayed late and

showed up early, did weekends.

And as you get older, like people are
like, what's your work life balance?

But I think like.

What that question fails to capture
is you don't need a work life balance

when you're, when you have no external
pressures and you're young and you're

physically fit, and you know like, yeah,

Kurt: yeah.

Just go, go, go.

I'm curious, what was your first
venture into like, entrepreneurism?

What was your, the very first inkling,
not your first job or your first

company, but what was the first time
that you thought I could leverage the

efforts of others for my personal gain?

Toby: Okay.

so I was not, I was afraid
to be entrepreneurial.

but my dad delivered little
Debbie's, that was his job.

he had a little Debbie truck, and
the way little Debbie works is

you buy a route and little Debbie
does not make a lot of money.

I think his salary the one,
he was like $25,000, you know?

So like, and we had a
family of nine, you know.

So like, but he had the
truck and with little Debbie.

Now this is different for hostess
and bread companies and a lot of

other companies where the company
will buy back your stale product.

Their, their idea is like,
push more product, push more.

With little Debbie, you're responsible.

You buy what you think you can
sell and then you keep the rest.

so we had a garage full
of little Debbie's.

I used to bring them to school in
high school and sell them like for.

I don't know, a quarter
a box or 50 cents a box.

And my dad's like, whatever.

They're just gonna get eaten
by raccoons in our garage.

So like, so I'd say that was it.

Selling little Debbie's for a
quarter, a pop or a box or whatever.

I remember, there's one guy who loved
honey buns and every now and then I would

get like a box of the gas station honey
buns, which are larger than like you'd

get in the regular box of 10 or whatever.

So how about you?

What was your, like those big honey buns?

Kurt: Yeah.

Mine was, I lived in Philadelphia, in
the suburbs, and I had a paper route,

and it was the seventh grade and it was
the old school bicycle canvas, sack,

bicycle, you know, newspaper route.

And one day a kid didn't
show up to do his route.

And the It's gonna sound mean,
but, but the adult in charge of the

newspaper center, he was not all there.

He, he was a special
needs person for sure.

na: Mm.

Kurt: And he was like, you know, hey,
the kid didn't show up to do his route.

And I said, just gimme the
route and I'll take it.

And he was like, oh, but
you already have a route.

I said, don't worry about it.

Just gimme the route.

I'll take care of it.

And so, I delivered all
those papers, right?

And so the next day, same thing.

Same thing.

So a week goes by, I got two routes.

Another kid quits.

I pick up a third route, I pick up a
fourth route, I pick up a fifth route.

This poor dude is like, I have no idea
how the seventh graders delivering,

delivering these papers, but they're
all getting delivered, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And so, what he didn't realize was
I had hired a bunch of fifth and

sixth graders to go and deliver the
papers, and all I did was, go around

and knock on the door and collect.

Right.

So gimme the money, gimme
the money, gimme the money.

And then I would pay the kids out, right?

Mm-hmm.

And then I'd go buy myself
a couple Mountain Dews at

the beverage store, Uhhuh.

And then I just gave what, whatever
was left to this dude, the newspaper

general manager, guy Uhhuh.

And a couple of times
I was short, you know?

And he said, Hey, you're short.

And I said, well, that's.

What happens when you hire kids?

What'd you expect?

Go find some more kids.

What'd you expect?

You know, all I know is I
got my Mountain Dew, bro.

And it was such a, such
a surreal experience.

'cause when you find, 'cause he goes,
how are you delivering all these papers?

And I was like, I got all these
kids delivering papers for me.

He was like, you can't do that.

But then I was like.

you know what?

I think I was meant to be a businessman.

na: Yeah.

Toby: Yeah.

That was what I, I had when I got
fired from that job that I told

you about, they go, I think you're
just a, a business owner, Toby.

Yeah.

I was like, yeah, that seems about right.

Yeah.

You're, you're too independent and
free thinking for the rest of us.

Right, right.

so, if we can just turn that last thought
around, like the idea of like, Some

employees are gonna be better than others.

Now this person was
like, he's doing the job.

I'm gonna ask no questions.

how do you like, tell me about an
experience where you had an employee,

maybe it was a part-time contractor,
maybe it was a job and you realized they

weren't do getting it done, and then you
had to like figure out a way to get it

done and maybe you found another person.

And you know,

Kurt: that is always, always difficult.

So during COID, someone that I
had added to my, my staff, if

you wanna call it that, you know,
and we're all contractors, right?

We're all kind of moving and grooving.

but she had really embraced
this idea of multiple paychecks.

Like, so she had a full-time gig working
for another company and was remote.

And then she would say, oh yeah,
I can do that for you, Kurt.

That's not a problem.

And then I found out she had another
company she was full-time remote for,

and then she had a third company.

She was picking up contracts for.

Now, kudos to her because she
had figured out how to live in

California and make $400,000 a year.

The problem was I was getting really
sub quality work and Ana Nomas

isn't known for sub quality work.

my whole agency is built on the idea of.

on budget and ahead of deadline,
but you still have to meet

a quality standpoint, right?

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: So, you know,
that's that always thing.

Do you want it good?

Do you want it fast or
do you want it cheap?

Right?

But it's at, at no point am I
telling people I'm gonna give you

crap, but get it done on time.

Mm-hmm.

And I was getting some bad stuff and
it just had to be a real conversation.

Yeah.

You know?

And that's.

I have, a John Maxwell certification
in leadership and speaking, and I've

read his whole stinking library and
as well as a couple of other authors.

And I think if you're gonna be
in business, you have to come up

with some word salads, even if it
comes from other authors on how to

approach these difficult topics.

You know, and I found that
being direct is the best way.

You know, like, Hey, I was looking, hey,
I was looking at what you sent over.

just, just a couple of things.

I mean, it's not, it's not
meeting our quality standard.

So I don't know if you didn't spend
enough time on it or if you have other

contracts that you are distracted by.

But, if you're not able to
meet our quality standard,

I'm gonna have to move on.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And that was it.

And she's a great lady.

I really like her.

She's a fun person.

I just, you know, I couldn't keep
up with her thirst for earning.

Toby: like, it's weird because I
had a, an employee that was doing

that too, something like that.

I'm pretty sure I was
a second or third job.

And it's a strategy, it's a, it's a
whole strategy where like, you, like

basically say, I'm gonna deliver crap.

And I'll get fired when I
get fired as it happens.

I knew a guy when I was 19.

He was 17.

He was like a high school friend.

and he lied and got a job at
a medical laboratory doing

something that required a PhD.

And so he was making huge dollars.

He's not like, he's just graduated
high school and, I mean, I

don't know, thousands a week,
whereas like, like I was making.

$8 an hour at, you know what, whatever.

And I had a good paying job.

and, but I remember it took them
weeks before they figured it out.

And meanwhile he's just like throwing
money around like, look how rich I am.

You know?

Or maybe it had to be month, like at
least two weeks 'cause he got at least one

paycheck and bought like a fancy camera.

Like, then he got fired.

Ah.

I think like it's easy to pull one over
on people 'cause we have to trust 'em.

You know,

Kurt: you, well you wanna think that the
good's always gonna win or you want to,

you know, we wanna believe these stories.

But the truth of the matter
is, having climbed the

corporate ladder like I had, I.

I witnessed a lot of people in
control or in charge of a lot of

things that they had no business
to be in control or in charge of.

to the point where, you know, we,
if you're working for a motorcycle

company or an automotive company
or, or some, and, and you're like,

you know, hey, as far as I knew.

That vehicle didn't pass
emissions, but we're still

selling it in the United States.

na: Uhhuh,

Kurt: that's, how does that happen?

Right?

Or, hey, what, what,
where did that car go?

Remember that car that got dropped off
by the manufacturer and we were supposed

to look at, where did that car go?

Uhhuh.

It's just gone.

You know, it's like, I can't tell you
how many things have just disappeared,

you know, under someone else's watch,
and, and you're sitting there like, how?

How does this continue to happen?

How is this permitted?

but then we all sit back now in, in our
political landscape and we see Doge at

work and finding, you know, billions and
trillions of dollars misspent, and it's

like, well, those are people that got to
the top of the food chain and just made

super poor decisions and got away with it.

Toby: My buddy was at a, 3M huge
corporation, one of the world's

five biggest maybe at a meeting.

He's telling me he's in marketing.

He has.

Eight people on a call and not
a single one was accepting any

responsibility for the project that
they were all collaborating on.

He's like, so like, you know, it'd
be like, so who's gonna do this?

And just silence.

Next.

Just move on.

Next topic.

Who's gonna do this?

Nothing.

na: Yeah.

Who's

Toby: in charge?

Kurt: Nobody.

I think, like, I was gonna bring this
up and, and you kinda led to this, what.

Was there a moment where you
realized it, the money, that

the dollar amount didn't matter?

Like, like, like we, we say it matters,
but did you hit a, like, were you

ever on a call or something where you
were like, holy crud, that's a lot of

money, and then you're like, all of
a sudden you were like, oh, I guess

money doesn't really have a value.

It's all perception.

Toby: Sure.

I, I did a project once, And the, the
person doing the, the paying, like

make, you know, not the payer, but it
was an agency in town, a bigger agency

in town, and they hired me and they
said, Toby, we'll pay you any amount

you want, like, per hour, you know?

Yeah.

And you can work as
many hours as you want.

I was like, what?

Like, they're like, it doesn't bother,
because they were just funneling

it through to the next person.

Yeah.

Like they were paying all the bills.

They were just scraping
some off the top and.

Kurt: It blew my mind.

Yeah.

I

Toby: mean, yeah.

Kurt: And, and, and inside you
were all being legit, like, well,

our agency rate is $123 an hour.

Totally.

That should take about 10 hours.

Toby: Yeah.

Kurt: yeah.

No, I was on, I used to have a, a business
doing stuff in power sports and I wanted

to go to an event, but I needed to be
fronted about $30,000 in merchandise to

go represent this company at this event.

And it was the Patronus Oil Company.

So.

I asked my people and my people
said, oh, we're gonna be on a

call with Patronas next week.

Just jump on the call and ask them.

I'm sure it'll be fine.

And I was like, that's weird.

Like I'm just Kurt.

I'm just Kurt and I get
invited to this call.

And my learning experience in
this call changed the entire way

that I did business from then on.

Like there's a reason why I wrote a
course on how to sell work in the service

industry because money doesn't matter.

I'm on the call.

Carl Fogarty, who's a world
famous road racer, ran the team.

he, they said, oh, Carl's got a question.

And he says, you know, and he's
British, so he is, got an accent.

I won't ruin the show by doing it.

And says, Hey, I just need another $50
million for more research and development.

Right.

And they went, no problem, Carl.

Just fill out the form, fax it on over.

We assume it's gonna be the same account.

Right?

And he was like, righto.

And I was like, boom.

And they said, okay, well
it's been a great call.

And then my guy Neil says, oh no, no,
there's one more person on the call.

I.

I'm asking for 30 grand.

I'm scared to death, right?

I'm scared to death to ask
for $30,000, and someone just

got $50 million on the call.

And so I was like, I want
to go to Laguna Seca.

I wanted to represent the company, but
I'm gonna need about $30,000 in, in

merchandise to put on display there.

and they almost laughed at me.

They were like.

Dude, just send over, just send
over a tick list of what you need.

We'll take care of the shipping.

It'll be there waiting for you.

Like I, and I was trying to think, well,
how am I gonna get from Albuquerque

to California and carry all this crud?

na: Yeah.

Kurt: And they were like, oh
no, we'll just have our, you

know, we'll have logistics.

Drop it for you.

Everything.

And of course, we sold
everything out that weekend.

So there was no debt to carry.

It was, it was all profit.

But that phone call.

Change the way I handled every
financial conversation after that.

That's because now I just add up the
numbers and the numbers, the number's, the

number, doesn't matter what the number is.

Now the customer can say yes or no.

Toby: Right?

You know, when I worked at the u the
boss of my department, amazing person,

I think I asked her once, like, we were
having a conversation about budgets

and she was saying like, what's to stop
me from spending way over my budget?

Nothing.

Like what?

So like some accountant a year from now
is like, you went over budget, then what?

Is the university not gonna pay the bill?

Like, they'll figure it out.

Like, that was her attitude.

She was awesome.

They'll figure it out.

Yeah.

Like some, they'll get
money from somewhere.

Kurt: Yep.

Yep.

'cause someone's over budget and they'll,
they'll scrape it from somewhere else.

Toby: Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're right, like, money, And
that's what my, my dad always told

me, like, never feel bad about
taking someone spending money.

Like for a legitimate purpose.

Like Yeah.

You know, like for little Debbie's.

Yeah.

Little Debbie's and I used to like, play
in a band and I was selling my tape.

I'm like, like, should I
sell it for five bucks or $2?

He's like, just get the five.

Yeah.

Like, you know, like, yeah,

Kurt: ask for nine, see if you can

Toby: buy.

Yeah.

See what happens.

Kurt: That, that's good
stuff I can remember.

And now this is gonna be like, kind
of a crossover from a, a different

show that happened last week.

I don't know if you saw it or not.

But, Kevin Geary and Robert Devore
had a big, I'm not gonna say

argument, but they had a disagreement
about the value of a website.

And, I thought that whole conversation
was extremely interesting because I used

to be the agency in Albuquerque that made
$500 websites and had a list of deadbeat

clients that couldn't pay their bills
or, you know, couldn't afford hosting

at the end of the month or, or whatever.

And now we're the agency that, you
know, bids on enterprise level work.

And gets paid before we do the work.

And the number is the number,
and we're not bashful or shy

about sharing the number.

And, I, I was very intrigued
by that whole conversation.

What, what does it look like on, on
your end where you, you know, I've

Toby: gone up and down over the years,
like in terms of how, or I round the,

round the ROY with how to do that.

I've kind of come to the conclusion
like, for me, what I need is.

the guaranteed money.

So how I solved that problem was
not to like scale up or level

up, but to just demand the money
upfront before any work is done.

And so there are two clients that I
have right now that are always late.

One of 'em is naturally going away, like
it's just not working out naturally.

I didn't have to fire them.

I've like sent them some nice
emails like, and, they're leaving.

another one.

I don't know what's gonna happen.

They're really nice.

They're late all the time.

They, I'm like bending over backwards,
like for payment plans, but it's just

one and like, and like part of it for
me is like, is it, I think they're

paying 50 bucks a month and it's
like, is it worth this headache for

50 bucks a month, one time a month?

Yeah, right now it is.

I'm not, you know, I can stomach it at
some point it probably becomes untenable.

Like we had one guy that was with
us for a long time, like years,

and he was paying $30 a month.

He always paid on time, but he, what
the deal we made with him years ago was

like, we, small thing for $30 a month.

And I like, I tried to get him up
to like, how about one hour a month?

Because like.

That just makes more sense to us.

yeah, and he didn't wanna do that, so it's
like, all right, we can't do it anymore.

Like it was just too much headache.

'cause it was like a totally different,
like, 'cause my team would always be

emailing me, what's one small thing?

Is this a small thing?

It's a small thing.

Be like, I don't know.

so I will still do the small stuff.

Like, like, in fact, what I've
been doing recently, I sold two

of these in the last month and I
didn't do it prior to last month.

So I don't know.

I've actually sold over the
years, I've done a ton of these.

But it's the idea like, what if we
get together, you and I business

you, you're, you buy or me website
guy, and we build you a website.

how long will that take?

And so what I've decided is it's, it's
five sessions, 90 minutes each session.

I'm calling it a workshop.

And at the end of these
five, you'll have a website.

And I've priced it in a way
that makes sense for me.

And, it's weird because like I
feel like it's, that doesn't.

It's really like, so I have this
other team working on all these

other random projects that come in.

and I haven't quite figured out
how this fits or if it fits.

Like is it a waste of my time?

Is it just paying their bill and like
creating this fake money flow that,

you know, like, could I just make
more money by firing the other people?

And, you know, I don't think
that's true by the way.

I, I think, I think the other
people are profitable in their own.

You know, that business of the company.

But, at the end of the day though,
I'm looking at it like, I'm like,

if I could sell a lot of these, this
would be really interesting too.

A lot of these, like, you know,
if I could do two or three of

these a day, it'd be awesome.

Kurt: Yeah.

So yeah, we went to kind of a
productized, templated offer for startups.

We are.

Consciously avoiding the like
five to $15,000 sites right now.

And then we have a different vertical
that is all like 20 K plus projects.

But they're e-learning.

I mean, they're, they're
involved projects, right.

You know, we just bid on a job that was
like $240,000, but it's, we're gonna

help create the learning material.

We're gonna, you know, we're,
we're doing curriculum development,

so, so it's, so it's a big thing.

The productized offer was only
because I moved to Hutchinson, Kansas.

I moved to Hutchinson, Kansas,
and it's like, man, there's

a lot of food trucks in town.

None of them have a working website.

There's a lot of coffee shops in town.

None of them have a working website.

And by working, I mean anything
better than a digital business card.

Mm-hmm.

And and some of them like you would
just be, you know, critical error

screens or all kinds of stuff.

Yeah.

And I thought, you know what?

Let's make a sample website for a
food truck, a sample website for a

consultant, a sample website for a
construction company that does remodeling.

What are the tools that each
of those would want, like make

appointments or charge for this
or have a menu or whatever.

And then we, through our hosting, have
a thing called blueprinting, which is

like a, it's like a multi-tenancy idea
where you just clone that, that instance.

They name it, they put their URL on it.

They can change whatever
they want to change.

It's an independent site.

It's not a multi-site and it's theirs.

And so we offer those as a super
affordable startup package and then $79

a month for hosting and maintenance.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: Because we update all the
plugins and, 'cause they're, they

wanna run their food truck, right?

They don't wanna know how WordPress works.

Toby: How much of that is standardized?

Like for, for the plugin and theme mix
across, let's say you have 10 food truck

sites, do they use the exact same plugins
and themes, or are they Ver variety of My

Kurt: goal

Toby: mm-hmm.

Kurt: Is to put them
all on the same thing.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: Right.

Because let's face facts, like
that's, the sample is mostly

like yellow and orange, right?

So it looks like an Oscar
Meyer side, I guess.

But, Someone else comes in.

Okay, we're gonna change that primary
color to blue, the secondary color

to red, the primary color to gray.

The secondary color to yellow.

The the, and then the site
looks completely different.

Mm-hmm.

na: And then

Kurt: you throw in tacos on
one and hot dogs on another.

They're completely different websites.

na: Mm-hmm.

But.

Kurt: so all the client has to do
is change the images and the text.

and then we give them training,
like I forgot to mention that, but

we give them training on here's
how you update the shopping cart.

Here's how you update, here's how you
add your stripe contact information.

you know, I saw Matt's thing.

He did a, a video on
making a, a brew house.

A tap house website using.

Gravity form and gravity square, add-on

Toby: uhhuh.

Kurt: And I was like, man, that was clean.

That was clean.

Yeah.

Toby: So you, it made you think.

Kurt: Yeah.

So, so I might steal that example and,
and do a different project with that.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

na: But

Kurt: I like having these different
projects where they're, they're

kind of templatized and then they
go, oh, well I, I'm a consultant.

Great.

Right?

Here's a consultant website.

It makes appointments, it
charges people for things.

It has a CRM built into it.

It does this, it does this, it does this.

It's 1500 bucks and it's yours and it's 79
bucks a month to host it and maintain it.

And they go, okay.

And it just makes it, it easy

Toby: a question.

It's kind of related.

it popped in to my, my head.

so

the reason, the reason we're
able to make our businesses work.

Is 'cause we've figured
out how to sell this stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Would it be, I haven't seen an
example of that with someone from,

let's say, Pakistan, figuring
out how to sell in Hutchinson,

Kansas or Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Like, what's the blocker there?

Kurt: You are gonna make me sound mean,
Toby, when someone like, for instance.

I have a couple customers.

I, I've one in the
Netherlands, one in the uk.

I have one in Spain.

I, nope, they're not with
me anymore from Italy.

They're not with me anymore.

And those are like people that
knew me from something, right?

So they knew me from the power sports
industry, or they knew me from,

maybe the podcast that I'd done with
WP Tonic or something like that.

But if I didn't have that connection,
I wouldn't have those clients.

There's no way I would be able
to jump into the, into the fray,

you know, in Spain and become the
number one web provider in Spain.

Yeah, that's a great way to look

Toby: at

Kurt: it.

So it, it just wouldn't happen.

And so the expectation that
they would come here and find

success is pretty slim unless.

They get notoriety some other way,

Toby: but why couldn't it
happen for you in Spain?

I'm, that's what I'm trying, that's
the question I'm asking like, like

you or me, like what's stopping us
from, and or, or here's another way

less extreme example, and this is, I'm
talking about this with my SEO guy.

Like he's like, maybe we should like
open a fake Atlanta office and capture

some of the Atlanta local Google juice.

What's.

We haven't done it yet.

We pro, I don't know if we will or
not, but like, what's stopping us?

Or you, or you know, just from, you
have Hutchinson, why not Kansas City?

na: Like,

Kurt: you

na: know?

Yeah.

Like,

Kurt: yeah.

Well there's a girl that jumps on the
post status calls from Kansas City.

I really don't wanna tick her off.

She seems like she's full of energy.

She come after me.

But you know what?

So.

Take it from another example.

You're in your town, right?

People know who you are.

We see you around, you're getting on a
podcast, you're doing, you're, you're

spreading your mojo around, right?

There's other WordPress people in
your town doing effectively, little

to nothing, but somehow still have
a business tile over their door.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: When I go to Grok and I say, who
are the best, agencies to get a WordPress

website made in Hutchinson, Kansas?

Ana Nomas doesn't come up on the list.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: It starts naming companies
I've never even heard of Uhhuh.

and then I start asking it questions
like, why didn't you recommend Ana Nomas?

And it says, well, why would I, you know?

And then it says, I'm like, oh.

And then, but it kept recommending this
one company where I know the owner.

And so I talked to her and I said,
I said, Hey, you know, you were the

number two recommended person on Grok
for, for local website development.

And she's like, oh, that's super cool.

You know, I said, who
are these other people?

And she's like, oh, I haven't
seen them do anything in years.

Right?

And so then it's like you realize, like
you mentioned, the local SEO Juice, right?

It's like, how is AI making
these decisions and coming up?

So AI made me a ton of suggestions on how
to become more, localized for AI search.

I implemented all that stuff, waited two
weeks, did another search to duplicate

it, and I didn't get much better results.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: So it's, you gotta
be in for the long haul.

Toby: Yeah.

So the sales thing has always been weird
to me, and, and I've realized like.

it takes, it, it's a skill and a talent.

Like anything

Kurt: like, well, how many of your
sales are, are what you would call

happenstance or SEO doing its job
versus personal connection referral,

some kind of, you know, touch.

Toby: Yeah, I don't, I mean, I
would guess half are SEO related,

like cold leads or warm leads from
SEO and half are personal leads.

It's a weird thing though, like, like,
and I think maybe this is the answer to

my original question, like, why can't you
sell in Spain or Kansas City that sales

is like an art form in and of itself,
and selling in Kansas City might be way,

way different in a way than selling in
Hutchinson and saying here, you know,

Kurt: well there's that
famous saying, right?

Says If all else is equal, people
will do business with people

they know, like, and trust.

Right?

And so we're super involved here in
town, we're, we are involved with Startup

Hutch, all our entrepreneur activities.

We go to all the after hour parties
with the local Chamber of Commerce.

Hutchinson in a very strange way,
opened itself up to us when we

moved here almost two years ago.

And just.

Soaked us up.

Like I, I got in touch with Startup Hutch.

I said, I love the city.

It's a great place to move.

I can't believe all the
opportunities that are here.

And, they put me on a podcast right away.

And then the city invited me to speak
at City Hall for a entrepreneur class.

And then I spoke at the high school
and I spoke at the college, and

now I do stuff at the church.

And it just keeps snowballing, like we are
integrated into the community so quickly

here that it makes it hard to fail.

Toby: So how, let's say you're, let's
say, 22 years old, you're kind of

getting into WordPress and you wanna
make some money, you wanna, you wanna

transition from your job wherever to,
you know, making some part-time and maybe

full-time cash doing WordPress freelance.

And what's the biggest bang for the
buck for getting that first sale and the

second sale in terms of time, not dollar
spend, but like, you have no money.

How are you gonna get your first sale?

Where, what would you recommend for like.

You have 10 hours this week,
where should they invest 'em?

You know,

Kurt: I always go back to,
and this is gonna sound like

some weird guru stuff, right?

But I just always go back
to what's your niche?

What are you interested in?

How, how do you find your people like.

Ju.

So what if you're 22 years old, right?

Are, are you into mountain biking?

Are you into bicycling?

Are you into skateboarding?

Are you into, you know,
dj, you know, music?

Are you into video games?

figure out what you're into.

Then get into those groups,
whether they're live or virtual.

Get into those groups.

Add value.

Right.

So, so give away some free
information or, you know, show

that you're a knowledgeable person.

And then through passion and
affiliation, leads begin to erupt.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and once you do the first
gig, you get that person to give

you a testimonial, and then you got
two or three gigs, and then out of

those two or three gigs, you end up
with one or two more testimonials.

And then you just leverage it.

You just start going, you just start
moving, and then you increase the

scope of your niche after that.

So like for me, a lot of my work
was based on, some fitness stuff.

I got real big into like Spartan
races and Century rides on bicycles.

I'm really big in power sports
and the Marine, with boats.

And so a lot of my work is
centered in those areas.

Toby: Great.

We are just about out of time here.

wanna thank everyone for listening, Kurt.

Thank you.

Toby.

Thank you.

I'm thanked.

Kurt: Well, let's, let's do
this, Toby, for the, for the

new listeners and viewers.

how can they best reach you?

Toby: you can find me on LinkedIn.

my last name is C-R-Y-N-S.

that's probably the best place
You can go to the mighty mo.com.

If you google the Mighty mo
WordPress, you'll get me.

Otherwise, you'll get the famous
Battleship or, or, in Missouri.

I think it might, it's not Kansas City,
but it's some, some place by Hutchins.

na: I didn't understand that.

Toby: But, it's a radio station, the
Mighty Mo, but go to the mighty mo.com

WordPress, you'll find me.

How about you, Kurt?

How can people find

Kurt: you?

like yourself, I'm on LinkedIn.

I'm the only Kurt van on and on LinkedIn,
so if you find me, you know, you got me.

And, I guess we can also ask the
listeners and viewers if they had

a really great name for the show,
that would be awesome, right?

Mm-hmm.

for, for agencies, by agencies
and, I guess that's that.

Toby: And then also show your love to the
WP Minute for sponsoring this podcast.

Matt and his team do an amazing job.

They've been doing it for 15
years or something like that.

they keep on trucking.

They're like the little engine
that will never, ever stop.

So there you go.

So thanks everybody.