The WP Minute+

Matt: Katie Keith, welcome
back to the WP Minute.

Katie: Yeah.

Thanks for having me back.

Good to be here.

Matt: I've donned you my unofficial,
official nemesis on Twitter,

for your ability to get so much,
interaction, and engagement.

You do a fantastic job.

And I, I sort of joked, a few
Months ago, maybe at this point.

I can't remember because time is weird,
but You do a fantastic job on Twitter

And I want to talk I want to start
with that a lot of folks talk about

like building in public You are very
transparent on in public on Twitter

strategy naturally curious in Exploratory
do you have a strategy on the Twitter

thing inquiring minds want to know?

Katie: I would say not explicitly.

it's like, I suppose an unconscious
strategy might've evolved over time.

Like I only joined, two years and two
months ago, so I'm pretty new really.

and, so it took me a while to
learn, but you'll notice over time,

my tweets have gotten more real.

And I, I try not, I don't want to
be like, One of those guru people.

They, they, they make themselves
sound like a guru and they do

things like sentences on Twitter
that sound like it came out of a

business advice book or something.

That's not what I want to be.

I'd rather have conversations
rather than trying to preach

at people and things like that.

Matt: Yeah, it seems Twitter has
actually become a pretty good sounding

board for, for you as a founder.

you know, is, is that a sort of go
to place for, you know, engaging with

other founders or are you part of other,
like, a lot of, and I know a lot of

founders get into like masterminds and,
and monthly calls, quarterly meetups.

what does that look like in your
world for like that sort of.

Semi solo founder journey, but, reaching
out for advice every now and again.

Katie: Well, my team actually laugh
at me because whenever we need to

do some research or we're unsure
of something, I say, Oh, I'll tweet

it and that'll give us an answer.

And it always does it's amazing and it's
not my only source of advice by any means

I have my team which is about 20 people.

I have a really well established
mastermind group We've been together

five years and we talk every day on
slack calls every two weeks and we share

our experiences and I get loads out of
that But twitter has kind of become an

additional way to get basically free
business advice from really great people.

some of the top people in WordPress will
happily answer my questions and share.

And I try to do the same
when other people ask.

So I find that Twitter opens you up to
a kind of wider pool of people that have

lots of relevant experience and I use it
in all sorts of ways, not just things like

strategy questions and what do you think
of this idea, but also like hiring people.

I've hired quite a lot of people that
I got to know on Twitter, whether

it's for freelance work or in house.

team members.

I hate advertising jobs.

It's such a pain and takes forever.

but actually once you've built a
network on Twitter, you can just reach

out to people who you respect through
Twitter that you know a bit about them.

And that's probably more promising than
spending weeks and weeks advertising

Matt: Katie Keith is the co
founder of Barn2 Plugins, Barn2.

com, and on that Twitter, ecosystem
you recently announced that while

you're heavily focused on WooCommerce,
and creating WooCommerce plugins

and solutions, and of course other
plugins for WordPress, but you're

sort of shifting gears a bit and
introducing Shopify into the mix.

Really excited to talk about that today.

We're gonna, we're gonna save that to
the end and keep that audience member,

that listener engaged, through the show.

So, I noticed you haven't.

Set up blue sky yet.

Are you on blue sky?

Are you thinking about, you
know, splitting your time

on the other social media?

Katie: right now.

No, it just feels like one
is enough to do properly.

I've got a bit put off with Facebook.

I've used Facebook personally for years,
but then when WordPress people started

adding me, there was a lot of duplication.

So my Facebook feed became full of
Facebook posts that were the same as

things they'd already posted on Twitter.

And I find that really annoying.

I don't want to see the
same thing more than once.

So my guess is that blue sky is
a lot of that, and people that

I'm already connecting with.

So I don't want to spend
time looking through a second

feed with the same content.

I may be wrong there, but I don't
feel I have the energy to do justice

to multiple platforms right now.

People also say go on LinkedIn
and I really can't be bothered.

Matt: yeah Yeah, i've i've totally
pulled out of uh of of facebook

both personally and professionally
for for a while now, right?

I I don't really spend any time there
unless I need to go like check something

specific but yeah, I think a lot of
folks who are Dipping their toes into

the blue sky waters or doing that.

Right.

I'm doing it.

I'm copying and pasting the same
thing I'm posting on Twitter and

Katie: Interesting.

No one's told me that, but I suspected.

Matt: Yeah.

And now there, there are times where
I do feel more compelled to just

like, write something in blue sky.

Blue sky, really?

You know, I listen.

I think there's a lot of people
who have just like everything

else in life, my God, can we stop?

It's been politicized.

like.

Yeah, like everything else and it's just
like look I like it because there are no

ads right now there's no algorithm just
like constantly throwing like rage content

at me and It is like the essence of what
Twitter was Many many years ago where oh

my god third party developers that can
access it API access third party apps like

all that is great right now Until I know
the eventual closing of API and data and

the ads will come and I'm just like right
now I just want to enjoy this product

that is very reminiscent of Twitter that
I really enjoyed and Yeah, like I don't

know where it's gonna go, but I am quasi
investing in that This is gonna be a,

this is a long rant about like Twitter.

I love Twitter, or X, and I love, I love
it because the feed is largely text based

and I can just literally see more on my
screen at one time, whether that's on

my mobile phone or my, or my desktop,
on my, my monitor, my laptop, whatever.

Whereas you do go to something like A
Facebook or a LinkedIn and the posts

just take up, it's like posts, ads,
posts, ads, and it's just these big

blocks of content with so much happening
on LinkedIn that I too, I'm like,

I need to do better at this thing.

And I don't because I'm exhausted just
looking at the feet, whereas I don't

get that with Twitter and blue sky.

Katie: Yeah, true.

Matt: Yeah.

let's talk about your other content
marketing strategies at Barn2.

YouTube, live streams, of course
you do, the product talk podcast as

well with your, team of podcasters.

but how is the, what's the strategy
looking like for 2025 with video and,

and other content related to Barn2?

Katie: Well, our primary content
channel is and has always

been SEO content on our blog.

I know everyone keeps saying
Google's dead, SEO is dead.

But even if it's replaced by AI,
The AIs need something to crawl and

index, which can come from our blog.

So the vast majority of our
sales still come from our blog.

So that is our main channel
where we put a lot of resources.

But we do have a full time YouTuber,
Sam, who's been with us two years now.

So he's putting out
regular content on YouTube.

And that's our second
biggest source of sales.

It's way behind Google
organic, but it is significant.

So that's a good sort
of backup, I suppose.

Like, about six months ago, we had a
temporary drop in the Google search

results after an algorithm change,
which had never happened before.

So that was scary.

And the YouTube actually grew during
that period, presumably for the

same algorithm reason that while the
blog went down, the YouTube went up.

So it is good to have
more than one channel.

Matt: Yeah.

Have you, have you tested the, AI
results, like searching your own product

or like your own knowledge base on
how to do something, but asking like

chat GPT or Claude and, and analyzing
what they're giving you for results.

Katie: I have a bit and it does recommend
our products appropriately and also

we've seen sales from AI particularly
perplexity AI in our analytics as

well as the source of conversion.

So that's nice to see.

And customers is telling us more and more.

I bought your plugin because
chat GPT recommended it.

So that's really good as well.

Matt: Yeah.

Good and scary.

Right.

what on the YouTube channel?

I know Sam, it's, I actually saw him
at the last, I don't even know what the

official title is for it, but it's like
Anne McCarthy from Automatic does like

a roundup of YouTubers, every month and
they, they train us on, you know, stuff

coming out of Automatic and WordPress.

And I saw Sam on there, and he's,
just to give some kudos to Sam.

He's really engaging.

He's, you know, he's saying
like, Hey, I'm kind of new to the

space and I, and I'm learning.

and it's great to connect
with other people.

So he, you know, he's, he's doing his job.

I know it might be review time, so
let's, let's give Sam a little bump.

Uh, and it's, and it's great.

What other things are you thinking about
other than like the tutorial videos?

I I've seen some like
office hours kind of things.

Like what else is working for
you for content on, on YouTube?

Katie: Yeah, we started the live streams
that you mentioned a year ago and I do

those with Sam and he's a good person to
do those with because he, from setting

up the tutorials, he knows our products
really well so he's able to answer

questions live as well as they come in.

So we're quite a good team with that.

And we always get loads of people
watching live, quite a lot of

questions, both live and pre submitted.

And I was really surprised that they
work actually, because we've got 19

premium plugins, which are quite diverse.

They're not all WooCommerce,
although they mostly are.

So they don't necessarily have
a theme to bring them together.

So I was reluctant to start a live stream
because I thought why would anybody

want to watch it all the way through
when we have so many different products?

But they do, for some reason.

I also don't know why anybody
would subscribe to our

newsletter for the same reason.

It's all these random plugins, but we've
got loads and loads of subscribers.

And so People do seem to be interested
just in what we're doing generally

and willing to sit through content on
plugins they may not yet know about and

hopefully they will then buy plugins
that they didn't know they wanted.

Matt: Yeah, I, I think there's going
to be, you know, as wonderful as, you

know, or maybe not wonderful is not
the right word, but as efficient as AI

is making some things and people are
like interested in AI from like the

business perspective in, in like the
research, like give me this answer and

explain it more like, you know, better.

Better than like just
doing a Google search.

I think there's still going to be this
desire to have a human connection.

Right?

recently I switched from, so to give
an example, like I'm at the point

where, and we kind of see this in the
WordPress space and this is the next

topic that we're going to transition to.

but people want humans, right?

to be served by humans.

They want, I hope anyway, they
want to be served by humans.

They want to know who's
behind a particular product.

And, you know, we see all this stuff
happening with, with WordPress and

we, we kind of know like who owns
WordPress, we know who develops it.

And that's largely why
we choose WordPress.

But recently I switched from MailChimp to
ConvertKit, or now just called Kit because

I was just like, you know, I, into it.

Like, I don't know anybody over there.

I don't care about this megacorp.

They don't care about me.

I want to make conscious purchasing
decisions for my business

software that I know I just know
who the people are who make it.

Right?

And I think that's one of the long
term advantages WordPress has had

being open source and connected.

And maybe that's a thing with like,
YouTube, like you maybe scratch

your head sometimes, like why
did anybody want to watch this?

I hope that there's consumers out there
that are, that want that human connection.

To know who's behind it, and to know like
where their dollars are going, you know?

Other than just buying the product.

They just want to know who's
behind this, who's making this.

What's their vision for the long term of,
of my business that runs their software?

So, I think there's something there.

I don't know if you've Thought about
that or how you see that like that human

connection or how important it is to you.

Katie: Yeah, I think that's
more and more important the last

couple of years for two reasons.

One is AI, because a lot of content is
being produced by AI now, and so by having

real humans, I think, obviously the deep
fakes are coming, but for now, people

I think believe, for example, that me
and Sam on the livestreams are actually

real people, and Sam on our YouTube.

And we try to add that personal touch
to various things like we might have

my name and signature and photo at the
end of an email like an, I don't know,

abandoned cart email or something to
show this is a company of real people.

And the second reason I think that
has become more important is maybe

probably three years ago now, a lot of
WordPress companies were acquired by

larger companies and a lot of them I
think became less personal as a result.

Some of them kept their original founders
who continued advocating for those

companies even after being acquired
and others lost that personal faith.

So I think that since Farm 2 is
independent, there is a person that is,

reasonably known within the WordPress
space, running it, and even talking openly

about how I run it and things like that.

I think that that adds credibility.

And while the people that follow me on
say Twitter, aren't necessarily my target

market, because a lot of them are product
people rather than potential customers.

There are, for example, agencies and
developers following me who do buy

plugins and have said that they're
more likely to buy our products as a

result of that personal connection.

Matt: Yeah a lot of this was Had me like
why I was critically thinking about it.

I mean, I've been thinking about it for
years in fact, I was going back through

my Some of my youtube videos on the
Matt report channel, you know where I

talked about You know, this goes back
and I'm not like the only person who

has said it, but like go back like five,
eight years, 10 years talking about like

why human connection is so important.

But, recently with all this WordPress
stuff that's happening, we recently

saw at the time of this recording the
injunction come down from, the court and

sort of in favor of, of WP Engine and,
Matt Mullenweg wasn't too happy about

it and was very verbose, for lack of a
better phrase, in post status, sort of

commenting on it and, and quitting post
status, largely, I guess, because of it.

And it really has me You know,
had me thinking about, okay,

where am I going with my dollars?

Who am I like partnering my business with?

And I've, I've heard people
say like, well, I'm switching

content management systems.

I'm getting out of WordPress entirely.

I'm starting to look for alternatives.

has this impacted you and your team?

I mean, we're going to talk
about the Shopify thing.

Maybe that's, this is part of
the reason, but has it like

boots on the ground impacted?

Maybe your customers
are asking you about it.

what the long term.

Lifespan of WordPress is how has it
impacted you this whole scenario?

Katie: Well, no customer has ever
mentioned it to me or my support team.

It has never been mentioned in any
of the comments on a live stream.

So I feel that we need
to acknowledge this.

so internally, I have been worried
and we'll talk about this more with

Shopify stuff in a way that I haven't
before about potential future risk,

but this risk has not yet materialized.

And, we have, our sales are about the same
as they were last year, which isn't great.

But, that actually, we haven't
had much growth since a few months

before all this stuff kicked off.

So you can't blame it for that.

We haven't had a drop over Black Friday.

we haven't seen any material, drop
in revenue that we can attribute to.

These recent events, but it is a scary
time and it feels like things are

less certain than they were before.

Matt: Yeah, that that's for sure.

it's interesting.

Like I, I, I talked to
some I don't know, normies?

Is that to tell you?

People who don't follow WordPress,
certainly don't watch my show, but they

are, they do use WordPress and only a
handful of them kind of knew about it

but largely because they are WP Engine
customers so that content is getting

thrown in their face like because it
has to be through emails and I guess

dashboard notifications and things
like that but they still were unclear.

This scenario too has also like Tried, and
I think this is a broader impact across

the community, and I'm interested in
your thoughts on it, is, you know, that,

that passion, that, you know, that desire
to see, like, to see WordPress continue

to grow, I think that's been like the
biggest impact, right, for a lot of us,

is to be like, whoa, this isn't what we
thought it was like emotionally, right?

Like, do I need this stress, you know,
in my life, for this kind of thing?

Should I be thinking about this?

and maybe it's just me because I cover
it also as, as like a media channel.

but like, do I need to, have this stress
in my life and do I want to continue to,

you know, fly this flag for WordPress?

And the answer is still.

Yes, for me, except for the stress
part of it, but, it's also like, yeah,

man, like this is where year after
year taught that this is just a tool.

And, as innovators and as like
leaders of our businesses, we have

to keep thinking about like how
we can pivot, or at least expand.

so that all the eggs aren't
just in the WordPress basket,

whereas, you know, five years ago,
you're probably not saying that.

And that's like one of the
real unfortunate things.

the fallout of all this stuff.

Mm.

Mm

Katie: that's exactly it.

So as a business, I've always felt
really safely diversified with Barn too.

Because we have multiple products, we
have products across different niches,

like some WordPress, some WooCommerce.

We have annual renewal, so that if there
was ever a sudden drop in new sales for,

say, one product, then We would still have
the sales from our other products and our

annual renewals, even on that product.

So I've always felt really, really safe.

We also have other income streams
like affiliate revenue for our

blog and that kind of thing.

so I've never felt that my eggs are all
in one basket and WordPress has always

felt like such a safe horse to back.

It's been the market leader for so long.

such a great market share and I've
never had any doubts about the

whole business being dependent on
WordPress until the last two months.

And then I started to think actually.

It feels like there could be a drop in
market share and usage of WordPress, which

I've never even worried about before.

And even though I haven't seen it start
to happen yet in the numbers, the fact

that the leader of this community can
destabilize people's confidence in it

so quickly to that extent is very scary.

And.

While we wouldn't, like, be bankrupt
straight away or anything if there

was a 25 percent drop in the number
of WordPress sites, obviously

that would have consequences.

And for the first time, I'm worried that
something like that could happen if,

these dramas continue to have that impact.

So that is, one of, well, two things
that started me to think about Shopify.

The other is that I've always known
that there was a risk that our product's

functionality could be merged into
either WordPress core or WooCommerce

core, but it's never happened.

And, and that's, and I knew that that was
a very lucky thing and it could happen

at any time, but WooCommerce has a new
policy, which is currently called more in

core, where they're actively looking to
put a lot more functionality into core.

And in a way, I think that's amazing
and good because a stronger WooCommerce

means bigger market share, more people
using it, which means more sales for us.

But some of our plug in features
are in the firing line, some

of our bigger plug ins as well.

So that's another worry.

And while I don't blame WooCommerce
for doing these things or planning

to, I need to safeguard my business.

And so having products on
additional platforms like Shopify.

feels like a safer strategy.

Matt: Yeah.

I, yeah, I want to get it.

I want to get to the, to the,
that WooCommerce more in core.

It sounds like the biggest corporate
speak I have ever, Steve Bomber,

developers, development developers,
more in core, more in core.

Or do you, does Barn two have
any exposure on wordpress.org?

In other words, if WordPress, if Matt
just said, I'm taking this wordpress.org

thing down, does that, how
does that affect Barn two?

Katie: We do have some free
plugins, but that is minor for us.

It wouldn't cause us major problems.

So I haven't been as freaked out as some
people about on a personal level about

what happened to ACF, for example, which
I realized they have to give back now.

and also threats like the threat made
against paid memberships pro when they

tried to remove plugin from wordpress.

org.

Matt Mull and Wegg basically threatened
to take it over without their permission,

which didn't happen, but I wasn't
personally worried because we are

not dependent on our free plugins
in the way that many customers are.

Like I said earlier, our sales
typically come from our content

strategies and not from wordpress.

org.

Matt: Yeah.

There was a episode of WP Product Talk
where Matt showed up, in an interview

earlier this year, and, I'm still kicking
myself and I, and I, Still kicking myself.

I didn't write this blog post because it
was like I was watching that episode and

there was just something very Different
in his tone in his delivery I mean aside

from the fact he was trying to do it from
the woods And he kept having internet,

you know internet connection, which was
was which was just like what's happening

here but it was at that moment where I
recognized a different a change in him

and I started to like pen an outline.

I was just like the things that are,
that will have to happen at automatic.

And I was like playing with titles, like,
Oh, if I ran automatic, this is what I

would do, or things I think Matt will
be doing with automatic or whatever.

And one of them was
ripping the bandaid off.

And, that was one of my
subtitles and it was.

Kind of what we're seeing now, but I
didn't think it'd be this egregious where

I think he needs to take automatic and
WordPress and be like Here's WordPress

by automatic right just as like a product
as a company to go this long this far

without any real massive Like, big product
shift, like, people don't go to wordpress.

com for hosting, that's not your
first, that's not your first spot

when you're thinking WordPress.

you're thinking about other web
hosts, and you're not thinking of

WordPress as like, ooh, this amazing
product that people must have.

You're thinking like, okay, this is
a product I have to learn, it's a

great alternative, it's open source,
I gotta kinda learn it and put it

together and host it over here, and
it's a good solution, but I'm not

like, It's not a desire for me, right?

It's not this thing I desire.

And I'm thinking to myself, like, in
his shoes, there has to be this shift.

And I've always said that he's going
to put WordPress front and center by

automatic, powered by Jetpack, powered
by com, powered by WP Cloud, and oh, by

the way, down here in the bottom right
hand corner, download WordPress for free.

Right?

That's how I kind of like frame it.

We, I mean, we all know how to
get free open source WordPress.

You can just go to the github
and download it or whatever.

But I think from a packaging
positioning thing, he needed

to make this like drastic move.

Now, I don't know if this was the motive
behind what he did here, but I thought

there was a rip the bandaid off moment.

And then, focusing on WooCommerce.

This gazillion pound gorilla in
the room that largely the average

shop owner, who knows Shopify.

Has no idea about WooCommerce or how
to put it together or what it means

and that was just like another focus
And I made a comment you you you had

published something on Twitter about
the more in core thing and I think I

just came out like bluntly and said
like I don't think WooCommerce is

gonna care about our customers, right?

I think WooCommerce cares about,
they look at your, like, Barntu's

customers as their customers.

Because I think we're in that rip the
band aid off moment with Automatic.

And as many Developer relation people
they're gonna throw at us to like smooth

that over I think the time is up for them
to be like, oh, let's all work together

No matter what they say on like social or
in like real puff piece marketing things

You don't have to get as aggressive on
that response as I have but like that's

the way I see it I just I don't see
WooCommerce Slowing down and I think

they're just gonna come for everyone's
customers because I think that's just

gonna be the, the revenue generator
for automatic for the next five years.

Katie: I think that Matt Mullenweg has
shown a more aggressive side of himself

lately and a disrespect for the community
and the people and companies in it.

And of course, He, ultimately
controls WooCommerce.

However, I haven't seen any evidence
that he's particularly involved in

it at all on a day to day basis.

And I have seen a lot of evidence
of a real desire for collaboration

from the people who are in charge
at WooCommerce at the moment.

And so People are very suspicious
of WooCommerce at the moment

because it's part of Automattic.

But actually I am not seeing
those worries in the actions of

the people in charge right now.

Are you?

Matt: Yeah, well, I, so there
was the inter, I think it was

Matt's interview with, on, on
the TechCrunch Disrupt, stage.

I think that was the one.

And, I've always been, you know, having
talked to Matt a few times and, on this

podcast or on the podcast that I've done,
I've always learned to, Listen for what he

doesn't say and what he doesn't mention.

And there, there was a few throwaway
lines about WooCommerce when, when the

trademark stuff came up about WP Engine
and, and the trademark of, of WordPress

and them sort of, air quotes, abusing it.

And there was just like this throwaway
comment with like, All the nuances

around, abusing the WordPress trademark.

And then he kind of like threw away like,
and then there's WooCommerce, but that's,

you know, that's totally our trademark.

I'm paraphrasing here, but it was sort of
like, you, you might be able to mess with

the nuances of WordPress because it's been
in the community for, you know, 20 years

and it's open source and everyone kind of
recognizes that, but we own WooCommerce.

Ain't nobody touching this WooCommerce
thing and I heard him like kind of

like just full stop on the WooCommerce
thing Like you can't even mess

with this and I thought to myself.

Yeah, like that is a brand that That's
a that's a pure trade pure trademark

play pure brand play that I don't think
anyone can obfuscate who owns that It's

strictly automatic and I think like when
he starts pressing the boot down on that

both like pushing WooCommerce to make
revenue and Like, this is our brand.

It's just gonna be a whole new world.

On, on how they, how they operate.

And, I don't blame them because
they need to run like Shopify

in order to do Shopify things.

I, I, marketing for one, you know,

Katie: No.

Matt: I don't know how he can run.

Certainly.

I don't know how he can run
WooCommerce commercially.

I don't know how he's doing WordPress
commercially without being as traditional,

aggressive business owner, full stop.

Rip the band aid off.

I don't know how he can do it by smiling
and hugging us at WordCamps anymore.

I simply do not see it.

And this is the, this is that next
chapter we're in, in my opinion.

Katie: Yeah, I would quite like to see
them taking full responsibility for

WooCommerce as a platform because, as you
say, it is lacking that central marketing

drive that platforms like Shopify have.

So if they accept they own WooCommerce,
they are ultimately responsible.

And yes, it has an ecosystem of plugins
like Barn2 that are building for it.

If they took that responsibility, I
hope they would drive it to grow more,

which I'm not seeing at the moment and
I'm very disappointed that they're not

doing because they are a profit making
company and I think that they should

be investing more in the marketing
rather than expecting all these smaller

companies to be encouraging people.

Which of course they should do, but I'd
like to see that being done centrally.

And in terms of what you say about,
everybody knows they own WooCommerce, I

think it's hilarious that they, about the
confusion about WP Engine and WordPress

Engine, and is it the same thing?

Because WordPress is so
confusing, like WordPress.

org and automatic and WordPress.

com and who owns what?

And that's where the confusion is.

And obviously it's in
WooCommerce's favour.

well, not obviously because
it's debatable, but I think

it's in WooCommerce's favour
that there isn't that confusion.

It is owned by the, I think Automatic
is a separate company from WooCommerce,

but it owns the WooCommerce company
and that they can therefore have that.

WordPress is very woolly, isn't it?

Matt: Yes, it is.

playground.

So we have the WordPress playground.

We have the WooCommerce playground.

You're going to introduce going
into the Shopify playground.

I have a lot of friends who say,
Oh God, Shopify isn't any better

when it comes to, you know,
playing nice with its competitors.

A friend of the show, Jordan
Gall used to run a site.

A product called cart hook and he has
some very interesting war stories of

dealing with Shopify and how they kind of
pushed him out of their own marketplace

and had no choice but to sort of give
up the reins of his, his software,

which was doing really, really good.

and now he's onto a, a new product
called Hey Rosie, same concerns.

How are you looking at Shopify going
into this, dealing with the same stuff

that we're in the face of dealing with
what we're dealing with in WordPress?

Katie: It does have many of the same
risks, particularly with regards to

the possibility that they would put
functionality into core, or that we would

somehow fall foul of their terms and
conditions or something like that, because

we would be selling on a marketplace.

And actually we don't
do that with WordPress.

We're not dependent much on dot org.

We're not on the WooCommerce marketplace.

So we do sell independently at the
moment, but I see that as being

countered by the greater diversification.

Yes, maybe something will go
wrong, but we're aiming to

build multiple Shopify apps.

So if something went wrong with one of
them, that wouldn't kill the business.

and also the fact that.

As an ecosystem, it is actually
feeling a bit more secure because

of all the uncertainty in WordPress.

So while we're not looking at, reducing
our presence in WordPress in any sense

at all, going into, very well, reputable
platform like Shopify that, there's

a lot of respect for the leadership.

They seem to have very clear strategy
and they are very heavily investing in

promoting that platform is attractive to
me, although I do acknowledge those risks.

Matt: Yeah, you finally say, okay, I'm,
I'm going to tell the team we're going

to go in the direction of Shopify.

we're gonna have to start
developing for Shopify.

what is that like?

How, how does the,
what's the team reaction?

Was it a conscious team decision?

and how do you start like, I don't
know, divvying up the hours or like

the, the conscious effort to learn
how to do it, just like you had to

learn how to make a plug in, how do
you do that for the Shopify world?

Katie: It was really my decision.

on my own, I suppose, although I
talked to other people about it.

And, then after doing lots of research and
thinking and talking in private to other

WordPress people, actually, I had a lot
of calls with WordPress people that have

Shopify experience as well, including some
quite high profile people with a lot of

experience, and that was really helpful.

And they were very
positive about the idea or.

going into Shopify as well.

So that gave me more confidence.

So once I was very sure about the idea, I
told the team and I worded it in a careful

way about, Not like this is a disaster.

We need to escape WordPress
or anything like that.

but given that there is more uncertainty
than there was before I have decided

that the Most secure option for
barn 2's future is to start building

products for Shopify As well as
continuing with our WordPress products

So I tried to word it in a reassuring
way and it seems to go really well.

The team was really positive and excited
about it The support team quickly

started having internal discussions
about whether they could support Shopify,

and they decided that they would.

And the developers were
really positive as well.

a lot of them were very excited
about the idea, technically,

of building for Shopify.

Because it would be a new challenge,
and they'd heard good things about it.

And some of them had particular
skills, like Laravel and React

and things like that, that they
thought would be really relevant.

Because I was very unsure at the
beginning, should this even be BALM2?

Or should I just set up a completely
different brand, hire Shopify

experts, and have totally different
people developing and supporting it?

And the more I got into it, the
more it did feel like BALM2.

We have an established software company.

We have a support team.

We have a QA person, we have
developers with lots of skills.

And the more I got into it, the
more it felt like it's no different

really to building another plugin.

my, I consulted with my head of
development about the technical.

Options, because with Shopify, you can
basically use any programming language or

platform and then it connects to Shopify.

It's, you don't have to use, say Ruby,
which Shopify itself is built in.

so my head of development
immediately had a proposal.

He'd obviously thought about
it before and wrote some really

great technical guidelines.

The other part of your question was about
allocating resources and that was a big

decision because I have loads of ideas.

for our existing WordPress plug in.

So, I tried to think what is likely
to have the biggest impact on revenue

if I add this extra feature to a
plug in or if we have a Shopify app.

So, first of all I thought, okay,
I'll put one developer on Shopify.

We've got About five I think in total
and then as things got more uncertain

with the more in core stuff I started
to think well, this is worrying Maybe I

don't want to add all these features to
a product that's likely to go into core

or something similar So then i've now
moved two developers to Shopify starting

from the new year, which is quite a
big proportion of the team So my first,

Matt: Yeah, the, I, I think it's
smart for you to continue with, both

product catalogs being on Barn2.

Because, like you said, established
brand, you're a software company

already, and, and, I think there's
a particular advantage there because

there are people, it, it, it kind
of helps, you expose Shopify people

to WooCommerce and vice versa.

So if a customer ever just says, you know
what, it's, I want to go to Shopify now,

at least you have an offering for them.

Right?

You know, and, same thing.

Customer goes, yeah, I
want to leave Shopify.

I want to go to this WooCommerce thing.

You have a suite of products there.

And I think that's just a healthy
way to build out your ecosystem.

So I think what I'm hearing is, is
it as easy, with air quotes, for

you to just take one of your top
WooCommerce plugins and just say,

okay, let's replicate this for Shopify.

Do you have that first Shopify product?

idea in mind and if so can you share
it or are you still planning it out?

Katie: my starting point for deciding
on App Ideas was our plugins,

because I know, I understand the
market in WooCommerce for that.

So it felt like a sensible
starting point because I wouldn't

be totally starting from scratch.

Technically, it's not that much
use because we built them as

plugins, we didn't build them to
be used across multiple platforms.

So it wouldn't save that
much development time.

But from a research perspective, I
started there and it was interesting

because sometimes during the research,
I would find these insights through

my WooCommerce knowledge that I felt
that the Shopify market was missing.

So, for example, I typed for a
particular keyword and the things

that came up weren't what I think
people mean by that keyword.

I thought, Hmm.

This is interesting.

Do Shopify people use
different terminology or have I

identified a gap in the market?

so, We we have decided on two initial
ideas which are related but not identical

to our current plugins Which I haven't
announced yet, but it's very recent

decisions, so i'm not going to say but

Matt: sure.

Katie: But that is a
useful starting point.

although there's a lot different.

I've discovered some things in
Shopify that Very different to how the

WooCommerce extensions approach it.

And, actually yesterday I planned a
new feature for one of my WooCommerce

plugins that I'd seen all the
Shopify apps in that space have.

And I don't think any WooCommerce
ones on the market have that feature.

So I thought, Oh, that's a
good opportunity to improve

our WooCommerce business.

So, hopefully everything will benefit.

I

Matt: How, I, I think I have an idea
because I, I once again saw one of your

tweets, how are you starting to learn
more about Shopify, the community, I

think one of the advantages companies
have in the WordPress space, I like

to think so anyway, is that there are
a lot of us making WordPress content

and media, your podcast, your YouTube
channel, my stuff, countless of our

friends and colleagues that make content.

I think it's easy.

And we've seen this with Omni send, right?

I think it was easy for Omni send
to come into the WordPress space

from their Shopify experience
and, and look at us and go.

Okay, there's like 12 content
creators, a podcast, YouTube channels

that we can sponsor and learn
from, and we just, we just need

to dive into, you know, this set.

Is, does that exist in the Shopify world?

Is that how you're learning, how you're
trying to get exposure and start to build

up the, the Barn2 brand in that space?

Or is it slightly different or maybe
a little bit more, complicated?

Katie: think a lot of people in WordPress
seem to have prejudice against Shopify as

an ecosystem because it's not open source.

And I've met people at WordCamps
that have said things about how it's

not as friendly and people don't
support each other, but actually so

far that hasn't been my experience.

I, for example, I've watched lots of
YouTube videos from previous Shopify

conferences, which are just like WordCamps
from what I can see, with product

people standing on stage and sharing
how they made their app so successful.

And there are newsletters that
I've found, actually one of my

team members found, about how to
build a successful Shopify app.

There's lots of advice about that on the
Shopify app store, for obvious reasons.

They want people to build successful apps.

And, but when I've been tweeting,
it's also been interesting because

Shopify people have started to follow
me and have reached out several,

maybe two or three, offering advice.

And actually straight after this
interview, I've got a call with a Shopify

app seller just to give me advice and
share his experiences and people that I

don't know and I'm not in that space yet
are being really friendly and reaching out

to help me as well as the WordPress people
that know Shopify that are doing the same.

So I found, although it's kind of scary,
like learning a whole new platform

when I just know how WooCommerce
works and how customers think.

I am finding that the
resources are available.

Matt: Yeah, well, I'll definitely set
you up with, with Jordan if you don't,

if you're not already friendly with
him, you might not get the, the glowing

review of Shopify, but you'll certainly
get, you know, a real honest take and,

it obviously been a few years since he's
been in the Shopify world, but he can

definitely tell you, maybe what to avoid.

Katie Keith, barn2.

com, WP product talk show, check
them out on YouTube as well,

search for Barn2 on YouTube.

Katie Keith, where else
can folks go to say thanks?

Katie: Yeah, well, the main place
to connect with me individually, as

you've probably gathered from this
interview, would be my Twitter,

which is Katie Keith Bantu.

Matt: Awesome stuff everybody else
the WP minute comm the WP minute comm

slash subscribe It's the number one
way to stay connected and we'll see you

I think in the new year at this point
if I did all my scheduling correctly.

All right, everybody I'll
see you in the next episode