The WP Minute+

Matt: Corey Miller,
welcome to the WP Minute.

Cory: my friend, Matt,

Matt: Uh, man, you have, uh, Uh,
storied background in WordPress.

I think a lot of the folks listening
to this, no, a lot of bit, a lot of

it, uh, about what you've been up to,
obviously post status I themes, but

you've got a new role, which we're
going to dive into in a little bit,

a two hosting community growth, lead
community, WordPress evangelist.

I mean, it's like the same
titles you and I, we were sharing

Cory: all the things

Matt: Yeah, it's all the things,
uh, we're cultivating relationships,

connecting people with our respective
brands, talking about WordPress.

We're going to dive into
that in a little bit.

You just go back.

From WordCamp Canada.

How was it?

Cory: it was fantastic.

I tell you, uh, it'd been, I think, seven
years since I've been back to Canada for a

WordCamp, went to WordCamp Ottawa back in
the day, and, um, it was great to be back.

So we were excited.

I'm excited too, because, um, for a nation
to have a camp like that in our backyard,

uh, Big community there and just to see
them start something new in the first year

is always that groundbreaking year And
I gotta say it's fantastic You know, I

don't know if you've organized word camps.

I don't think you have I know

Matt: way back WordCamp
Providence, Rhode Island.

I did a fundraise.

This was like one of my first
forays into the WordPress community.

And, uh, I did, they were like, Oh,
does anybody know how to do fundraising?

I'm like, yeah, I can.

So I, they gave me the role and the
first place I called was Dunkin Donuts.

Because in my head, right, in my
head, because back then, like it was

the Providence had, uh, the, the, the
dunk, the dunk is what it was called.

It was, uh, the, where like, uh,
Providence College plays basketball.

It was a, you know, venue,
a sports arena slash venue.

So I was like, well, obviously
I'm going to go for the

person who has the most money.

Dunkin Donuts, right?

And they were like, they were like, no,
we can't go for that kind of sponsor.

I'm like, well, what is, what
backwards reality are we in here?

I'm trying to raise some
money, but anyway, sorry.

That, that was my foray
into organizing a word camp.

Cory: I love that.

I think they're so incredible.

I've probably been to 50
of them over the years.

And, but my little secret is I've
never been on an organizing team.

I just go, Hey, no, you are passionate.

You do the work.

I want to help and support
and tell you, thank you.

And all that we can do to, to support you.

Cause it's, it's such a tough job.

You know, that from that, it's just,
it's all volunteer work and passion work.

And I think the organizers are
the last people to opt out.

You know, really get a
true thank you for that.

So I always just kind of show
up and go, what can I do?

You know, if you need me to
fold up chairs, I'll do that.

Um, this, this being the first one and
the organizing team is so incredible.

Um, we w we want it to go into the future.

So this is us saying.

Thank you.

We support you.

We're here.

We're, this is a longterm thing, but as
you know, since, uh, since the pandemic,

it's, it just kind of obliterated some
of the word camps and they're trying

to feel like they're trying to get back
on their legs and stuff, and so it was

important to, to be there for this one,
um, to help this kind of get restarted.

Cause they feel like it's, it's just
kind of taking some more time to get

work camps back off the ground and.

Matt: Recently, James drew.

Oh, there, there was a recent,
um, I wasn't a study, but

it was a write up on make.

wordpress that, uh, new WordCamp
goers are on the decline.

Uh, James drew wrote up recently
something to the effect of like, Hey,

we need to hit a younger audience.

And that can mean many things.

Like that can mean real young, or
that could mean 20 to 29, right?

Because that's a demographic I
don't see much of, uh, in, in

traditional WordPress community.

But what was your, uh,
Take away from Canada.

Did it look like new people?

Young people?

What did it feel like?

What did the vibe feel like?

Cory: That's a great question.

Um, I Been have been around long enough
where i've got friends at most of these

Matt: You're like i'm still young.

I was there

Cory: I'm definitely not young.

I showed a picture, by the way, WordCamp,
uh, Chicago, I found 2010 in my talk.

And I was like, I'm
not this young anymore.

I was, I don't know, 33 or
some four and I'm like now 48.

So I feel like the old, you know,
the elder walking in, but, um, you

know, a lot of, uh, faces that I know
for sure, but then a mix of people

still doing cool stuff with WordPress
that showed up and just, just takes

time and effort for people to.

You know, block off from their workday
and met a lot of WordPress agency

owners across Canada, and it's, uh,
it's, it's exciting to see that there's

still the fires are still burning.

You know, it's about
everything that's happened.

Matt: Yeah There's a I was trying to
explain this to somebody the other

day that word camps Uh, you know, we
can debate, uh, topics being presented

at WordCamps, like, should I go to a
WordCamp, yes or no, a lot of people just

like, look at the, look at the agenda,
and like, you know, I don't want any of

this development stuff, maybe I want more,
you know, business stuff, or maybe I want

more marketing stuff, or maybe I just
want, I, I just want to know how to use

WordPress, like, you, you guys are talking
about building blocks in JavaScript,

like, that's not for me, I, I just
want to know how to use this platform.

I think one of the great things
is, is there, there are days, uh,

I forget, I don't know if they call
them training days, I forget what the

name of it is, it's like the first
day, it's not the contributor day.

Well, the contributor day is there, but
don't most WordCamps also have a day where

you can just show up and be like, help me,

Cory: Help with your website.

Matt: help me with this thing.

Cory: I haven't seen that recently.

I think it's, there's
probably still there.

It's not say it isn't, but I
remember what you're talking about.

Hey, you need WordPress help.

This is like an all day genius bar
kind of thing and or happiness bar.

And they had that there too.

And I saw people there, which is great.

Cause you know, the
hard thing was working.

I was trying to hit all these
avatars, all the different use cases.

And I think that's, You know, what
you might be alluding to is just,

it's tough for like, you know, an
agency owner, they're out there

trying to sell client work, deliver
client work, and then to come.

And it feels probably more
networking across the times

I've been around where I get it.

They're very passionate about WordPress.

They kind of come to network
with their colleagues, but

for something just for them.

In fact, one of the people that works for
Automatic And as a full time contributor

to the community project, you know, I'm
slipping our name, I'm still in travel

fog, but very passionate about, and it was
mentioned like at WordPress agency summit.

And I was like, Hey, we're all in.

I think there's a lot of build for
that, but a focus thing to just help

those like you have ran an agency in
the past, you know what you're doing

and talk about those key issues.

So I hope that happens.

Matt: yeah.

There's, um.

Speaking about being the old people
in the room, I don't know what it is.

It's, I guess it's a human thing
where like, we've seen it before.

Like we've seen the press nomics,
the prestige conf, um, post status.

You, when you were partnered with Brian,
uh, did a onsite call again, a lot of this

stuff is pre COVID, which is obviously a
huge speed bump in how we were all getting

together, but we've seen these events.

Uh, what was the one loop comp was the
one that Ryan, I think Sullivan did.

Like we've seen all this before
and we're like, Oh yeah, like

we have those, we've had those.

So it's almost like we forget that
these new people coming in are like,

no, what we want, we want more content.

We want different content.

You know, we want that business
where we want hardcore development.

Um, and, and I I'm hoping that the
foundation and the word camp Uh,

teams are starting to think in that
and I hope it's more open because I

think even Matt's recent, um, summer,
I think he called it like the summer

address or like the summer update of,
of WordPress, you know, he mentioned

about themes, like themes and wordpress.

org, uh, Hey, we, we should
be a little bit more loose.

We should be a little bit.

you know, more lenient on like
the strict, here's a theme

and here's what it should do.

Like I hope that kind of spreads
into, into the word camps because

I don't see any other way to really
facilitate these different tracks.

And, and I know the work is in, in motion,
but with most things open source and

WordPress, it's going to take some time,
but I really hope, uh, you know, that

this stuff really, you know, kicks in
because I think a lot of people want it.

Cory: I totally agree back to your
original thought on this, about

like new, how to bring in new users.

Uh, I'm going to probably mispronounce
his name, but I got to meet Hamanti

who runs and started WordCamp Nepal
and he lives in Canada now, but he,

his whole talk was about how he did
that and it was interesting note.

So when they, he's obviously passionate
about WordPress, he's a developer and.

He was like, how do we build the
momentum for WordCamp Nepal and this?

So they went to the colleges and they
started training people in WordPress

and you're like That's incredible.

That's what we need.

Get to, like you said, the new, the
new people to WordPress, perhaps the

younger generation, help them see,
like, look at this awesome platform

and ecosystem and get them in.

We need those types of things.

I think coming back into the
ecosystem and his was a great example.

He showed pictures of the.

The word camp and all the people.

And it was a lot of young people
that, um, kind of getting into tech

and then doing this particularly.

And I think we need more of that,
but it was a great example of

what we probably need to start
doing, I think, as a ecosystem.

Matt: I haven't been
following the story closely.

If anyone else has and, and, and has
some details and, and really it's, I

should just ask because, uh, you know,
I, I know a lot of them, but, um, I

think there's a, a new, as an example,
there's a, uh, uh, word camp, uh, the

meetup in, in the uk, WordPress Meetup uk.

But I think there's like the official
one, an unofficial one that's happening.

And to me, what, and again, I've
just loosely heard about this stuff.

Um, I, I should really dig into it,
but when I hear that, I understand as

somebody who ran a WordPress meetup
locally to me and, you know, The

corner of nowhere you've been here
before, Corey, we're not in a big area.

Um, I can understand like the
bureaucracy, the red tape,

like, Oh, you got to do this.

And it's just like, Hey, I'm just
trying to get people together.

To talk about WordPress, like,
do I have to do all this stuff?

Or will you just let me get five or
six people in a coffee shop and I can

use meetup so, and I can, when I hear
that, when I see like, Hey, there's an

official and an unofficial in, in the
UK, which is obviously a big map, uh,

to cover, uh, I can understand like,
look, there's gotta be some loose.

Agreements here on how this works.

Like, what are we getting for
the official WordPress meetups?

And what do we, what are we
missing on the other side?

So if we don't do the official channel,
like what, what are we missing?

Is it topics?

Is it funding?

I don't even think they do that anymore.

They used to pay for like pizza, um,
the meetup page and it gets inside

of WordPress, but do we have to jump
through all these hoops to get that?

Or just let us, let us meet
up and connect with WordPress.

Like that's the best part about it.

Cory: people with that spark, a passion
that want to just get community built

locally and started, how do we just get
out of the way a little bit, but give

you enough resources to get that going?

Because, you know, Katie Richards that
my colleague at A2 and I have talked,

she's done a ton of community work.

We've had meetups?

Because all of this stuff started from.

Like you doing it in your local community,
building that enthusiasm, energy for

what it's doing and connecting into
something bigger that built into these.

And they're a huge part of the marketing.

They're a huge part of the community
support where we're all remote.

So when we get to actually like rub elbows
and talk shop, like we did at WordCamp

Canada, it's, it's a, such a good.

Time to gel that like, okay, there's
other people just as passionate as me out

there, but I think You've grounded it back
into it needs to start very very local

and how do we how do we resource that?

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, I'm taking a guess.

I'm forgetting.

I've got great notes today, as you can
tell, but I think your talk title was,

everything will be okay, uh, was Mm

Cory: My talk was actually about burnout
and recovery And I said recovering, um,

from a couple of years ago, and this is
something we've shared before, but really

getting a little distance from that and
sharing how I was off for six months of

work did not work first time in my career.

I'd been really like, did not feel I
could work, did not want to go to work.

Um, and so sharing the, before the buildup
to that, How that six months was kind of

crazy, um, and resetting for me now, and
then some takeaways for how to do work

better for who I am now, what I can do.

Um, like I was mentioning, I'm older now.

I can't just grind, grind, grind.

Uh, I've got to take care of my body.

Got to maybe slow things down a
little bit, uh, which is tough.

So.

And I feel like that's part of, you know,
even if we didn't have pandemic, I think

us that do remote work, you and I, and
most WordPress is we're kind of in our

little home offices doing cool stuff.

And maybe we're meeting on zoom, but
we're not getting as much of that.

social interaction.

And, uh, you know how it is.

I think you and I personally
talked about these things.

Just like that.

Living the entrepreneurial
life is a plus 100 to all that.

Cause it's, you know, you're
grinding, you're doing these

things just like you do with this.

You've got a day job.

You do these other things cause
you're passionate about it.

But over time, how that kind of
builds up and you're like, I just

don't want to be in there Hmm.

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah.

There's Yeah, I mean, multiple times,
uh, of, of burnout, and I guess that

could just mean different, it could, it's
different severities, at least this is

my opinion, I'm no, no specialist, and
maybe you have some insight into this,

but there's, there's different levels of
it, and, but I can feel it when I'm just

like, I, I don't want to do the Like I can
feel myself like whatever it is, right?

It could be piece of content
that I've been working on

for years, uh, the podcast.

And like, I can feel it
because I'm like, I avoid it.

I avoid it.

I'm not even telling myself.

Don't do it.

I'm avoiding it at all costs and
then I like a week goes by and I and

I start to realize Wait a minute.

You've been avoiding this thing It's
because it's not getting done and you're

you're not happy about it not getting
done And you're also like mad that you

still wanted that you're fighting your
own self to do it And then you that's

when I start to realize oh my god.

I need to either shift
gears and or reevaluate.

Sometimes it's just reevaluating the
priorities of it and starting with like

something super simple to just like,
get back into the rhythm of things.

Um, but then there's just major shifts
where I can feel this thing on repeat.

Don't want to do it anymore.

Not happy with it.

I got to find something else and
really change that trajectory of

the thing that's burning me out.

Um, do you have like an indicator
that you, That you recognize, that

you lean into when you're like,
Oh God, I can feel it coming and

I need to adjust and strategize.

Cory: You just shared my talk basically.

Well done.

I mean, you're already recognizing it.

Um, so the world health organization
is where I came, kind of look at when

I was going through it and all that.

Cause I was like, okay, I'm obviously
burned out, but I've, I've crashed.

It's not even the indicators I've crashed.

And looking back, the three they use
is, uh, energy depletion or exhaustion,

feelings of negatism, uh, or cynicism,
and the third is professional efficacy.

And how I translate that is,
and you just share, you shared

that, like you're, you're, you're
consciously aware of those things.

Me, I was like, go, go, go.

But it was no progress.

Feelings of like things aren't, I'm
not, what I'm doing isn't working.

Now you and I raise our
hands, entrepreneurship.

You can just say right there, boom.

Um, but like in, in any kind of
work is I'm not getting things done.

I don't feel any progress.

Second one that hit me was bad attitude.

And, you know, you're oftentimes the
person I can vent to professionally

about some of these, and you have,
thank, thank you, by the way, is

like, when it's not working, I start
to get a bad attitude about it.

Like, it's just, and that's where that
negativity, cynicism, for me, it was,

uh, frustration led to anger, led to,
um, resentment, led to bitterness.

And.

I had gotten there
where nothing's working.

I'm bitter.

And, you know, in retrospect, it's
always easier, but you know, looking

how it kind of domino down when
frustration isn't handled properly.

How did it go to anger
for myself in reflection?

The last I'll say this was the inciting
event for me, Matt, because those two.

At any point, if I'd been opening about
it, we, you and I had been talking,

I've been like, you probably saw
it, but really bad attitude, right?

Not making progress.

But the third was key.

I think this is the one that
tripped everything just kind of

fell apart was I broke my foot,
uh, the physical part of it.

And I was mentally and emotionally
exhausted from the other two,

but the third was the one that
everything came crashing down.

I broke my foot racing barefoot,
my kids in the backyard.

And I just happened to, it's, uh,
called the seismoid on your big toe,

happened to hit a rock right perfectly.

And there's supposed to be, I
guess, two bones that kind of

fuse together when you're a kid.

And it just little bitty
fracture in that foot.

I haven't, there's nothing
I could do about it.

There's no surgery.

It'll just make it worse.

So I limped around for four or
five months on a post op boot.

Cause that was the only thing
I could do that wouldn't hurt.

But what they did physically to me,
it's just kind of tilt my body and

almost three years later, I've just now
starting to feel better because that

little break kind of cascaded through my
body, limping around my hips route, you

know, my back, um, those of us that sit
in the chair and do computer work all

day, kind of resonate with it, I'm sure.

But that was the point I was
like, wait a minute, body.

You, you've been just the
go, you can just go, go, go.

And I was pushing it to it and just broke.

So I put the picture up of, you know,
your car dashboard and all the lights,

you know, the speed is zero, everything's
off and it's just lights going broken.

That's how I felt.

But if that event didn't happen, I
probably would've kept trying, you know,

to go, but that's what really, okay.

Now, Corey, you know, I
tried to come back to my.

Work.

I think you and I, I was probably
talking to you about all this

during this time too, Matt.

Um, I tried to go back after winter break
over the, in 2021 and I couldn't get

near a computer without feeling sick.

There's nothing wrong with my, like
nothing was going on in my stomach or

anything, but my stomach would hurt.

My inner energy would just vanish.

It was like, and I'd have to go lay
down and I was like, hold on a minute.

What is this?

Cause I prided myself on.

Work and join work.

Matt: yeah, there's in the business
specifically that maybe you or I, or I,

you and I are in, um, but as I'm talking
out loud, I'm also thinking about like

when I was running the agency, like I
felt it the same, I felt like the same

things happen, but I think there's, um,

Maybe you have some better insight
into this, but there's probably some

direct correlation to like how much
you care about the work that you're

doing, to how much this impacts you.

Like, if I didn't care, right, about
content that I was putting out or

clients I was serving, and maybe that's
even too harsh, I think, There's a,

you know, if you were doing, uh, even
to keep it in the website side of, of

things, like if you just did a thousand
dollar websites, that's what you did.

It's 1000 bucks.

This is what it is.

I do it on repeat.

I build the system.

I launch, I go, I get
customers, I bring them in.

I do ads.

I bring them in launch repeat.

There's a.

Certain certain level of like almost
like manufacturing there where maybe

you feel like a little bit disconnected
from the business and you can shut

the laptop off and go because you're
not thinking creatively like am I

making an impact on these people?

Like, am I really
helping their businesses?

And maybe you are, but especially
in this content business.

Or in community business, like you've
been in with post status, like it's so

hard to evaluate to just be like, okay,
revenue, okay, great revenue, right?

But these are humans that you're
trying to like corral and do

things with and leave an impact and
man, the emotional rollercoaster.

Off the charts.

And you know, I see this all the time.

People are like best WordPress
newsletter and it's not yours.

And you're like, what the fuck?

Like, ha, I've been
doing this man for years.

And you're my friend.

How are you saying this out loud?

Like I'm doing this thing forever.

And you don't think, but you
know, this is all, uh, you know,

this is all, uh, perspective.

Like people, you know, might not look
at you as your newsletter, but you get

so attached to this stuff that it has
like this visceral, um, impact on you.

Positive, negative, you know, or neutral.

It's a tough space.

Cory: So you said the word attached
and you just rang the bell for me

right there is care so much, but when
it went into attachment of it and you

could probably resonate this, um, one
thing I shared and really, you know, in

reflection occurred to me is that, you
know, in 2008, when I started iThemes,

I got to put on this fancy, I put like
a You know, I had AI create this like

astronauts helmet that was glowing.

It's like entrepreneur, tech
entrepreneur, that those two.

And I fell in love with it.

I loved that it was an identity
that resonated with me.

But the problem for me was I cared so
much and a lot of things factor into this.

But I didn't, wasn't willing
to take that helmet off.

Like I didn't, I didn't want to, I
couldn't fathom not being this either.

So cared so much.

You try to help people impact purpose.

Like you're talking
about a hundred percent.

That's the entrepreneurs.

We are purpose and profit, right?

Two.

They're, they're both,
they have to go together.

But, uh, for me that care and then
survival, okay, what am I going to do?

I want to make a living that
profit part of the purpose.

I want to be paid to do
this work for other people.

And, um, all of that fed into feelings
of intent where I was like, I couldn't

fathom not being off work for six or
being off work for six months, or.

Not being an entrepreneur.

And so I forgot in that whole thing,
it sounds obvious now, but I've

forgotten all that thing through
all of these different things you've

kind of shared that I say, you did.

Oh, it was me.

You know, I was the space suit, the
entrepreneurial tech entrepreneur.

And didn't, you know, finally through
a lot of just growing older and

evolving, growing as a person, I hope,
um, realized like that was an old worn

out costume for me and it was okay to
maybe go, maybe there's something else.

And that's what led me to even put
my resume together and even being a

two, my friends over there and see
if there was something, because.

Uh, I was willing to finally take that
off and go, okay, I'm very proud of what

I've done during that period of time.

Maybe there's a point when I become
an entrepreneur somewhere way,

way, way, way, way down the road.

I'm not saying never to that, but
like for now I'm okay taking it off.

And that was a lot of work.

Mental physical emotional to get there.

Matt: Yeah, there's something, uh,
what I've been, I call it practicing,

but it's just kind of how, how I've,
I've learned to, to cope with it

is just literally trying to detach
from, uh, from the work and just say

like, like, I don't save anything.

I save nothing.

Videos, mp3s, blog posts.

If it's up there, it's there.

But I have no backups.

There's no backups.

I don't want the backups.

I don't need it.

I don't need a thousand hard drives
filled with the last decade worth

of work that I've done because it
is not me and I don't want to carry

it forward because I want to change.

Like, I want this to end.

Cory: Mm

Matt: Right?

This is something I've been, like,
I've been thinking about this.

This might get a little morbid.

We try not to go too deep into this,
but I don't want to die suddenly.

And you were like, Oh,
that WordPress guy died.

Cory: hmm.

Matt: I don't, I want it to, I
want to finalize this, hopefully.

Move on to something else right move on to
bigger and better things or just different

things like not even bigger and better
like I'm right now I'm doing another

side project called our beloved medium.

I'm an executive producer for an audio
documentary with a fictional twist on it

Celebrating a lot of radios most impactful
moments in history, and it's a six part

audio documentary doing it with a producer
friend of mine Never done it before.

I know nothing about being
an executive producer.

I'm fundraising right now and doing
some marketing for it But I'm not

the you know, I'm not speaking into a
microphone for it for the first time.

I'm not writing a script
I'm not researching.

I'm not creating anything and
I'm like, this is the next thing

whether it's Successful or not.

Like this is just like the next
thing that I need to you know, keep

moving forward to Little deep little

Cory: see I heard a bunch in that.

No, I'm so glad I part of us even
having this and thank you for even

sharing that And then having the
conversation is to destigmatize to

erase the stigma about these things
because if we don't Get these out.

We're going to bottle it up
and hurt silently and suffer.

And that's my story,
you know, um, for sure.

It's just, I'd rather bottle those
up, keep this to myself, try to deal

with them and then realize I can't.

But you know, what I heard in that
real quick is, you know, a decade of

doing all this, but there's a passion
underneath it, it just happened to

be focused on WordPress for this last
decade, web design work, the internet,

things like that, the passion I've
always seen you is you love this.

Talking, having these conversations
vocally with video and, you know,

having those getting to the heart,
really addressing the conversations.

That's a part of you.

Now, this is just your friend
sharing their perspective.

I've seen this over and over.

So for maybe a decade, it's
been focused on this topic.

But could you, you're being willing to
change a role and perspective in it.

But the passion is what's to me is
burning underneath that, which is

your love for this type of work.

That's what I had to push
down and get to for me.

And I love creative work.

So when I took off some of the
barriers that that helmet, the

entrepreneurial helmet did and
realized like, I could actually, okay.

If I take one layer off, which is.

I will work with somebody
else for somebody else.

Um, could I still do the creativity
that I love that drives me?

And I found it with this particular
role for this season of time.

And I'm so thankful for it because
when I can just take off some of that,

maybe it was pride, hubris, whatever
it was, um, you know, being in the

bold entrepreneur kind of thing.

Okay.

Take that off for a second.

I can apply the bold, the
innovation to other things.

And that's what I heard.

And you're sure that connects with me.

Is there's still a seed
that's not burnt out, right?

There's this passion, whatever we
call it inside that drives, kind

of drives us, keeps our fire going.

And when we hit these dead ends, which
I have, um, going, okay, maybe there's

another thing I could apply that same
thing to, and where I'm thankful.

They created this role for me.

I just said, I marketing,
I think is my thing.

You know, what would that look like?

And they, you know, Paul, the CEO
over there was like, well, this role.

And I was like, Oh my God, you
see me, you value me for this.

And I want to spend some time in that
and not have to worry about these

other things I did as an entrepreneur.

Matt: Yeah.

And it's taking those strengths and,
and you're taking the strength, uh, the

strengths that you have, the skillset
that you've built up, and you're

just running it, you're running a new
mission with, with a brand, right?

That's the way I see it
with, with Gravity Forms.

You obviously love the team at A2.

You wouldn't do it if you didn't.

Um, I love Gravity Forms because
I've been using it forever.

And I love the team
and I love the mission.

So I go and I take all of my
skill set and I say, this is

what I'm really good at here.

I want to connect with other
people, make partnerships, give

you ideas on how to run the team.

Uh, how to, uh, uh, maybe do things
with the product features, bells

and whistles, things like that.

And of course, a tribute to, to marketing.

Because I love that message and I, and
I love the fact that I can represent

Gravity Forms and say, it's the best
form builder for fill in the blank.

Right?

And it's just a mission
that I'm attached to.

And really passionate about, right?

And I think that there's there.

That's like an inroad to
be like, it's okay, man.

Like you don't need to, you know,
this crazy idea of, you know, running

this entrepreneurial empire because
it could still come on, you know, you

could still do something and you're
still associated with post status.

Obviously we're going to talk about
that in a second, but even the work that

you're doing at a two, there's still room
there to be like, Hey, you know what?

Maybe I'll just start spinning up
my newsletter and my blog again.

And I start like, that's
my creative outlet.

Yeah.

Along with my career
and that's totally fine.

Cory: You just really nailed it.

When we're talking about care, you care
about something, but you also believe in

it when you believe in care, and that's
something you and I have in common.

Like, we wouldn't have done
these things if we didn't really

believe and care about them.

Then that focus, where we're
aiming that, you hit those endings.

I'm so glad you said that.

Like, yeah, maybe somebody could
say more, but it is a part of life.

Ending endings is a part of life.

It's just, you look around,
it's a cycle, right?

And we go, okay, is burnout
telling us these things?

Like for me, Hey, maybe there's something
else and better for me, for the world.

And, but that belief in care,
I think is what we're kind of

talking about that seed below.

And.

Could there just be another way
to express that in the world?

Absolutely.

We've chose the two businesses
we're at because we believe in care.

So we get to apply these talents to
them, but that the seed is still there.

And if it's aimed somewhere else, and
that's what I, I had put artificial limits

on myself by going, I'm an entrepreneur.

I can only do this.

I can't work for anybody else.

I don't want to work.

And releasing that helped me to go.

Oh, I could actually do it for somebody
else, take some of these things off that

were like crushing me, focus on these
things and I'm getting to do these deeper.

Like I've done in a very, I
would say more informal way in

my head at least, community and
evangelism and all these things.

Matt: and you built a business And you
built and sold the business which is huge.

All right, there's from the

Cory: I get to explore that deeper
though, this community stuff.

Like, what if I just do that?

Oh, I'm in.

Matt: yeah.

Yeah 100 there's um From like the
business perspective, you know

when you're evaluating this stuff.

I think the worst thing this is just my
opinion I'd love to hear your thoughts

on it is when you're stuck in the middle
It's, it's very hard to see because the

middle is actually a safe ground, right?

And it, and it has those
slight like margins where it

bounces up and down, right?

Where it can be stressful, but it can also
be, you know, nice because work's getting

done and you're somewhat profitable,
but you're not ultra profitable.

And this is what I saw.

Um, Well, you know, go back to story
history and my family ran car dealerships

for 45 years in our community, but then
ran an agency for a decade with my dad.

And there's something about like
when you're stuck in the middle,

especially with an agency role.

Um, It's easy to fall in and slot into
that meaning you're not profit You don't

have enough business coming in with enough
profitability to expand and and scale

the business to get to the next step
But you're but at the hard times you're

not small enough to cut back like costs
without literally like getting rid of

people You're not small enough because
the projects that you're trying to take

in are somewhat pretty heavy, right and
you need You need more of them to get to

the next step, but you also need to be
profitable to get to that next step too.

It's a supremely hard balance.

And when you're stuck in that
middle ground, it can be hard

to identify it because it's
seasonal and it can be years long.

And you're just like three, four years
later, like, why haven't we grown?

Like we're not out of
business, but we haven't grown.

And the hard times are
kind of hard, right?

Because we can't really shrink it down
because we we've built up this overhead.

Um, It's tough in that business.

And I don't know if plugins, I guess
software can fall in that same category.

Um, where you kind of just stay in
the middle, you don't realize that

you're not growing, but you don't
want to get rid of it kind of thing.

Uh, but those are things like when I
look at helping anybody with whatever

content creation or business, I'm just
like, are you stuck in that middle?

And can you either maximize
like a huge growth spurt?

Like, can you go up market?

Are you ready for that?

Or is there a way to just like
cut the fat and just drop down to

A lower level with less overhead.

Doesn't mean you're smaller, but
you just have less overhead, and

you can manage it and have more
breathing room at the end of the day.

Cory: It's funny.

Cause I think the best medicine is that.

Is the hardest to take yourself.

But when I hear that, I go so many
times, and this is why I love work.

I get to help and support entrepreneurs
in this role, but not be one.

So I can help.

Cause I know I've been there and, but
it's so tough because you're in this.

Um, think about it, you know, as a
business owner, your family, your

identity, your financial, all the things
kind of revolve eventually around.

And The business and so the middle when
you said that you're like you're in the

middle of that Like okay, if we don't
make this get this project and take

this project down And get that revenue.

It's not just mine.

It is my own family
supported by this work.

It's also my team and different things.

And that just collectively
adds up over time.

And so it's so different because you
go like someone from the outside could

go, Oh, you should have separated
your identity from your business.

Very, very easy to say if you haven't
lived it very, very easy to say the hard

medicine is like, well, let's acknowledge.

If I don't get that project, I've
got to figure something out for

my family and my team financially.

If, I mean, if, if I don't keep
going, then I'm not surviving.

And it's constant survival mode in many
times, seasons of life of an entrepreneur.

Um, and it just all cumulatively adds up.

So most of us stumble into this.

Not many of us go, I'm
going to go do that.

We like woke up one day and had
an agency or product business

or whatever business it was.

And you kind of, kind of get in
that for me, it was just kind of

blended over time and it compounded.

And I'm like, Oh, this isn't working now.

I have two children.

You have kids like.

I didn't want to start the business.

Now I do.

I want more diversity.

So that is the constant struggle.

And, uh, it's, it's Island life.

You know, it's in the middle of an
ocean by yourself, because who can

you talk to about these things?

You're carrying the
world on your shoulders.

It's survival mode.

How am I going to eat next?

How are we going to do?

And that's why it's so isolating and
what I love talking and working with

entrepreneurs, because I'm like, I get it.

This is a tough thing we've chosen to do.

Yeah.

Matt: So before we start talking
about post status and how you've maybe

structured it now and like, I don't want
to say taking a step back, but you're

in the primary role at A2, um, at A2,
what other future plans did you have?

You just brought on Katie, right?

And connecting with the community,
obviously going to WordCamps, like any

other big things that you're trying
to do with A2 that, um, you know,

that the community should know about?

Absolutely.

Cory: The biggest thing for us in
A2 overall is who A2 is, reflection

of them bringing us in to do this
new team for them is a reflection

of who they've been for 21 years.

Um, done great work internally.

Haven't always been able to
share it out too, but our

thing is just the relationship.

I don't want to say we have another
agency partner program because

partnership partner in agency world,
it's just like managed hosting.

What is it really?

Matt: you go.

Cory: That doesn't mean those things.

And for us, it's just all about
relationships starting first

with, okay, you run an agency.

What are the things
you're struggling with?

What are the challenges you have?

And one, we have to, we have
to show up as your team.

You shouldn't have to worry
about hosting, you know, hosting.

It's, it's a, if you have to,
something's probably off it's okay.

You need to go do your
work and be freed up.

And then from our team's
perspective, uh, Katie and I is okay.

What else can we help with?

How can we support you best?

Sometimes it's just hearing.

Okay.

I'm, I'm dealing with this,
uh, project management is

something we hear a lot, right?

Okay, cool.

Then that kind of could come into
connecting them with somebody internally,

externally that we know, but also sharing
some content that gives them an idea

or an inspiration for that challenge.

Knowing.

Every business, every business owner
is different, but that's really what is

showing up as truly the collaborator.

I'm using collaborator, not
partner because partners got

so lost meaning in all this.

How do we just show up and
go, we're here to help you.

What can we do and try to do that?

And that's not all clear just
yet, but we know some of the

issues they struggle with.

Um, the other component is like
you said, showing up at WordCamps

and just connecting with people.

So we'll be at WordCamp US,
our team is in charge of that.

This is new for both Katie and I, and
so it's going to be fun, but that's just

one facet of like how we try to connect
with people in person and offline.

Matt: I did a stint three years
at a company called Pagely.

I know what it's like to show up at
an event with a hosting brand on.

Oh boy, you probably have a sword under
there just in case somebody comes at you.

How did you, how do you feel,
or how did it feel going to the

first WordCamp as an affiliate?

As a host, because host
recommendations, reviews.

It is a thing in the WordPress space.

Uh, and you get some side eyes at
the buffet line when you're getting

your food for the, for WordCamp.

What was it like?

Cory: That was interesting
being on the other side of that,

cause it's always working with
hosting companies, um, for sure.

On the other side, I tried to show up
as me, but it was something like, Oh, I

should probably know more details about
the particular things that we offer.

I know the broad strokes for sure.

I'm not a technical expert
on hosting for sure.

I leave that to Brian or founder and our
leadership team and awesome support team.

But, um, But I can share values
that we espouse and connect to,

and then find somebody to help
with some of the specific answers.

I wouldn't say it was antagonistic at all.

Um, I think one thing I've always
valued from the hosting industry

overall is they do have the money.

You can't really run
WordPress without hosting.

So, um, but they also
support an undergird.

The things like WordCamp, like for
the sponsorship, it's expensive.

An agency owner or product company might
not have the money or feel the value

of it, but a hosting has done that.

And I hope they keep all of us,
not just a two, uh, all the hosting

companies recognize, like, if we don't
support this, it's going to wane.

We have to show up and do that.

So there's some responsibility
in my opinion, we showed up.

That's why we had a micro booth this year.

I'll have to send you a picture so
you can share it, but it was like,

Katie got me a little stand because
we had a shared booth for this year

because our team's still getting
budget and things like that together.

But it was like, we pulled up
the little eight by 10 stand.

I was like, this is hilarious, but trying
to show our support for WordCamp Canada.

Next year, when you do it, we'll be better
equipped to kind of show up and help.

Really, really, truly support you.

Um, yeah, I, I think I find it very open.

Most people are very open.

You always get the, and we want to
hear them, the problems that happens.

I will say though.

You and I could probably
guess them right now.

What the ones you hear over and
over, you know, support, right.

Product for sure is in there.

And the, but really the third is value.

And you go, no, we always want to
hear that, but we kind of get a sense.

Like we have to do those three things
over and over and over at a high clip.

And, um, we just know that's part
of the job, but the other side is

we're trying to explore is how,
how could we show up Better for

you as a true partner collaborator.

We're still figuring that out.

Matt: this past WordCamp, uh,
US, uh, where you and I met, um,

I mean, I was, I haven't been on
the other side of the booth either

until this is the first one with

Cory: All right.

A

Matt: And I was just like,
wow, that, yeah, a lot of work.

A lot more work than I thought went
into, you know, setting up a booth,

uh, let alone a standard booth.

Like it wasn't anything, you know, crazy.

Like we have the, the astronaut
suit and we have the VR set up and

a couple, maybe a couple extra TVs.

But then you look at some of the big
players, like, I don't know, jet pack

Elementor, Bluehost, and you're like,
Oh my God, this is, this is forever.

But the costs, even for gravity forms.

astronomical, right?

And it really has me worried about
the future of funding for WordCamp.

So, um, yeah, there's definitely
going to be some, some play there in,

in how we structure these, on these
in person events, maybe bringing it

down to a certain number count, uh,
just the, the, the pillar events

in, in the different continents.

And maybe that's what we ended up with,
but, um, yeah, costs and everything

are, are, are quite high, uh, and
a lot of work at the same time.

Um, Wrapping up, folks are wondering,
Hey, what about this post status thing?

You got it.

It's yours.

Uh, you brought on Yost as a partner
as partners, a few ish years ago.

I'm forgetting when, uh, last year.

What's the, how do you, do you do
like a 10 percent post status thing?

Like, how do you keep that balance
now so that you can keep everything

under control and not, you know,
burn out and get overwhelmed with

having dual roles and being a dad.

Cory: Right.

Thankfully we've had, uh, Michelle
for shit for a couple of years now.

And in January naming her as our
executive director to have a point person,

someone energetic as she is kind of
keeping the flame alive at post status.

So it's in really, really good hands.

So I can step away and.

Yos, Marika and I are owners of
Posettis and we all feel passionate.

It needs to exist in the world,
even if I had to step away, there's

another thing that kind of played
into all of this, which is can that

business support full time team?

And at the moment it couldn't,
um, last year with economic stuff

happening, uh, a lot of the same
companies we're talking about hosting

companies, which are our sponsors.

Um, as you know, something, a
common frustration, you and I

share, um, how to cut budgets.

And the first thing to
go is sponsored media.

And so that was simultaneous
with me stepping aside or

back was, okay, let's do this.

The fuel, the money that
supports this just wasn't there.

It kind of went out because of
all these conditions and things.

And so stepping aside was one to
keep it going and lighter financially

while we kind of get through this.

Um, you know, rough season financially
for us, uh, to get on the other side.

And if we can just survive through it,
keep community there glued together going,

which is Michelle is awesome at that.

And frankly, slack community just
kind of goes because we crave it.

We crave that interaction with our
colleagues, um, to get to the other side.

When things start coming back, which
we're already hearing indicators

of, it's a constant frustration.

You and I've shared, uh, that
we need support for media within

WordPress or it's not going to happen.

That's just a fact.

So we need these to come back.

We need those budgets to come back.

The people running those wanted to happen.

It's just.

You know, and I see this
from the other side now.

It's like, okay, we got to make it happen.

Um as best we can And so that was that
all played into it and also my personal

journey It was time for me to kind of
take the hat off not be the operator

of that Let somebody else that has
energy like michelle run it and get

through this patch And start to try to
build build on to what we were doing

Matt: yeah, there's, um, an
interesting demographic I, I, uh,

posted about this earlier this year
as like a, um, so what I'm looking

for, uh, uh, forecast for the year.

Uh, what do you, what do you, I forget
the word is escaping me right now.

Uh, you know, I made prediction, I
made a prediction, uh, in the start

of January, uh, that, you know,
we're going to see a new type of,

uh, person enter the community.

And I've been talking about this a
little bit on the, on the show is, um,

you know, younger, yes, but also coming
into the space, like, I only know page

builders, so really, I'm here to work
with WordPress, but I don't, I don't

love WordPress, like, I'm not in love
with WordPress, which might be a good

thing, uh, for some of us to realize, uh,
but like, they don't know the community

because they came in from a whole other
thing, and they, they were never, like,

at a WordCamp Trying to figure out
how to do the thing with WordPress.

Like we were 15 years ago, right?

Cause it was all, it's all,
it's all been solved, right?

It's either solved in the page builder or
WordPress itself has already solved it.

So they're not hacking away in
the hallways, sitting on the floor

with me, you Pippin, like all these
people, like from back in the day,

like trying to do this thing with Edd
and you know, all this other stuff.

Um, so there's a whole new
type of person I'm curious.

One maybe from the A2 perspective, but
also from the post status perspective.

There's like a whole set of folks Which
I'll put in a box in Facebook groups and

then those from from what I gather none
of them know few of them know about Post

status slack like it's two different
two totally different worlds two totally

different types of folks I've been
trying to spend some time Getting to know

that crowd and what they're after and
what they're looking for in WordPress.

From what I can tell, a lot of them are
looking more from like the business side.

Like, Hey, this is just a tool for us.

We like it.

We like the tool that we're using.

We're actually super passionate about this
tool that we think it's the best tool.

Um, but we're also really here
to just like grow a business.

I'll go to a WordCamp, but I'm not,
I'm not in it like you guys are.

Do you feel that?

And do you have ways that maybe you'll
try to like bridge that gap if at all

with either post status or work at A2?

Cory: Well, for both posts and they too,
we felt like we're talking about what I,

well, I think it was in the bubble, the
people that really are passionate about

WordPress, the community, and it is.

So almost like an awesome tool to build
web projects, but there's so many people

out there that aren't in the boat.

They're not going to come to work at,
you know, but they do use it as a tool.

Maybe it's not the only
tool, but it's a tool.

And I think there's so many more.

Of those out there.

Um, they just haven't crossed the
threshold and gone into a WordCamp

or shown up at a post editor or,
you know, they may be reading and

listening to WP minute, but kind
of as, okay, that was one tool.

Like at WordCamp Canada, there was
a couple of WordPressers now who

have now shifted into Drupal and
you go, those are great tools too.

You know?

So I agree.

I think it's like the WordCamp DePaul
organizers going to the colleges and.

People interested in tech going,
here's a thing called WordPress.

It is a tool that they can use and
perhaps make a great career out of it.

But I think you're right.

Like we need to go outside of the bubble
and also realize they're not going

to get a tattoo of WordPress on, you
know, on themselves, like, but they do

believe in the core philosophies, but
they're not going to say it's just this.

And there's so much opportunity out
there and people doing really good work.

So connecting with that from A2 and
POSETS for sure, our focus, because, you

know, like this, this camp particularly
is like, you do see a lot of the people

that are there and they're there because
they really believe and care about it.

Um, but there's so many
more that go awesome tool.

Cool.

You know, let's get out there.

That's just the harder work to
reach them, but we need to do that.

And we are trying to do that
in both those companies.

Matt: Last question.

Um, one of the things I've been trying
to unpack and I can't like, I'm really

struggling with like trying to articulate
this and maybe you can help me.

Um, You're really trying to explain
like the value of open source

and open source WordPress, right?

To not, to be critical of
WordPress, but not to like

hinder it from thriving, right?

Like you don't, you don't want
to say it's, it's, it's terrible.

You can say it's terrible, but you don't
want to believe that it's terrible, right?

If that's your feeling, because
it's only going to detract from

the overall, um, Bigger picture
and the longevity of the project.

What I've been trying to say is it's okay
to, and this is the part I'm struggling

with and I don't know how to frame it.

Maybe you can help me like
to, to take from WordPress.

Like you can also take from WordPress,
meaning just use it and, and don't

get consumed by it where you are.

Uh, either get burned out or get
hindered to the point where like

you, you just want to throw your
hands up and just say, um, it's not

worth it for me to even care anymore.

So it's okay to take from WordPress,
whether it's a service, you start

a services business, you are
creating a plugin and selling

it, you're doing courses, you're
doing content, whatever it is.

It's okay to, to absorb that because
that's what everyone else is doing, but

at the same time, don't forget to invest.

In WordPress, I'm having a hard time
like packaging that as like a, as a

statement, but that's the way I feel like
some people, it's okay, man, like it's,

it's whenever you give back and, and, and
contribute back to this project, however

it is that you're doing it, whether
you're a cheerleader or a core developer.

As long as you're doing that.

And then it's okay to say, I'm
also profiting from this too.

I'm taking my piece of this too, because
that's what everyone else is doing.

And I'm not going to worry so much that
I'm the one that's getting left behind.

That's what I struggle with.

As you can tell, I don't know if you
have a different thought on that.

Cory: I fully agree with you like the
overwhelming majority of people that use

WordPress Probably don't get back in the
sense that we all think Somehow we should

but I think that's a misnomer and I think
what you're saying is You know, come in.

It's okay.

You should.

That's why we did this.

That's what we all have contributed to it.

Continue to use it, you
know, however you can.

There's very simple guidelines, which is
if you, you know, with the GPL and things,

but otherwise, like, that's the purpose.

That's why people contribute.

Um, the other thing I would probably
add to yours and say, I wholly agree

with all of it is, Okay, when you get
going, and you're using it, and you're

seeing the power, and you're thankful
that it's here, that you got to do

that, then, not that you have to pay
this huge cosmic debt back, but like,

It's as simple giving back contributing
is simple as helping somebody else or

mentioning WordPress is a great tool.

The tool, maybe even if you feel
that passionate about it and

being an evangelist for WordPress.

I mean, I think we get
because it's a code project.

Think if and I have felt this if I can't.

Contribute code to it.

I'm not giving back.

That's a misnomer, but I've
held that for a long time.

I'm not a developer, all this stuff, but
could I talk about it, share it, talk,

you know, use them a business to say,
by the way, we built this on WordPress.

And part of this is it's
free and open source.

And so many people, the 40 plus
percent of the internet have built it.

Built on this because of thousands
and thousands of people over 21

years have contributed to it.

That's contributing that's
evangelizing WordPress to others.

And like this person that organized
in Nepal, helping train, whatever

those strengths gifts are that you
have using that for the benefit

of open source thousand percent.

And I think we've probably do it
internally, but make it bigger debt

than we think it is, where it's just
should come out of thankfulness.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, Cory

Cory: your own strength.

Matt: Cory Miller, the, the, the
guy that I talk to publicly and

record podcasts with publicly, uh,
is the same conversations he and I

have behind the scenes with just a
fewer expletives, fewer expletives,

A2, A2 hosting post status,
uh, any special links you want

folks to go and visit for either
A2 hosting or post status?

Cory: think those are great.

You can always find me.

I try to be as open and approachable as
possible, but, um, yeah, you can find

me on Twitter and LinkedIn, all those
things too, but, um, both those things

is like you said, belief and care.

So if you're interested in something
we've talked about and what I'm

doing and I can help you, I'm here.

Matt: Awesome.

Thanks a lot, Cory.

Thanks for hanging out today.

Cory: Thanks brother.