The WP Minute+

The following episode is a conversation
with myself and mark is Umansky.

We weren't sure if we were going to
release it, we decided to record,

uh, just, uh, A little one-on-one
brainstorm session that we had

just chatting about WordPress.

We were recording it.

Wasn't sure if we were
going to release it.

I am going to release it.

It's a rather long conversation.

Ideas is a little bit all over the
place, but generally you talking about.

who WordPress's for, how we
approach The marketing, the

messaging around WordPress who?

WordPress reel.

Quote, unquote enemy is in the
space who our competition is,

what could bring WordPress down.

and all of those fun topics.

So sit back, relax, grab your favorite
drink and a kickback to listen to mark.

And I chat about some WordPress stuff.

Mark: Obviously we chat via DM quite
frequently on different things.

Cause you are my.

One of my mentors in this space kind
of like to Run things by you a lot

of times when I see them because I
know you've been in here for a long

time Just try to get your insights
Obviously, I watch a lot of your content.

I think When was the most recent one where
you were talking about like the cycles?

Oh, you're with WP tonic Yeah, and you're
talking about the cycles how you've seen

all these things before so sure being
You Slightly, I like to consider myself

some sort of an inquisitive person.

I like to think of and utilize
the experience of my elders.

Not to say you're old, but
my elders, like yourself.

So, I just like to run things by you.

And I guess some of the most recent
events that we have seen in the WordPress

community were a couple things about,
Like blogging and I would, I always

like to blow it up to bigger concepts.

Obviously we use examples, because
that's what kind of like triggers

the conversation, but just kind
of like ways that plugins, market

their content, different blogging
tactics, things like that.

Just the messaging surrounding all that.

That's really interesting.

And then as a subset, premium versus
free tools, that I feel would be

more directed towards people that
are actually purchasing, right?

The end users or the agencies.

That's another big topic that
has been on my mind recently.

Have some thoughts there.

And then, also just in general, you
know, kind of how we're, I guess how

we're navigating this, I think I had
another, I had another thought was just

like thinking about the end user versus
thinking about like developers in the

community in a sense, because those
are two vastly different audiences.

And I feel like a lot
of times we don't have.

We're thinking like we're doing
something good for one party, but

we're actually the other party and
we don't have the proper perspective.

So I think that's another big
thing that we need to continue

to navigate in this space.

Matt: Let's start with that.

let's start with, you know, so let me,
let me return a question back to you.

Are you saying we're, it's, we're
having that same discussion of, Who is

WordPress for is when you were thinking
about that last question, are you

thinking Oh man, we're still stuck in
the throes of who, what, who is this for?

How do we talk to these end users?

If it's for, you know, if it's for like
the basic blogger or website builder,

are we even using that, that kind of,
you know, copy to reach these people?

Like what, how does that
break down in your head?

Mark: I think that What I see is
that there's a lot of, speculation

and just I feel like you feel
that something is one way.

So then you say it's one way, and
I'm, I'm probably guilty of this.

I'm just trying to observe.

Cause I would like to, I would like
to move forward in the most productive

way possible surrounding this.

I feel like this is a
real fundamental block.

So to kind of answer your question,
I don't necessarily know per se

who WordPress is for, if I was
thinking about how to solve that.

Or, you know, figure that answer out.

It would probably be relatively simple.

I just don't know if we can.

Because I've kind of
posed the question before.

It's if there's 800 million websites,
WordPress installs, then I feel like it

would just be simple to know how many
of those were like, single individuals

building like one, maybe two websites.

Right?

you're building the website to
build the website, versus you're

building the website to make money
and build other people's websites.

It's really as, as simple as that.

broken down as I can say it.

So if we just say pros is anybody that's
building websites for other people and

DIYers are people that are just building
websites basically for themselves.

if we could get any sort of
data on that, then we could

easily know who the majority is.

I feel like the majority might actually be
the DIY crew, but I don't actually know.

and either way is fine.

I don't really care either way.

I just would love to know that and
then from there the question is,

okay, well, if If the platform is for
them, that's totally fine, but we need

to make sure we're talking to them
and getting their opinions, because

they're not going to be building the
platform, but they could be shaping

it if we actually get their insight.

You know what I mean?

It's kind of like, it's for them, don't
you want to know what your audience

needs, wants and everything like that?

I'm not saying we're not doing any of
this, I'm just saying that, that's, that's

kind of the topic I feel like, because
there's a lot of conversations that

seem like we're not doing that in a way.

Matt: Right.

Right.

And you think that.

Based on some of the stuff that
you've seen lately, let's say, you

know, free versus commercial plugins
or some of this content marketing

stuff, you think that has a direct
effect or, or these are just unrelated

topics that you're just curious about?

Mark: I mean, they're all related
in the sense of their WordPress and

you have to navigate these things
if you're in this space because

it is like robust yet complex.

It's there's, it's a lot of benefits,
a lot of, a lot of pros, a lot of cons.

But, the free versus premium thing
is, the way I would relate that is

that if you are a DIYer, you may
want the cheapest solution all the

time, and that may work for you.

But as soon as you start building
websites for other agencies, I

went through it myself, because
we're all DIYers at one point.

As soon as you start building
websites for other people, then

you have to start to consider,
well I am making money from this.

It just becomes more of
a business conversation.

I'm making money from this.

Do I want more headaches?

Do I want more hiccups?

Do I want, do, people don't think about
like the longevity of the product.

It's it's business.

people are not going to continue
to build XYZ form plugin, XYZ page

builder without being compensated.

You know, so those, I feel like
those are kind of like 202 topics

that, but they really start to rear
their head when you start to actually

consider what, what you should be
doing from a, A non DIY perspective.

So again, it's two separate conversations,
but it is, it kind of all blends

together as far as, you know, whether
you should choose free or paid or when

or why, and those types of things.

Matt: Yeah.

I mean, I, you know, I still, for
me, the, the end user is still

largely going to be that DIY person,

Mark: you know, Can you define that?

Can you define that for me though?

what your definition of that is?

Matt: Well, I mean, I would say it is
anyone who Wanted to get a website,

anyone who wanted to get a website
up that just wanted to literally

do it themselves and it could
range from, You know, I don't know.

It could range from you're in business
and you're selling pottery and you're

trying to get something off the ground.

You are just somebody who
likes to put up, photos.

You're a photographer.

you're a blogger.

You're a blogger.

I think the, the, the depth of end
user for WordPress is just so deep.

you know, the difference is, is
many of them are coming through,

well, they all, I mean, 99.

9 percent of them are all coming
through a, web hosting company.

so, you know, those web hosts are largely
the ones responsible for recruiting

and retaining these types of end users.

So, you know, if you're trying to figure
out like, how or what types of customers

these are, because we don't have the data.

you know, it's, it's to look to, in a
way that I would look at it, is look

at the largest web hosts in the world
and, and look at their marketing and how

they try to attract, you know, users.

there are plenty of people who, and then,
then there's massive percentage of people

who just don't even know it's WordPress.

don't care, don't know that
they're even using WordPress.

And that is either because they just
literally aren't paying attention.

Like they're just literally not paying
attention when they're building this

website that they signed up for.

And somebody just threw WordPress
at them, like a web host, you know,

or there's some layer of software
on, you know, on top of this stuff.

And yeah, it is a
massively fragmented space.

And I don't think we'll ever have the
definite answer of like hard percentages,

you know, you can just, try to summarize
how much, how many websites you've

launched, how many websites other
professionals have launched, and try

to get an idea of for the professional
WordPress community, like the ones

who are always talking about it every
day of, of how many websites they're

responsible for, for launching, you know,
and it's, A massive amount to write the

professionals in the WordPress space.

So it's a tough, it's
just a tough one to crack.

And I don't know any other, if anyone has
any other ways of calculating that data

other than looking at the web hosts and
trying to understand, you know, who the

biggest web hosts are hosting WordPress
and seeing how they attract customers

to kind of reverse engineer potentially
that type of customer, That's the best

that I have to, to try to answer that.

Mark: So, then if, if we define that,
if that's our definition of end user,

somebody that is, needs a website for
either business or blog, but they're

not really at the level, or they don't
want to, get somebody to do that, right?

They're not gonna hire somebody,
they're gonna do it themselves.

Which, in 2024, we are, Definitely
lying to ourselves if we don't

think that's like possible or if we
don't think that's like a good idea.

I mean, it's definitely a good idea.

Even though, I want people to, you know,
come to my agency and make me, and have

me build them a website, I do think that,
you know, we don't work with everybody

and there's a certain level there.

And it's, it's just interesting
to see how it's gone.

So I think that, you know, with the
Gutenberg Project as an example, and

I wasn't really, I wasn't really in
this, you know, you know, frame of mind

when, when this all started, right?

And you were, so tell me about
this, what was the initial, was

the initial thought there to be
like, we see where this is going.

We see that it's, it's getting like
easier for the common person to build.

So we're going to try to
move in that direction.

And again, I don't know where Wix all
those were at that point, but it was the

idea to go that route so we could kind of.

Compete, if that's, you know,
if we want to use that term with

those types of things, because
I do think that makes sense.

But was that any of, was that any of the,
would you say, did, did it sound like that

was the reason, or did we just think in
general like that was the way to go, or?

Matt: Well, I mean, you also
have to consider the complexities

of the, of the situation.

Meaning, it's not like we all, it's not
like we all got together and decided,

you know, Gutenberg was the path.

I mean.

I think,

you know, there, this is going
to go counter to a lot of the

stuff I've told you before.

So try to, try to take, try to
take it with a grain of salt.

I think every great
product, let me zoom out.

So I've worked at companies before where
the founders don't care about the product.

They don't care about the product.

They don't use it.

They don't, they're not
passionate about it.

They don't understand it from
a customer's point of view.

What do they

Mark: care about?

Just the money?

Matt: Yeah.

Just like the business side of it.

Like I've got this, I've got this
cog and can I sell it and you know,

profitability and plenty of businesses
run that way and that's totally fine.

Right.

Totally fine.

I mean, it's, it's just,
it's business, right?

And a lot of people who see business
on paper and numbers and that's it.

And that's fine.

That's probably how a majority
of the world operates, you know,

and then you have software.

That, you know, are, it's a
unique animal because software

companies can be one person.

And generally that's one person that is
super passionate about a thing and they

can become multi millionaires and they can
have hundreds of thousands of customers.

They can be one person.

I mean, there's plenty of
case studies around that.

so the software business.

And then you look at the WordPress world.

It's very unique that five, six, seven,
a dozen people can come together and

build something awesome and be super
profitable for it and yada, yada, yada.

so having said all of that, there,
there needs to be in this space, a good

product leader and to make decisions.

Any business needs that for the product.

Somebody needs to say, I love this
thing enough to make a decision.

Because what I was getting at with those
other businesses is no decisions are made.

Eh, you're just coasting along.

We don't even know what
the hell we're building.

We don't know any of this stuff.

And in the WordPress world, the person
who makes that decision, whether you agree

with the decisions or not, are largely
led by Matt Mullenweg's vision, right?

Now, when you date, Way back into the
WordPress world and the reason why I

have always, you know, the reason why
I latched on to WordPress early on was

he had a vision of WordPress becoming
the operating system of the web.

Now, he never really broke that apart and
dissected it, nor was it ever really just

like a, like it was never like a thing
that they flew on a flag and everyone

was like, We're all going to build
like the operating system of the web.

I heard it and I was like, oh.

That's pretty cool.

I kind of like that idea.

Because, back then, page
builders weren't a thing.

It was custom post types, custom fields.

You were building user logins.

That's, I mean, I was
doing that at my agency.

We're building, these little mini apps.

And I was like, oh, yeah, WordPress is
kind of like this, this application layer.

We talked about this before, that
was a debate many years ago, where

people would debate forever, is
WordPress really just an application?

framework.

and that was a massive debate for a while.

so Mullenweg is the one who kind of
rolled out the concept of Gutenberg.

Now people, you can debate whether or
not it was the right decision to make.

You can debate whether or not, there was
massive like accessibility issues with it.

Presumably there might still be
issues with it today, all this stuff.

It was where the web was going.

from an end user's perspective, you
know, but, but in my spine, defining

Mark: that though, the way it was going,
the vision, everything like that, we

literally mean going from like a WYSIWYG
classic type editor style and things like

that, just like being dropped into pages
via themes to a visual building like

that's what we're talking about, right?

Exactly.

I don't think that's a bad thing
I mean, we could have a separate

discussion about that, but
everybody's doing it You know what?

I mean?

Like it does seem like it it is
trending that way It's way easier to

build when you can actually see the
stuff rather than again It's more

encapsulation abstraction away from
the actual, you know coding of it.

But again democratizing publishing
I don't really think too many people

Would take like issue with that
obviously it gets in more nuance as

far as like how it's gone and things
But that's not even what I'm that's

not really even where I'm at right now.

My thought is okay So what
was it five years ago?

Roughish.

Okay.

So five years ago, we make that turn.

I would love to go back in time.

Maybe, you know, like where the other
platforms were at that point, regardless

of if it's a competition or not, in a
sense, I do believe it kind of is because

at the end of the day, if I am a lay
person, this is the whole concept right

here is if I'm a lay person, I don't know
1 percent of the shit you and I know.

You know what I mean?

Like I don't know anything.

And I think we, I don't know if
we actively forget about this.

Or if it's just a passive thing, but
because we're kind of in the space,

we just, and I'm just, I'm talking in
general, I'm not, but you know, you and

I, as an example, like I, cause I do it.

I for, I think we forget about
the, the actual end users and

what they do or don't know.

And if the goal is to get more like
random, you know, pottery people or

blog people onto the WordPress platform,
that is, I feel like there's a,

there's a bit of a, a struggle there.

And I think Gutenberg is
starting to solve that.

Jamie Marsland, those types of videos.

Fantastic.

So I just I but I but I still think that
like the actual product then and this is

another question I don't I don't think
we got an answer to it is Has anybody

gone to a pottery or a blogger person
or something and literally asked them

is this does this make any sense to?

You you would you guys use this thing?

Yeah, like as compared to a Wix or a
Squarespace or whatever That's all that's

all I'm saying on really on that point
because I feel like just from Straight

up like thinking about how to sell this
project to them and get them to try it.

That's kind of the best thing.

And again, again, I shout out
Jamie because he's making fantastic

videos about that specifically.

he's even doing adwordpress.

com now.

So, I think, I definitely think
we're moving in the right direction.

Definitely optimistic.

I'm just trying to kind of recalibrate
my mind on that, on that front too to

see how, how I could be continuing to do
better, think about it differently, and

how we could continue to move forward.

Matt: Yeah, it's also very, again,
it's difficult because of the sheer

size of WordPress and, you know, one
of the benefits still, with open source

and, and with WordPress is, You know,
effectively, if there were, cause

there is, if you look at, there's
a market for restaurants, right?

I mean, when I got into the agency
game, probably just like when you

got into the agency game, maybe
probably the first thought that came

through your head is like, all these
restaurant websites are terrible.

I'm going to go help people
build restaurant websites.

And then you go talk to the restaurant
owners and they look at you and they

say, get the hell out of my kitchen.

I work 70 hours a week.

I don't have time to
do this website thing.

And then you realize.

Why web, why restaurant websites suck.

but there has

Mark: evolved that has evolved as well.

I don't want to go on restaurant tangent,
but like now there's like online ordering

and you obviously can do that through
WordPress, but that's, that was a really,

really good thing that people like
came up with a good idea to make, you

know, platform specifically for that.

Now, every, every restaurant website
looks like kind of one or two different

ways or whatever, but that's a side note.

But that, but that's, That's
one of the examples though.

And if

Matt: you, if you look at like WordPress
to just use a different analogy that

I don't often use in like the word,
the WordPress open source side of

it is, is it's the open highway and
then your different cars can come

on, it's come drive on this highway.

So.

You know, WordPress effectively can build
you a 50, 000 foot view page builder.

I know it's not trying to do that, but
if you zoom out, like if it's, if it

stays out of the way and builds you
the infrastructure, you need to have

a good page building experience or
editing content, editing experience.

Then if the market demands more
pottery type solutions, Then somebody

will come up with Pottery themes,
Pottery plugins, Pottery services.

And that's the, the benefit of, of
this whole like open source thing.

Because if somebody's truly
being underserved here through

WordPress, chances are you can
find somebody to fill that gap.

You see it now, well you see
it now with services agencies.

That's why there's so many services
agencies that invest in WordPress.

But then you see it more thoroughly
with like higher ed solutions.

Pottery Barn Where they have a specific
need for WordPress and there are agencies

out there and software out there that
like bends that Bends to that market

same thing with publishing Magazine
like traditional magazines traditional

news news publishers I went to a
competitor the other day is side thing.

There's a pretty popular magazine in
my area They always do like the top You

Top restaurants top stores for all the
2024 and all the categories and I used

to manage their site I actually built
them all kinds of stuff way back in

the day Then magazine stopped getting
funded or whatever and they they cut

their budgets down tried to bring it
in house There was a problem with their

website the other day and I was like,
Oh, I wonder if they still run WordPress.

So I went slash WP admin, they do.

And somebody rebranded the WP admin
interface and I don't know what the name

of the website was, but it goes to some
other website and, they just talk about

how like they've built a CMS for media
publishers and all this other stuff.

And I'm like, guys, this is,
this is still WordPress here.

so, you know, that's the benefit
with WordPress is it can be, you

know, molded to that experience.

Mark: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's different depending
on what you obviously want.

but I think, I, I still think that,
I mean, I just think that's what,

Matt: let me ask you this.

So why do you think if you get, if
you all of a sudden had a chart of

the breakdown of, of end users, would,
would you do anything different?

Mark: I feel like it would matter what the
results were to a, to a certain degree.

Matt: You think that would
make the software better?

If we could, really
pin down, who that was.

Mark: I think, I think it's, I think
it's an interesting one that, that

needs, that calls for an analogy.

That I'm, that maybe you
and I could come up with.

Because I, I don't, I don't
have one off the top of my head.

But it's the way I see it is,
we have talented developers that

are in this space all the time.

Creating the software for
people that are gonna use it.

But.

But again, literally, do we have
any focus groups of those things?

I mean, how, how do
regular SAS products work?

did they get, did they get feedback
from, from their user base?

Like they're, they're, it's just different
because there's, there's too many

different types of people utilizing it.

Like for instance, my FinTech bank that
I've used since they basically opened,

I was like one of the core people and
I was like giving feedback on what was

going on and UI changes and things.

But I'm the only person that's using it.

I'm like, like I'm the only,
I'm not the only person.

I'm the only avatar that's using it.

Right.

They don't really have too many
other avatars, but in WordPress,

there's a ton of people.

I'm not saying these are
easy questions to answer.

I'm just saying that, you know, I, like
if, if, if we literally just rounded

up a hundred pottery people and we
said to them, Hey, through Gutenberg

in front of them and said, Hey, you
know, I feel like that might be a

good thing to, just to kind of see.

What the vibe is like.

But then, I mean again, I'll
counter my own argument.

Is, does it even matter?

do we just feel like we, we
know what's best for them and

we just put it in front of them?

And then they, they handle, and
they figure it out themselves.

That's, that could be an answer.

I'm just, again, I'm, I'm just wondering.

Matt: Yeah, and that's the, yeah,
that's something I can't answer either,

because of, you know, the various
decisions and the various, concepts

that come into the WordPress space.

you know, the core, the core team and, and
a lot of people who contribute to actual

code to WordPress, you know, some of these
ideas just come out of nowhere, right.

You know, and, and some of these big
concepts just come out of nowhere.

And yeah, obviously the, the.

Biggest fish in the game is, is automatic.

So, you know, you have some smart
people there and, and certainly

can lead you to say like, why
did we come up with this idea?

I would hope that when they're
making those decisions.

So, so this goes back to my, what
I was saying before about you

need to have a product person.

I know not to call, you know, WordPress
a traditional product, but you need

to have a product person who makes
those decisions, makes those bets.

Cause at the end of the day, if you
don't have somebody who's like willing

to risk that or have that vision,
then you get, then you get nothing.

You just get the stag,
stagnant product or company.

So Gutenberg big grand vision.

Matt has even said before in other
podcasts that, or other interviews that

he actually sees open source Gutenberg to
be bigger than WordPress in years to come.

So wrap your head around that, right?

And I kind of agree with him on that.

You know, other CMS platforms
should use Gutenberg.

Ghost should use Gutenberg
because Ghost is a great platform.

But when you start editing, it's
so limited compared to what I

can do with, with Gutenberg when
I'm building pages and templates.

And that's the idea around Gutenberg.

That's also an open source project
that other CMSs or any interface

that has inputs on the web could use,
could fork and use in their project.

So you need somebody to be
able to make those decisions.

So I hope that when, you know,
Matthias and Rich Tabor and, and

McCarthy and all these folks that
come up with a lot of Nick Diego

come up with these big grand visions
of WordPress that they're thinking.

This decision is good for, for everyone.

It's a bit of risk, it's a bit of a
bet, as a good product person should do.

but the idea would be like, hey
man, if this isn't working, you

gotta, you gotta yank it, or we
gotta, you know, shift course.

And a little bit of hint of that
this week, past week when Matt

was like, maybe we should take
a year and reinvest in stuff.

yeah, man, like maybe we
have been iterating too fast.

And, and actually we kind of just saw this
happen because I believe collaboration

was next on the list, but that's getting
paused because there wasn't enough either

interest or maybe they realized like,
oh shit, we have to, we have to pump the

brakes a bit and beef up this other stuff
before we start thinking about Developing

collaboration in, in WordPress and that's
going to get pushed to a later date.

I believe is what the end result was

Mark: Yeah, I don't I mean that would
just be another question that I would

have is it is it that The is it that
the iteration has been too fast or

has it been some other like word?

I mean like Because again, there's
different, there's different opinions

all over the community about this.

some people say it's
not been managed well.

Some people say it's going slow as hell.

Like all that sort of stuff.

I'm not here to say one way
or the other necessarily.

I haven't been around long
enough to really feel it.

But I'm saying like, how, It, it signals
to me like there's, just looking at

it, That, that, If it, if it was too
fast and we need to go back on certain

things, then maybe those weren't,
completely thought out at the time.

And either not completely thought out or
not completely, I don't know the process

for building a SaaS, I'm not gonna lie.

But I'm, but I'm thinking, I don't
see other, again, we, we can't

really compare, I guess, products to
projects, but, I don't really see that

happening in these other platforms.

So I wonder, literally, I know it's
not apples to apples entirely, but

I'm wondering, With a Wix, with
a Squarespace, like how do they

even come up with these ideas?

Do they, do they pull their users at all?

Do they have those types
of focus group type things?

because we have the greatest community
of that in WordPress, but it is

not really the target audience of
traditional WordPress, I suppose.

Like you can just.

Open up Twitter and you will see an
opinion about Gutenberg or WordPress

in general or something like that.

But that person is most likely going to
be somebody that does this professionally.

Yeah.

Rather than, or has some sort of
livelihood connected directly to the

product, on the project, rather than
just like their business uses WordPress.

Yeah.

I just think it's a really,
really Interesting juxtaposition.

Yeah, I mean, I would even,

Matt: I would even argue that if you saw
a negative opinion about WordPress, you

would see more negative opinions about
WordPress from the average user than

you would, positive, you know, reviews.

Because it's still a learning curve
and it's still difficult and, you

know, you need to have some, some
knowledge to, to know how this whole

thing is, is put together, right?

Plugins, themes, what can, you
know, hosting, what happens

when my site goes slow?

Like you need to, you know, that's why
people reach out to a service provider.

And I think that really
it's, it's understanding.

And this is why I think secretly
you start to, not secretly, but

I start, you start to see efforts
with Playground, Playground.

wordpress.

net and the Studio app, Because this
gives somebody the ability to, to use

WordPress and try WordPress for free.

Now this is, remember, this is infant,
we're in infant stage right now.

This, this tiny little blip
on the radar right now.

But six months ago, ten years
ago, when you told somebody to get

WordPress, it's just download the
zip file, what do you do with it?

Now you can actually, Try it for free
in the browser, and that's not going

to help everyone, but it'll certainly
Onboard people faster because one

you can do it for free and you can
do it without any risk like you It's

not like you're breaking anything.

It's not like you have to save
this somewhere kind of thing.

You have to break your website and I think
that that's going to be the start to get

people on boarded and Ultimately, at the
end of the day, it, I mean, ultimately

at the end of the day, it is what it
is, like if people can't figure out

WordPress on their own, like that DIYer,
that you always have in this free, open

market, not just open source, but open
market, you'll have those other solutions

of Wix and Squarespace, so like their
market share is basically people who

are just frustrated with WordPress at
the end of the day, not literally, but

But, but there's a large portion who are
like, I don't want to do this myself.

Give me this app.

That's 10 bucks a month that I can,
that, that looks like it's good.

It looks like what I have and there's
tech support and that's a total viable

solution and WordPress WordPress.

com exists for that reason too.

but they're their own worst enemy because
of somebody on boards through wordpress.

org and they hate that experience
through some like 5 a month.

Cheap hosting plan.

then that person just says, I
don't, I don't care if wordpress.

com is the place to go.

I don't want WordPress.

I'm going to Squarespace and Wix until
they level up in their business life

or they realize Oh shit, I, I, I can't
do what I need to do with this website.

and then they move back to
WordPress or something else.

Mark: Yeah.

It's again, it's just, it's tough.

I feel like there's a, an.

a piece of it.

That's what is louder versus what is true.

in just a general opinion of
everything, because you know, I feel

like a lot of people would question
that idea of just simply like you

just brought up there, like dot.

com versus.

org.

What's the purpose of either?

who's, who are they being
marketed to and things like that.

And I'm just not sure.

Cause I hear a lot of opinions,
but then I don't, it doesn't get

reflected in like the way that it's
actually, You know, either updated

in, iterated on or, or what have you.

And, I don't, I don't, I don't know
if there's an actual, these are

some of the toughest, toughest,
toughest questions I feel like in

this hole, in this whole space.

Just because there's, there's
too many pains, there's too many

Matt: things.

Does what, what do you get out
of it for if you get an answer?

Mark: I mean, I don't know if I would
get anything out of it, but hopefully

it impacts some change, I guess.

I don't know.

Ah,

Matt: but change, change for what?

Like what, what is it going to change?

Like what change are you looking for?

Well,

Mark: I don't know if I'm looking for a
particular change, but I will say that

things are absolutely going to change.

Like for for instance, so like
you talked about AI recently.

I know you, I know you have some opinions
on that versus like professional themes.

AI website building.

Yeah, yeah.

ai, website building and like that
versus professional themes and things.

And I'm like, I'm very interested
to see where that goes.

Like I am, like I don't, I don't know
if I'm optimistic or pessimistic on it,

but like I think people are trying to
like that, that is like a real concern.

Like we could be, we could be having
another chat in five years and this

is like incredibly different now.

You can't predict that for sure.

A hundred percent right.

But it's like.

I don't know.

I just feel I feel like if the, again,
if the DIYers are the main audience,

I would be like on them like a
hawk, seeing like what they actually

want, what they actually want to do.

And I don't know if you can,
because you don't have a direct

access per se to them, which I get
that, but it's a real question.

And then the last point was, I kind
of forgot and now I've come back

to it, is, Is WordPress the end?

Is it?

is it the end solution?

Meaning, does somebody, go to,
get marketed to a Squarespace?

It's real easy?

Because I could see that
as one of the journeys.

The customer journeys.

Where they go there and then they
get limited and then they're like,

Hey, go to WordPress or have somebody
build you a WordPress website because

there's a lot more that you can do.

we all know that.

And we say that.

And it's like, how do we actually
communicate that where Hey, if you just

maybe started on WordPress, I know it
might be a little annoying, but just

learn Gutenberg and then you're going
to be like way better off because you're

already going to be kind of like kind
of settled in this, in this ecosystem.

If you ever need to hand it off, it's
going to be, you know, you're, you're

not going to be limited in any way.

they're all business decisions
though, for people that are literally

running businesses outside of
the tech space most of the time.

So it's a really hard
conversation to actually

Matt: have.

You'd have to have.

You know, if the DIY segment, you know,
you have to define and refine and all

that stuff because there are business
owners that will roll up their sleeves

because literally they don't, they
don't have the money to hire somebody

right now, so they'll roll up their
sleeves and they'll try to get it done.

You would imagine that's the type
of person they are if they're

going to start a business.

and then eventually business grows.

Yada, yada, yada, you
know the whole story.

And then they say, it's
time to hire a professional.

Hopefully, Well, maybe they're happy
with a Squarespace and Wix type solution.

So they hire a Squarespace and
Wix, specialist and they design

them a site and they're happy.

It's the different kind of site that
is doing probably more like publishing,

obviously something leveraging
custom post types and, and archives.

If you have a lot of, you know, tons of
content or data on your site, complex

workflows, all this other stuff.

And that's when they say, okay, these
platforms can't help me with that.

I'll go hire a professional or
they interview people and somebody

convinces them to use WordPress, right?

And I think it said, I think that
that's why when you saw, Joseph, talk

about like the next steps for the
community, this is something that.

You know, I've been holding onto
for all of the 2024 because end

of 2023, you know, the next thing
now is how is WordPress thriving.

We have to keep asking ourselves that
as good stewards of the community is

WordPress thriving, not just the software,
but the people in it and around it.

Are we encouraging ourselves
to, you know, reinvest back into

WordPress, learn WordPress, educate
others on WordPress, et cetera.

And.

You know, that's another that to me,
that's another segment for for growth.

And I think Josefa and team, including
Matt, realize that you don't want to lose

the community because if you lose the
community, it's a slow erosion effect.

And there's all kinds of issues right now
in that with WordPress, you know, age.

The software is, the software
itself is, is also aging.

the users are aging.

And yeah, when you look at AI, Certainly.

And who the hell knows five years could
be drastically different or could not.

But drastically different, like
where people can write their own

code and the chat GPT just ships
it off to a hosting platform.

You don't even know, nor do you care.

You say, build me a blogging system where
my five colleagues can log in and blog and

it just builds the whole system for you.

Now, maybe Matt's vision of WordPress
and Gutenberg is that there's a way

that that code is being used in AI
algorithms, and it's putting together

the underpinnings of WordPress and
Gutenberg is a standalone project.

So that stuff is just, you know, AI
knows Gutenberg and it's building you

these bespoke platforms using Gutenberg.

That sounds pretty cool.

You know, whether or not that
happens, I have no freaking

idea, but, it is definitely.

a risk to, you know, to WordPress.

But don't forget, it's not just a
risk to WordPress with 48 percent

of the content marketing space, or,
excuse me, content management space.

It's a risk to all these other
platforms that have 1 percent and

are already, and are charging people.

It's a closed commercial system.

So who's at risk more?

Wix or, Wix and Squarespace
or WordPress, you know?

Yeah, but anyway, at the end
of the day, AI site building

is very underwhelming for me.

Mark: Do you think, do you think,
do you think it's a fair statement

to say that the only thing that can
kill WordPress is WordPress itself?

Matt: no.

No, because I think there is
definitely a threat from, you know, AI.

And, There's definitely threats from,
from other open source platforms.

you know, Shopify is a threat.

I, I don't see it as, I don't
see like an, I don't, I don't

see an ending for WordPress.

I don't think anything is as
drastic as an ending to WordPress.

it might fall out of popularity, but.

You know, I don't see it being like
dethroned completely because they're open

source tools and packages that people have
been using for decades at this point, you

know, people are definitely still using I.

R.

C.

And chat rooms, you know,
versus social media.

So, you know, I don't, I don't see it
as grim as an outcome to wordpress.

Mark: How did, how did the initial run
up, how did that happen with WordPress?

Like when, when you were going through
that and you were like, I guess you

were seeing like that kind of happen.

Why, why would you, what were like
maybe the top couple of reasons why

you think that WordPress got to 43%?

Matt: Oh, largely because of,
well, number one, open source.

a lot of it, and this
is just my perspective.

I'm sure other people have different
perspectives, but, Open source number

one number two Giving the credit
back to Matt in the early days.

You had somebody willing to to pursue
Blogging and building out a blogging

platform and That was right right
place right time because blogging was

the thing it was pre social media and
You It, it started to become a site

builder, you know, to a degree back
then, because people kind of just

only knew websites as very complex
things or things that had text on it.

So if you could build this thing that
helped you publish things with text on

it, you're like, Oh, this is pretty cool.

And, yeah, just so many other factors.

technology was getting better,
faster, cheaper every day.

it was really like the perfect storm to
build this, this publishing tool and that

ramped up with the rest of the economy
of web design, where you front page, you

know, Corel had website building tools.

Apple had, Page mill.

I don't remember what it was.

Apple had.

I mean, it was a whole market.

Adobe flash like the consumer
internet was happening.

I mean, it was just perfect,
perfect, perfect storm to

get all these things going.

And then you had the financial crisis
of 2008 where That's when I started our

agency that might I didn't lose a job.

We sold.

We used to run car dealerships.

We sold our dealerships because
General Motors was going bankrupt.

and then we started this.

We started our agency, but, you also
had so many people who started so many

agencies that are still in business
today in the WordPress space started.

Back then as well, because
they were leaving their jobs

or their job got shut down.

So everybody kind of turned to this
boom of, of WordPress because it was,

it was amazing, you know, for that
kind of technology was amazing to

start a services business back then.

And you saw it again with COVID, right?

All of a sudden the jump in themes,
plugins, WordPress hosting just

frickin went off the charts because
everyone was like, what do I do?

I lost my job, I want to do something,
or I have a business, and I need

to start selling shit online.

So another boom because
of like the economy.

So, there was a lot of
stuff, you know, at play.

And again, back to the open source
side of it, if it were like commercial

out of the gate, you would not have
seen, It, you know, it would have

never spread, you know, and then
compound the community and all of us,

spreading the knowledge of WordPress.

That's, that's why it's
grown, in my opinion.

Mark: Okay, so right place, right time?

Matt: Yeah, just a lot
of other things, yeah.

And Drupal was massive
back then to Drupal.

It was Drupal and WordPress
was the arms race, and Drupal

just didn't did not win out.

It was much more complex.

It was looked at much more of
an enterprise type solution,

and it was built with that.

It was built with that mindset, and
that's actually a good, that would add.

You know, it could be a whole Documentary
unto itself, but I was big in the in

the Drupal That's I came into this whole
market through Drupal And it wasn't for

the designer that I was working with
who was like Drupal's terrible to design

with I need this thing called WordPress
WordPress is way better and The DrupalCon,

I forget what year I went, 2003, 2004.

I can't remember.

It was in Boston.

It was freaking massive, but
it was very, very corporate,

like right out of the gate.

and I think because of that, and
because the company Acquia, like Dries

Butart, who's the founder of Drupal,
he started a company called Acquia.

And it was very much more enterprise
y than automatic was when Matt

Mullenweg started Automatic.

And I think that was a perfect example
of, they had so many enterprise type

clients and they catered to that market.

That, that's the lane
that Drupal stayed in.

Still is.

And WordPress was much more like,
Mullenweg was just like, Freedom, man.

Everybody wants a blog, dude.

and Dreeze became much
more of a corporate entity.

And I remember when they, I was
there when they announced Acquia.

And people, I think, I'm pretty sure
I heard boos come out of the crowd.

Because you had a bunch of like
open source developers were like,

No, this is not what we want.

We don't want to
commercialize this software.

And they did, and that was
the path that they stuck to.

Mark: Hmm.

So was it open source to
begin with you're saying?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it

Matt: still is.

Mark: Oh, it is.

Okay.

Yeah But okay, it's
commercialized in a sense

It's quite the ride

Matt: Well, that's again you want to
touch on the free versus paid stuff

Mark: we can do that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean like for freed versus paid
specifically with you know, I don't know.

Which way do we want to go here?

Just I mean, cause again, I'm thinking
of it from a different angle, but

I don't know what, what questions
you have or where would you start?

What's your, what's

Matt: your, what's your angle?

You said you, you said it could
take a whole seminar for free

versus paid or something like that.

You said something.

Mark: Okay.

So yeah.

So like free versus paid plugins,
like with, with, I don't know, just my

opinion, my lived experience and what I
see with other people is that WordPress

is fantastic because it is open source.

It is.

More or less free to kind of like
get started with, and you could

spin up a blog, just paying for
hosting and things like that.

I think the idea of having 50, 000 or
so, whatever plugins in the repository

is in a lot of ways, awesome.

And in a lot of ways, potentially,
obviously scary for a litany of

reasons, but you don't obviously, if
you, again, this is the whole thing

is you have to almost go through.

the, the gauntlet to know
some of these things.

if you're a DIYer, like if you're
a DIYer and you just search, okay,

I'm making my pottery website.

I have no idea how to put a form on here.

I got to type in, you know, give me a
free like forms on WordPress or something.

Or maybe there's something
that's kind of already in there.

I don't know, but like you
have to like type in forms

into the, into the plugin repo.

I remember doing this and I'm like, okay,
I have no idea what any of these are.

Am I going to go cross reference these?

Am I just going to.

Whatever.

So then you pick any free one and
then you have something in there.

If it does the job, that's cool.

If you need something more at some
point, maybe you pay for that one

or maybe you find a different one.

So it's like really cool that that's
an option, but for DIY wires, I don't

even know how we talk about it because
most of the time they're probably like,

I don't even know how you, I don't
know at what point you get to as a DIY

where you're like actively going to pay
for something that you, that you can't

like directly see the value prop for.

if it was like some sort of software
that premium plugin that was specific for

that and there was no free option, maybe.

but that's one piece of it.

And then the second part of it though
is the way that I think more is like

I'm building websites for other people.

So, and I'm managing those websites.

I just literally don't want to use a bunch
of free plugins because not that there's

anything wrong with free plugins, but it's
probably gonna limit me in some capacity.

It's probably gonna be Somewhat less
supported in a way, like it's going to

be less funded because it's free most
likely unless it has a premium counterpart

that's whatever that's, that's,
that's generating revenue and things.

But the other thing is I just want to
have like less headaches in a way and

that is too much of a generalization
is some free plugins are perfect.

It'll never give you any trouble,
but that's the way that I think.

And I feel like if I'm paying, then I,
I ought to be receiving better service.

I ought to be having less problems and
I have a reason to actually complain.

If I, if that does happen.

So it's really two, again it's
a two sided thing just because

of the nature of WordPress.

But that's kind of the high
level of like free versus paid.

I feel like a lot of, like it's different
for everyone, but if you're building

for other people, there's, there's, I
feel like there's definitely an argument

to choose premium more so than free.

And free stuff if necessary.

Matt: Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's two
different problems, right?

So if you say Oh, the end user
has issues, difficulty navigating

the, the plugin repository.

Absolutely.

Right.

I think everyone, you
know, agrees on that.

And.

that's a whole, you know,
conundrum onto itself.

We've seen plenty of, of issues.

We talked about this last time,
back in the day themes, you could

just put your theme up there.

If you review the most themes that
would get you hundreds of thousands

of dollars in sales per year from
having that top spot, that exposure,

you know, plug in the same thing.

And once you got into the plugin repo,
effectively you could, This has been an

issue for many years and I think it's a
lot better now, but there was a time where

man, once you got past the initial check
of the plugin review team, once you're

in, You could just change your plug in
and do whatever the hell you wanted to do.

you know, and get away with stuff.

Little, little up sells,
little nagging up sells, right?

You know, in terms of
commercializing the software.

Whereas themes was always different.

Every time you made a commitment,
Every time you made a commit to

the theme, they would review it
before it would, you know, go live.

So there was like, and there was always
this debate of wow, why do the themes

get treated different than the plugins?

Well, because there's so many
more plugins and plugins has

so much more code than themes.

So there's just not enough manpower.

Then that would snowball in.

Well, what are we doing here?

Why not make us, and you just saw
this and Vato sold to Shutterstock

for quarter of a billion dollars or
whatever the number was, Envato and

theme forest was massive back 2008, 2012.

Like their run was ridiculous.

And people would always say,
well, look, look at this theme.

theme space, marketplace over here.

Why can't we have that at wordpress.

org?

you know, and that's, that's still
a, a, a debate for some, like why

not have verified users, little
check mark next to your name?

why can't we have better support?

Why can't we have better data?

So yeah, like improving that
experience is, has always been a thing.

one, I think just, just not enough.

It's just the sheer structure and.

Manpower that would take.

Remember, wordpress.

org, is a non profit.

It doesn't, it's not an,
it's not a commercial entity.

So it's not oh yeah, we'll just hire a
bunch of people and just, just do it.

there could be a way to do it and
everybody would be taxed just like

you're taxed at Apple 30%, but the
distribution channel is pretty massive.

So I had always said back when I was
selling themes and plugins, tax me.

I want a trusted distribution channel.

And that would have been the place.

That's one half of your question.

The other half of the question is yeah,
man, picking free versus commercial.

A good agency owner service person
should always be looking to, you

know, hedge their, business continuity
or whatever you want to call it.

Right.

So very important plugins.

Page builders, forms, themes, you
know, whatever it is that you're, that

you're, you know, e commerce, other,
you know, other things that are in

there that are like detrimental to
your, to your support of a customer.

Absolutely, you should have a commercial
license to get that commercial support.

trusted, you know, reliable, and, Works
with the business and you know that makes

total sense because the last thing you
want to do is Sell a big client project

and then you know, you're just using
some throwaway plug in that breaks the

site And then there's no support and
then you have to go back to tell and

this was very very prominent on the theme
forest slash Code Canyon days because

again, I've told the story before One
of the low hanging fruit customers we

used to go after to a real estate agents
still shitty websites today shitty

websites back then and What did we do?

We used?

Business directory plugins off of
Envato because I was foolish and I

was like, oh, yeah 59 for this thing.

Absolutely, and It's somebody in some
unknown place in the world who's coded it

and then it doesn't work Or the code is
terrible and there's no documentation and

then we're stuck holding the bag going.

Oh, yeah Your site keeps crashing because
you have too many real estate listings and

this plugin just simply can't handle it
Or there's some rogue like memory leak in

the php and it's crashing the the hosting
now again This was a long time ago.

So those were big issues back then
probably less today But yeah, it was,

it was the worst because then you're
like, God damn, you knew every weekend

the site was going to crash, right?

They're doing an open house.

The site's going to crash.

and that was poor code.

and somebody, you're not getting
support from, but there were

solutions for many hundreds of
dollars that service that market.

And I was like, guys, I can't,
I wasn't selling projects.

high enough dollars to justify that fee.

I was certainly wasn't going to pass
it on to my client because I was trying

to be the person who is just no, no,
we're doing it all ourselves, man.

We got it.

This is us.

We're custom coders.

you know, that's early days.

And then you learn your lessons and
then you start to understand, oh,

people don't care about the code.

They want professional support.

So add another zero at the end,
tell them that you'll be there

for them and be honest, you know,
and the world's a better place.

And you know, that those are lessons
that, you know, I learned the hard way.

Mark: Yeah, I mean, I, like I
said, I've started there as well.

I think everyone does, with the,
with the free side of things, just

because it's very easily accessible.

But yeah, I mean, just for me,
it was honestly, a lot of times

it was a limitation thing because
I couldn't do something with the

free tool, whatever I wanted to do.

And then I would, and then I would
rank up and obviously the support is,

you know, is huge as well when you're
trying to deal with other clients.

But again, it's two different problems
for two different avatars and I

don't know if that's ever going to
be something that, I don't know.

I'd be, I feel like I'd be
interested to see, do a deep dive

on any other platform as well.

you know, we talked to Sam about Webflow.

You know, I wonder how
they handle end users.

Concerns versus agency concerns,
or they're just not at the scale

that it, it actually matters.

It doesn't matter.

You can hear

Matt: it.

It doesn't matter because every
one of their users is paid.

Right.

So remember wordpress.

org doesn't, doesn't make a dime.

There's that, that kind of that just
doesn't exist in, in the wordpress.

org world.

No one at wordpress.

org is actively thinking, are we
going to make payroll this month?

do we have to like, what do we have
to do to keep this business going?

It's a very, very different,
very, very different animal.

Whereas Webflow is constantly looking
at the competition, marketing, sales,

adding features, charging people 15,
000 for bandwidth, you know, like

that, like their business model is,
is completely, completely different.

yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I
think a lot of your concerns and questions

would be smoothed over when we see the
day that automatic becomes much more.

The front runner for WordPress.

And, oh by the way, get WordPress,
you can get a free version

of WordPress at wordpress.

org.

Hmm, like that'll be the, that'll be
the thing that really changes like,

the way this is all perceived, because
I, I honestly think that at some

point, automatic needs to be much more
profitable in the face of all these other

hosting companies in order to survive.

and you will see, I said this
before, countless times, you will

see get wordpress at wordpress.

com.

Get, get, Get WordPress wherever you
want to host your, just like we say,

listen to your podcast, wherever
you listen to podcasts, run this

WordPress website, wherever you run
WordPress websites with Jetpack.

And then in an eight point font
below that, download your version

of WordPress for free, right?

Like the open source
version that we know today

Mark: is, is how help me
understand how that situation.

Is different than the one
you outlined with Drupal.

Matt: It's not, it's the same.

It's not the future.

I'm like, I'm not looking forward to it.

Right.

I just think that that's going to be the
only path really that automatic can go

in the future, unless Matt comes up with
some amazing, you know, idea, but this

is why he gets so crazy about, you know,
places like GoDaddy who make billions of

dollars on web hosting, much more than
Automattic does, and all these other

web hosts because they're making a lot
more money than Automattic, hosting.

Mark: With that, with that, the way
that I interpret that, like reading

into all that is obviously open source
and closed source things have their

own Inherent problems and stuff, but
is that, is that a separate concern?

Is, is, is WordPress being open source?

Am I, is this get conflated too often?

We're like, Oh, the, the, the
idea that it's open source is

inherently hurting or benefiting
what we just talked about there.

Is that a different, do you
understand what I'm saying?

is that a different concern?

Like open source is a category of
literally just like code, right?

that's the, it just means like you
can, you could fork the code or the

code's proprietary, like proprietary
versus not proprietary, more or less.

Right.

Like that piece of it.

Matt: Yeah.

I mean, yes, there's legalities around it.

Like the GPL license, like you can't.

Right.

Yeah.

That's, but it does not hurt.

It does not hurt it for sure.

Mark: Well, what I'm saying though,
is like a private company can be

running a open source project.

Automatic.

Matt: Automatic is the example,

Mark: right?

So that's not, those two things
aren't like mutually exclusive.

You can't like, it doesn't have
to go one way or the other.

It doesn't have to be a non,
are you saying that wordpress.

org being a nonprofit doesn't
have to be like that or

Matt: yeah.

So, so, other examples, Red Hat
Linux, Ubuntu Linux, same thing.

They all have open sources, just,
well, I say it's just, but when it, in

terms of business, it is a particular.

It's not really a business model, but it's
something that you can do in business.

Android is open source, right?

You know,

Mark: that's what I think is it?

The distinction is open source because
it sounds like it's some people and

I've often played it open source.

The specific distinction is open
source is not a business model.

It doesn't have anything to do with that.

It is just the categorization
and classification of the project

or the product or whatever.

Right?

So it's and you can actually

Matt: see the code.

Exactly.

That's what I mean.

Mark: Proprietary or patented or
some shit like proprietary would

be the antonym of open source.

Yeah.

So that's your project, your code
base, whatever is open source or

proprietary, but then your business
doesn't have to be the business model

would be, or business type would
be like for profit or nonprofit.

Those two things are separate.

things like you could have a for profit
business running an open source project.

You could have a nonprofit business.

Well, I guess you probably couldn't
have a nonprofit business running a

for profit, like a proprietary product.

Matt: It wouldn't be like the
classification of business.

You'd you, your question really would
be how does that business make money?

And it's, it's very easy.

Cause again, like you look at red hat
Ubuntu as to like software open source

examples is you can go and do it yourself.

Customer.

Or you pay us to do it.

That's the trade off.

The same thing you see with plugins,
like free versus paid plugins, is the

same thing WordPress could do if they
shifted the way they pa if Automatic

shifted the way they package themselves.

Which would be very difficult because
the WordPress foundation theoretically,

is set up to protect WordPress, the
patents of, or the copyright of WordPress,

the logo, the namespace and WordPress.

org.

but there could be a world where you see
WordPress position itself as, and you kind

of see it now with the, the hosting page.

if we go to wordpress.

org slash hosting, I think finally,
I forgot the E in WordPress.

WordPress.

Oh, how about that?

It redirects it slash hosting.

So wordpress.

com.

I don't know when wordpress.

com actually has been on the hosting
page, but it's blue host hosting or

dream hosts and WordPress, right?

And this is another highly debated topic,
but the point is, is WordPress could

position itself to say the best place to
experience hosted WordPress is wordpress.

com.

The best way to experience
WordPress without wordpress.

com is to get it with Jetpack.

And then for the rest of you
fools, go grab it and download

it and host it somewhere else
if you want to play with it.

But that's, that's the way that
big businesses do open source.

Here's my free operating system,
Red Hat and Ubuntu Linux.

Go run it on your own, or pay for the
commercial license, and we'll support you.

It's the same thing
that we do with plugins.

Get it for free, or upgrade
here and we'll give you support.

Mark: Okay.

So then I think the last thing to
pull that together then is that why,

when we, when we made the comparison
between that automatic, it's already

kind of pseudo led, it seems like by
automatic, obviously, but like a more

front facing automatic lead on the
WordPress situation in that reality,

compared that to the Drupal reality,
why is that reality of WordPress not

your favorable Outcome and what would be

That's probably a pretty
deep question, yeah Yeah,

Matt: I mean honestly on the high
level I I Still probably would I

would not mind that I wouldn't mind.

I don't care if WordPress did that It
would be a I wouldn't like it from man.

We all kind of feel like we've
built this thing together.

We've all been around this for so long
that it kind of would feel weird, to

kind of like push aside now, of course
we're just theory crafting here.

We don't really know like this is
going to happen, but if it did,

to kind of push aside the word,
the free open source side of it.

And kind of like hide it a little
bit and put it in its own little like

compartment and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We got this over here.

that would kind of feel bad.

I, you know, it would be so hard
to do because the community is so

large and so vocal and WordCamps
already run through the foundation.

Remember WordCamps are a foundation
thing, not an automatic thing.

Okay.

It's not, it's not an automatic event.

It's a foundation event.

So, the community is still pretty strong.

in that space.

I would not mind it.

They're just not like it
and I would not mind it.

What I wouldn't want is for WordPress
to be owned by Salesforce because forget

it, you know, that's the kiss of death.

So again, I keep saying this automatic
is still the best steward for WordPress,

even if they position themselves,
And I also think that would be the

medicine we would all kind of need to
swallow to a degree to be like, yes, we

know you have to monetize to survive.

It's the same thing us
plugin developers say, right?

If you have a free plugin in the repo and
people are bashing your free plugin or

asking for more and you're like, well,
Give me 59 bucks, man, and buy a license.

And I can survive and continue to do this.

that's why a lot of people are, you know,
should be against the lifetime deals.

you saw this with bricks, they had
lifetime deals, but obviously to survive,

you got to charge your customers.

You have, you need money to come in.

and guess what?

Those prices should go up.

You know, like I put this
out as a poll the other day.

How many people have raised their prices
in the WordPress space both, on the

software side and the hourly pricing side?

Because, man, I'm talking to
different random ass contractors,

pest control people, right?

Squirrels.

You know?

And then the prices are just outrageous.

And they're like, well, the price is gone.

Everything is so much more expensive.

And then I sit here and go, man,
I haven't seen A WordPress plug in

raised their prices in a decade.

Mark: Yeah.

Matt: You know?

Are, are the consultants
raising their prices?

Because And then the thing that
kills me is when these contractors,

they don't even get back to you.

They don't even care.

Right?

Had a guy come, put mulch, in my yard,
cut my grass, do the, the spring clean up.

Cracked the side of my
stairs with his lawnmower.

Didn't even tell me.

Sent them a message with a photo.

Hey, what's up with this
stare that you broke?

Yeah, I saw that I couldn't really
couldn't do much about it Awesome, you

know, I don't go into a client's website
delete a bunch of pages and then Chewing

on an apple when they call me up going.

Hey, what's up with all those pages?

Yeah, I deleted him Sorry, and then
just move on with my life, you know But

that's a whole like, you know traditional
business versus online business because

there's so much more competition in
our space I think a lot of people are

afraid to go up in price Customer can
just be like, okay mark delete you move

on to the next guy Who's gonna charge
me 50 bucks an hour to not saying that

that's what you charge But you know,
the idea is you know, all of this stuff

is is so volatile You anyway, I forgot
where I went or how I got on that, but.

Mark: Well, just quick
point on the pricing thing.

Yeah.

I mean, I think if you're a reasonable
person or from stuff, cause like I say

reasonable, but it's if, I guess if
you're making any money, like doing

things that we're doing, like I always
think these are incredible deals.

I mean, any plugin for 59 a year,
whatever, like 200 a year, whatever.

I mean the amount of value
that I'm getting out of that.

software, you know, I'm happy to pay it.

And then also it's if I don't pay it,
like you said, it could be gone tomorrow.

And now I have to factor in how much
time, energy and money it's going to make

to meet for, to find another, you know,
solution that's going to do that because,

you know, I wasn't paying or they weren't
charging me for those types of things.

So you really got to think
about it a little differently.

Oh, that's, yeah.

Matt: That's how I got on that is
because I was talking about the,

the survivability of, of automatic.

Yeah.

At some point automatic.

Has to start turning, you know more
revenue other that they just keep

going for more investments, and that's
just another you know, slippery slope

and Said it before I'll say it again.

I think Matt is trying to outsmart the VCS
and Be like I don't need this VC money.

I can do this without you.

The difference is it's it just means
that You He's thinking that wordpress.

com and jetpack are going to be the
ways and he's got WP cloud now, which

is the infrastructure for hosting.

So that's another big moneymaker,
that might soften the blow across all

of this stuff, but certainly jetpack
is the, that's the product, right?

That's the product to monetize
all of these free hosted

websites everywhere in the world.

And.

It's only going to get more aggressive.

But I also don't mind it because
I understand you got to eat too.

Mark: There's no way to
market these things though.

there's no way to market as a, as
a non, even not even a nonprofit.

I mean, I'm not saying there's,
I don't know if there's a budget

or anything, but that, but like
you have Wix, and all that sort of

stuff, but then you have wordpress.

com, which effectively if positioned
correctly and has those like, you

know, standard tools in there, Couldn't
there be a way where WordPress.

com effectively becomes a direct
competitor to those types of things

with the Gutenberg baked in and all that
sort of stuff where it's like literally,

what, what does a random person know the
difference between Wix and Squarespace?

You know, I barely even
know the difference.

It's they're very, it's,
they're very similar, you know?

So it's like, what if we made Gutenberg,
like spearheaded that, made that

situation, Basically, like the core
experience in WordPress, maybe this is the

goal, but the core experience in WordPress
is a direct competitor like a Squarespace.

And then the marketing around that,
again, I know there's not necessarily

a budget, but like then the sentiment,
and if we could market it in any

way, becomes, hey, come over here.

Because it's kind of the same, maybe have,
you actually do have better features, you

do have more of a, more, more headroom.

But then here's the beautiful part.

Mrs.

Pottery person.

you need a website right now and you
don't want to pay a lot of money.

That totally makes sense.

Everybody understands that you're
getting your business off the ground.

If one day though, your business does
begin to, to blossom even more and you

continue this, you are probably going to
want to delegate some of these things like

you would other stuff, and you're already
going to be on a platform that is like

extremely robust and you have a lot of
headroom and you have a million people in

this world that can handle that for you.

I feel like that sentiment and
that like customer journey and

that thought process there.

Might be something that could be ran with.

I mean, I'm sure there's
holes in that too.

And that's, that's, that's

Matt: how, that's how wordpress.

com works now.

Right.

So that's, and that's only, a very
recent change where they allowed,

plugins to be installed on wordpress.

com hosting, because for years, if not
a decade, I don't know if it still is.

WordPress.

com was one massive
WordPress multi site install.

Now it used to be a thing
that all these developers used

to talk about how wordpress.

com the whole instance of wordpress.

com of everyone's website
was one multi site install.

I don't know if that's still the same.

now that they, support so many
different pricing plans now, and now

they support installs, plugin and
theme installs, they even have staging.

So for, for your typical 30 bucks a month,
you get your typical managed web hosting.

Experience, themes and plugins,
staging sites, FTP access,

GitHub connections, etc.

And the staging site works pretty good.

I used it the other day when I was
re launching the podcast setup.

com.

you know.

So, and below 30 a month is the whole
concept that you just illustrated.

Start here.

Start for free.

If you just want a
subdomain, janespottery.

wordpress.

com, go nuts.

You'll have it on a subdomain and
you'll have a little wordpress.

com ad.

If you want to add a domain
name to it, I think it's 100

bucks for the year or something.

I don't know.

And you can put your domain
and it removes the ad.

And then if you want to install
themes and plugins from the

repo, then it's 30 bucks a month.

But why would you, when
jetpack is there, right?

From the very basic, basic user.

Mark: Yeah.

I mean, as a, as an agency owner of
somebody that could potentially be

doing business with that person in
three to five years, I am a little I'm.

kind of like holding back throw up
in the sense of what I'd have to

do to kind of make sure everything
is on par there, but at least

everything would be on the same place.

Everything would be, they would already
kind of know like WordPress a little bit.

They would, they would
already have the data there.

I'm sure I could move, you know,
the data, like the, I guess I don't

know what that would be hosted
with or where that, that domain is

actually necessarily registered at.

But my point is like at least
they're kind of in the same place.

You know what I mean?

Rather than being over at Squarespace,
and they're like, Oh, we've been paying

Squarespace, we've been paying Wix, and
then I have to come in and tell them,

it's no, WordPress is actually, you know,
the way to go as you continue to scale.

so, I don't, I don't know.

I just feel if we could, if that
could be the sentiment, where, kind

of push them, push them, And, and
educate them now because they're

not going to know the difference.

They're not going to know the difference
at first, and it's not going to

matter really which way they go.

It's just like later down the line,
if most people are in agreement

that WordPress is the place to end
up for most things, obviously not,

maybe not everything, I guess, then,
yeah, I just feel like that's the,

that's an option, for the marketing
portion of it or the messaging.

Matt: Yeah.

I mean, this is.

com.

This is why automatic.

com should befriend the us more, right?

It should be more friendly with us
because I would probably also argue

that there's a lot of us in this space.

That are some of the biggest referrers to
the Squarespace's and Wix's of the world.

Because we know, like, when a customer,
when a person comes up to you and

you're like, in the back of your
head, you're like, no, no way you're

going to be able to run WordPress.

And I ain't teaching you.

Right?

So, go use this Wix and Squarespace thing.

Because you don't want them
mad at you either, to be like,

you told me to use WordPress.

I couldn't figure it out.

It's yeah, because you
need professional help.

so.

They should be thinking, oh
yeah, com is getting better.

And I hinted at this in my last article
that I published yesterday on Sunday.

The request for the traditional
WordPress admin on WordPress.

com.

WP Admin, right?

Just to have it look and operate
just like a WordPress install.

There was a beta request form that you
could fill out and request access to that.

And, and my theory is, yeah, because
maybe hope, hopefully maybe more

developers are starting to use wordpress.

com and refer wordpress.

com more.

Now that you can install themes and
plugins for 30 bucks a month, which

is industry on par average managed web
hosting 30 bucks a month to do that stuff.

Whereas years ago, you were
like not a couple of years ago.

You're just like, ah, Wix and Squarespace.

I would have loved to be able to
tell people for the last decade

that I've been referring to Wix
and Squarespace to use wordpress.

com.

Now I can, because themes
and plugins and guess what?

You should also be excited for the
data liberation project, for migrating

inter WordPress from WordPress
to WordPress, because yes, if, if

more people are using wordpress.

com and a customer comes to
you and they're on wordpress.

com and they're like, I want a custom
site, you can be like, okay, If

there is limitation on wordpress.

com, you could pull that and go to your
favorite web host with it because of

whatever challenges you might be having
with dot com and poured it right over

and start building in your favorite,
you know, environment slash host.

so.