The WP Minute+

Matt: It's an emergency pod.

Mark Szymanski.

That's what we're doing today.

An emergency pod.

Never thought I would stoop
so low, but here we are.

Emergency.

It's not an emergency.

Listen, we're going to happy
to have everybody, joining

this emergency live pod today.

I don't even like the word pod.

I rally against that word, quite
often in the podcasting space, but

we're going to just have a discussion
because it's fresh in our mind.

Really.

At least it is for me.

watching some live streams this
morning, I'll show those in a moment.

We're going to talk about the
sort of frustrations that a

lot of folks have been sharing.

Not just this year, but for the last
20 years of WordPress, and how we've

sort of maybe got to this point.

And I think that, Hey, things are exactly
the same, as they were a decade ago, 15

years ago, except now, Hey, there's more
people, there's much more attention on it.

And we're really dissecting a
lot of the same challenges, that

we've had, For many, many years.

So happy to have people join this
conversation and happy to be here with

you, Mark Szymanski, as always, not just
listening to your voicemails, but seeing

your wonderful face live on YouTube.

It's always a pleasure, Matt.

Thank you so much for
having me, as always.

Do you want to tee up
while I coordinate this?

Do you want to tee up today's
live stream that we watch?

I'm going to pull it up so we
can see it, but Paul Charlton

launched, went live today, but can
you tee that up for the audience?

Let them know what it was, that
was going down, what the topic was

and what we're going to react to.

Mark: Yeah.

You know what I can give maybe.

some speculative context
to around it a little bit.

So obviously we have the Bridge
Builder series, Matt Eastwood

is the, you know, the head of
that with me, Brendan O'Connell.

And, we had a recent episode,
it was on Friday with, Anne

Beauvelette and, Max Seibel.

And that was a pretty interesting thing.

But the reason I think that's related
is cause we clipped out a piece of that

where Anne was specifically talking
about, like kind of like influencers

and like, do we have a, As influencers
and WordPress people like that, people

that have audiences, should we kind
of talk more about, and create kind

of dialogue, like more, kind of like
the idea of like contributing more

directly to WordPress rather than just
like kind of like shouting out our

opinions into the void, and seeing like
who follows that and stuff like that.

Which, obviously, big topic,
we'd have to dissect all that.

But I feel like maybe this was, a
little bit, kind of related to that.

Regardless if it was directly
related, it definitely had, you

know, the same topic to talk about.

so it's just back and forth a little bit
on that, and that is what, I was really

excited to see this live stream today.

So, I saw it came up in my subscriptions,
and, Paul, WP Toots, for some of you guys

that may not know his name, Paul Charlton,
put that up there, and it was him, Imran

from WebSquadron, Mark Crowell from,
WikiDesign, and also Jeffrey at Lightbox.

all great content creators.

So, yeah, it was a really good
live stream that, that they put on.

And, I know I was watching it,
Matt was watching it, a lot of

other people were watching it,
and we just had a lot of ideas.

So that's kind of where we are right
now, just kind of giving our thoughts.

Because this is a very important topic,
regardless of your opinion on it.

There's a lot of nuance here that needs

Matt: So I threw in the chat for
right now, the clip from the Bridge

Builders series, with Amber Vallette.

And, right up on the screen as well,
we have Paul Charlton, friend of the

show, and, Imran from WebSquadron,
I've never synced up with him, although

I would love to, you know, but he,
they switched the, the live stream

over to his channel because Paul
was having some connection issues.

It's always going to come off probably
in the wrong light that we're doing,

that we're doing this and reacting to
this video because obviously I have

some strong opinions on, some of the
answers or some of the commentary in

today's, I am, obviously a proponent
of, of open source fan of WordPress.

I think everyone generally always
throws out the general statement

that we're all fans of WordPress and
we just want to see it do better.

I have a particular angle,
as you know, Mark, and a lot

of people watching the show.

You know, I have this
particular angle on WordPress.

What that means to, to, to love
WordPress, wanted to see it

succeed and to also criticize it.

I've been a critic of
WordPress for many years.

Primarily though at the,
the leadership level.

Not so much the, the
software side of things.

Like, yeah, of course there are things
where I wish this could be better.

But I've never been One, to be hyper
critical of how things are getting done.

because, while I, appreciate designing
a good product, I also, as somebody

who has, I've developed products before
from the product developer standpoint,

not the actual punching the code into
the, into the computer perspective.

I appreciate a good product, I
appreciate the process, and I

can understand why things end
up maybe being the way they are.

but I'm not a front end designer, I'm not
a JavaScript expert, so I can't debate

or, or give hypercritical feedback on how
something is done, or at least I don't

feel like I can't, I should give that
kind of feedback because I can't do it.

Right?

So like, I'm not the guy who's going
to tell people, hey, it should be, you

know, we discussed this with Kevin, it
should be whatever, 768 pixels by default.

I mean, I'm not the guy to tell you that.

I'm just the guy that says this works
for me or it doesn't, you know, so

that's, that's like my perspective
on it, but, I highlighted a couple

topics from today's discussion.

I think you maybe jotted some down.

Let me just tell you the topics, some
of the topics that I pulled and then

we'll, we'll, we'll jump into them.

So I wrote things down
from today's live stream.

If I can find it, I sent it to you.

Here it is.

So like open source versus
ownership, I want to talk about

that today and highlight a post
that I've, that I've written and,

and, and highlight one from DHH.

From Basecamp and Ruby on Rails fame.

the automatic apparatus, like it
could be a five hour episode just

talking about the automatic apparatus.

but I do want to talk about that because
some of the feedback that I heard in

today's live stream is like, I wonder
if people understand, I mean, I don't,

I don't think I fully understand it,
either, but I feel like I have a strong

understanding of how automatic works.

And I want to just highlight
some of that today, contributing

and what that means like time
versus payment versus not for me.

That's probably the biggest, thorn
in my side from today's, from

observing today's live stream.

yeah.

Which we'll break apart in a little
bit and, prioritizing features.

So open source versus ownership,
automatic, the apparatus contributing

versus, being paid or versus not for me.

And then how, how did we end up here?

Like, how did these
features get prioritized?

those are my big four.

Did you have some big takeaways
today that you want to punch into?

Mark: I think that you, those
ones there summarize the big

takeaways from specifically from
the stream really, really well.

The one thing I'll say here before
we get into all of it is the same

thing that I kind of said to you in
really, in kind of a relation to that.

And it's the fact that, you know,
I'm, I consider myself like relatively

newer to the actual understanding
of how this all works rather than

just using WordPress as a tool.

And I think that the big thing that I've,
Maybe just the way that I am is like I

like to try to break things down to like
as Fundamental as possible and really

understand like the things everything
works as I'm trying to learn it.

Like I'm asking a lot of questions, right?

You know, I've had so many conversations.

I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.

I feel like the one thing that we
could all do a little bit better is

understanding that this is very nuanced
and that we kind of all need to get.

No matter who we are, like, if we're
always just getting more educated

on how everything works, then we
can have a more honest discussion

across the, across the board.

And I'm not talking about anybody
specifically, I'm just saying

that's my personal philosophy on it.

So that's why I love talking to
guys like yourself, because you guys

have been at it for a while and you
understand, the ins and outs of it.

And then, you know, we can kind of
go from there with a conversation.

So, but I like these topics.

I'm excited to chat about them.

Matt: I'm also not, you know, you say
that a lot to me and others have said

like, Hey, you've been here for, and
I, you know, I'm also of the mindset

that have I been here too long?

Yes.

Like, do I only see it
from a particular angle?

Yes.

I was just talking in the last episode
with Corey Miller on the podcast

and, you know, when I talk to folks
like you and others who just don't

understand, like, why maybe they
say word camps are the way they are.

You know, we came from a time,
I guess it's all like pre COVID,

where there were many types of
WordPress events that were happening.

Pressnomics sort of being like
a flagship business focused

WordPress event that happened,
was a company I worked at, Pagely.

And, that happened for many years.

That was, like, the thing.

Like, so many people were hyped
to go to that, because it was very

business focused, and a lot of
deals got done, and you just saw

the business side of WordPress.

Loop comp for developers, like,
there was a time where these,

like, other events were happening.

You know, so when folks come into the
community like you, like in a post COVID

world where they're kind of like trying
to figure out events again, you're

like, why, why doesn't this exist?

And I, maybe for like the old folks
in the group where it's like, oh yeah,

we had that at one time and we're
forgetting to like relay that to you or

to like understand we need that back.

Like we need these types of things back.

So it's sort of like, you know,
the waves have crashed on the

shore and they're pulling away.

Yeah.

Like, Oh yeah, at one time we had
all that and now it doesn't exist.

Let's get this stuff going for folks.

I want to talk about, let's
talk about this WordPress,

open source ownership thing.

I think this is a great post, and I should
probably pull up my own site as well.

That way we have that.

I wrote a post a couple weeks
ago called, what would we do

with the keys to the kingdom?

And I referenced, this is the post, what
would we do with the keys to the kingdom?

I'll throw that in chat as well.

I referenced this post by, David
Hanson from, Hedmeyer Hanson from

Basecamp, again, started Ruby
on Rails open source project.

And he writes, open source is
neither a community nor a democracy.

I'm not going to, obviously, read
the whole post here, but I, I implore

folks to go ahead and read this.

This is something that I think is
very true and is what triggered me

to say what would we do with the
keys to the kingdom if we had it.

Like a lot of us air our grievances
online and on live streams like this and

podcasts and blogs and Twitter threads.

What would we really do if
we were the ones in control?

I don't, I don't think
it would be any better.

In fact, I would probably
guess it would be worse.

because as David points out, like, there
needs to be somebody who's getting it

done, getting the job done, setting
the direction, and sort of, that's the

person, that's the leader of the project,
and in our case, it's, it's Mullenweg.

And I don't think, and I'm, and I fully
stand behind that as the decision.

There are things I don't like about
it, but I still fully stand behind that

decision because I still have enough,
Confidence in his ability to, to do

this with, you know, the criticisms
that I would still give along the way.

this is a fantastic piece.

I think everyone should read
this because what it's saying

is like, Yeah, you don't own it.

Like, we don't own this.

That's the thing.

Like, we, it's, it's open source and we
can kind of fall into this, gray area

where, Oh my God, like this is ours.

We all have this say, but we don't.

in the, in the fundamental direction
of where the project is going.

We can have say on little things
that happen along the way.

I get, and I talked about this last week.

I think it was you live when, we got
our little feature put into WordPress 6.

6.

Perfect example.

It was showed up.

We, we said something, we made a post on
GitHub, an issue, people developed it.

It went in, we got credit.

Like, that's awesome.

That's the cool thing about open
source and you can make these changes.

Massive fundamental direction.

We're probably going to have
less of a chance to have that,

to have that opportunity for us
because we're not in control.

Open source doesn't mean we own it.

We can just partake in it.

that's just my particular view.

I'd love to have your
thoughts on that mark.

If you have something else.

Mark: Yeah, for sure.

So I hadn't ever seen that article
and I know we were talking about it

last week and you sent that to me.

I would highly recommend if you
guys haven't read that article,

from DHH, it's great stuff.

I think the thing that it, it, it
pointed out to me, because again,

I'm trying to navigate this space and
understand like where everybody's like

kind of mentally at with a lot of this.

I do think there's some absolutely
just across the board again.

To differing degrees definitely some
misunderstanding between like what open

source is and what that actually means
From my understanding currently where

i'm at for my framework is open source
doesn't mean anything really about the

community per se It's more so much more
about like the licensing of the software.

So like gpl version 2 I was actually
looking it up today because i'm trying

to Wrap my head around this too.

Like it, when something says it's
open source, it's just meaning

like the software licensing.

Right.

And correct me if I'm wrong.

So it's like, you can see,
anyone can see the code.

They can reuse the code.

They can fork the code, whatever.

But ultimately, there's more to it
than that, but I'm saying it doesn't

inherently mean that you own it as
like a community member probably

doesn't even really mean that you're
entitled to an, like an opinion or your.

Or your feature set per se,
like, like it, not inherently.

So then that's where all these
other things come into play.

And it's like, everybody uses WordPress
and they get, they hear the word open

source and they kind of get, sounds
like a little bit misled to the fact

that like, Oh, you can, like, you can
just basically just scream what you

want to happen and then it can happen.

I, I contradict that slightly though
with the fact that I don't think

that would be like a bad thing,
but it doesn't seem like that's

inherently the way that it operates.

so again, this is just kind of me
trying to think of like, okay, how

is it, how does it actually work?

And then is there a way to make
it better or something like that?

But, I think the bottom line is again,
the open source side of things, I

think that word and that terminology
and the way that it's thrown around

sometimes does, I don't, I think
it's just a slight misunderstanding.

Perhaps from what I've seen here,
because, I dunno, that's, I'm still

navigating myself, like I said, but
that's kind of where I'm at with it.

Matt: Yeah.

It's, I totally understand because
I get caught up in that, as well.

Sorry, I'm just playing with my, I
turned my gain instead of my volume.

I get caught up in that as well
because I, I feel like I love it too.

And I feel like I want this ownership
and, I feel like I want this ownership

and WordPress is in an interesting spot
because unlike, let's say, Ruby on Rails,

which is what, DHH is mostly referring
to, like, he built, I don't even know

what the technical term is, he built
that coding framework, that code base to

make his own products, and the byproduct
was, oh, this is now open source, you

too can go build your own products like
I'm doing over here with Basecamp, right?

So So, he built like this, what I'll
call like the engine of, of Basecamp

back in the day to help him build that
product and, oh, by the way, I'm open

sourcing this so you can do that too.

It, it, WordPress, on the other hand, was
created open source and then Automatic was

built to help sell the dream of WordPress
and they're the same exact products.

So it's, it's, it's very
hard to, to understand.

Get yourself away, like pull
yourself away from that.

and say, oh, this is, this is mine
because I can do it on any website.

I can, I can build it, I
can make it, it's all mine.

But really, it's not.

the GPL and Open Source affords you
to go ahead and do other things,

but like the overall direction of
where this is going is not ours.

And I think it's high time that we
understand that, be okay with it, because

I've said this a million times, I don't
want to get into it now, but I think

Automatic needs to survive in order to be
the best steward of Open Source WordPress.

Mark: I think we need, I think
we need, I think we need to dig

into that though for a second.

I don't know.

We're gonna.

Yeah.

Okay.

Matt: Yeah, we'll, yeah,
we'll dig into that.

Okay.

So let's just talk about
Automattic, the apparatus.

Because one of the, one of the things
that came up in that conversation was,

Oh, Automattic has like 900 million.

What are they doing with all that money?

And, and this is where, this is
where I have like, a fundamental

difference in like content creators.

And I don't want this to come off.

As like super disrespectful, but it's like
if you're going to, to, to criticize us,

try to understand as much as possible of,
of where all of the chips lie in this, in

this game, of automatic and open source.

let me pull up Automattic's
website and then we can share this.

And this is great information for
anybody who's never really, you

know, taken a look at this stuff.

Don't forget, been living and
breathing this stuff for a while now.

So, I can understand
how it can be helpful.

It can get overwhelming.

So let's just take a look at this page.

This is Automattic's homepage.

Here are all the products that they
are, that they have listed here, which,

I don't even, yeah, so WordPress.

com, Beeper, Tumblr, Day
One, WooCommerce, Jetpack.

WordPress VIP, which is
enterprise level hosting if you've

never, run across that before.

Pocketcast, which is a podcast,
app, podcast listening app.

Akismet, which is the spam
protection, product that they

launched, many, many years ago.

Longreads, Newspack, Gravatar, and
then they also contribute WordPress.

org.

And then all these other, open
source initiatives, WordPress for

Android, WordCamp, WPJobManager,
Five for the Future, right?

So that's just automatic,
like the core products.

And then automatic is also investing
and purchasing other companies.

they had invested in Castos, which
is a company that I worked at before.

InstaWP, they've, done
seed round investments in.

Other WordPress, hosting companies,
they've done investments in.

This is like that traditional VC
world, that maybe folks aren't just

acquainted to, but it's not just, hey,
we're giving, they're giving money

to Automatic to just do WordPress.

It's all the things.

at, at Automatic where
that money goes, right?

2, 000 ish people work at that company.

If we just take a look at CrunchBase,
which is some of this data now is

locked behind a, payment, payment wall.

But recently in the WP Product Talk,
interview with Mullenweg, they were

talking about the size of the company.

He's just over 2, 000 ish
people now, at Automatic.

And they're Recent funding round
came from, Where they hide it now?

Let's see.

So the last one, it says 2021.

Automatic was funded by 30
investors of Iron Global, BlackRock

being the most recent investors.

BlackRock should raise some
eyebrows, of course, for some people.

Automatic has made 19 investments.

The most recent was last year, Liquid AI.

It's a, it, in their recent
acquisition of Beeper, 125

million, that's a, messaging app.

and they're, looks like they're getting
more into the, into the messaging game.

This is, the point I'm trying to make
here is 2, 000 people, if you've ever

worked in an organization with 100 people,
let alone 2, 000 people, it is extremely

difficult to move things forward.

I'm not saying that this is The right
thing, I'm just saying like this is what

happens when you have an organization
that grows this large, who's also

trying to build a profitable company.

If you look at somebody like GoDaddy
publicly traded company, I think

automatic roughly valued at 7 billion
from blog posts and stuff that you see.

but you look at somebody like
a GoDaddy and you start to see

their profitability, their market
cap, their amount of employees.

And you're like, well, Boy,
they're also profiting, profiting

off the back of WordPress.

Why don't they do more?

And they do.

They do a lot, in the community.

But, this is where that frustration grows
at the sort of enterprise and big level.

Whereas, Automatic isn't bad just
because it's getting a lot of money.

There's a lot of other
companies with a lot more money.

Also profiting off of WordPress, who
should also fall under scrutiny and

contribute back to WordPress as well.

So, I just have a fundamental issue when
it's like, they've got all this money,

why aren't they making WordPress better?

Because look at all the stuff that
they're doing, and it's not 2, 000 people

just making WordPress better, right?

Of those 2, 000 people, I don't know how
many people are in administrative, right?

200 people, 10 percent of the
company are in HR, comms, like

all this other stuff, legal.

you know, then you have a executive
team and then you have support

staff and then you have the product
managers and marketers and SEO

people, like, it's a big company.

and it's, they're not all just pouring
their resources into, into WordPress.

does that make sense to you, Mark?

Mark: You know, I mean, it definitely
does make sense, and I hear where you're

coming from with the number thing.

Yeah, it definitely, you know,
900 million, I'm sure that doesn't

obviously all go to, like, the WordPress
project, because Automatic raised that.

I mean, that makes
sense, totally on paper.

I mean, but again, like, I feel like

I always just try to ask questions.

And then the next question I would have
is, Okay, who, who is, I want to know

exactly as, as, as good of data as we
have, which I know we do have some, I'm

sure we could like find some or whatever
on the actual WordPress project stuff.

But like I've seen those graphs of like,
Okay, automatic is like the biggest

chunk of supporters, like people writing
code, and then like GoDaddy is in

there, or you know, 10Up is in there,
people contributing to actual WordPress.

So one of my questions is, I know
half the answer to it, but one

of my questions is okay, who is
actually contributing to WordPress?

So for instance, when anybody goes on the
internet and says, Hey, this sucks about

WordPress, like the, this feature, this
UI, UX, whatever, like I don't like this.

Who is that specifically?

Specifically who made that decision?

to make that, to put that in there,
or to change something or whatever.

So like, how does that actually work?

Because I feel like that's a big problem
where, you know, in, in private companies

you don't, or, you know, public, but
like, you know, actual corporations.

Like, you don't really have that
full clarity, but maybe you'll have

like some sort of like a leadership
type chart and things like that,

and you'll be able to kind of like
decipher some things or whatever.

But like, ultimately you're just
yelling at Apple, for instance,

Oh, they changed something.

Oh, we hate Apple.

So with WordPress, I feel like it ends
up just being kind of the same way,

even though it doesn't operate the exact
same way, I want to say, like, cause

there's just seemingly people getting
paid from automatic, there's people

getting paid at 10 up, there's people
getting paid at GoDaddy to sponsor a

certain amount of hours to this project.

Right.

Right.

And then.

I don't know the, I don't know the answer
here, but there's also free labor, right?

That is, that is contributing to it.

So that screws with people as well, like
just mentally, which totally makes sense.

It's like, who, who is
like contributing for free?

Like, how does that work?

and then you have conversations
like we'll probably get into like,

well, why would I contribute?

Regardless of code, why would I contribute
in GitHub or Slack or wherever for free?

Because people are making
money from me doing this.

And then the rebuttal to that is like,
well, you contributing is how the open

source project continues to flow forward.

So it's kind of like you are
helping yourself, even though

you're not getting paid.

There's a lot of, I just expressed
a lot of different things there.

But I'm telling you, like, this is
from like, we'll call it like more

boots on the ground type thing.

I'm in the comments.

I'm in, you know, making content.

I'm watching other people's streams.

I'm on Twitter.

These are the types of questions that
people just don't know the answers to.

And it's not really their fault
because it's so goddamn nuanced.

that it's, it's so difficult.

Like I've spent the last 12 months
of my life trying to figure this out.

And I consider myself to be kind of
of this mindset where I can dive in

and deal with this and try to figure
it out and try to piece it out.

And one of my goals is to hopefully
come out on the other side and be

like, Hey, this is really nuanced,
but here's like a crash course because

I haven't seen anything like that.

I wish I wish something
like that would exist.

so I don't

Matt: Once again, like
understanding the value of open

source and, and what we have.

So in my post, what would you
do the keys of the kingdom?

I say, look, it's, it's totally
fine to be a critic, to be critical.

Obviously, if you're not bashing
people, I think everybody says that.

and everyone says, yes, I love, I love
WordPress, but what you have to just

understand is where the value of open
source gives you the ability to build your

own business on the back of WordPress.

is quite powerful and
also very understated.

I think it came up in Paul's live
stream today where somebody said,

well, what would happen if it was five?

I don't think you wouldn't get this
kind of amplification for WordPress

and it certainly would not have grown
this large for obvious reasons if it

wasn't, open source and you won't be
able to do that with another platform.

Like you simply can't do it with a
commercial Wix Squarespace, platform.

Webflow, because those are all hosted
things and there's no portability

there, it's just off the table.

So you have to be able to say, I value
that ability for me to just take this,

start a business, replicate it with as
many sites as I want without being taxed.

Right?

Mark: Is there a way, can I throw a monkey
wrench in here for just a second Doug?

Cause you have said this many times to me,
and while I don't disagree with it, I do

think that this is kind of where we talk
about the, you know, the the current gen

versus the next gen and stuff like that.

Like from what I see, and I'm not saying
this is, I don't have data per se, but

from what I see, people are becoming more
and more and more casual and carefree

about like losing control of their data.

And I don't know if that is like
something that can be stopped.

So, you know, we don't need
to go down a rabbit hole here.

All I'm saying is like, when you make
the claim of this is open source and

you can't, you're like, you're not
going to have the same impact with

something that's not open source.

I'm not, I'm not saying
that I want that to happen.

I'm just saying that like people are
so, so quick to just give up their shit

nowadays that like they don't even think
like these, like, and again, I'm not, I'm

not, I'm not trying to judge these people.

I'm making observations.

They watch a Wix ad and they're
like, this is fantastic.

Super easy.

I'm going to, I'm just going
to jump on there and use it.

Like they don't even think twice about.

Like, where is this data?

What's going to happen if this,
if these people jack up my rights?

What's going to happen if like I say
something and they kick me off here?

Like, they don't think about
any of that until it happens.

So and, and if those things continue
to happen, maybe people will care more.

But I'm saying like, I mean, you
know, the phones that we have and the

different things like, I mean, the
phones is a great example because we

have Apple and we have Google basically.

And then we have like, you know, these
other types of phones where it's like,

Oh, you don't have, you know, not
connected to the internet or whatever.

So I'm not trying to get off topic
here, but I'm saying that I, I wouldn't

just like, you Make it seem like
this is always going to be the case,

because there's It doesn't seem like
it's even trending in that direction.

It seems like it's
trending away from that.

Matt: Yeah, you gotta, open source isn't
just about, Oh, this is, this is my data.

Like, that's not the, that's not the
argument for open source and data.

and in fact, like, what data do
I actually have on my website?

When you, people just
think of data, right?

I immediately go to, well, Every
single one of my credit cards have been

compromised by, you know, by, by them.

AT& T was, and they sent out
an email and they're like,

here's how you can protect it.

moving forward.

How about you protect my data?

You're like, why are you yelling
at me and telling me not to

answer phone calls from Spain?

You know, the market is spam.

You're the one that got breached.

So there's data like your customer data,
your customer identifying, information.

And in WordPress, I think people
kind of throw that around.

It's certainly about the
content, in your WordPress site.

And for me, it's much more of
that, like, technical reason,

is I can be portable with it.

I can, I can take that content from one
web host to another web host, or I can

extract it, or archive it how and when I
want, and I can manipulate that, right?

So, yes, WordPress allows you to do that.

And yes, WordPress is, is open source.

you know, so, I, I think that the
argument is, for open source for

the, for the reason that we're going
to jump into, you know, right now.

And one of the things, let me
just share the screen again.

One of the things that come up, and I'm
going to try to zoom in and do this so

that it's as easily Readable as possible.

I'm trying to do it with two hands here.

Hold on one second.

So zoom in.

So this is the, the Gutenberg GitHub, repo
WordPress doesn't operate, and, either

Zach or or Brian, if you're in there.

none of the, the comments, for
WordPress core are in GitHub.

This is, that is all in, track
and WordPress legacy, like SVN.

It's That's a whole other stream that
we can go into, but if we look at

just Gutenberg, because they are using
GitHub for all of the communication

here, this is the value of, this is
the other value of open source, right,

is that we can actually see it and
see this stuff being developed, right?

Sure, are things happening
behind the scenes?

That are not being, you know,
documented and they're in slack.

The conversations are happening in slack.

Absolutely.

Do I think it's nefarious?

No, it's just the way of life, right?

It's like you have conversations
with, if you're, if you're at a job

and you have a meeting with somebody,
you're talking to them in zoom or in

person, that stuff isn't documented.

Things happen, right?

So.

So, what this open source project
allows us is to see the stuff happen

and we can analyze it and also comment
on it and, and see it in real time.

So when people say, why did they do that?

We can see it right here, in
something like, like GitHub,

especially for the Gutenberg project.

So that's what this open
source project affords us.

It affords us that, that visibility.

This is also a, a hat
tip to version control.

Mark, you and I talk about this a lot.

This is all done in GitHub, a version
control type of, tool so that we can

go back and see everything that's
happened, over the course of all

of their releases, tie it back.

To a particular thing.

So add example for query
block and post lists.

This is the issue where
it all sort of stem from.

You can now click that and
say, why did they do that?

And you can see it was started,
by a particular person.

I don't know exactly what this is.

Add example for query
block and post lists.

But as an example, you can see
what the, the thing was, why.

Exists should exist, how it's going to
get done examples, so on and so forth.

And you can track the whole thing
and see it all come together.

on GitHub, if we go, can I jump in here?

Yeah, go for it.

Mark: Okay.

So, so I just had kind of like a
moment here where I like pieced

a bunch of things together.

There's a general sentiment that

not backed by data, but there's a
general sentiment that like GitHub and

the Slack, this, that whole situation,
which again, Difficult to manage

something of this size, but GitHub and
Slack and like in track, I don't know

what track is, but like, I haven't
gotten there yet, but like all these

different things to like manage this
open source project, people have said,

and we've actually seen, we have seen.

examples of this on, on Twitter and
stuff like that or X or whatever,

like to say like, Oh, you know,
the code base is getting kind

of like, it's hard to jump in.

It's hard to like, understand
different things like that.

It's hard to get involved
in all that sort of stuff.

Because I mean, there's probably a
reasonable amount of people that have

never used GitHub or don't use it
like frequently enough to understand

kind of what's going on there.

I'm not saying it shouldn't
be hard or whatever.

But like, there's a
general sentiment there.

I feel like it is hard to get involved,
or people don't know where to start.

I have personally educated people
after I learned from guys like you,

how to go where to go things like that.

So I think we're moving in the
right direction there, but it

is kind of difficult there.

I don't have an answer for that.

But I want to reference that article
that you made and you had me read

with from DHH where he mentions
in there It's not a democracy.

It's not like a community It's more of
like there's a level of elitism and it's

not in a bad way the elitism But it's like
a level of elitism I I relate that in this

case to like you have to understand how
to use these tools You have to understand

the language that's going on You have to
understand the the way to get involved and

actually It's a way for you to actually
impact and do something if you want.

Which is interesting to me because
you juxtapose that with the idea

of democratizing publishing.

Which the tool itself actually does.

Correct.

But utilize, or moving it
forward is not, those things

are disjointed from one another.

Which again, I'm not saying
is a bad thing, but it is

the reality of the situation.

So, It's just kind of a weird spot
where, like, if, if you and I weren't

having this conversation for the
last 12 months, like, there's no way

anybody would understand that whole,
that whole juxtaposition of all that.

Matt: Yeah.

Because it's

Mark: way too nuanced.

Matt: Well, yeah, but it's also, it's,
I don't know, unfortunate is the right

word, but it's, it's the unfortunate
sort of messiness to this where the tool

itself, is democratizing publishing,
and then the open source initiative, you

know, WordPress thriving, getting people
to contribute, Five for the Future.

And then some of those, I guess, some
of the times that those two statements

can get conflated, or mixed together.

So folks feel like, well, I thought we
were democratizing building this thing.

No, no, no.

The tool itself will help
us democratize publishing.

but what we're doing is building
this in an open source fashion.

Gutenberg as an example.

this is, the graph, and listen,
I'm not a developer, but, I can

try to understand the highway
of how we're all connected here.

This is the stats from the
repo from 2016 to 2024, when

Gutenberg project first started.

Again, it's a standalone project, and
plugin, that exists, outside of WordPress.

And, for, for many reasons.

But, one of the reasons is Matt thinks,
Matt Mullenweg thinks that this project

will be bigger and, and more adopted
potentially than, than WordPress itself.

Like Wix.

Could some, one day be like, oh
yeah, that Gutenberg thing is good,

let's bring it and adopt it into Wix.

and then therefore they would
be giving back to the Gutenberg

project, et cetera, et cetera.

and it's just, just for those that
might not know, Gutenberg stands

separate, in its own separate plug in.

So if you ever want The more advanced
features that are being developed like

this is being developed and enhanced
outside of WordPress core, right?

So there's all the features that
are happening in Gutenberg and then

there's all the features happening
in WordPress and when a WordPress

point release comes together They take
whatever the last five or six releases

from Gutenberg itself and bring it
into the into the core release, right?

That's a 50, 000 foot view of this and
But back to the main point here is when

you say who is making these decisions.

you can go in and look at
all the top contributors.

in this, in this screen
here on, on GitHub.

And you can see everybody.

And I'm not gonna punch
into everyone here.

but if we don't, if we discount,
this chap here who hasn't contributed

since roughly 2020, middle of 2020.

the top ten contributors, not
counting this person, out of

the top ten contributors, eight
of them are from Automatic.

two of them, one is, from GoDaddy.

let's see if I can see him.

If you just hover over folks names,
depends if they filled out their

profile, but you can see, if they're
getting paid from Automatic, or if

they work for Automatic, it's not like
it says, we get paid by Automatic.

I think this is the
person right here, yeah.

So this, this is actually the, the, the
chap that helped Brian put our, our,

our little feature together, at the end.

He gets sponsored by
Loose Inc., L O O S Inc.

so he's not Automatic, and
there's one other person here

on the list from, from GoDaddy.

The rest here are, are Automatic,
but they're not Automatic.

That's just the top 10, and then you can
go back and see, like, okay, who, who

are all these other folks getting, you
know, contributing to, Gutenberg, right?

So if we go and we look at this
person, it may or may not say it.

Yep, so at Automatic,
he works at Automatic.

And that's the other thing that this open
source world affords us, is we can kind

of see who's putting this all together.

and who's making the decisions
here, and at least easily here

with, with the Gutenberg thing.

So when folks are like, Oh yeah,
I wish it had this feature.

I wish it had that feature.

And you, and then you look at automatic,
this is the going back to the bigger

issue is you look at our magnet,
why are they making these decisions?

They have all this money.

Because this is just one sliver of a
project that Automatic is paying people

to contribute to which basically helps us.

Whether you like Gutenberg or not, and
you don't think it's moving fast enough,

all that work is contributing back to
us and our customers and our friends

and our clients who use this stuff.

Hopefully getting better and
iterating better year after year.

they're the one footing the most
amount of payroll out of those

2, 000 people and millions and
millions of dollars that they have.

They're the ones contributing
the most to WordPress.

What does that lead to?

That leads to that sort of elitism
and, control, and direction.

you know, that, You can or cannot agree
with, totally up to you on whether

or not, you know, you, you want to.

but this is where, when you're
saying who's doing it, you can

kind of come and see it right here.

Back to the issue I had on the stream,
is, You know, when, I'm frustrated too,

and actually I thought about doing it.

I'm not going to do it today, on
today's live stream, but this is a

frustration that Paul brought up,
that I've brought up, and many other

people have brought up before, is
like, why is, why are all these other

settings behind the three dots, right?

The three dots, the infamous three dots.

Why can't I just expose that forever?

How would you do it?

You would come here to, let's
say, Gutenberg, because I would

believe that would be, that would
fall under a Gutenberg issue.

So I would believe that would
fall under a Gutenberg issue.

And you would open a ticket just
like I open a ticket about putting

the command in the command palette
for getting to template parts.

You, too, could come in here and say,
I want that three dots to be exposed

every time I go into a WordPress site.

I don't want to have to
do it every single time.

I agree.

How do you make that presentation?

How do you propose that?

You come here, you make the issue,
and you start writing the proposal.

But you can't just be like,
Ah, I just want this thing.

You know, yell it into the void,
and then hope it gets done.

Just not gonna happen.

So, if you really want it, come here,
open an issue, And then, then you'll see

how software is really made because it,
there's just one set of vocal people like

you, me, and others who get this stuff,
but WordPress is being used by so many

other people that it's not just for us.

And that, I think that's what
that folks who are so vocal

about this need to realize.

Mark: Got it.

That totally makes sense.

Yeah.

I mean,

I think, you know, as a content
creator, obviously we get wrapped up

sometimes in like making the content
for our audience who is, you know,

supporting us, but, you know, we don't
really have any power if we're not

like going in and doing this stuff.

It's amazing.

I think it was Brendan.

I was talking to him today and it's,
it's pretty incredible that we do

have the opportunity to do this.

You know, we can't go into the get
hubs of, you know, other big stuff, you

know, big, players or wixes or whatever,
you know, and do that sort of thing.

So it is definitely something I
should do a lot more, and I think

that I just may, if I actually see
something that I disagree with.

Like, I think that three dot
thing is a great example.

I mean, just the question that I would
have in response to that, though, is

How are these decisions
getting made initially though?

Like, like I think, okay, here's the
perspective that I get from some people.

How did it get to this point where
like so many people, even like

supporters, Think that there's so
many weird things about the platform.

And again, I'm not going to say that I
sit here and use Gutenberg every day.

I don't.

Okay.

But I'm saying that like you, you get
that from people that are actually in

there often and they're like, and then,
and then people that are exploring it

often from a deeper base, not just the
UI, but like the code and like the way

it interacts with other third party
tools and things like that, and it's

like, how did it get to that level?

Is it, is it, is it literally just.

If you go in there and just have a
suggestion, like what's the actual

process for making that happen?

You know, like, how, who, who's the
end decider of like, if, if the, if

the command palette should have the
template part thing show up in it, that

seems like a pretty straightforward one.

But like, that would be my next, my
next line of thinking is, because I

think that is definitely something that
some, that people have said as well.

It's like, well, they're doing that
cost benefit analysis in their head.

They're like, okay,
well, I can make content.

I could talk about some stuff.

I could talk about all
these different things.

Okay.

That I know that that is
working to some extent.

I know that that's resonating with people.

I know that people are, you
know, appreciating that content.

It's thought provoking.

Okay.

So then somebody comes to me and they
say, Hey, you know, you should really

go into the GitHub and, and write
all this stuff up and do all these

different things to, to make sure
that these actually get pushed in.

Fair, fair thing.

Fair point.

But then they're like, okay, well,
I'm not getting paid by, you know,

I'm not getting paid to, sponsored
to, to produce any of this content

or contribute or anything like that.

We already had that discussion.

It's a, it's a fair point, but
there's definitely counters to that.

But then the question becomes, if
they like, are there people like

putting stuff in, like putting
a bunch of, is there somebody is

super straightforward question.

Is there somebody in like deep in
the contribute, contributor aspect of

Gutenberg that has put in like 100 issues
and none of them have ever gotten taken?

Yeah.

So like, there, see what I'm saying?

Like, that's, that's like, why
am I even going to do that?

I'm not, I'm playing
devil's advocate here.

Why would I even like put
anything in there if it's not

going to even get like seen?

Cause then you have I could absolutely
see a case where like you have people

put stuff in there and their, their
reputation has already preceded them.

And then they're not
going to get the stuff.

This stuff isn't going
to get taken up anyway.

That's not a reason to not do it because
I think three steps ahead, if you

actually did that and put that in there
and then again, didn't get taken up.

Now you make a video and you
say, guys, I told them to do

this, and they didn't do it.

Matt: Yeah,

Mark: yeah.

So that's actually a

Matt: brilliant plan.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's a hundred percent.

And that's why punching into that
one specific issue that I have.

with the live stream today, like the
only hard criticism I have against,

the guys that, that hosted that
panel today was the fact that it was

like, it's not my job to do this.

I'm not gonna, you know,
go and, and do that.

I don't have time for that.

Well, man, if you're in this living
and breathing it and making a living

off of creating content for WordPress
and you don't have the time, I don't

think many people in the audience
are gonna have the time or the care,

or the understanding to really, You
know, follow this through, right?

They said something, Oh, 500
people watching this, maybe

50 people go and do something.

I doubt it.

If you're not going to do it and
you're representing a fact that you

won't do it, then I don't think anyone
in your audience is going to do it.

But 100 percent this is when
I had the same thing with

the conversation with Kevin.

You have to be able to meet in the middle.

And be like, okay, I'll spend time on
your side, and you spend time on my side.

Because the same thing's happening, on the
automatic side, and the contributor side.

They're not, they're saying, I'm
not gonna watch, there's so many

videos, how am I gonna watch an
hour long video of these people?

Like, they're just gonna
say the same thing.

sorry, I left that comment on.

so there needs to be some participation
and you and I, are seeing that and

other folks who are on this, on the
live stream right now are seeing

this from Automattic with like Anne
McCarthy trying to reach out to, to

YouTube creators and sort of extending
that olive branch from Automattic.

I'm seeing it too from like the
media core side, trying to get

more sort of, organized content.

Content and information
out to content creators.

So it's slowly happening I think people
are just really upset about the velocity

and just simply can't understand why
it takes so long Because of the because

of the size of this apparatus that we
have in front of us It just it's just

going to take time and and I don't know
any other way the other way around it.

How do these things get decided on?

Hey, even I'm not 100 percent sure,
and I love anybody in the audience,

like Courtney, I saw you, jump in.

I don't even know how all the decisions
are made, and I think that that's

largely what everyone has, an issue with.

But you have the core vision of the
phases that Mullenweg, spelled out.

Many years ago, we're on
the third phase, right?

I think fourth phase, third phase,
of the, of the Gutenberg project.

And, He sets the general
tone and direction.

It's him, right?

That's why he is still a lead contributor
here in WordPress, even though I

don't even know if he's writing lines
of code being contributed to it.

He's just, the guy who's, who's,
who's leading that direction.

And again, I don't have any
problem with it as long as

somebody's leading it, right?

Somebody needs to lead
it and have a vision.

then there are, oh, I
forgot, my screen's not up.

One second.

And then there are, Things
like this that happen.

I don't know 100 percent how people, I
just randomly search on make WordPress

for the word proposal because these
are, these are how things can happen.

starting at the, say, wordpress.

org and make level.

People will do proposals to have
things happen on either the wordpress.

org site and for, you
know, the team around it.

So that's just, One other column
of all the, how this happens.

people write out a proposal,
they put the idea out and people.

Talk about it, and then
eventually something happens.

And whether that whole conversation
happens here in these comments, in this

little comment section, and eventually
it leads into something changing, or

there's a Slack group that's happening,
and people are chatting there, and

then it makes its way into the project.

Yes, this is where, like, that
disjointedness happens, where there's so

many different pockets of communication.

But at least there's pockets
of communication happening, and

it's all out mostly in the open.

So there's just many areas that impact
WordPress and these conversations

are happening all over the place.

Do you wanna put that link in the chat?

Cause like, Like, this is an example.

This is just an example.

I just searched for the word proposal.

I got

Mark: you.

But apparently, I've seen that before.

Proposals with other
things and stuff like that.

Can we use this as a quick example though?

I don't want to put Javier on blast here.

Because I'm sure he's
a fantastic individual.

Let

Matt: me read Courtney's comment.

In the other open source project
proposals have a formal process

with that community's designated
people like core committers.

have a period of RFCs, requests for
comments, WordPress doesn't have this.

Mark: Mm.

There you go.

Okay.

That kind of answers my question.

So like this, like a proposal like this
for whatever from anybody happens and

then it's like I, a random person would
jump in here and read it and I would

say, okay, I kind of agree with it.

Kind of don't agree with it.

This is a great idea.

This is a stupid idea.

Whatever it is.

Maybe voice my opinion there.

But then what happens next?

Because it's not like.

This isn't supposed to
be democratic, right?

Like, let me, let me pose some, some
scenarios here, because this is how I,

this is how I learn to understand things.

So, we have whoever puts a proposal
in here, and then underneath this, we

could have 55 people that say, this
is the worst idea I've ever heard.

And then, then though, because this
isn't like, democratic driven by the

people, could we have whoever the,
whoever the, Like what happens next?

Like, what if the, is there
somebody that like kind of monitors

these and says, nope, actually,
I disagree with you 55 people.

This is a fantastic idea.

We're doing it.

Is, can it work like that?

Or am I, I'm just guessing, I don't know.

Because I'm really confused
on how this part works.

Do we, we don't have a process for that?

Matt: for this particular, you know,
I, I would imagine for this particular

thing, I guess it also depends on is it
something that's impacting, WordPress.

org, like the site, which is this
particular post WordPress hosting

directory, but the software is,
is Can and could happen without,

you know, this official, proposal.

Yeah.

Daniel says, this is the same discussion
we keep having going all the way

back to WordPress and the foundation,
how decisions are being made.

A hundred percent.

Courtney said, I'm correct.

I trust Courtney.

Mark says, yeah, Mark, you're correct.

tonic loads of, loads of discussion.

zero real leadership.

You know, the only thing I have an
issue is when you say like, are, Are

the, the leadership, is it, is it about
you don't like the leadership or is it

things aren't happening fast enough?

Because once again, I just, I've been
in the software world for a long time

and either, you know, I work at Gravity
Forms, that's my, that's my day job.

There are things that just have
to get done, and then there

are nice to have features.

And then when the things that have to
get done are either complex, or we're

trying to support WordPress, or, certain
WordPress features, and it has to be,

backwards compatibility, and you're
wrestling with that, like, man, sometimes

the software thing takes a while.

And I said this in your
livestream last week.

Week mark like imagine when we're talking
about version control like imagine

trying to Do WordPress with 2, 000
ish people and then imagine trying to

develop a website with six people And
just like how drastic of a difference

it is with 2, 000 But also like how
it can be the same kind of technical

challenge with just six people looks
like we lost Mark's video mark is back

Mark: Yeah, just fixing it.

Sorry about that.

But yeah, that's Yeah, I don't know.

It's a very interesting thing, but this
is this is the type of stuff here where

like The way the way I work and I think
about these types of issues is like I'm,

not even at the point where I can like
Render a full opinion on if this is right

if this is wrong because what we just
discovered there as an example It's I

guarantee you most people don't even know
that Okay I guarantee you most people

don't even know that that's how it works
where like you could put up a proposal for

an instance and then we're still not even
sure if You Like how that gets vetted if

there is a process sounds like there kind
of isn't one you can render your you can

render your Opinion on it, but then it it
we don't know how that ends up circling

through compare and contrast that with
maybe something like at another Type of

company another corporation where like
you could just put in feature requests

and maybe it gets cared about maybe it
doesn't but ultimately though the thing

there is like If I went to Apple, and
somehow Apple is a bad example, but if

I went to a company like that, put in
a feature request, and 10, 000 people

upvoted it, I think they're going to
be like, well, a reasonable percentage

of our user base thinks this is a good
idea, let's look at it a little bit,

and then they might implement it just
because most of the user base agrees,

and they want to make more money, they
want to make their clients more happy.

So, that's the way that I
would kind of think about it.

But again, here's my thing.

I'm not even rendering an opinion on
whether I think this is right or wrong.

I, we just need to understand, hopefully
the majority of people need to understand

how it's working before we even say
if it's, okay, this is good, bad,

or like, is there, is there a way to
make things, kind of more efficient?

Like, do we have a way to optimize things
or opinions on how to optimize things?

Can't even really do that.

Cause it seems like there's a lot
of minutiae here that needs to be,

still understood by the masses.

Matt: One of the.

Comments.

I saw from tonic and, and,
and we've all, we all say it.

I think there's different levels of,
just trying to pull up something else.

Mark: Yeah, guys, Apple was a bad example.

Let's pick somebody else.

Sorry.

And

Matt: one second, let
me just pull this up.

So

like it's been so long.

I really have an issue with how
long, like, being super critical

on how long it, it takes.

because we all know, like, for instance,
in that live stream today, somebody

mentioned like, Oh, as soon as I have
an idea for Crocco blocks, I send

them a message and they build it.

Well, okay, great.

But that's like Crocco blocks building
it for their, however many customers

they have 10, 000, a hundred thousand.

I don't know what the number is,
but it's certainly not millions.

And it's certainly not a
complex product as, or a piece

of software as WordPress is.

So it's, it's one thing to be like, Oh
yeah, I need that thing, throw it in.

Just like with the expand three
dots on the entire admin panel,

how would you get that done?

How would you do that?

And let's say you can
propose it to Gutenberg.

All right.

What, what is enough?

So if we use your example before
Mark about like, Oh, we tell

people to go and create an issue.

And then if it doesn't get done for
five years, like there was an issue

recently, somebody brought up again
has been in there for like 13 years.

Right.

but if somebody puts an issue in
and it doesn't get touched, like,

well, how much effort did you
put in to creating that issue?

Right.

Did you clearly articulate it?

Is it a big enough issue for
somebody to pick up on it?

is it.

easily solvable, right?

So when I put my issue in for putting
in a command into the command palette,

I was lucky enough to have Brian Cordes
be like, I think I can do that and write

that code, and I will go and do it.

So immediately, it was like a one
two combo of like, here's my idea,

here's why I think I need it.

So I articulated it halfway decent.

It's a very simple thing,
so it's not that hard.

And then Brian wrote it.

And then got feedback from other
developers who, who contribute

to, to Gutenberg and moved it
up the, moved it up the chain.

So it's one thing to be like,
go and create an issue and just

be like, this thing needs help.

And then you just leave.

But it's another thing to come in and say,
okay, we need those three dots expanded.

I think the best place for that
is in the site editor preferences.

Because this is what I was thinking
when I was listening to it.

And it would be a toggle
inside the site preferences.

preferences window, and I would
even make a little screenshot

of like, here's where it can go.

Here's a little toggle UI, and
you could turn this on and off.

But, but that just starts
the discussion, right?

For a thing like that, because
it's one thing to just say it.

It's another thing to implement it.

And that's the difference between
like, I don't know, a user base

of Crocoblox versus WordPress.

Crocoblox may like, yeah, throw it in.

Easy, right?

We're only supporting 10, 000, you know,
I don't mean this in a bad way, but

we're only supporting 10, 000 paying
customers or whatever the number is.

Versus millions of people have to use
this and then it has to be supported.

Right?

So there's a big difference.

I, I, I, I, I hope people realize
like, you can show up and create

that issue, but then what's a
good issue versus a bad issue.

Does that make sense?

Mark: I think it does.

How do you feel about, how do you feel
about filming a video on the three

dots, posting that on YouTube, then
posting that video on GitHub as well?

Sure.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

And then, and then seeing how that
goes, and then posting a follow up

video on what the, what the outcome was.

Matt: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, the
more, the more you can give to a, a,

a developer or a product person to
see that, I mean, the better, right?

I, I think when you look at it from,
Political's not the right word, but

when you look at, like, trying to
convince somebody, it's certainly not

gonna help if you just yell at them and
say, this feature is terrible, we need,

we need it to be something different.

Please explain, elaborate, and if
you can, demonstrate it with a, with

a video and a, and an illustration.

where was I going?

I was going with, do do do do,
we're looking at Gutenberg, oh,

WordPress core contributors, right?

So there's core contributors
to WordPress, right?

So this is

across the, the, the
lifespan of WordPress.

And these are folks who actually
had core contributor access to

WordPress, like those that can actually
push the code to WordPress core.

And you can come in and you
can see all of them, throughout

the, history of WordPress.

let me go back so I can see that number.

The number is 72 total contributors.

Core contributors, right?

Folks who can actually push
code to WordPress Core, which

impacts the entire world.

That's why that number isn't as
big as something like, Gutenberg,

which has, 1, 300 ish people over
time, 1, 100 contributors over time,

because, This is a project on Git, on
Gutenberg, on GitHub that anybody can

come and, and contribute to, right?

So Is that, wait, so there's
72 active core contributors?

No, you'd have to go,
no, that's overall time.

Mark: Really?

Yeah.

People who are Can you leave?

What do you mean?

Like, can you leave?

Has there always been 72 total, like No,

Matt: no, no, these are, so it's, it's
people that can actually deploy the code.

Right?

These are core contributors that
can actually deploy the code.

And yes, Daniel, isn't that also only
contributors with GitHub accounts?

Correct.

Yeah.

But core contributors, core contributors,
people contribute code to WordPress.

That doesn't necessarily make
them a core contributor, which can

actually affect WordPress core.

Mark: Is there like, this
is a stupid question.

Is there like one person or a, like
the small team, the leadership,

like that vets this code?

Like, I mean, you can't
just, like, push it, right?

I mean, obviously, you can't just, like,
How do we trust those people enough?

Matt: At the end of the day, the buck
stops at the, as far as I understand it,

the buck stops at the core contributors.

Right?

So, testing, all that stuff happens.

That's why I always say, one of the
best things to do is to see, You know,

when they're, when they're releasing
a, a new version of, of WordPress, to

actually watch that happen in Slack,
because you get to see sort of like, I,

I, I sort of, I sort of attribute it to
like watching a spaceship launch, right?

All the, the checks and, you know,
we're checking this and we're

doing that and, okay, we're gonna,
everybody, everybody's checking and

everybody's making sure there's no
last, errors when they're committing

the, the code, you know, to WordPress.

they get to see all that stuff, right?

Or you get to see all that stuff as
like a, as like a, you know, somebody

in the audience seeing this thing
launch and everybody's checking in and

you really get to see, wow, there's
a, there's a lot of people that,

that, that, that partake in this.

but you know, you can even see it
like, again, back to the value of, of,

of open source and version control.

I know I'm bouncing around here a lot.

but when you go and
look at something like,

this is, this is where, like, I'm not a
developer, so this is why it's probably

painful for developers in the audience,
but if you look at something like,

add padding around selected values,
author filter, you know, you can come

and see from a developer standpoint,
performance tests, you can, you can

see how all of this stuff affects the
code, you know, for lack of a better

word, like, was there an issue when
the code was, merged into a particular,

you know, version of WordPress.

So like all of that stuff is
being tracked in, in GitHub.

So you can kind of see where
things are failing and.

And what, where the code is
going, if that makes sense.

And again, I'm not a, I'm not a developer.

I just, I just trust the process here.

And I trust something like, like
GitHub and version control, because

you, that is all documented.

So you can kind of see if there, if there
is a problem, you can go back and go, Oh

God, this is where this code got merged.

We need to, we need to roll that back.

or we need to pull that out kind of thing.

Yeah.

Okay.

Mark: Makes sense.

Yeah.

So what is track?

It's track something different.

we don't have to, we
don't have to get into it.

I was just, it's high level, high level.

Just something else.

Matt: Yeah.

Track is just legacy.

It's like legacy version control.

before like GitHub existed.

No, we use it.

We still use it, in, in WordPress.

So track is, where like all these
issues happen in, in, in GitHub.

and then there's like SVN, wordpress,
let me show, let me pull it up.

Mark: Daniel has some, strong
opinions on SVN, apparently.

Matt: Let me tell you about SVN.

Yeah, I mean, SVN, Mark, you're probably
too young for this, but do you remember

ever hearing about, like, MS DOS?

Like, it's Yes.

It's, it's, it's like that.

Oh, wow.

You know.

Interesting.

so,

So if we pull up this,

Mark: But it was the same
concept then, But not, Yeah,

it's just, it's been there since,

Matt: yeah, since WordPress,
WordPress started, right?

So, I don't know, if we go into, You know,
something like this, it's just a very

old, You can, you can tell, it's just a
very old school, setup, it just runs on.

on wordpress.

org.

So this particular one is, a track
ticket, which is classified as a

bug, says filters on pattern archives
page not working, opened 13 hours

ago, last modified 7 hours ago.

somebody says, here's the description,
when you're on the patterns archive

page and you want your filters
sync or not sync pattern, the back

office crashed with this JS error.

So this is obviously the
code stuff happening.

And then this person.

I'm not even going to pretend to
dissect this code, but this person

replied with, with the issue.

So

Mark: it's legacy and it's being
used by people that don't use Git?

Matt: Yeah, but this is where all
the core WordPress stuff happens.

And WordPress themes.

Mark: And plugins.

Because it's, because it's not on Git?

Or just because it's legacy and it
hasn't moved or mined or anything like

Matt: that.

It hasn't moved, and I believe it hasn't
moved because, what Courtney said, I

think she said, security by obscurity
because if there is some kind of huge

security issue with WordPress, seemingly
they don't want that to be, you know,

On GitHub or accessible for anyone to
either contribute or get access to it.

so it stays with just the core
contributors and they mirror it.

As Courtney also mentioned, it's,
it's, it says it right here to

link a pull request to the ticket.

So all that code is getting mirrored
to GitHub so you can see it.

But all the other discussions
and access to contribute,

that code happens in in track.

Mark: Hmm.

You, you have to be logged
in to see that, I guess.

Matt: No, this stuff is, no,
this is, I'm not logged in.

This is all, you can go to core.

track.

wordpress to see it.

Mullenweg: Okay.

Matt: And you get an RSS feed
for it too, and you can see

absolutely everything happening.

So this covers everything under wordpress.

org, which is a whole other
discussion, which is wordpress.

org itself, wordpress core, wordpress
themes, like all the themes that

are, are hosted at wordpress.

org, all the plugins that
are hosted at wordpress.

org, like this is where.

Theme developers are, are still putting
their, their themes and having the

discussions of approval and what has to
be changed, what needs to be updated.

Like this is, that whole
community is in here.

but it all, all the WordPress core
stuff also gets mirrored to, to GitHub.

So you can see the code, you're
just not gonna, you're just not

gonna see all those discussions.

Mark: Hmm.

Okay.

Do you think it's, like, important?

Do you think it would be, like,
beneficial to try to I mean, I

I I'm I'm a little I'm a little

I don't know if I'm just too
young, you know, not not not jaded

by life just yet or something.

But, like, the the sentiment that,
like, this is just keep this just keeps

happening, like, you know, like you
like, it's just the way that it is.

It's always it's it's
always been like this.

It's always going to be like this.

That type of thing.

It doesn't ever really resonate with me.

I find it to be like, quite, like maybe
it will end up being true, but I find it

to be like, quite like, I don't know, just
maybe a sad way to think about things.

Like, do we think like,
things could improve?

Like, it almost seems like
it's a sentiment that like,

you can't improve anything.

Like, it's just, ah,
this is just how it is.

Matt: I, again, like, I, I, I don't, It
depends on what you mean by improving,

like what that and how much are, are
you looking to improve all at once?

I mean, obviously I'm not the one,
you know, with the, with the answers

or the, on the leadership side,
but it's just like, what does it,

what does improvement look like?

Does it look like we're getting
more features, you know, not to,

like Bricks versus WordPress Core.

Like, are, like, do we feel
like that's an improvement?

Like, oh, we're starting to satisfy those
requirements that we get in Bricks, and

now we have that stuff in, in WordPress.

Is that in, is that improvement?

Is it improvement in the
publishing side of it?

you know, somebody on that call today
brought up, like, oh, the first thing I

do is I disable all the screen options.

Like, all the stuff that shows
up on, I'm assuming he's talking

about, like, WordPress dashboard and
all the other stuff that pops up.

Like, okay, is that, is
that How bad is that?

Is like, is that all
you want to get better?

Is like that improve, like
that onboarding experience?

Like, is it the onboarding experience?

Is it more themes?

Like, what is it that people want?

And I don't think that anyone
can clearly answer that.

because there's just a, such a
vast amount of, of stuff that

people want from WordPress.

You know, I don't know what
improvement looks like.

Is it, is it clear,
clear, clearer objectives?

Is it more transparency with leadership?

Is it those features we talked about?

Like, what is it?

Like, what is it gonna make it better?

Because I think, my answer
is, I'm not unhappy.

Right?

Like, I know I'm gonna come off
as, as an automatic apologist.

But I also say, like, Step up
other companies who are also making

millions, if not billions of dollars
off of, off of this industry.

And, and contribute.

I'm not worried about, I, I, I'm, you
know, I'm of the, of the mindset of like,

I don't feel like it's that bad because,
because we still have the products

to be able to, to do things better.

If you don't like Gutenberg,
you know, that's fine, but you

can, you have other options.

Elementor, Bricks, go
ahead, pick something else.

Mark: I mean, I think, the
transparency aspect of it, which I'm

not even blaming, I wouldn't even
pass blame for the transparency.

It's very hard to be transparent
about so many different,

like, the whole process of it.

But, my question would be,
like, is that a core tenant of

the whole project as a whole?

And obviously, like, Matt
Mullenweg's kind of the epicenter

of progress, like Daniel said.

Question, because I'm new.

Because I'm new here.

I don't know how long I can say that
for, but question because I'm new here.

Matt: Yeah, you're gonna
run out of that pretty

Mark: soon.

Did he, did he ever describe
himself as a benevolent dictator,

or was that something that was just
Because I hear that all the time.

Like, did he say it was like
that, or did somebody just like

say that that was how it was?

Matt: I, I think that was, and
if anybody's in the audience that

remembers this, I think that was
tongue in cheek from, because he's

really good friends with, Tim Ferriss.

And I, I want to say it was on
Tim Ferriss podcast where he, Tim,

labeled him the benevolent dictator.

It might've been passed around before,
or maybe he said it, but the first

time I had heard it really was on,
was, on the Tim Ferriss podcast.

Yeah.

Courtney says it's used beyond WordPress.

My mouse keeps dying for some reason.

Interesting.

Okay.

Mark: All right.

So it's not like a foreign
concept or whatever.

And like, he would probably, if you asked
him, like, are you a benevolent dictator?

He would say yes.

Matt: I would assume he would say yes.

He'd probably like look
at you sideways, but

Mark: Well, I'm just saying, I'm just
saying because I feel like it, it, I'm

not, again, I'm not the point where
I'm like casting judgment or opinion

necessarily, but I just feel like
that, even something as silly as that,

it's like everybody understanding that
it's not a democracy and rather it's,

it's rather him, moving it forward.

If that is the case and everybody knew
that, then at that point you could say,

okay, well I do or don't agree with that.

But until we understand that that is
how it is, because still I think people

are confused apparently that it's not a
democracy and it's not like, oh, I want

something, I can just say it and it just
happens, which is important to know.

Like, we have to understand that.

The parameters of what we're dealing
with and like what the situation is

before we can actually have an honest
conversation Or and make any progress

whatsoever regardless of what your
definition of progress is so, Yeah, and

I would say the only thing I would say
though is like if that's the case you

line those down those up it's like I
mean I I as an aside Maybe off topic.

I find it like crazy that like 43
percent of the internet seems to

be Completely completely like at
the, the mercy of one individual.

Like that's kind of like that, that
seems a little concerning to me.

Not, not like again,
nothing against Matt Mullen.

We never spoke to the guy seen his
interview seems great, but I'm just saying

like all of that one person epicenter of
that, like, and we've talked about this

before, hopefully there's like kind of
more of like, we're understanding now

that like time is a reality and like we
have built, we're building kind of like,

you know, some, you know, contingency
to that, like with, you know, troops

and different things like that, and like
kind of the, you know, the seconds in

command and stuff like that, which I
don't know how much or how little that

has happened in the past and everything.

Cause obviously when you're trying to run
something big, you can't just do it alone.

So I dunno, that's just, we
don't have any answers there.

I don't feel like from what I've heard,
it's just, we'll see what happens, but

that's still something that's kind of like
Just, I would just be curious about, like,

how, how do we, how do we go about that?

You know, not the next
generation of users, the next

generation of operators, or,

Matt: you

Mark: know, leadership, even.

Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, I mean, I think that
there's, It's something that people

bring up a lot, and, and, You know, I,
I, I think it almost sounds worse, too.

It sounds a lot more urgent
when you frame it that way.

Like, oh, it's a whole, you know, 43%,
this big number is reliant on him.

It is, and it isn't because it's
like ideas, like he does set the

motion forward and he, and he does
allow for all of these automaticians

to contribute to, to WordPress.

But I think just like if you're a, I don't
know, if you have an idea for a movie,

and a movie starts getting made, like as
a writer, or as like the creator, like,

okay, it's one thing to be like, here's
the thing I want done, but then it's,

again, it's this massive apparatus, and
it changes and evolves over time, and

it's out of your control, unless you're
just an absolute, like, maniac narcissist

and you're just like in everybody's face,
which, you know, Hey, it kind of sounds

like he's in, he's still talking to all
these people about all these products.

Like he does need to maybe take
a step back and hyper focus

on, on the core of WordPress.

but I think like his direction,
there's one thing that like he sets

the tone and the direction, but how
it evolves, he's not like it's him

writing the lines of code and the
features are being built or whatever.

Maybe like, even like Steve
jobs to a degree, I guess.

you know, he has the ideas.

This is the vision, but eventually,
like, reality sets in and it has to

be built a certain way and it, and it,
and it evolves just because there's so

many people, you know, contributing to
this thing that maybe his idea doesn't

take shape exactly like he's wanted.

and he's, you know, he's talked about it.

Look at the, Data Liberation Initiative.

That's just his idea.

And until maybe he makes, automaticians
actually, you know, write these export

import migration tools, he's just like,
here's this idea for data liberation.

Here's what we should do.

And he just throws it out there.

And now it's up to the community and
anyone else who wants to contribute

to that, to actually make it reality.

So what did he do?

He sort of like, put the carrot on the
end of the stick a little bit closer.

And he was just like, Oh, if
you want to make this plugin.

I'll make sure, make a plugin
to do something like this.

I'll make sure it gets approved in
24 to 48 hours or whatever, which

is, you know, contrary to like,
if you just have a plugin that you

want to contribute to wordpress.

org, it might take a month,
two months, three months.

I don't even know what the wait
time is anymore for plugins.

So his thing was like, I can
help you get this done faster if

you're contributing to this data
liberation project as an example.

Mark: Yeah, I, I, I feel like, I
mean, that totally makes sense, the

ex, example with, Data Liberation.

I would just be kind of literally
interested, maybe just like, literally

ask him the question of like, how do
you, to me, it's a little concerning,

not concerning, but it's like, it's
interesting that he, as that, with that

example, came up with Data Liberation.

Seems like a great idea.

Then nobody did anything with it,
and then he had to dangle the carrot,

and it's like, Does he, as, using
that one as the, the one in question.

Does, is he gonna have like a, a
direction for that, that people

are gonna have to follow as well?

and he's just getting it started
and then he's gonna be like, okay,

actually this is kind of where I want
you to go, something like that, or

is he much more hands off than that?

Because I've literally heard like,
again, without actually talking

to him and hearing that specific
stuff, I've heard kind of both ways.

I've heard he's very on, you know, like
you said, on all the different companies,

kind of like in there, like CEOs of
different companies and stuff like that.

Very like hands on with
a lot of that stuff.

And, but also at the same time,
like, how could you possibly be

hands on with all this stuff?

I mean, it's just too vast.

So I don't know.

I would love, I would, I'm just curious
genuinely about that as an example, but

Matt: I'm trying to just
find something really quick.

What else?

You see any, any chats coming
in while I look for this,

anything that anyone's saying?

Mark: Yeah, I got one
from Elliot Richmond.

The plan is there is no plan.

That's a fun one.

Matt: Damn it.

Mark: That's a fun one.

and then Peter says, there's always
forking classic press exists.

I'm not personally, interested in
it, but, but there is that, I mean,

again, that's the beautiful part.

I mean, again, I don't know.

I, maybe I'm just like kind of too
meta for a lot of these conversations.

I just literally think like what
happens if Matt Mullenweg literally just

decided tomorrow that he wasn't going
to do, wasn't going to do anything.

I'm getting an echo right

Matt: now.

Yeah, I was hearing myself.

All right.

Tell me if you hear this, tell
me if you hear this without you.

Mullenweg: I have a little bit
of a, sad trombone one though.

Matt: Do you hear that?

All right.

Yeah.

So I just need to turn
that on for a second.

Do you hear me?

Do you hear me twice?

Hmm.

Okay.

So you just be quiet for a second.

And I'm going to play this, I'm going to
play this clip, from the Data Liberation.

This is from, Matt Mullenweg's
summer update at WordCamp Europe

talking specifically about,
the Data Liberation Project.

Mullenweg: Which is the
Data Liberation Project.

So, as I spoke about at State of the
Word, I'll reintroduce data liberation.

This is the idea that one of the
best things we could do as an open

source community is unlock all
the proprietary platforms, all the

places where people have their data
locked in to systems which might not

allow export or easy composability
or transferability of their data.

so we, we term this data liberation.

And, if you scan that QR
code or go to wordpress.

org slash data dash liberation, you
will see we have the start of what,

hopefully will be something that creates
a ton more freedom on the web and a

ton more portability between platforms,
including in and out of WordPress.

WordPress could be a, maybe a middle
ground between something else.

however, this has had
very, very little progress.

So if you go to that page, click on some
of the links, you'll see mostly empty

GitHub So I just wanted to point this out,
as an amazing place if you're interested

in contributing to WordPress, to adopt
something and have total ownership of it.

So if you wanted to, sort of, each of
these projects is fairly self contained.

So if, you wanted a chance to
actually lead something within the

WordPress project, you could be in
charge of the, say, Wix to WordPress

converter or something like that.

this, I think, is also going to be
really important for us as, The more

and more marketing dollars, hundreds
of millions of dollars are spent in

marketing for proprietary platforms.

Proprietary platforms have gotten tons
of investment in the past few years.

Things like Shopify, Squarespace, etc.

And they are coming as sort of the
macroeconomic conditions have changed.

They've started to really target
WordPress agencies, WordPress

users, WordPress sites quite a bit.

And so they're coming and trying
to snipe away our community.

so.

So, we have to keep an eye out for that.

And the problem as well is when
people go that way, it's almost

impossible to go back the other way.

It's like, I don't know if you
had this advertisement here,

but the Roach Motel, the Roaches
check in, they don't check out.

That's a lot of these proprietary CMSs.

They'll let you check in your data,
but you can never check it out.

So as part of our mission to democratize
the web and increase freedom, I think it's

really, really important that we create
portability, even when the platforms

themselves don't support The other big
part of this that I think is also super

relevant for this audience is we need
to make wordpress to wordpress easier.

Who's ever tried to transfer a
wordpress site to something else?

Matt: Alright, so I'm just
going to stop it there.

You should be good.

I shut off loopback.

you know, where this project,
he came up with this idea.

Data liberation.

And maybe other people talked about it.

I mean, we've all always talked
about making it easier to move from

WordPress to WordPress for sure.

from one web host to another web
host, you know, moving your media

from I just want my media to go to
this WordPress website or whatever.

So, okay, so whether or not this is
just a pet project, like understanding

that Matt comes up with maybe a lot of
pet projects as, you know, somebody in

a more innovative leadership position
should be doing, like taking bets and

making these different things happen.

That is how it started, at least the way
that I understand it with data liberation.

Here's an idea, here's why we need it
to get done, and let's go build it.

And by let's go build it, it's just
here it is, you know, WordPress

community, go and build this.

Now, I think what's important to
understand is that if you're a developer,

like you have to get your, your, this
is, this is the, this is the challenge

that a lot of us have with the community
is we, we only see ourselves like

website builders mostly, like we're
the most vocal, we're doing content

marketing, we're on Twitter, LinkedIn,
Livestreams, doing all this stuff.

Right.

But there are, there's a whole group of
people, much greater than the business

side of WordPress, who are, who are
developers, and somebody who wants to

make a name for themselves, rightfully so.

And you, and you love the idea of open
source, and you're a fantastic developer,

and how do you, how do you, Shoulder
your way up in, in a community, where

you want to give back to WordPress, but
maybe you just don't have the podium or

the stage that's, that is there for you.

What he said is, hey, you could be the
person who makes the Wix to WordPress

converter or whatever, like you
could be the person that leads that.

And there's a certain allure there
for somebody who wants to build that.

Right?

Just like if, if WordPress was
like, Hey, we're doing an open

call for podcasters for wordpress.

org, I'd be like, yeah, I'll probably
try to throw my hat into that ring.

Like I, I'll try to create a story
or an audio series about WordPress

that I'll, that I'll contribute to.

And I would feel super
passionate about that.

There is, there are people out
there much again, much greater and

much more mass than us who would
be like, yes, I want to write code.

In open source and give it give back
to wordpress and be that person who

made that wix to wordpress converter
because one you either just love it You

love the idea of solving this issue,
which I think a lot of developers are

attracted to development in general.

or you're trying to make it,
you're trying to build up your

resume and you want to get noticed.

You want to get a job.

You want to, you want to
be hired by Automatic.

You want to be hired by some, you know,
web agency or some software company.

And if you're the person who made that
decision, you know, made their mark on

the data liberation project and you are
making Wix to WordPress so much better.

yeah, you've just increased your chances
to be maybe hired by automatic or Wix

because Wix does have an open source
division, air quotes, where they give back

to their own open source projects as well.

So it's also a calling card to the
developers who are out there who

want to contribute to this stuff.

And I think we only see it from one lens.

We're like, Oh, that'll never happen.

Who's going to do that?

Well, somebody will eventually
maybe step up, or if not, it

doesn't, and it just dies out.

and it really depends on, on Mullenweg on
whether or not he says, okay, no one wants

to, to jump into this open source thing.

I'll take 12 people from automatic and
make sure that they're contributing

their time to data liberation.

Mark: Yeah.

I mean, uh, again, as far as
the data liberation example

goes, yeah, I don't know.

I, it.

What you laid out there makes sense.

If you're, if you're a developer trying
to make a name for themselves or whatever,

then like those are the types of project.

And Matt Mullenweg seems to be
absolutely like a visionary and

innovative guy as far as those things go.

again, I'd be interested to see like how
much of his, he is super hands on with

versus just having the ideas and letting
them kind of like naturally kind of flow.

I'm sure there's examples of that in
the past and I'll be interested to see

how it moves into the, into the future.

Just because I feel like
everything's getting pretty big.

There's a lot going on.

So obviously just can't be
reasonable amount of delegation.

I feel like has to be, has
to be continually made.

And I'm sure he's doing
a good bit of that.

So,

Matt: so I'll just, I'll, I'll sort
of wrap up my side of it from call to

action, you know, check out, the, the,
the live stream that, Paul was supposed

to host on his, on his, on his channel
today, I'll paste that, in the chat.

If anybody else has any other questions,
go ahead and drop them in now.

you know, obviously a long conversation.

The, the only thing, you know, that
I really, you know, have a critical

take on is if you're a content
creator, And you're somebody with an

audience that you, you should want
to be meeting in the middle, right?

Like, it's not just good enough
to, it's still impactful.

I just think from my own point
of view, like you have to try to

meet in the middle and understand.

Get the other person to cross aisle.

And this goes on both sides, right?

Like if you're an automatician, and again,
we're seeing those efforts, with Nick

Diego and McCarthy, you know, rich Tabor's
going on shows and stuff like that.

So there is a little bit of
listening coming from that side.

but from the content creator side, I
feel like it's, It's, it's detrimental

that you, that you understand, this
apparatus and that you also, are,

you know, meeting in the middle and
contributing more than just the content.

I think if you're, a thought leader,
an influencer, a YouTuber, and you

have the audience, that you have to
do, you have to go a step further,

right, as, as a leader, in my opinion.

Just in my opinion.

check out the live stream today.

It is still a good discussion.

It's making more people talk.

So, yes, there's a compound effect.

There's a domino effect here.

check out, the, the live stream
discussion that I linked up.

Again, it went on, the
Web Squadron channel.

It was supposed to be Paul's channel.

yeah, check it out.

It's a good, good conversation.

And folks like Mark, who's
on the stream today, does a

series called, Bridge Builders.

Bridging the Gap.

I'm not going to fill in the,
what's the, what's the sub headline?

Mark: I don't want to, we do, we do.

We can.

Yeah.

It's Matt Eastwood's over
on Matt Eastwood's channel.

Me and, Brendan O'Connell, co hosted
with him and yeah, we just look at

different builders and different
workflows and things like that, because

I do think that that is a tough thing.

None of us have an infinite hours in the
day, so we can't all get like to see the

behind the scenes of how everything works.

And then we just hear it via
rumors from, you know, different

content and things like that.

Oh, this is great.

This is terrible.

It's nice to see it, you know, and,
hope and we try to package it in a

short stream, but it's normally ends up
being like two to three hours, but, You

know, just trying to, just trying to get
people different perspectives on stuff.

I don't know, like I said, I don't have
all the time in the world to look at

all these different things, so it's
cool to see it, from professionals and,

that are using these different workflows
and just give us a little bit of a

peek behind the curtain on the other
things that we're not using every day.

So, yeah.

Matt: Awesome stuff.

everybody else, thanks for
joining the stream today.

thanks for hanging out, asking questions,
throwing in your two cents, the WP minute.

The wpminute.

com.

Hey, you know what's happening tomorrow?

Another live stream, talking about
another widely debated company, Elementor.

we're going to talk about is Elementor
locking you in to, my mouse keeps dying,

is Elementor locking you in to AI?

You can join that conversation
with me, tomorrow.

at 12 p.

m.

Eastern, right here on this channel.

Let me throw up the screen one more time.

youtube.

com at WPMinute, joined by
Ryan Logan, talking about his

recent findings of Elementor.

Can we shut off that pesky AI?

Who's in control?

We'll find out tomorrow, on
the livestream, everybody.

Thanks for watching.

We'll see you in the next one.