The WP Minute+

Matt: Mark Szymanski, back
for another WP Minute.

Matt Medeiros,

it's always a

Matt: pleasure,

buddy.

Matt: I've been calling you my
co host as I go about different

podcasts and stuff like that.

I hope you don't mind.

I'm fine with it.

I'm excited to be here.

Matt: I'm not paying you.

I'm just calling you.

Yeah.

We're working on that in the back end.

We're working

Matt: on that

in the back

Matt: end.

Uh, we, we already recorded this similar
topic, and as I tell you often, we're

skating to where the puck is headed,
and the fine folks at WP Product Talk

actually really took it a step further,
this subject of, uh, is WordPress

on the decline, looking at stats.

Uh, this is stuff that Noel talked and,
and, uh, Yoast have been, um, presenting

and talking about for, for many years,
of course, but of course, over the last

year, uh, Noel's talk at WordCamp EU,
I believe it was, um, or over this past

year, not last year, but this past year,
when he did that presentation in Europe,

that, you know, really, uh, caused
some ripples across the WordPress lake.

Uh, they did a great job.

I'll link that up in the show notes.

I already did a blog post recapping
that, that episode on the WP minute.

Thanks But Mark and I largely talk
about the same thing, looking at

Google trends and, and, and asking
ourselves, is WordPress on the decline?

We're going to talk about it again
for a little bit, but I also want

to talk about two other things.

One, I'm going to play this clip
from Josepha from WordCamp US 2023,

which is almost a year Or probably
today, like a year old, um, from when

they, they did, uh, State of the Word
last year, or the State of the Word

update, or whatever the heck they
call it, at the end of WordCamps.

And, um, we'll play that clip
because I think it's important

to understand all of this stuff.

Um, we are always operating in sort of
a lag state where Josefa and Matt and

maybe other folks in the leadership
council And, Are talking about things

and making decisions that are impacting
us throughout the rest of the year.

Let me, let me just play this clip.

It'll start to make more sense.

I'm picking up, um, deep into her talk at
the future of WordPress, but here we go.

You're trying to figure out how
to get involved with WordPress.

I've got a simple first thing.

One, use the software.

So you're already doing
it probably, right?

That's the easiest way of joining into
the WordPress project to make sure

that we continue to thrive into the
future because we exist for as long

as people want to use our software.

Matt: That little moment right there that
we exist for as long as people want to use

our software and the rest of this talk,
at least in my opinion, and I also wrote

a summary about this, this presentation.

is Josefa was really hitting on the
fact that WordPress needs humans now.

Like I took that when I listened to
that entire talk, and I know this was

just a little blip in that radar talk.

So if you've never heard it
before, listen to the whole thing.

But what she's encouraging for WordPress
to thrive is for more people to,

you know, to be excited about it, to
educate, to promote it and to market it.

Again, it's a call back to what
this, today's episode is about.

In that moment, one year ago, which was
probably realized a year before that

talk was created, WordPress is going
to, we're in that plateau right now.

Like, let's all just come to reality.

Some people are alarmists and saying
it's, it's gonna, you know, it's the

bottom is going to fall out that we're
looking at numbers and it is going down,

but it's not really going down that much.

I think everyone realized that,
yeah, we're going to hit a plateau.

We're 20 years in.

Yeah, we haven't innovated
as fast as we wanted to.

Um, it's not as sexy
as the next competitor.

It is kind of old and lethargic.

But, in order to keep going, we
know we're not going to get those

features in fast enough to, all of a
sudden, this thing's going to start

going up and to the right again.

So, oh, by the way, we need people now.

Like, WordPress needs people.

And that was a little, you know,
reflection, in my opinion, of leadership

saying, we need to start working with
our community a little bit better.

So as much as we,

uh, criticize them about maybe the lack
of communication and the lack of working

with the community, in my opinion, that
talk is what we're seeing now, or help

bring us to where we are now with Anne
McCarthy, Rich Tabor, even Jamie Marsland

joining head of WordPress YouTube.

We're starting to see those
dominoes fall from that talk.

In my opinion.

Leadership has said, we
need the humans again.

Right?

You're feeling a little bit appreciated.

You're feeling a lot more appreciated
these days as a content creator.

You know, a decade after I've
been in this game, where I felt so

underappreciated it wasn't even funny.

Um, so I've, I think what we're starting
to see are those, those cards play out.

Josefa and team realizing a year ago and
probably many months or a year before

that going, Oh God, we got to make a plan.

to reconnect with this community
because that's how WordPress is going

to grow over the next couple of years.

It's not going to be a Gutenberg
block or a feature that we throw in.

We gotta get people on
board with the messaging.

You could argue like I do, 10
years too late, or right on time.

I don't know, depends on what,
uh, how optimistic you are.

But that was my opinion.

I wanted to play that from Josepha because
I look to those talks from Josepha and

Matt Mullenweg's State of the Words
as the milestones to the year ahead.

So when you start pounding on
the table, why this, why that?

Why not them?

Why not us?

I like to go back a year ago and say,
look at these milestone presentations

from leadership and what can you reverse
engineer from that in your moment of time?

That's, that's how I look at this stuff.

Your thoughts, meaty subject, but
do you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, you made a couple points there.

Uh, yeah, there was a lot there.

Um, I mean, with that, with that little
blurb specifically, I would be really

interested to see if that's actually what
was meant by that, if there was anything

kind of behind that, or if it's just
kind of like, again, kind of connecting

dots that may or may not be there.

Um, but again, I mean, you know, reality
and what's going on, again, I gotta tip

my hat all the time to Anne McCarthy.

Rich Tabor, all the people that are
doing interviews, even Matt Mullenweg,

obviously, doing interviews, like,
Again, I always say this, but, like,

I'm newer here, right, and I would
say the one really cool thing about

this whole space of WordPress is just
how seemingly, not all, I wouldn't

say, like, extremely easily, but how
seemingly accessible everyone is.

Even like, you know, somebody
like Matt Mullen, right?

Like, I mean, we could, I know
you've interviewed him, the

Product Talk interviewed, Product
Talk interviewed him recently.

I'm sure if I reached out to him,
he would at least consider it.

You know what I mean?

Like, you know, it's just, it's really
cool cause you can't do that elsewhere.

I don't think that you, it's
as easy in other places, so.

Matt: Can't call up Tim Apple and be
like, Hey man, Tim, get on the phone.

Yeah, seriously.

And um, so I think that
that's really cool.

Really, really awesome.

At the same time, like, The question that
I would have to you, trying to put the

puzzle pieces together in my head, would
be, we're talking, if you, if you used

this last year as like, maybe a signal
that we're trying to get back into like,

the community and like, at least leverage
more of the great minds in the community

and like, the input, the opinions and
all that sort of stuff, which, that's

a deeper conversation, but assuming
that is partially the case, right?

Partially, the, the, the methodology.

What do you, what happened when I
wasn't here, so to speak, and when other

people weren't here, like, beforehand?

Like, was it really community centric, and
then it fell off because it got really big

really fast, and then it kind of is coming
back now because we realized we need that?

You mentioned it in kind of like
the opening monologue, so to speak,

there, like, what, what, what was the,
the condensed version of all that?

Did we, Did that kind of get lost at
some point and I want to caveat real

quick though because this whole sense of
community There is absolutely a WordPress

community but as you've literally said
before it doesn't actually mean anything

in in one aspect of You it's open source
software like I told like when we first

started having these conversation I was
like, why don't they just do this this

and this or why don't they listen to us?

And they're like it that's not how
it works So the sense of, I feel

like there's a lot of language thing.

I was talking about this on
my live stream yesterday.

The language in this space
though, is extremely confusing.

So that's just, that's
kind of where I'm at.

I know I threw a lot back
at you there, but yeah.

Matt: Um, Yeah, so for sure, this
is just a little blip on the radar.

That little snippet, the way that I
digested her presentation was they

need people for WordPress to thrive.

Like everyone needs to get on
board in some form or fashion.

And if you continue that clip from
where I left it off, she starts

talking about like learning WordPress.

And, and, uh, and earlier in the
presentation, Also talking about how

WordPress can literally change lives
and, and I also agree with that because

it changed my life and it changed
so many other lives that I know from

either people starting services,
business, product, business, et cetera.

We're all able to thrive personally
when WordPress is doing well

and I think that was, that was
her sort of message to everyone.

What was the community like before this?

Um, I think we're, we're in that unique,
interesting time where there was never.

This, this feeling that we have in
WordPress, while some of the arguments

are the same, um, we, we might be at
a different sort of, uh, velocity,

or our footprint is a lot bigger.

So, for example, uh, you know,
when, when folks like KG and, and

all these other folks, uh, are, you
know, railing against, You know, why

leadership doesn't pay attention to the
website builders that are out there.

Why aren't they listening to us?

We're the ones making a hundred
sites, a thousand sites for clients.

Like, we're in the weeds
building this thing.

Make this software better for us.

This was the same argument that I
had ten years ago with Mullenweg when

Mullenweg was shipping Jetpack as the
way that WordPress is going to grow.

Right?

And I was like, wait a minute, how
is, how, how are you saying Jetpack

has grown or how, how are you tying
together WordPress's growth because of

Jetpack, which it was something that
he said at, uh, at a Pressnomics, which

is what led me to my first interview,
uh, with him talking about that.

I didn't pull any clips from that
episode, but I will in the future.

And there's, there's the
same kind of, uh, strife.

It's just in, in the
It's different sizes now.

Then it was just Jetpack and now it's
like you're looking at all of WordPress

going, why haven't you made, you know,
WordPress better for us, uh, instead

of this little, you know, plugin.

We've all had, we've had these,
these struggles for a while.

I think what's interesting now is that
because the software has gotten better

over the last, let's call it 10 years.

10 years and the, uh, introduction
of other page building tools.

name all of them.

All of them are responsible.

You know, Beaver Builder, Divi,
Elementor, Bricks, every page builder,

um, Visual Composer, has brought in a
whole new breed of, of customers and

users into, or users into WordPress.

Over the last, let's say, five to
ten years, and now that customer,

or I keep saying customer, but
now that user is going, Hey, when

is this thing getting better?

You know, I got into this game
five, eight, 10 years ago.

And, um, you know, I was able to
use these plugins, but now I really

don't see anything changing too
dramatically over this, over the course

of this five to eight to 10 years.

Like, why isn't it getting better?

And we have now a much more,
um, we have more of those folks

than the previous 10 years.

Which were just hardcore geeks and
developers who were touching WordPress

and just having those conversations off
to the side, either literally building

WordPress or didn't give a shit about,
you know, workflows and easy to use

software because they were like, man,
I'm cracking open my code editor and

I'm building these themes and plugins.

That's what I do.

I don't care about page builders.

I mean, I've said this to you
before on the show before back then.

If you use a page builder, you
are getting that same sort of like

animosity that maybe Bricks users
give to Elementor people today.

Right?

Like when a Bricks user goes, Oh
my God, you're using Elementor.

Foolish.

Right?

Like, I can't believe you still use that.

I'm on this Bricks thing,
which is way better.

Back then, If, The biggest crowd,
the biggest audience here were

developers, still are largely, but
back then it was just pure developers.

And if you brought a page builder
into the game, you're just, they

were looking at you going, get
out of here with that thing.

Now, again, a decade later,
people are like, okay, I guess

these things are here to stay.

I mean, we have Gutenberg and now
we have Elementor as a massive

company in the WordPress space.

People are like, okay, I guess, yeah,
I guess these things are staying.

So now there's a group of people,
a lot larger and a lot more vocal.

You know, than the geeky developer
who just, I don't care about

anything else, I'm just gonna write
this code and optimize it myself.

And we have, we're in this,
hitting this crossroads now, um,

that WordPress has never seen.

The power user who knows how to use
this stuff and knows how to sell

it is like, give me better, give me
faster, and give it to me now because

we're dying out here compared to the
competitors, Webflow, Wix, whatever.

Um Which I don't fully buy,
but that's the sentiment.

Um, and I don't think WordPress
has ever seen this before.

And that's why it's very
important, I think, for WordPress.

And this is why you see a concerted effort
from Automatic, whether you agree with

it or not, um, to really, you know, dig
their heels into, into the community.

Again, you could say, ten years too late.

Um, but also, they gotta do it.

And I'm glad that they're doing it.

So, we just sort of, I just sort of
keep them at a, at an arm's length

is kind of a harsh statement, but I
just, okay, let's, what do you want?

How do you want to do this thing?

I've been saying it for years, you
know, KG's been saying it for a couple

years, and it's like, give it to us,
and let's, let's, let's work through

this and see if we can get there.

So are you saying that, They've
never really tried to do it like

this then to your, Oh God, no,

Matt: this is no, like if you were to
look at, I mean, look at, so we're going

to talk about the marketing stuff and
again, I'll implore people to go and watch

the WP product talk, um, presentation
because marketing came up a lot.

Like how are we going to
make WordPress better?

Uh, we need, you know, better marketing.

And does that marketing come
from, from automatic or does it

come from a consortium of, of
brands, you know, in the space?

I have a real life story about, you know,
ad consortiums and brand consortiums

that are, that is not too good.

Um, I'll save it for the end here, but,
um, certainly WordPress, or, you have

to be careful, certainly Automatic has
not reached out to work with content

creators like this before, right?

Even though I feel like Anne's
just on her own side quest and it's

not an official thing, um, it's as
official as it gets, and that's good.

We saw the failures of the official
WordPress make marketing team, right?

Couldn't do anything.

Um, in Ray's post today on the
tavern, excuse me on the repository.

Uh, she said she, you know, she
quoted some of Yost's pain points

from when he was the marketing lead
for like nine months or 11 months,

whatever it was three months.

I don't know what it was, but he
was like, I can't do anything.

Like here's, here's a guy who not only
runs the most popular at the time,

the most popular SEO plugin ever.

Knows SEO and marketing like the
back of his hand is a prominent

figurehead in the WordPress community.

He stepped in and he was
like, Nope, can't do it.

Right?

Because he looked at it and goes, any
marketing person who, who knows marketing

and needs, access to resources cannot
do this job in a volunteer environment.

So the marketing team has failed and
frozen, not from the end users, not from

their perspectives, but just from the
fact that they don't have the access,

the data or the, um, the, the power
to really shape a marketing message

for open source WordPress, right?

My biggest arguments against the
Jamie Marsland, um, gig that happened.

So very difficult.

You have media core.

Um, also head of, headed
by an automatic lead.

I think Reyes is doing a phenomenal
job, uh, but it's still an automatic

lead doing a media core, trying to
build out a media core experiment.

I think it's going fairly good in
the, in the first couple of months.

It is exactly what I had expected it to be
a more professional, organized way to say,

here's the things coming out of WordPress.

Do you all want to cover this content?

Cool.

Thumbs up.

I think it's good, but we all have
to remember this is an automatic is

the one leading the charge of, of
what's happening out of that group.

And us as media guys and gals
choose to cover it or not, right?

It's up to us.

And then you have the tavern,
which is owned by Audrey

Capital, uh, Matt's company.

So you have a lot of these places that are
going to help market and push WordPress.

Yes, but also, Controlled by
automatic at the same time.

And you take that with your grain of
salt, however, however big that is.

But that's a long way of getting to no
automatic has never really pushed into

the creator space for messaging like
this always have supported community,

but more so on like the, Hey, help us
build WordPress thing, not the help us

get this message out about WordPress.

Do you think there's a reason for that?

Do you think like they were just.

for lack of a better way to explain
it, just like busy before and just

didn't think that it was necessary.

And now they see, now they see all
the, like the, you know, the sharks in

the water, so to speak again, it's a
little bit hyperbolic, but like they

see like other, they see like how big
of a deal influencer marketing, so to

speak, is in creator based marketing.

And now we're like, Hmm, you know, we
should probably consider you actually,

do you think that that's, The problem
that I have with these conversations is

they're all, they're all really good.

But like we talked about off camera,
like you don't want to create like

just an echo chamber of just like
random speculation and random ideas.

So like, I just feel like I need to do
a better job of this, but like, I feel

like there's, we have the access to the
people that I assume are taking action.

Like, you know, there's definitely rooms
that people are making decisions in.

And like those ideas are, you
know, potentially flowing down,

but obviously we have, we have the
other situations like we, like we

talked to Ann and that's fantastic.

The, uh, YouTuber program is fantastic.

Apparently that's not
like a top down thing.

That's more of just like, again, like
you said, kind of a side quest and cool.

That's awesome that that freedom
exists, but I feel like in some of the

bigger things, the bigger messaging
pieces, the bigger, the bigger plays.

Automatic is a, is a for
profit corporation, right?

And they, and WordPress is
a big part of what they do.

com and all that.

So like, I feel like these things that
we're talking about, they have answers.

So like somebody, somebody has
answers to this, you know what I mean?

So I feel like that's, that's part
of the thing that, um, you know, when

I ask these types of questions, it's
like, how did these things come to be?

And we're just kind of like putting
the, you know, trying to put the dots,

you know, connect the dots sometimes.

Yeah.

It's a little, it's a little tough.

Um, I don't know.

I don't exactly know where
I was going with that.

Yeah, no, I

Matt: get what you're saying.

Like, why do you think this is happening?

Well, again, I'll just
go back to what I said.

I think it's because they've realized
that There is a, we are hitting a plateau.

So again, if you, the WP product
talk presentation, old talk and,

and Yost, um, talk about their
numbers and on either the, the slight

decline, um, in installs, the numbers
can be measured in different ways.

So obviously check out that episode
if you want to see how it, how it

all came, you know, it came together.

There's nothing that is, we're not
watching WordPress crashing, right?

So there's that.

So let's, let's hold on a second.

We're not, we're not crashing here.

But I think they've realized that,
yeah, we're gonna hit a plateau.

I mean, how, at some point, like,
you're not gonna keep having

that velocity of growth, right?

Because, um, you know, technology's
gonna get better faster and competitors

are gonna come into the market like
they have and it's gonna just slow down

the way that WordPress, um, uh, um,
continues to grab that market share.

So I think that the reason is, is
yeah, they've identified that we're

going to be hitting a plateau season.

For whatever, however long
that is, a couple of years.

Um, and now it's time to look outward
from just like the, the folks who build

and write lines of code for WordPress,
to the folks who are marketing and,

and possibly implementing, um, you
know, WordPress for, for their clients.

And I totally agree with you, um,
You know, it would be great to

get people with direct answers
on the line and, and ask them.

I do think, uh, that 90 percent of
this, all roads lead back to Matt.

And, um, to have Matt on every
call would be near impossible.

Um, so I can only operate off of
these, like, key presentations.

Especially from Josepha, right?

Executive Director of WordPress.

So I, I have to look at.

These presentations as this is
what you're telling us, right?

This is your update.

Um, One of the benefits to the
media core is that Josefa will

be in the media, the next media
core meeting for us media folks.

Um, which is fantastic because now
this could help bridge that gap of,

look, we need to talk to people,
we need to ask these questions.

Um, so, um, done in a professional manner.

You know, with that caveat.

Because a lot of people in, you
know, especially in the Twitter

sphere is just like, well, ask
them why we don't have this block.

You know, or why can't I drag
this over there and import that?

It's like, well, that's
not, this is not for that.

This is for the, you know, the
health of overall WordPress and

where this whole thing is going.

You know, you can take your
feature concerns at another time.

So yeah, maybe these efforts
will help us get there.

I wanted to, to play this
clip before we started talking

about the marketing side of it.

Um, because I think it sets the tone
of, of what we're all feeling right now.

That's the way that I
perceive this, this talk.

I've watched it a couple of times.

Um, yeah, August 31st, 2023.

So literally one year old tomorrow
is when she gave this presentation.

So I think we're right on track.

And if you continue listening to
this, To this, she starts talking

about the, like, the learn efforts.

And we just saw, what, a couple
weeks ago, the, the redesign of, of

the learn site and the efforts that
they're putting into the learn site.

So, this is exactly the proof in, in my
pudding is to hear her talk about this

stuff and literally see it, you know,
six months, or actually eight months in

the future, finally coming, what am I
saying, eight months, a year, a year into

the future, finally the, the learn site.

has improved, which is one of
the things that she talked about.

Like we have to get learning better
and easier and more accessible.

So I look to these moments, the
Matt Mullenweg state of the words,

and whenever she does her, um, I
don't know what they're called, but

her capstone events at WordCamp US.

Um, I look at those as, you
know, that's, that's the signal.

That's the direction.

Um, I'd love to have them on
every call, but I, I just have to

use what I have in front of me.

Certainly.

Um, what is, so to kind of.

Summarize this, obviously,
from your perspective.

And I know, I'm sure we've talked about
this, but I don't know if it's been, I've

been, I've directly asked it like this.

What is your, in August, late August
of 2024, based on everything that, you

know, we've seen here, what is your
current perspective on, like, the, I

don't wanna, there's probably multiple
ways to say it, but like, the health

of WordPress, the, uh, Wordpress.

org, like the open source software, the
health of it, the current position of it,

and more so than the current position,
like, where do you see it, where do

you see it, like, in the past three
years versus the next three years, or

something like that, you know what I mean?

Like, what's your, what's
your gauge on this now?

Because I feel like even since
we've started talking, it's,

it's possibly changed slightly.

Not heavily, but I feel like more,
more conversations have been had.

More, more things have been said.

Yeah, yeah.

So, where are you at right now?

Matt: I'm much more optimistic
on the software side of things.

And I guess, and the
community side of things.

Not, yeah, not I guess.

It is.

I'm much more, I'm much more
optimistic on both the software and the

community than I was three years ago.

Yeah.

Three years ago, I was like, Oh
boy, like there was, you know,

but, but also like the economics,
uh, the economy, sorry, was also.

Weird for agencies like a lot
of agencies three years ago.

We're like, what are we like?

What's happening?

We really got to tighten
this belt now during kovat.

Everybody was like I'm printing money.

Yeah, and this is amazing

example Yeah, right,

Matt: you know But coming out of that
people like where the hell did that all go

and and no I think it was no that brought
this up in the In the presentation, but

you know, when you look at the swings
in the economy, a lot of people, this

is why I always say, like, this is
why WordPress is strongest advantage.

I know it's easy to throw out that
strong advantage of, oh, it's just open

source, but in a top down approach,
there are massive organizations that,

uh, Go, uh, yeah, we're done paying
Adobe for their CMS 10 million a

year in licensing, and we're going to
shift over to an open source model.

And that's, that's an
investment for a long term.

So when you can, when that glacier
moves over of some massive organization

that says, okay, now we're gonna, we're
gonna skip this Microsoft SharePoint

or Adobe CMS, I forget what theirs is
called, um, and, and, and, and, and,

um, Oracles stuff, like whatever big
corporate entity that they're paying

millions and millions of dollars for,
never mind the salaries and support

licenses that they have to pay for.

And they invest in a WordPress,
or any open source, but

they invest in a WordPress.

That's not just, they're not
going to change out of that

decision a year from now.

They go, okay, well WordPress didn't work.

No, no, like those organizations
don't move that way.

So if you can get somebody in like that.

That, that's an investment in, in
WordPress open source, open source

WordPress for five to ten years because
that's just how those corporations

move and they're investing so much
time and money into these things.

So economies, the economy can
play a big role in adoption.

Um, it's easy to say WordPress is free,
um, and while it's not free at that

scale, it is magnitudes less expensive
than a Microsoft SharePoint and an Adobe.

So.

All of that is to say is, I
think we're in a better place.

Uh, three years, I feel it.

Um, with all the noise that I hear,
I don't see anyone actually leaving.

When Gutenberg launched,
I saw people leaving.

Right?

Like a year into it,
people are like, I'm out.

Like, that's when I saw other people
looking at other no code solutions,

Statimic, people, you know, developers
that were building plugins for

WordPress, going, you know what?

I don't even want to sell
plugins anymore for this space.

I want to go just go
after this other stuff.

And I saw people leaving.

I don't see people leaving here.

So, yes.

I, I agree.

I don't see too many
people leaving either.

I mean, I'm not, I don't have my
finger on the pulse of the data,

which as a side note, it would be
amazing if we get even better data.

I know wordpress.

org or automatic or somebody
has like decent data.

We've, we've potentially looked at before.

I've seen it on other
stuff and things like that.

Maybe it was the YouTuber call or
whatever, but, um, That would be amazing

if we could like do more surveys or
something to get like a broader mass.

I know we're just dealing with a
ton of, uh, information though.

So that's tough, but, um,
What was I going to say?

The thing that you're saying, though,
is I know we're not pulling up the

charts like we did in our I'm building

Matt: one right now so
we can pull it up because

I

Matt: knew you were going to go there.

But like, that's what I'm, what I'm
kind of thinking is, you know, if

you look at the last three years, the
next three years, obviously you can't

predict the future, but like, even the
trends over the last, if you extrapolate

back like five or ten years, if you go
back, those There's charts we looked

at, like comparatively, just like
Google Trends to the other platforms.

It makes sense that WordPress is kind
of plateauing because there's more

options now and things like that.

But to, to, there's a, I feel like there's
a subtle conversation nuance to be had

where, yeah, I don't see a lot of people
leaving WordPress, but I don't actually

even hear that argument that much.

I hear people not coming to WordPress.

Because the other stuff's either
easier, easier to get into, or

is just like marketed better.

Like, I feel like, I don't, I
personally, from what I've seen, I

don't think there's a exodus problem.

I think there's a, what's the word,
um, awareness or, there's a better

word for it, um, escaping me right now.

But like a, not even a searchability,
just like a, you know, um, I don't

know, it'll come to me, but like
finding it, like almost finding

WordPress and realizing that it is
ultimately one of the best solutions.

Um, you know, I did like though, I'll say
this and I'll let you go over the chart.

Um, Mark's live stream, I don't know when
this is going out, but like, um, pronounce

his last name for me that you just did.

Matt: Oh, Benzikin.

Yeah.

Mark Benzikin's, uh, presentation, there
was a specific line and the whole thing

was great, but the specific line in
there where it was like, Don't like like

realize that there are competitors and
they might be better for certain things

like I do actually like that approach
I mean, I personally probably would use

WordPress for 99 percent of the things
but if something comes out that WordPress

isn't Specific for or like you really
need like an easy super duper easy like

e commerce thing for certainly there's
WooCommerce There's SureCart, but like

in some cases maybe Shopify is the
thing we got to be honest with ourselves

as far as like Actual requirements
because every project is different.

So my point though in saying,
but I think a lot of times

WordPress could be the answer.

And I think a lot of times people
aren't getting to that step.

So I think that's really where
potentially hopefully automatic is

understanding that piece because I
don't, I don't see an exodus problem.

I see like a, you know, an entrance
problem, you know, like getting into it.

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah.

And hold that thought for the, for like
the marketing stuff, but when we, we

look at the, so for those watching, we
have the Google trends and, and I think

Noel brought this up too, that I think
his data or at least one of those slides

was based off of this and it's just the
keyword of WordPress, which, I mean, it's

telling, but it's not like that means
that WordPress is interesting, uh, or,

or that somebody was actually searching
for, give me a WordPress website.

Right.

Um, and same goes for all this other
stuff, like WordPress, Webflow, Wix, we're

just, this is just a search term trend.

Um, you know, from a, from a 50, 000
foot view, you could say that it's, it's

popularity, but it doesn't necessarily
mean that this leads to a WordPress

install, a Webflow install, a Wix install.

The problem real quick the problem
with this this experiment that you

know I ran the other day I told you
about and then we did think and we're

doing here The problem is that when
you think of a web flow website?

There is I'm gonna say there's
basically nothing else that you're

gonna search in order to find web
flow or Wix with WordPress It may be

interesting to add like an element
or Or like a Divi to the comparison.

And then you'd have to somehow do like a
complicated math equation to try to figure

out like, Oh, we got to take like at
least a percentage of this into account.

So I'm not saying again, like this
isn't like fully telling either, but it

would be interesting to just see, like,
to kind of start some of that data.

And again, Elementor is pretty low, but
it's, it's incredible that Elementor

alone, right, is the same as Webflow.

Yeah.

According to these.

Matt: Yeah.

So,

Matt: uh, and Wix just destroys it.

Right.

So if you go, then if you go square space.

Well, actually, you know what you can do?

You can do visual composer.

That's a big one.

Matt: Yeah, but it's not even on there.

I think the problem with visual
composer is it's just in a theme

and most people don't even know.

Uh, let's go square space.

Like, I'd be interested in
like Divi and Beaver Builder,

but I still think Elementor is
probably going to be the biggest.

Yeah.

In this, this, uh, Oh, wow.

Okay.

Okay.

And if we take,

Matt: if we take these out, so if you're
just, if you're just listening, you're

not seeing us, uh, modify these charts.

Uh, let me just remove Wix and Squarespace
so we can just see this battle.

Wow.

So this is, this right here is a really
interesting chart actually, because

this, you know, we're seeing here
on the screen for you listeners, if

we're just podcasting here is Webflow
Search term comparisons in Google,

Google trending and pretty much all
similar, especially more recently.

But that's like, those are two
WordPress page voters versus like

a whole platform and Webflow.

So again, I said this the
other day I was live streaming.

I was like Webflow is like the
second thing out of WordPress

people's mouth, which is fine.

Like that's whatever.

But I just find it so interesting cause
like it's the, it's the smallest one.

Like they must just be hammering.

along the lines of the same people that
would like be like WordPress tinkerers

and like kind of agency type owners.

I guess, I guess like Webflow is
just not really for DIY or at all.

Like they probably haven't
like gone that route too much.

Matt: Yeah, definitely not.

Definitely not.

Um, Yeah.

So, I mean, I, I think,

You know, when you look at, uh, so
this is just a five year chart, right?

When, I think when we had pre recorded
this and, uh, or previously recorded

this, we were looking at like a ten
year chart or something like that,

and WordPress was just massive, right?

And dominant.

And it was literally following, You
know, my argument to the first 10 years

of WordPress was, man, it was the only
thing that was out there that people

were able to build websites with.

Uh, you know, of course, launched blogs,
which were very popular back then.

It was the social media
before social media.

And people were just like,
yeah, give me this thing.

I need it.

This is technology.

This is the internet.

I'm connecting with people.

Give it to me.

And then when you cross that 10 year
path, where you started to see the

rise of Wix, Squarespace, Webflow,
all these other things, Shopify

more so than Webflow, of course.

That was an indication of, yeah, 10
years in consumer internet has matured

and a lot more competition prices went
down for technology, servers, storage,

bandwidth, you know, back then everything
else was way more expensive to operate.

And then just an increase in competition
and softwares that came out, um, and

WordPress had to battle that none
of these other, like all these other

platforms Had the luxury of like, looking
at, um, you know, the, the past decade

of WordPress and, and building on it.

I make this case all the time.

It's like, you know, if you're a new
form builder, I work for gravity forms,

and you're a new form builder, you come
into the space and you get to build your

form, build, build a, build a plugin
based off of like, The last 14 years at

Gravity Forms has been in business, right?

And you don't have to, you don't have
to worry about all of the backwards

compatibility and all this stuff.

WordPress, same thing.

These platforms come out, they
can look at WordPress and be

like, Well, we ain't doing that.

And be a hosted solution because we're
not giving it to every individual to

download and do whatever they want with.

Which is something that I think is, you
know, vastly overlooked in this, this,

this desire for WordPress to be better.

Is that you can still take this thing
off the shelf, put it onto your computer,

and break it apart, and look at it, and
do things, and it doesn't even have to

be, um, you know, a, a, a, building a
website, you could just take it apart,

and learn and understand code from it,
and move on with your life, like these

are things that, you know, You know,
you see people speed running video games

with like, uh, you know, an old like
Atari stick and you're like, wait, that's

not even supposed to be using that.

Well, guess what?

I'm a human.

I can do these crazy, wild things to
prove, you know, to prove my point.

Um, WordPress has this flexibility and
this opportunity that are unmatched

across the board, you know, in my opinion.

Well, I don't know if anybody in,
uh, I don't know if anybody that

actually knows anything about
WordPress would argue with that,

na: that

last point there.

I mean, obviously it has an
incredible flexibility, robustness,

versatility, whatever you want to call
it, because that's why we're here.

I think a lot, I think the vast majority
of people, that's why they're here, right?

They're either, if you look at the, the
big avatars, they're either like, you

know, a large enterprise, which I don't
have direct experience with, but I've

learned from guys like you, Brian Cords
and stuff, like, The large enterprise

people that need like an open source
solution, highly customized, highly

curated, makes perfect sense there.

They're either DIY wires that literally
just heard that potentially older DIY

wires to seemingly got, I got to put
that asterisk in there because it was

probably something that they found
probably, you know, in that first 10

year mark, potentially they heard about
it, they've always tinkered with it.

It's very interesting.

Uh, it's a little bit of a
generalization there, but.

But, but they've also found that
it was, it was free open source.

I don't know how they necessarily
got sold on that, but again, it's

probably like a very cheap option too.

Um, and it's versatile,
which is incredible.

Or you have the people that have kind
of outgrown maybe other tools, you know,

maybe they went to Webflow or they went to
Wix or Squarespace and they're like, okay,

well now what I can't do X, Y, and Z.

How do I get, how do I,
How do I add a store?

How do I do this or whatever?

And then, then maybe they find a YouTube
video or something and it's like, okay,

WordPress, but I mean, I don't know how
deeply you want to go into this, but like,

I really just think the question becomes
like, there's a couple of questions that

just pop up from what you're saying there
though, is the first one is that obviously

WordPress was first there and they
had 10 golden years of being the only.

So, you know, roughly 10
golden years being the only

one there, which is awesome.

Well, it's very, it's like,
this is extremely natural.

I'm not a huge history buff.

I'm sure we could find examples of
times where like somebody innovates

and they're there for a period of time.

And then six other people come in, they
learn from all the mistakes, they build a

better product in a fraction of the time.

better, you know, subjectively in a
fraction of the time, then ultimately

where that ends up going, and I'm not
saying this is WordPress, I'm just

saying this is a, this is a historic,
this is has to be a historical trend

where like over the next 10 years,
15, 20 years, the first one can't dig

itself out from, from under that hole.

And then it ends up going either by
the wayside or just like way more

of a plateau or way less of a, of a,
of a, uh, Of a player in the space.

I guarantee we can see that somewhere.

Industry.

Somebody, oh God.

Yeah, I mean,

Matt: Apple and Microsoft.

Perfect examples.

You know,

yeah, I mean, New England

Matt: Patriots.

This guy, it's big Tom
Brady guy, um, you can

Matt: only win for so long, man.

And then like people age out of
success and that's, you know, exactly.

So I mean, the thing, the thought
would be, what do you do there?

I mean, cause again, I feel like
this is kind of like in that spot.

So it's like.

Are you going to, you know,
there's a phrase like adapt or die.

I don't know if that perfectly
applies here, but that's like one

thing that kind of comes to mind.

There's another thing where it's just
like, maybe now the second half of

WordPress potentially or whatever is
more of just like a more mature phase

where it's like, Hey, you know what?

Our original goal was just to
be like a publishing platform.

We still have that in our philosophy
20 years later, although over that

time, the philosophy by the community
and the third party ecosystem

has been extended incredibly.

And we don't really align exactly
with that, but we're not going to

like say, no, you can't do that.

So now, it's like, we're just
going to go back to our roots.

I'm saying this possible option.

Like, we're just going to go back to
our roots because we're, we're not like

directly, we are kind of competing with
people, but we're not kind of competing

with these other ones and like, we
want more people on the platform, but

we're also like, not exactly, we're
not exactly offering the same thing

as like a Squarespace and a Wix.

So we're just going to stick to
what we know and what we pioneered

as like the publishing piece.

And we're going to do that.

And we're going to let the
third party people just take

care of whatever they want.

And if you need something other
than blog and publishing features,

you can Ask someone else.

That is kind of the vibe that I'm hearing
and I'm trying to piece all this together.

And, uh, it's actually not a terrible
plan, assuming everyone still cares

enough and assuming the world doesn't
continue to spiral into this like

complete Lack of, you know, data
protection, open source, like, like I

genuinely believe that like as a younger
person, like I genuinely believe with

way less people care about open source.

I do, but I'm saying like,
you have all these, you know,

young whippersnappers, right?

That are just out here on their phones,
like in their data stolen all the

time or whatever, you know, wherever.

And then they have all this other concern.

And like, if you asked a kid right
now, how did they set up a website?

I think honestly, they'd probably be like
more like, Oh, just go follow my Instagram

rather than like follow my blog and stuff.

And I mean, this might be
cyclical, this might come back,

you know, kind of the other way.

I hope it does.

I'm trying to kind of do that with some
of the stuff I do, and I know you are.

But I know there's a lot there,
but that's kind of, that's kind

of my new understanding of what we
got going on here, to an extent.

I don't know if any of that resonates.

Matt: I think what good leaders
will recognize is how to deal

with either failure or downturn.

Or you're just not the number one pick.

And everyone should be
comfortable with losing.

Um, I am very comfortable with losing.

In fact, I feel like I'm losing
every single day and it's

what keeps me coming back.

Um, when you're at the top and,
and like that first 10 year ride

of, of WordPress, it's phenomenal.

Like you can't even imagine.

How, what that's like, but we've,
you know, when you say like it has

this ever happened in history before
you look at any successful tech

company that just like, wow, I can't
believe how fast they're rising.

Look at this is amazing.

And then they crash and burn because
there's this artificialness to it.

Um, and in this is a rough statement,
but it's like in, in the, the real

leaders are made in the wartime.

Right?

The real downturn stuff on how you are
going to, you know, keep the mission

going, keep people, uh, you know, backing
the cause, and generally, like, continue

to build your thing to keep it going.

Um, we're in that time.

Largely with, with
WordPress and automatic.

This is why I feel like we're
going to have like a real

automatic reckoning pretty soon.

Where, where something has to, like the
band aid is going to get ripped off.

And it's going to be
like, we're automatic.

We're here to make money
with WordPress, WordPress.

The best place to get it is wordpress.

com and or jetpack.

And then by the way, we
have this open source thing.

It's not said like that today.

Today.

It's just like Matt community automatic.

Like we're all in the same room together.

I think it's going to
be much more of like.

60 percent of WordPress is automatic.

40 percent is the community in terms
of the package and the presentation

when it comes from wordpress.

com and automatic, um, because they
need to get serious in survival

again, just my opinion, but I
don't think people should just get

comfortable with winning all the time.

Do you have to win all the time?

Do you have to have the commanding
lead of all content management systems?

Um, my opinion is, is no.

And when you're.

When you're not finding that success
is when you're learning those

lessons and you constantly shift.

When I started the WP Minute,
everybody was joining the

membership, I was like, boom.

I solved WordPress news,
community journalism, I got it.

People were, you know, sending me
clips, they were writing, you know,

blog posts for me, and it died out.

And I am constantly re evolving,
um, re evolving, re evaluating, and,

uh, evolving the, the packaging in
the presentation of the WP Minute.

Uh, a standout, um, WordPress
product that is doing just

that is Beaver Builder, right?

Beaver Builder, still a successful
company, still going strong,

still profitable by all means.

Accounts like, I, you know, I don't
see any, I don't see any downturn,

everyone, their prices are going up,
so they, they're, they're understanding

that they have to stay sustainable, and
they're, and they're not, um, chasing the

Elementor and the Divis and the Bricks,
they, they have a strong user base, how?

Well, they got there early, number
one, but they put out a great product

and they listened to their customers.

What the hell is wrong with that?

You know, at one time I jumped into
the cesspool of Facebook groups, which

is the worst thing for, for me to do.

And somebody was like, what's
up with Beaver Builder?

They haven't done anything
and yada, yada, yada.

And I was like, Oh, suddenly a business
that's been in years, been in business

for over a decade, serving their
customers happy, healthily and without

chasing the buzzwords is a bad thing.

And people just like laugh emojis on it.

It's just like, why do
I even show up here?

Because this crowd just wants free
fast and 29 lifetime plans, right?

There's nothing wrong with building a
sustainable, profitable company that

isn't super sexy and isn't just dominant.

Um, in my opinion, both from like
a product perspective and from,

you know, a personal perspective,
like I freaking like, I love to

lose because I learned that lesson.

I love to win, of course, but I also,
I don't mind living in that moment.

And when I'm winning, I already know.

There's going to be a downturn.

Now, this is all obviously because I grew
up a lot in sales and, uh, you know, the

deal's never done until the client signs
and everyone says yes until, you know,

the terms come, uh, in front of them.

But, um, yeah, so it's like, I
don't think we always have to win.

And I, you know, Matt said something too.

And, and I think you just reiterated it.

Like, what, what would it look like if
we just spent a year frozen fixing stuff?

You're going to have the people who
are like, Oh, you're going to lose

ground to all these other people.

Yeah, well.

Sometimes you need to stop
and do a spring cleaning.

I don't know how many people
would actually say that.

I, I think a lot of

Matt: people would freak out
about like no features for a year.

Look how, look how they freak
out about no features now.

What

are the features?

I don't think, I, I, maybe we're, maybe
we're, I know we're very connected but I

think we're talking to slightly different
crowds because I, I get way less.

I know a lot of

Matt: people in the community.

I know the most amount of
people in the community.

Yes you do.

Uh, I, I, I, Uh, what I hear more
of is, is more of the fixing side.

Like there's, they've created problems.

Obviously, and again, We're, we're
leaving out a large portion of this that

goes kind of without said of like the
amount of technical debt that you rack up

when you do all this type of thing, so.

We talked about that kind of before,
but that I hear more from that angle

rather than like, Oh, why don't
they have this, this, and this?

Like, yeah, for sure.

Like, you know, mobile
responsiveness or whatever.

Like, but I feel like at least people
I talked to, it's more of like, I

don't like what has been done so far.

So if we could fix that, I feel
like they would be happy about that.

Surely.

Nope.

Surely everybody wants everything
to be perfect and done as fast

as possible and new stuff.

I get that.

But that's not realistic.

One other point I want
to make is that you said.

First thing, are you saying that
we're in the, the stage of WordPress

where hard times create strong men?

Yeah.

Or are you saying that we
haven't gotten there yet?

Matt: No, I think we're,
I think we've been in it.

I think we've loosely been in it.

I don't think you're going to see,
like, again, I don't think you'll

ever see WordPress crash and burn.

I think it, if, if, if there were ever
like a five year downturn, it would

be slow, it wouldn't be off a cliff.

Yeah, I don't, I don't see that
as being possible either, and I'm

not sure many people are actually
saying that or suggesting that.

I think it's more of just like, they
see They see that the growth rate

is not a growth rate really anymore.

They just see that it's a plateau
or they see that it's maybe a

slight decline or like certain
stats are indicating that again.

Sure.

We're not the only people
talking about that.

Matt: And in five years you could
have, the upturn could be 10x because

all of these people who left WordPress
to go to these other platforms are

now, will come back to WordPress.

Because here's the equation, in my
opinion, and, you know, I'd love to

hear from folks listening to this,
Webflow, let's say Squarespace,

Wix, Webflow, um, Shopify.

What props this up?

What, what props those
product companies up?

What holds them up?

Customers, people giving
them money, right?

That is what keeps them going.

So there's always that.

struggle of marketing dollars, product
dollars, you know, taking from one

platform and getting them on boarding.

Then maybe they go one square space
guy goes to Wix, goes to Shopify.

The only thing that props those companies
up is dollars and money and users

and customers in the WordPress world.

It's open source.

So WordPress is propped up just like
Joseph has said in that clip is, By the

people, we need people to be using it,
and people to be interested in it, because

if they're not, there's no WordPress.

People keep WordPress propped up.

Dollars keep Squarespace, Wix,
Shopify, and Webflow propped up.

Because as soon as the dollars dry out,
those companies will fall off a cliff.

Dollars can dry out in WordPress.

And you won't see an off the cliff.

You might see a gradual decline,
but it won't be off the cliff.

Those other will go out of business.

There's no going out of business
in open source WordPress.

I mean, I'm not going to act like
I know exactly how everything works

here, but like just trying to, I don't
disagree with what you're saying.

I definitely agree with the fact that
like the other side is like dollars

a hundred percent agree, but I think.

Is the term reductive?

Is it too reductive to say
that WordPress is just people?

Because if there was no money, there
would also be no, no people like there

would be like in, in current state
of like the, how the world works.

Like this is a big conversation
around the contributing thing for

contributing thing for either if
you're sponsored or if you're just

doing free contribution or whatever,
like, and we've had this conversation

before, but it gets very nuanced there.

I feel like, are you.

Like what's, I think what I think
you're saying is yes, at the

core of it, if there's no people,
because it's open source, there's no

people, people are propping it up.

I get that.

But is that actually the full story?

Meaning like the contributors
that are contributing, A lot of

them are getting paid by either
automatic or a GoDaddy or whatever.

And if WordPress, again, we're playing
hypotheticals here, but if WordPress

went on a strict downturn and like it
got actually bleak, it's nowhere near

that, nor do I really think it's going
to get there, but like if, but it's only

not going to get there if we recognize
that these things are possible, we

can't like think anything is infallible.

That is, that is literally how you go
extinct regardless of what you are.

But if.

If WordPress did look very bleak, don't
you think like a go daddy, I'm making

names up here, but like, don't you think
like a go daddy or somebody would be

like, eh, we're gonna, like they might
reconsider because what they're doing is

they are literally paying people to go
work to some degree on it, or maybe they

would pull back or something like that.

Matt: But yeah,

but that's, but, but what I'm saying is
that's ultimately goes back to the money.

It, it, it's people for sure,
but it goes back to the money.

Now you may have a situation where
somebody is like, okay, well.

I want to turn WordPress around.

I'm just going to volunteer
more or I'm going to, whatever.

I'm like, you take the
money out of it somehow.

I just, I just don't
know how that's like a,

Matt: I think it's the actual

reality.

Matt: The economics of a project
being propped up by people

versus money is the web flow.

Like again, square space, any, any
of these square space, Shopify,

Shopify is a better example.

Shopify, cause it's the most expensive.

Although web flow is pretty
up there for e commerce.

Um,

Or, no, Webflow is a good example
because Webflow is probably the one that,

Webflow is probably the one that you
do have to worry the most about this.

Because, long term.

100%, long term.

Not right now.

Not right now, but long term.

Um, Shopify will probably win because of
all the investment money that it already

has and the brand equity that it owns.

Um, throughout people's, you know,
Cognitive level of understanding

like if I want e commerce, I'm
generally looking at Shopify.

Um, But Webflow would be one where
suddenly just like we see with freaking

Inflation and streaming services
going up and you know YouTube premium

was once 12 bucks and now it's 22
bucks or whatever That's not for us.

I'm just like how why I'm on the family

plan.

Matt: Yeah I'm just like I don't even
understand how you're charging me more

because the way I see it as a tech person
Bandwidth costs are going down, but

then people are saying well energy costs
are going up So man, so there's like

all of those things Economics impacted
those companies where if bandwidth and

storage and energy and, um, payroll
and taxes and operating in different

global in governments and environments
and tax regulation, all that stuff.

is what impacts these companies
like a web and investors, right?

And investors like, give me a return
on this investment, or we're not giving

you more money for the runway you
need to hire more people to do more

marketing, to do more advertising.

All of those economics are straightforward
impacting, um, these companies,

Webflow, Wix, Squarespace, Shopify.

And in the WordPress side, it's
While, yes, you make the argument of

like, don't a lot of people get paid?

Yes, but this is that tug of war of
open source where WordPress is open

source, so it's not like GoDaddy
has to pay a WordPress license.

As long as they're, they
can, anyone can use it.

They don't have to give back to
WordPress if they don't want to.

But, they choose to because they realize
it makes all of WordPress better,

which does improve their position.

But they don't have to.

There's plenty of, Hosts out there that
do nothing for WordPress and still sell

air quotes WordPress hosting and and
there's a massive You know lead flow

for them is give me that WordPress
site for five bucks a month and they

happily say yes And they don't give
back so Yeah, these other companies are

Tied to that economic success for them.

Whereas WordPress, you know,
it's it's not like that

na: Uh,

yeah, I mean, I, I, I guess
I get what you're saying.

I'm just not fully, I guess I just
don't fully, it hasn't fully clicked

with me yet because I still feel like
GoDaddy is a for profit corporation and

pretty much everything that they do is,
I would have to assume we're picking

on GoDaddy, but it could be anybody.

I'm assuming that a company of that size
cares about money because they wouldn't

be there if they didn't care about money.

So like, if you take that and
then you say, okay, well, why

are they working on WordPress?

Well, it's because it makes the money.

But if it stopped making them money,
which you could, you could theory craft

a world where that didn't happen, because
that's effectively what we're doing, then

they wouldn't probably be working on it.

And they would go to stat statmatic
or whatever, like something else.

So like.

In that world and in that chain
of events, I just still feel

like it comes back to money.

I understand the nuance of this situation.

It's not the same, but in a world
where you have to have money to eat

and to survive, I don't know how
it doesn't come back to the money.

And I'm not saying I even like that.

I'm just saying, like,
I don't, I don't know

Matt: how.

What would really be interesting is
if, just as again, a theory crafting

experiment, is if Wix said, Oh, we
have a licensed version of Wix now.

And any web host can install it.

That would really push the boundaries
of of, um, how WordPress can,

like, how WordPress survives, like,
from an open source perspective.

Because if Wix is so great and so easy
to use, and all of a sudden they're

like, oh yeah, any, like, go daddy,
you can license the Wix builder.

Wow.

What would happen then?

And at what cost?

And then it's the economics game again.

At what cost does, does that happen?

Does a Wix come in and say, Hey, GoDaddy,
it's a bucket website, it's a buck a

website for every website you launch with
the Wix builder, but then in three years

it's uh, five bucks a website, and in, you
know, 10 years, it's 10 bucks a website.

And at what point?

Do you go back to that, to that
same struggle of, of economics where

GoDaddy goes, Oh, that's interesting.

And they buy in just like any other,
like, like we all did with streaming

services, Netflix, 10 bucks a month.

And we're like, okay, yes, give it to me.

Um, and now you're 30 bucks
a month for 4k streaming.

And you're wondering
what the hell happened.

So that would be an amazing thing to see.

There's no other piece of software that
challenges WordPress at that level.

Drupal.

Kinda.

But no other web host is
installing a WordPress rival.

An open source WordPress rival.

None.

There isn't any.

Not easy.

It doesn't exist.

It's definitely not easy.

Yeah.

Matt: I wanna, I wanna talk about
the marketing before we wrap up.

And just get your thoughts.

Uh, I, I, Hope we would've talked a lot
more about marketing through this episode,

but One of the things that came out of it
was, Hey, maybe we should be marketing.

WordPress better, maybe there should
be a consortium, uh, of folks that,

you know, put money in a pool and, and
advertise, um, or sponsor WordPress.

Uh, I've seen stuff like
that failed miserably.

Uh, as somebody who grew up in the car
industry, my family owned car dealerships,

and that was the thing that, how General
Motors dealerships used to advertise.

is you'd have like this percentage pool
and as a smaller dealership in a smaller

market against like Boston dealerships,
like it was, there was an imbalance.

We would put all this money in, but then
all the advertising was spent in a much

more expensive market, uh, in, in Boston.

Of course, this was many, many years ago.

But it was the same kind of thing.

You'd have like 15, 20 dealers in
a room putting in this money and

only two or three of them really
getting, um, the benefit of a, of

a co marketing budget like this.

And we'd be yelling at, or not me,
my father would be yelling at General

Motors going, this isn't working.

How are you going to back, uh, some of
this expenses too, which is what we kind

of do with like automatic and word camps.

Um, so I've seen that, you know, really,
you know, fail miserably from a more

biased standpoint as a content creator.

I got my hands in the air
if you're just listening.

We've been here all along.

We've been here all along.

You know, asking for support
and sponsorship dollars for

marketing your WordPress products.

Um, you know, whether that's through
blog posts, newsletter sponsors, videos,

like maybe the question is, should
the content creators come together?

and form a coalition of
here's all the stuff we offer.

Finally work together instead of
competitively and say, Hey, WordPress

product companies, we've been here
for a while, support us and we can get

this message out instead of, you know,
coming up with your own ad dollars

and figuring out like who's going to
spend what, you know, uh, what are

your thoughts on, on the marketing
stuff from like a coalition standpoint?

WPCCA, WordPress Content
Creators Association.

Sounds pretty good.

Matt: Oh, you're one of those guys.

Sounds pretty good.

Um,

I mean, obviously you have way more
experience with this than I do, but

we've talked a lot and that's, it's
something that I'm trying to definitely

focus on more of, because I mean,
again, I go back to the other thing.

I try to be like straight
up and logical about it.

Like you cannot do the level of stuff.

Like creating content is hard, no matter
what people think about it or whatever.

Like you have to be there.

If you're doing live streams, there's
that it's easier if you're good at

it or if it comes naturally to you.

And that's, and I understand as a, you
know, maybe as WordPress or automatic

or definitely as like a third party.

These, these guys and gals like out here,
they're really good like developers.

They're really good at like
understanding and solving problems.

It is very difficult, different
and difficult to do marketing

as well for your product.

So, you know, if we're talking third
party or even just in core, I get it.

Like it's a def, it's a
completely different skillset

than a lot of other things.

Um, you know, just as, as like
programming would be or whatever.

So, but I think that there, I'm, I'm
hopeful with things like the YouTuber, uh,

group that Ann has put together there that
like, I think it's a sign that there is a

little bit more of understanding, like we
talked about earlier in the episode here

about like what is happening, why this is
important, why content creators and like

the people in this space, even like media
in general, like all of that is important.

Um, you know, putting Jamie at
the head of WordPress, we will see

how that, that goes ultimately.

But I think that at least on the surface,
definitely give it, I'll, I'll give it

in some ways the benefit of the doubt
fully there that like, Jamie is a content

guy, a hundred percent about that.

Like he is, he said it yesterday
on the WP Tonic, like he

thinks about that all the time.

Um, so I do think that that mindset is
a hundred percent necessary if you want

to grow, you know, as a platform, right?

Like WordPress as a platform, like
that definitely needs to happen.

We could talk about the nuances
of everything there, obviously,

as it relates to the open source
and community and everything.

But that aside, if we're just
talking about marketing, I do

think that that's necessary.

Uh, that said though.

I also think there's another angle where
you definitely can't just have like a

central, like this is, this would kind of
go against that whole idea of almost like,

obviously WordPress isn't necessarily
decentralized sort of in the definition of

that term, but like, you can't just have
it all coming from one place, so to speak.

Um, but there is, there's
another angle of it.

I know I'm contradicting here a
little bit where like, okay, we need

to have like a, uh, unrelenting.

Whatever, like solid, transparent
message for everything like that.

I a hundred percent agree with
that, but are you going to get a,

like a cohesive message together?

Like, is that possible?

You know what I mean?

Like, I don't, I don't
know if it is possible.

And that's why I feel that WordPress
as a whole, because of its nature,

and it's not like a corporation, it's
not a product, I don't know if you can

really have one specific angle that
you, that you attack from because.

It literally is different for everyone.

It means something different for
everyone that, that builds it, which

is one of its greatest strengths and
potentially greatest weaknesses from

a traditional marketing perspective.

And, uh, yeah, I don't really
have too many answers here.

I just think that maybe, maybe one
thing could be like a, like a blend

of voices coming from the core of it.

That's like, Oh, you can use
it like this, this, and this.

But at the same time, I go back to it,
and I'm contradicting myself again, that

I don't think that's what WordPress.

org actually, that I don't think
that's the philosophy of WordPress.

org.

And I, and I said this the other day
when I was watching Kevin's stream on

it, and I was thinking about it, and
I was like, at a certain point, if, if

this is what the philosophy of WordPress.

org is, you kind of just need to
either accept it, or try to influence

the change, which we're kind of doing
that sort of maybe, I don't know.

Um, I know there's a lot of stuff there,
but it's, it's not an easy answer.

Like there's no way to
easily answer this stuff.

And if you're going to market
something, you need to have what you're

going to market and the messaging.

But if you can't fully refine that
messaging, how do you market it?

Yeah.

So it's not an easy, it's
not an easy situation.

Have I

Matt: ever shared the, uh, what would you
do with the keys to the kingdom blog post?

Um, no, I've only heard you say
that like 15 times, uh, on a,

on a more serious note, like.

I, I, I believe Miriam is calling
for a sort of, um, I don't know,

not unofficial, an official sort of
chat, uh, around Contributor Day on

the marketing, uh, for the marketing
stuff coming up at WordCamp US.

Here's the only thing that I would
say is, it cannot be, and, and

probably technically cannot be, but,
Emotionally, it cannot be my own opinion.

And I think technically cannot be
part of the make marketing team

because I think the make marketing
team is officially just frozen.

Uh, we'll get more insights to
that from Josefa at the media

core meeting in a couple of weeks.

Uh, but technically, like, I don't
think we can officially corral around

having another make marketing team.

Um, I don't think it will be supported
by, by Josefa and, and company.

Because they're trying the
MediaCore experiment right now.

So I would urge us not to do that.

Or try for that again.

Because what, what we're going
to run into is the same exact

limitations and frustrations with
the marketing team for many years.

No access.

No data.

You don't work directly
with a product team.

Like some of the best marketing
teams work directly with the

product teams of a company.

Uh, how can you not work with a product
team hand in hand on a successful

marketing team knowing what's coming,
knowing how the users want to use

it, working with users, working with
brand messaging, working with data.

That is the, the basis of
a great marketing company.

Um, or a great marketing
team, I should say.

And we're just going to fall victim
to that again if we try to make the

official Make Marketing team again.

Having said that, what, what can and
should be done with this coalition is

to get boots on the ground for exactly
what you were saying and build up

the, build up their own set of data,
which I know is extremely difficult,

but this is why this is extremely
difficult, is boots on the ground for

all those avatars that use WordPress.

So, I don't know.

Theoretically, let's say it's
Elementor, um, it's Gravity Forms,

it's Barn2 Plugins with their e
commerce plugins, whatever, there's

another company in there, an agency.

So you have these four,
like, types of people.

You have people who are page builder
users, you have people who are form users,

you have people who are e commerce users.

In this coalition, the dollars should
be spent either with WordPress media

companies, or boots on the ground
getting those stories from the

actual users so that you can identify
how these people use WordPress.

Because you're absolutely right.

You can't just have one marketing
message for WordPress because it's

fucking a million different things
to a million different people.

So you got to build the marketing stories
for the bloggers, for the e commerce

people, for the page, for the web.

page builder people for the form
builders, like how these different

people implement this software.

That's where the time should be spent
and then bubble that up into your

little tactical advertisements that way.

Because if you're trying to do it
the make way, it's just, I, I, I,

I think it's, it would be destined
to fail again for all the same

reasons we've already seen it fail.

And if it's just like, how do
we promote WordPress at large?

That's also destined to fail because
there's just so many different

ways that people can use WordPress.

And inevitably you're going to
alienate somebody's message.

Whether it's the product company
who's putting money into this

marketing machine for you.

And they go, hey man, I'm a page builder.

You're not even talking to any, you're
not making any page builder ads.

They're gonna freak out about that.

And you're gonna forget the end user.

Who is the page builder user who's
going, you keep telling me I can

sell stuff on this WordPress website.

I don't care.

I just wanna build my website.

You know?

So

yeah, I think just one
more thought on that.

I think that, uh, I am optimistic, like
overall in general, I think there's a

lot of really good things obviously still
going and all the other stuff we talked

about specifically on that point though.

I would say that I'm, I'm, I'm optimistic,
but I'm super skeptical just from

what I've heard, like specifically
recently, just because I don't, I

don't have long term experience.

but like, I don't, I'm not convinced
right now that, you know, the people

that could make that call, so to speak,
actually want that to be the outward,

outward perspective of what WordPress is.

Like I can't fully wrap
my head around that yet.

Like, I, I don't, I
don't, I don't believe it.

Like, I don't believe that, you
know, like page builders need to

shine, like, like maybe e commerce
to an extent with like WooCommerce.

But I just don't know if that's, I
hope differently because that is the

huge strength of WordPress, but I'm
not sure, like, and you can tell me,

has that ever been at the forefront
of like, I'll make up a scenario, Matt

Mullenwig is like speaking or whatever.

And has he ever said, I'm sure he
said, Oh, we got like millions of

plugins and shit like that or whatever.

But as he ever said, like, go use a
page builder to build your website

or like go use something else.

Like, I feel like it's, it's never,
the third party is mentioned.

I could be completely wrong, but is, has
the third party ecosystem, which is the

vast majority of those avatars that you're
talking about in some ways, like, is that

ever brought up to that extent or is it
always just like core Gutenberg, very

extensible, which are all good points, but
they just don't, when you're talking about

like an actual market strategy for those
different avatars, it's not going to hit

everyone exactly just with those points.

Then that makes sense.

Matt: Yeah, no, it does.

Um, and that's why I say it can't be done.

So this is, that's a perfect reason
why it can't be done through the

official make channels, right?

So if anyone's, I guess this is
just my opinion, but if folks are

thinking, oh, we'll make a new, make
marketing technically and emotionally,

I don't think it's going to happen.

It shouldn't, it shouldn't
happen because you're going

to run into these same things.

Um, No, it's never been done before.

Again, because marketing and the
WordPress stuff hasn't really ever

been able to get off the ground.

I mean, they just sat
on the runway for years.

Um, I pulled up the WordPress.

com site.

Because again, I look for these
canaries in the coal mine of,

of how we get these indicators.

I, I know we want to talk
to people all the time.

I, you know, have built a career
on theorycrafting this stuff.

And they've actually
updated, uh, the wordpress.

com site.

Because I often look at the wordpress.

com site to see what their
marketing message is.

Because, you know, there is
no official marketing team.

And if one is to guess what Automatic
is thinking about marketing WordPress,

Well, you look at wordpress.

com and how they're positioning, um,
How they're positioning WordPress.

I used to really poke fun at WordPress.

com homepage because it, I'll
have to go to the archive.

I probably should do that.

So I'm not doing like a Joe Rogan and
just saying shit and it's not real.

Um, but it, it used to just say
something like WordPress your way

and maybe kind of close to this.

Like WordPress without limits.

That still means that the user
landing here knows what WordPress is.

Right?

Like the, like if somebody's
like, I want to build a website,

you say, go to wordpress.

com, and you go, okay,
they go to wordpress.

without limits.

But I want to build a bakery website
Right that doesn't speak that doesn't

speak to let's take a look at Wix.

com create a website without limits

Hilarious I'm gonna have to assume Wix.

Oh, man.

What an amazing thing that we just
discovered live even though we're just

amazing Um, so WordPress without limits.

Uh, create a website without limits.

This is 100%.

Yeah, I mean, squarespace.

com I will cry, I will cry.

Designed to sell.

That's so weird.

Right, which is going, that's, that's,
that's Squarespace saying They're

going after, they're going after Shopify.

Matt: Yeah, they're going after Shopify.

They're going after the customer
that's going to have the most value.

They're not saying, I don't
care about these people who

want to build a stupid website.

I want a, I want a customer who's
going to sell stuff because that's

going to be my best, my best customer.

Um, and then Shopify.

Oops.

That's amazing.

Matt: Making commerce better for everyone.

Wow.

Matt: You know, and this is
the thing, like, so right here.

And, you know, any, any marketer
worth their salt knows this.

Shopify.

Humans, humans doing things right here.

When you look at Squarespace and Wix
ads, it's humans doing something.

It's never about, Hey, look at this cool
tool of dragging and dropping stuff.

It's humans doing stuff with our
software that with the end result, right?

I'm building my business.

Here's stories about my business.

This is that human factor that I'm
urging this future coalition to go after.

are you

saying though that the
coalition is outside?

It's a, it's a completely external
thing because it has, I think that

it has, I think it's, it does solve
certain problems, but obviously

if we're talking money, if we go back
to the money thing, like, is that

something that like automatic would be
interested in like sponsoring extern?

I don't know how that structure actually
ever works or is that something that

like, like Again, we've, we've had
recent live streams, like where does

the, is there a budget for that?

Or is that going to end up
being like, uh, that the, it

makes money for itself somehow?

Matt: Number one, this is just
like a, an idea that Miriam came up

with, uh, or Miriam and the group
came up with on that phone call.

Who knows if this is actually
going to come to fruition.

And if it is, it's going to take, you
know, months, if not, uh, almost a year.

This is why I think the creators should,
we should come up with something.

More concrete to offer, um, because
it does get like really murky, uh,

this way where, uh, if you have, you
know, Elementor putting in 5, 000 bucks

and somebody coming in and putting
in 500 bucks, like whose message,

you know, dominates that where I
think if like three or four creators

came together and said, Hey, look,
we get this great idea for a series.

And everybody puts in X, Y, Z amount of
dollars, and it's all just presented by

Elementor, Barn2Plugins, Gravity Forms.

It's just way cleaner, I think,
of a deal to do it that way than a

consortium trying to like, figure
out where to spend ad revenue.

Um, but anyway, I, the point is, is like,
just a little germ of an idea right now,

and I think if it is to expand, it should
live outside of, the Make WordPress

marketing team, because technically I
don't think it's available, and two,

uh, I don't, uh, I think it'll just run
up into the same limitations if it's

part of the open source initiative.

Many people aren't gonna like that
for those reasons, but, um, I think

that's the only way it's gonna succeed.

Yeah, I mean, I'd be interested
in talking about more of that,

but we can kind of wrap up.

My only thing would be, my two
questions would be, how does it look

like actually I want to say like entity
wise, but like, what would that be?

Like, it's, it's totally different thing.

I mean, I was kidding about the, the,
you know, the players association type

thing, but that kind of actually seems
somewhat synonymous to an extent.

But, um, and, but the other thing is like,
well, how do you, what do you message?

Like what, there's gotta
still be a message there.

Cause that's this problem
we're trying to solve.

Yeah.

So like, is it just
like WordPress is great.

Like, you know, cause
yeah, you know, that's what

Matt: I mean.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

Like you, it has to be boots on the
ground, building a strategy for the

different avatars of WordPress user,
which there are might be like, I don't

know, maybe six to a dozen big ways.

It could be, it could be for everyone.

Like WordPress is for everyone.

Like, well, there's definitely
ways to poke holes in that.

You could say that, but
you can't stop there.

Like you have to like say
WordPress for everyone.

And then like have, like you said, like.

multiple different avatars that you
could immediately say, basically

pick one, pick one of these that
defines you and we'll tell you exactly

how you would, not exactly how you
would run WordPress, but like how

people like you would use WordPress.

Yeah.

That's gotta be how it is.

And I'm not sure why that's not happened.

I it's probably gotta be just because
it's more of like a laissez faire.

Like we're not gonna, we're
not gonna dive into this at all

and tell you guys what to do.

Like this is just, this is what it is.

Like just, just, It's really great.

Just trust us.

Go in there and just,
you know, fuck around.

Yeah, but where do you

Matt: put, so that's the thing.

So where do you put that messaging?

So I have a video coming out that
Brian Kordes and I recorded yesterday,

which you should really enjoy.

We broke out a whole bunch, so it'll
be, no, this video will be live.

Our video that we're recording right now
will be live before the Brian episode.

So it's, Here's all the topics we covered.

Open Source, GPL, WordPress Beginnings
Evolution, Matt Mullenweg, Automatic,

Automatic Products, WordPress.

com, WPCloud, WordPress.

org, Openverse, Five for the Future,
Audrey Capital, WP Tavern, Jose De

Jampolsi, WordPress Foundation, WordCamps
and Meetups, Core Contributors, GitHub

Make vs Slack, WooThemes, and WooCommerce.

We went through every single
one of those, and broke it out,

um, as far as we understand it.

And we still didn't.

Touch on a lot of different
areas, uh, for WordPress.

But we broke down like everything we
knew about those different things.

And when you look at wordpress.

org, you're like, once we started
breaking it apart, there's a

shit ton of stuff on wordpress.

org tons of stuff.

Tons.

I mean, open verse five for
the future, all this stuff.

Um, you know, your profiles, your
forums, uh, the photo directory, there's

just like so much stuff on that site.

So if you have a marketing team,
where, where's the centralized

messaging that goes out for a open
source contributing marketing team?

There isn't one, right?

Which is the challenge.

And if there is, if you say
it's the homepage of wordpress.

org, well, that is running up
a hill because you now have to.

Ask the powers that be
to make those changes.

And that is a very sensitive
page for the overall project.

So it was Matt going to just say yes to
a bunch of volunteers that go, Hey, I got

some great ideas for our homepage now.

Probably not.

I don't blame them either.

You know?

So where do you put out
that centralized messaging?

One idea.

So, and look, when you start bringing
groups of people in and you start

talking about money, it's going to
freaking make this thing go so slow.

Cause everyone's going to
want to say, rightfully so.

Everyone's going to need to, you
know, read the room, figure out who's

going to get what out of this deal.

How much is this going to cost?

Who's going to wrangle the money?

How are we going to account for it?

One of the easiest things that people can
do is come up with this, um, solidified

message, like you're saying, like
maybe WordPress is great at the start.

And we adopt that into your five for
the, the things that already exist.

Like when I evaluate a problem,
what structures already exist

that we can leverage now?

Are they useful?

Yes or no?

And then if yes, let's use the
stuff we already have in place

so we're not creating a whole new
wheel like a marketing coalition.

So you could say, you know what,
there's a new thing we're coming

up with for five for the future.

Everybody writes.

A blog post about why WordPress is
great or what WordPress means to me.

So does everyone buy into this?

How many of you out there buy into this?

20 of you, two of you, a hundred of you.

If so, one, one day out of the
month, you all write a blog post

about why WordPress is great.

That's how we're giving back to
the marketing wheel without money

and without muddying the waters.

And it lives inside five for the
future, a structure that already exists.

Next month, write a blog post about
why WordPress is great for e commerce.

And we're all just pledging to
amplifying and making WordPress thrive.

That's what I got.

Interesting.

Um, I mean, it's an idea.

I don't know if there's no money in this.

I don't want to hear it.

Well, honestly, I mean, I was kind
of going that route, but like, I

mean, I don't know who we have to
run this, what we would have to run

that by nothing for the five for the

Matt: future.

That's the great thing.

So there's no, it's just a call, a call
to action and say, who wants to do it?

Everybody pledge your time this month.

And then, yeah, okay.

Maybe it takes somebody like you and
me to, Just from a, a promotional

purpose, like, okay, on this, we're
tracking all these blog posts.

Here's all the cool people
who contributed to this idea.

Maybe that's something that we can do.

I mean, I don't know, haven't really
thought about it, just heard it.

But, I, I would, I would question
like, Not everything has to

Matt: result in, in profit, Mark.

No, that's not it.

You just gotta, you just
gotta make money somehow.

I mean, cause you got to live because
you can't do everything for free.

So like, how do you, how, what, what,
but regardless of the money thing,

that's one concern, where does that,
how does that tangibly move the needle?

Matt: Well, you have a lot more, again,
you have to remember this is not, you

could also make the case if all of a
sudden five companies came together,

raise a hundred thousand dollars and
put a hundred thousand dollars out into.

advertising and content, right?

Like, how, how does that move the needle?

Um, I think that because this is a, a
lower barrier to entry, like, we're just

asking everyone this month for the part
of your Five for the Future of Marketing

WordPress to write about your, you know,
the first time you ever used WordPress.

Let's just, I'm just using that as a topic
idea, but hey, everyone that's involved

with this, to AMP WordPress, write about
your first time experiencing WordPress.

And everybody, and they get like
20 different stories out there.

Just 20 more chances of impact.

Next month it's, let's talk about why
WordPress is great for the e commerce.

Everybody writes one blog, like minimally.

Like we're just, we're just
minimally just setting the bar

to say, just at least do this.

Like if we want to improve marketing
before we get to consortiums and

who's got the money and who gets
what, let's just start with that man.

Let's get this message out there.

And just see how that goes.

And see how many people are
actually bought into this.

If it amplifies, it amplifies.

If it doesn't, you know, it doesn't.

Um, it's just an easier
takeoff in my opinion.

Yeah.

I mean, I personally would be much more
willing to make a video than write.

Well, whatever.

I mean, yeah, but I mean, I don't know.

That's an idea.

I would, I'd love to get
other opinions on that.

So if you guys are
listening, you let me know.

Um, but yeah, I mean, I don't know.

We'll, we'll workshop that.

We'll think maybe we'll run that off
the flagpole to some, I don't know.

Matt: He's Mark Zemanski.

You can find him at markzemanski.

co, mjs.

bio.

He's got a bunch of websites launching.

He's got a YouTube channel.

His number one course is 100 percent free.

If you want to learn about
dynamic WordPress data.

Right?

You go to Mark's YouTube channel.

Again, you can find the links at mjs.

bio.

Um, we're always asking for
money here at the WP Minute.

If you want to support us and sponsor
the work that we do, uh, talking about

WordPress, head on over to the WPMinute.

com slash support.

You can join the Slack channel,
where there's a whole bunch of

people, just over a hundred, who talk
about WordPress news and headlines.

You can join for as little as five bucks.

Five bucks, like you just
spent an hour with us.

If you said, boy, that was pretty good.

I think they're doing some good stuff.

It's worth a coffee.

If that in this day and
age, here's five bucks.

You get to join, uh, the slack channel.

I'd really love if you joined
for 79 a year to really show your

vote of confidence, uh, and the
value you get from the WP minute

head on over to the WP minute.

com slash support.

See you in the next episode.

You'll eventually see us in the next
episode as soon as I find the end

recording button, which is right here.