The WP Minute+

Toby: Hello, welcome to whose web
agency is this Anyway, starring

Kurt Van Onin and myself, Toby Kres.

let's get right into it here.

let's get right into it.

Robert Devore asked a
really interesting question.

He said, how do you choose
which ventures to pursue, pursue

outside of the services work?

If any.

And then he said, for instance,
are you focusing time only

on marketing the services?

Are you packaging up the services
into different bite size chunks?

Or are you building related products that
can be resold, like themes and plugins?

How are you, diversifying your ventures?

Kurt?

Kurt: First off, I wanna acknowledge
Robert Devore and his genius.

apparently he can just kick out, plugins
like butter I you, this guy, right?

I'm, I'm not in the product space.

I, I, I take that back.

I am in the product space,
but not in that way.

so a lot of what we do at Ana Nomas
is, let's say I work with a consultant.

I do some needs assessment.

I come up with a package
for that consultant.

So I know that they're
gonna want A-C-R-M-A form

tool, an appointment setter.

Maybe they want an online, you
know, support, ticket program,

maybe, And then maybe they want some
online courses for coaching, right?

Maybe they want some private coaching
a like a lifter, LMS kind of package.

So let's see.

We do that needs assessment.

We kind of make that shopping
list and then we, we build it, we

configure it, and we make it work.

Typically what I do at that point
is I take a snapshot of that

website and it's set up and then.

That becomes a productized service or
a productized item that we can sell

to the next consultation company or to
the next thing, because realistically,

the hard work was figuring out.

Based on your use case, this is the
setup that we believe is gonna work

best for you and your use case.

So then when you come along, a customer
that has that similar thing, if you have

created that as a blueprint, a snapshot,
a help me, they have a thing for that.

They call, it's not, it would not
template tenancy, full tenancy sites.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: multi-tenancy sites.

It's like that concept.

And so now the next consultant comes
along and they go, let me guess.

You know you're gonna want a CRM, an
appointment tool or this or that, and

they go, oh, that sounds wonderful.

And I say, great, I'll see you on Friday
and we'll upload your logo, your headings,

your content, we'll package your pictures
into these, into these placeholder

spaces, and they're ready to go.

And it's kind of like a cool quick
launch little package that I think

the customer sees as being valuable.

'cause it's quickly delivered, but we
don't have to remake the wheel each time.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

And you can potentially charge the
same amount, whatever, you know?

well,

Kurt: that's the weird part.

Mm-hmm.

So often you actually end
up charging more, right?

Because you, because you're offering
it as a ready to go service, and

you're able to put more of your
development time into customizing that

user experience based on the content.

And I think if we're honest, I
think the copy and the content in

most cases is more important than
the actual structure and billing.

Toby: Yeah.

I always, the first question,
one of the first questions I

always ask when, you know, leads
come in, I'm always like, what?

Basically it's an iteration
of the question, like, how

are you making money here?

Like, do you wanna talk about
technology or making money?

'cause they're not necessarily
connected, like, yeah.

Kurt: it, it's interesting when, when I
read Robert's question, I instantly have

like this, this negative feeling that
comes from it and it's, my specialty is

in the membership and learning space.

So everybody that's in this membership and
learning space makes this leap, this huge

leap that they go well, and then how do
I convert this into a mobile application?

And it's like you don't even
have a single paid user yet.

Why are you thinking about a $30,000
investment to make a mobile application

na: Uhhuh?

Kurt: And why are we having
the, the conversation?

Yeah.

Like, I'm not your dude for this.

Like, let's, let's, let's build
you a business first and then let's

worry about the icing on the cake.

Toby: Yeah.

Kurt: One thing that, what you said,

Toby: it's a, so Robert, it
it, it addresses Robert's

question, but it's kind of like.

A different way to address it, which
is like, you don't have to like,

change your business to diversify
your business or to make more money.

You can just do it differently,
like in a blueprinted way.

Like, like do more work with
less time, charge the same or

more, you know, build the, like.

I always think the mighty Moe.

what we're best at is
responding to emails.

And answering the phone like, we're better
than anybody else I know in town at that.

Yeah.

And that's what I tell people who come in.

I'm like, you know, we've been
doing it for 18 years, but like

we're gonna respond to every email
you send within a business day.

And they're all like,
oh, that sounds great.

You know, like.

Kurt: So, ano nomas, the catch
line to Ano Nomas underneath it

says Getting it done yesterday.

but it's got an asterisk in there 'cause
it means getting shit done yesterday.

And I came from that frustration.

It was, as a corporate
director, you know, in, in the.

Corporate enterprise environment.

I was the guy that had to call
agencies and be like, Hey, we need

to make a change to the, to the
wording in that, in the heading.

And they'd be like, well, we can
pencil in from Thursday after next.

Right.

And I'm like, we're just
gonna change three words.

Mm-hmm.

Well, you know, next Thursday after next,
so 14 days from now we'll be able to, and

I was like, this doesn't make any sense.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: I know it takes 10 seconds, so why?

Why am I waiting 14 days?

na: Yep.

Kurt: And, and so we, at Ana Nomas,
we became very focused on we honor the

budget and we honor the calendar, right?

We've never gone up past our deadline
and we've never gone over budget

and ask clients for more money.

It's just, I mean, if they change the
scope of work, they change the scope

of work, but it, it's to your point,
you know, answer the phone, answer

the emails, be there for the client.

and oddly enough, that is
really, really rare in our space.

Yeah,

Toby: and it's, I see it as like, you
know, for all y'all out there looking to

make more money, do a better job of that.

You'll keep people around
longer, sell more products.

'cause the other thing I notice when I do
that, if I respond quickly, a lot of times

I follow up with what else is going on.

I.

You know, just kind of an open-ended,
like what else is broken that I can

fix and get paid to fix, you know,

Kurt: that the, the upsell opportunity,
like, so I just said we've never asked

people for more money unless they
change the scope of work, and that's.

That's the key phrase.

The sooner you correspond with
somebody, the sooner you answer their

question, the, the sooner you have
the opportunity to say something like,

well, that's really outside the scope
of the original project, but if you

want me to bid that, we certainly can.

And then it's like, boom,
it's, they become Lego blocks.

You just start stacking, you know,
your, your revenue in that vertical

because the customer trusts you.

'cause you do what you
say you're gonna do.

Toby: I think it, it's
particularly hard, for freelancers?

Well, I'll just say when the times when
I've been like basically a solo operator

or the person like managing all the work
and the invoices and doing a lot of the

work, like, it's harder to, to do that,
to like take a step back, be like, first

of all, I remember to ask, but what is
this, this thing you asked me to do?

Yeah.

I could do it in 10 seconds, so
maybe I'll do it for free, but like,

Doesn't have to be done for free.

And it's hard.

The, the further step back I
get, the more I have like someone

else asking that question.

Like, the more money, you know,
it's like it changes the business.

and I guess I just wanted to point that
out for freelancers, like there might

be opportunities that you're just not
seeing because you're too deep in it.

Kurt: there was a huge mental shift
for me from the freelancer mentality

to the agency mentality, and it was
something that I think you could say

it over and over and over and over
again, and it wouldn't make sense

until you actually experienced it.

But if I charged somebody $1,500 to
do something on a website and then I

give it to somebody else in my network
to do that, well, that money's gone.

Like, let's, like, so, so you have
to start thinking like from a, from a

freelancer perspective, you're like,
yeah, I could do that and I could do it

for 500 bucks and have it done by Friday.

Right?

But from an agency perspective,
you have to think to yourself, if I

gotta pay somebody else 500 bucks to
have it done by Friday or Saturday.

Or Monday, then I have to review the
work and then I have to, so that $500

task becomes the 12 or $1,500 task.

And I think a lot of freelancers miss an
opportunity because they could be billing

at more of an agency rate, so that when
they're ready to expand, they already

have the funding in place to handle it.

Toby: Yeah.

Or not, or they're going to the bank
every week and feeling great about it.

I, I think there's, this weird
thing that it's exactly what

you're talking about, but it's like
this, this mentality that happens.

and I, I have these conversations
with freelancers here locally

in Minneapolis and, running
very similar businesses to mine.

But, but I run it more like an agency and
I just notice, like the way we talk about,

it's a little bit, not you and I, but.

When, when I have someone in that
freelancer mentality or mindset, they

have this idea of what fairness is,
and it's a different idea than I have.

Like it's, I, I try to be really
fair, really transparent and honest.

And they're trying to be the
same thing, but their definition

of it is way different.

Usually involves like lower fees
as part of their like definition.

I'm like, why is lower fees part
of a de definition of fairness?

Like, you know,

Kurt: well.

The whole conversation of billing based
on hours is a very foreign conversation

to me at this stage of the game
because, well, let's just face facts.

If I'm in an enterprise,
lifter, LMS Build, I can build

the structure of that website.

You know, I, I should say minutes,
but let's just say I can do

it in less than a day, right?

Whereas the average freelancer that's
doing all kinds of piece work here,

here, here, and here, they might
be on that thing for two weeks,

three weeks, trying to figure out,
tick this box, don't tick that box.

This integration goes here.

This API code goes over there.

But because it's a specialty of
mine, I can do it much more quickly.

So does that mean I do it cheaper?

'cause it takes me less time?

No, it means.

The value I'm bringing to the
table is exponentially greater.

So that value is what you base
the billing on, not the hours.

And I think that there's a lot of
freelancers that still get stuck in

that trading hours for dollars thing,
not realizing that they're getting

better and better at their craft.

That doesn't mean they should
make less and less money.

Yeah, usually getting
better makes you more money.

Toby: Yeah.

And I just filled out an RFP.

It's pretty rare that I do RFPs.

and I was, this was an existing
long-term client and so normally

I wouldn't even do 'em for that.

Like, it was just like an open call
for RFPs and I'm just like, ugh.

but because of our history, I was
like, okay, I'm gonna go for it.

And one thing they asked in there
was, what's your hourly rate?

And I was like.

I don't wanna even, like, this doesn't
even, I've never done hourly work for you.

Why are we talking about hourly?

Like, it's not even like, like I'd
rather bid it out based on Yeah.

'cause what you're saying,
like, if it takes me an hour,

what, who cares what it costs?

Is it a fair rate to you or not?

and that's the other thing about
like, this definition of, so

let's say that's the other thing.

Let's say, the rate is.

there's some ethics to the rate and
that's kind of this, I've seen it time

and again, particularly with freelancers.

Yeah.

I guess like, like everybody, you
could take that ethics to 10 different

people and they're gonna give you a
different number for what fair is and

Kurt: fair is always within
10 or $15 of your hourly rate.

Anything more than that
in this highway robbery.

Right, and anything less than that is
that person's given away their time and

de and devaluing the, industry for all
of us, it it's that perception, right?

It's like if you ask somebody, a salaried
employee, Hey, what, what's a reasonable

salary for this type of position?

They're gonna say somewhere in the range
of 20 or 30 grand of what they're making.

Right.

And then anything over that is highway
robbery and anything less than that,

that person's devaluing the position.

so we just have to recognize
that, you know, the, the money's,

the money, the rate's, the rate.

I try to charge things
based on the value provided.

And so I generally work on a lot
of things that create revenue.

So I think to myself.

Does my client have a, a valid opportunity
to 10 x their investment with us?

So if they spend 10 grand with us,
do they have the ability to convert

this into a hundred thousand dollars?

And if that answer is yes, I'm all in
like, like it's gonna be 10 grand, bro.

And, and it all seems like a lot,
well, you could hire someone with

less experience, could take a
little bit longer to get it done.

I, you know.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: Good luck.

Toby: Yeah, great point.

let's, next question here.

Eric Kovic asks, how do you
think the new WordPress release

schedule impact freelancers?

Did I pronounce his name correctly?

I might have messed it up.

Kovac.

Kurt: I, I'll go with that.

Toby: Kirk Kovac.

Kurt: Sorry.

Toby: Eric

Kurt: Kovac.

Eric Kovac.

Good guy.

do you, do you want to answer first?

'cause my answer's gonna be a,
maybe a little more contrarian.

Toby: Oh, let's hear the, the
contrary view of, whatever, whatever

the non contrary view view is.

Kurt: Well, I, I, so people in
Slack groups and, you know, people

that go to Word Camp and people
that just got back from press comp

and, and, and those people, those
people care what WordPress is doing.

For the first dozen years that Ana Nomas
was in business, I didn't even know

there was a community to WordPress.

And, and so I think in the grand
scheme of things, when we say how does

this impact freelancers, it doesn't.

They don't give a crud.

Like nobody, I shouldn't say nobody,
but there's such a, a high percentage

of people in our space that aren't
connected to our space that, you know,

hopefully some of them find this podcast.

Hopefully some of them go, oh my God, I
didn't even know there was a word Camp.

What's a word?

Camp?

my first word camp was, word Camp
US San Diego three years ago.

and after that, I became an addict.

Like I started going to local word camps
and Zoom word camps and or, WordPress

meetups and, and all kinds of stuff.

But I think in general,
freelancers don't care.

It doesn't matter when the next
thing is released, as long as I

know that my client has a reasonably
updated version on their website.

Toby: Yeah, and I think the old schedule
is what, quarterly and now it's annual.

Is that kind of the idea?

They're saying

Kurt: annual now?

Yeah.

One, one.

One major release a year.

Toby: So here's how I, I, I agree
with everything you said, and

in fact, it probably makes it
more, well, it's a couple things.

A, it makes WordPress more stable
for US developers across the

board, so that's a good thing.

Yeah.

On the downside, if you're charging
for maintenance, there's maybe less

need or less perceived need for your
service, and that could be a downside.

but I don't think, like,
well, I a, however, a.

US developers are barely
thinking about it.

Our clients,

Kurt: like our clients don't even care.

I, they don't, I can
remember it very vividly.

I had a client that we were doing
some, some deep customization

work in WooCommerce for them.

And, this was the job.

This was a job you sell and you wish
that you didn't like, like, you know, we.

From an agency perspective,
I was like, why?

Why do they want me to do this?

Like, you don't, you don't have the
bandwidth, you don't have the users

you're asking for every, they wanted
like Pixel perfect recreations from

a Figma file to this WooCommerce
reimagined internet experience.

And they're great people.

I love the client.

I just think what we were
doing was a little weird.

And and I would tell 'em, I think
what you're doing is a little weird.

But that's what they wanted.

They were very resolute.

This is what we want.

And, As we were building that
out, that's when the whole WP

Engine WooCommerce thing happened.

And I got nervous 'cause they were on
WP Engine and so I, I finally asked

him on a call, I said, Hey, have you
been getting emails from W WP Engine?

And he goes, oh yeah, I see that
stuff, but the website works.

Like as long as the website keeps
coming up, we really don't care.

And I was like, okay.

And I was like, so at the level that
this customer was having me do all

this custom stuff, and I thought that
they were really, had their finger on

the pulse of things, they didn't care.

Yeah.

You know, and, and so we think, we
think these horrible things because

we're so close in the community.

Mm-hmm.

You know, with, with the WP Minute folks
and Matt Maderis and all these folks, we

think, oh my goodness, the sky is falling.

Matt had a bad morning.

You know, or, or it's like, and then.

in the reality of it, nobody cares.

Right?

Everyone's disconnected
and it doesn't matter.

And you know what, it's
just Monday morning.

Toby: Yeah.

You know?

And the other thing, like, you know
what, the only times our clients

know or think there's a problem.

Is when the sales aren't happening.

And I don't even mean e-commerce.

I mean like they run a lawyer
shop and they're like, oh,

we, we need another client.

Yeah, our, and they're like,
what's wrong with the website?

But as soon as that client comes in,
they're like, we'll see you next year.

Like,

Kurt: yeah, that.

I work a lot in the PowerPort space, and
so a lot of, web leads come in, right?

And I can't tell you, so I should say I
train people in the PowerPort space, so I

I'm not necessarily making their websites.

And so part of the training is okay,
you need to have a hundred percent.

Lead follow up.

You need to be able to demonstrate
to me that you follow up with a

hundred percent of your leads.

You can do this by showing me a
screen capture or a report or whatever

your CRM gives you for these leads.

I gotta tell you, Toby, it's at least
75% of the time business owners with

millions invested in their business.

I'm not talking small shops,
millions invested in their business.

They pull up a report and they
go, well, we haven't had any

leads in like three months.

Right.

You know, through our website of like, so
you think your website's working right?

Like, what else on your
website's not working?

And then I do a website audit with them
and I go, you, I'm not your web guy.

Like if, if you, you need to take this
back to who your contract is with.

na: Mm-hmm.

I think, I wish and, and think, and
I don't know, like I would rather

be having those conversations
with, maybe it's just my, like.

where I'm at as a human or whatever.

Like I wish people would just call
and say, how can I make more money?

I'd be like, okay, my expertise is
website and some marketing stuff.

Let's talk about how we
can make you more money.

And you know, it's like a very
different conversation than like

them coming to me saying, build me
a website because I need more leads.

Or you know, like,

Kurt: yeah, well.

And here's, here's a weird one,
and it's just, and I, and I

talk about this a a lot, right?

Your clients do, they ask for a
lot of like weird customizations

or modifications that, and, and
in your mind you're like, I.

Where, where did that request come from?

Like what in your, what in your
UX experience makes you think

that that's a requirement for your
website to make that more money?

That, that, like what, where
did you get the idea that

that's your conversion linchpin?

Right.

because I'm, I'm talking to clients
that if they were in Kajabi.

They wouldn't have that option.

Mm-hmm.

If they were in Podia, they
wouldn't have that option.

If they were in Shopify, they
wouldn't have that option.

But because we're in WordPress and
we can do anything we want with

WordPress, they're like, that needs
to be like a pink camouflage button.

Right.

And that, and that needs to be purple.

And you're going, I, what are we doing?

Toby: Yeah, we doing it

Kurt: because we can.

Toby: And, and WooCommerce is the worst
for this feature creep, ridiculousness.

Like, you know, they, they
see the WI don't know.

I don't know where they get
these ideas because I don't

think they're on woocommerce.com.

I think.

I don't, but they're like, can we do this?

Can we, I don't know.

They're on Amazon and they're
on some, I saw this thing.

Can we do this?

I'm always like, slow down.

Like, how about we like

Kurt: sell something?

Like, but then you search on
WooCommerce and they have an add-on

for 1 99 a year that does just

Toby: that, right?

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

And well, and it's guaranteed to
break in three months when they

up something updates, you know?

Kurt: So when you get those requests
from an agency perspective, do

you look at it like, Hey, here's
another income opportunity and

another vertical for customization?

Or do you.

Put on your consultant hat and, and
be like that, that would cost you

this much more to implement that.

What's your reasoning and
is there something else we

should do with that budget?

Toby: Usually it's the latter actually,
and honestly, I feel some responsibility

as like a guide through the wilderness.

Yeah.

I have friends who run very successful
agencies in town who don't they, and

they just say, yes, we can do that.

Thank you for asking,
here's what it's gonna cost.

And I don't judge, like,
I'm just like, it's not me.

I, I don't, I'd rather have the
conversation about the why and, but

honestly, I go, if they're coming
to you asking, let's say it's a bad

question, that's, and in reality what
it is, a lot of times a bad question.

They're probably not coming, going
like, well, I, I need more money.

What do you think I should do?

I have this e-commerce shop.

Instead they're like, I saw this feature.

Build me this.

And like one option is for you
to say, sure, I can build that.

I know there's a WooCommerce extension
and it'll be X amount of dollars.

but I will say like at a certain point,
if I'm feeling a lot of pushback, my

answer just becomes, yes, I can do it.

Sure, here's the cost.

Like, and it usually, I know right away
if in the conversation if they're gonna

like be open to the conversation or not.

Kurt: How about you?

Someone asked for something.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I'm glad to hear that
we're on similar pages.

Mm-hmm.

I, I used to be in the, in the
framework of, well, if they asked

for it, it must be important, so I'm
gonna do what I can to provide it.

but over the years, I've
really begun to adopt this.

They ask for it.

That doesn't make it important.

We need, we need to figure
out where this is coming from.

'cause if I just say yes to
everything and I chase my tail

around, I've found that what happens
is I might make more money upfront.

I.

But the relationship gets
damaged because six months later

they go, I don't understand.

We've done all this work and we've paid
you extra for extra things, and we're

still not making money with this website.

And then I gotta go
like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Like how do you think that this
website work equals like a return?

Like Right.

What?

Like what have you done
that actually makes money?

because of my experience
in the automotive industry.

I'm very keenly aware of the, the
friends and family features, right?

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: if you wonder why car dealerships
always hire new salespeople, it's

'cause new salespeople always come
in and sell 10 cars right away.

I.

And then they run out of friends
and family to buy new cars.

Right.

Uhhuh.

And then the struggle starts.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And, and that's what you see
with a lot of membership and learning

websites is, you know, you've got a
list of 20 or 25 people that are gonna

support you and, and, and buy, you
know, an access plan even at a discount.

But it gets some revenue going
and you get your hopes up.

But if you don't market, if you
don't do anything, if you don't

take any acti, if you don't join the
entrepreneur network in your town, or

you know, if you don't do anything.

The website doesn't feed itself,
you know, it needs to be fed.

Toby: I also think people
get stuck in marketing.

probably partly 'cause that's
like what our culture glamorizes

like Mad Men and Instagram.

Like it's all about
marketing and advertising.

Yeah.

But to me, like, I always
think like, start with sales.

Go find someone to buy this.

Don't leave until they buy it.

That sort of like mentality like, Because
you really don't need a whole lot of

marketing or advertising to do that.

But that's like, to me, the hard part,
and this is like an example of features.

People want automated sales processes.

Yeah.

Be it like an e-commerce
site or membership site.

The Mighty MO has no automated sales
stuff and like it's, 'cause I just like.

I don't think it's like an
infrastructure that's worth supporting.

Like, like I'd rather like go out,
you know, like talk to someone,

get their credit card, ring it
up on a re, you know, like done.

Next one.

You know,

Kurt: I think we may mention
this on our original show.

I think we did, but it's amazing.

What people assume or believe is happening
at what they perceive to be larger or

more experienced enterprises like I know,
because I know people in the space, they

make these assumptions that the plugins
they sell are all automated and that

the access is automated and that the
license key is automated and that all,

you know, you can go from this package to
this package and it's automatically, you

know, How they figure that like you paid
half the month and now half the month.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, prorations
and all these things, right?

no.

Like most cases that doesn't exist.

But for some reason, people
that are new to the marketplace

assume that all that is in place.

na: Right?

And,

Kurt: and so they're like,
well, I must have that.

And you're like, Uhhuh.

I know people doing $2 million
a year that don't have that.

Right?

So why is this so important?

Like, let's just get
you selling some stuff.

Yeah.

I remember back in the day, I met a
guy who started a separate, you know,

I'm, I'm going to get a side gig going.

And his side gig was selling training on,
Google Business, like Yelp ads, right?

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: Helping businesses,
Optimize their Yelp presence.

Talk about like not, not technical.

Right.

He would, he would go to the business and
he's like, here's what we can do for you.

Right?

We'll take your pictures,
we'll change your blurbs.

We'll optimize your, your heading and your
setting and we'll take care of answering

comments for the first three months.

And your startup for this is gonna be
like $4,000 or something like that.

And it's amazing.

'cause these businesses were
like, oh, well you need, you

need to have a good Yelp.

You know, yeah, we're grand.

And it was, and he, and if he
was in a local region and he

got a hundred people to do that.

That turned into decent money, right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And, and in the real, in the real
thing, like what you and I think

of as, as work as an agency.

So what was the real work?

The work was the sales.

Yes.

The work was going door to door
and telling people what you would

do and how much it would cost and
getting them to give you that check.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: But the actual work.

Was like, yeah.

So I walk around the building,
I take a few pictures.

Right.

I put up a couple Google alerts.

Yeah.

Toby: When my alert pings, I respond.

Yeah.

Well, and the, you know, it's the
work when you can outsource it.

You can't outsource sales as
easily as you can when Dev.

Kurt: Yeah.

Yeah.

So, there, there's,
there's big chunks of that.

I have projects, quite honestly,
that I think are awesome.

I think they're awesome, but
their sales have not been high.

And it's because the hard work is
the, the hard work is the selling.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Well, and, and you could, extrapolate
this a bit with communities.

The hard work of building
an online community isn't

building the platform, right?

No,

Kurt: no.

It's getting What's the hard work?

Yeah.

And a lot of people make this mistake.

They'll, they assume, and this is
bad because I'm in this space, this

is how I make someone my money.

But people have a thriving Facebook page,
or they'll have a thriving LinkedIn group,

or they'll have a thriving Instagram
following, and they make an assumption

that, Hey, as soon as I promote my own
URL, everyone's just gonna come in there.

I've got 80,000 people over here.

So if I just charge a dollar a person,
I'm gonna have $80,000 a month coming into

this thing, and they start doing this.

This numbers game in their
head and getting optimistic.

And what they fail to realize is
getting people to migrate from one

channel to another is one of the
most painful things in the world.

Facebook was censoring people like crazy
during the pandemic, and people were

trying to get off of Facebook and just
migrate them over to a LinkedIn group.

Nobody was going.

Nobody.

Toby: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know what's interesting about that?

So we have, we're in the
WordPress community, so we have

different perspectives maybe.

But like, why would you
leave Facebook for LinkedIn?

Like, why, why would you, I want LinkedIn.

Why wouldn't you be like,
I'm gonna self-host this.

That way this'll never happen

Kurt: again.

Oh, well and that what, that
becomes part of that, right?

So it's, if you can't get people to
go from Facebook to LinkedIn, then

it's a really far stretch to think
they're gonna go to your personal URL.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: To me, it's the same conversation
with the mobile application.

I.

I went to a motorcycle expo in Las
Vegas and I am a huge motorcycle nut.

So I went to AIM Expo and I
was a, a speaker at the event.

I was a paid speaker to speak there, but
when you got to the event, it said, oh,

you gotta put this app in your phone.

And you know, to know the speaker
schedule and where the vendor

booths are and all these things.

I'm like, I'm not putting
another app in my phone.

No, it's stupid because then you're
gonna say, oh, you, you get access to my

contacts and my pictures and my phone.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Videos and my, forget this, I'm
not putting this crap in my phone.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: But that's where
people are at nowadays.

Mm-hmm.

Like most people, like, I'm not
putting another app on my phone.

Yep.

So if you think your business won't
succeed without a mobile app, I need you

to rethink what your business is then.

Toby: Well, I think too, like.

The whole idea that, and this is common
I think in my experience, is that like

people assume the app is the solution.

And like, just to reiterate what we've
been talking about, the solution is to

sell more, not to build an app, whatever.

It doesn't matter where the community is.

You still gotta convince someone.

I always think like get
'em to join for a dollar.

It can be a dollar a month, whatever.

But once you can get them to pay you once.

You can get them to pay you again,
like the, at least that barrier to

the second payment goes extremely far
down like where however tall it was.

Now it's way further EAs way easier
once you get that $1 transaction.

You, you just reminded me
of that guy from American

Kurt: Pickers, the TV show.

Toby: Oh, I,

Kurt: I haven't seen that.

What, what's the deal?

two dudes, it's been around forever.

Two dudes drive around the country
and they go and they, they look at

like antiques or like junkyards,
and then he calls it, you know, oh,

I gotta break the ice, you know,
so he says, Hey, how much for that

rusty fender up there on the shelf?

And the guy goes, well,
I hate to let it go.

I could let it go for $50.

He goes, mm-hmm.

How about if I gave you 30?

Would you take 30 for that fender?

And he goes.

Yeah, I'll take the 30 bucks, whatever.

And then he goes, ah, I broke the ice.

Yeah.

Oh, that's great.

Now he, because now he's looking
like, you know, for a motorcycle

or for a car or whatever, right.

Yeah.

So, oh, that's

Toby: funny.

what do you do when
you're feeling burned out?

Busy.

And the burnout's probably
too broad a term, but like,

I had a long, I have a lot.

I just moved my house.

I have like a stack of boxes over
here that's a mile high and I'm

feeling anxious the moment I wake up.

And so like, how do you, and you can
imagine, let's say you're run, trying

to make a go of being a freelancer.

Maybe you've been doing it a year and
you're like, Ugh, I need more money.

Like, like how do you manage
that expectation internally and

how do you, what do you, yeah.

What do you, how do you manage that like.

Kurt: It took me a long time.

Toby, that's a good question.

It took me a long time to get over it.

'cause I used to think more hours.

More hours.

More hours.

Right?

I used to think, oh, if I just, I just put
in more time, I'm gonna get more money.

and it wasn't until fairly recent
and, you know, late in life that I

realized that's not the equation.

That's not how it works.

And so, I used to work in the
car biz 13, 14 hours a day,

standing on concrete selling.

So I got that really hard work
ethic kind of ingrained into me.

And then in this space, that's
not how this works at all.

So if I find myself burnt out, stressed
out, staring at the computer and

nothing's happening, those moments,
if it's a nice day, I'll just put

on a pair of padded shorts and go
out and and do a 30 mile bike ride.

If I do that physical something
physical, something removed,

it recharges me mentally.

So then when I come back, you know, we
had talked earlier in the show, right?

So sometimes there's things that
might take someone else a week to do.

I can knock it out in an afternoon
'cause it's in my sweet spot.

And so just like the
book Strength Finders.

You know, I double down on my strengths.

I go out, I bicycle, I come
back, I'm mentally centered.

I hit that keyboard and knock out a week's
worth of work in an afternoon and go, man,

I should go bicycling more often, right?

Mm-hmm.

sometimes you look at your
schedule and you see meetings.

I just had a conversation with a, I'm on
a board of directors, kind of an advisor's

board, and we are meeting today and I
was very direct and surprisingly others

were on the call that was like, look.

Time is getting very valuable, right?

So either 'cause I like to add value
to others where I can, I wouldn't do

shows like this if I didn't, right?

So am I, am I adding a lot
of value to other people?

Are other people adding a ton of
value to me that I just can't miss?

Or is it putting a bunch of
money in my bank account?

And if it's not one of those
three things, it needs to go.

And so I was doing the, I don't know if
you wanna call it the Gary Vaynerchuk

kind of thing, but I was making
appointments with people and giving away

time and give away the best for free
and all that work will come in and maybe

that's a great way to get launched.

I.

But if you've already been launched
and now your time is, is, has grown

in that value category, you can't
keep giving it away like that.

So you're either doing something
'cause you really enjoy adding

value to that other person, or that
person's adding extraordinary value

to you or you're making money.

It's gotta be one of those
three things or it's gotta go

Toby: that.

I like that a lot.

I was having a conversation with a
friend of mine who is a brilliant coder.

Like, in person, just
like, just really nice guy.

Can't find a job for whatever reason.

Yeah.

But brilliant.

a great coder, you know?

anyway, we're conversing and he's like,
yeah, I just had a meeting, with a

guy who's building a business in town
and we spent, to me it sounded like

he spent more than an hour at a coffee
shop giving the best information.

Like Yeah, like you're saying,
like the vanerchuk thing.

and I told him, and he's, he
comes from more, he, he worked at

an agency for the last 15 years
or whatever, and I think like.

For him and I, this is what I was
trying to share with him that I

don't know how successful I was,
but I was like that next meeting you

have, he needs to pay you five grand.

Not for the meeting, but
you have to have a contract.

Yeah.

Worth at least five grand
to take the next meeting.

And you can have a quick
phone call and sort that out.

But like, I think that's very foreign to
a lot of people who are getting started

in the agency and freelancing world.

Like

Kurt: Yeah.

Toby: That like.

Yeah.

it's o like, it's okay to give a
little bit away, but like at some

point you gotta ask for real money.

Yeah, exactly.

Kurt: And, and I think about how
many people did I give my best to?

Over and over and over.

'cause 'cause when you're
young, when you're a freelancer,

you're just getting started.

And when I say young, maybe you left
corporate and you started your own thing,

but you're 60 years old, you still,
you still, you're young in the space.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And so you're like, well, if
I just keep adding enough value,

sooner or later they'll see the
value and they'll offer me something.

Mm-hmm.

They're not, they're not
gonna make an offer unless you

tell 'em what the value is.

Yep.

There's a thing.

Toby: this is, that's why on YouTube.

You hear over and over
again like, and subscribe.

Like, and subscribe.

And you're like, I've heard it.

But if they don't ask,
people, don't do it.

na: Yep.

Toby: Like, you gotta ask, I guess maybe
that's the lesson, ask for the money

and I would say ask before the first co.

Before the first.

Definitely.

Before the first in person.

and, and that's another thing, like I go.

Let's see if you can get 'em on the hook
for one hour at your hourly rate because

they've given you your, their credit card.

It, that next sale is way easier once
you have their credit card and you've

Kurt: billed them for that.

You know, when, when I was the publication
and, and training manager at Suzuki, I

had a guy that worked for me and, and
I, I would consider us friends now.

His name's Bill.

But when I, when I first started
working there, he annoyed the live

in Crut outta me all the time.

'cause whenever we would,
whenever I'd say, oh, here's

a new task that we have to do.

He'd say, well, I'm gonna want
this, this, this, this, and this.

You know?

And I'd be like, why?

Why?

How come every time I give you something
to do, you're asking me for something

like, you're supposed to work for me?

And he would just go, well, if you
don't ask for cake, you don't get cake.

And I was like, ah.

But after like six months of that,
it got to be where like, like he

would start asking, I'd go, whatever.

How much cake do you need for this?

You know, how much cake
do you need for this?

But he would say, if you don't
ask for cake, you don't get cake.

Yeah.

Toby: Yeah.

And yeah.

And I think like, well, so yeah.

And that's the thing, like you don't
know if somebody has cake to give you

until you ask for their credit card.

Like as a freelancer.

Kurt: Yeah.

And.

As a freelancer, I was really surprised at
how many people I donated my time to that

didn't have the funding, didn't have the,
the methodology to get to the funding.

They were, they were more lost than I was.

But there I was in good faith trying to
give them this, this good information.

And then I, I realized
if I'm gonna do that.

It can't be in a one-to-one
scenario anymore.

It needs to be in a one-to-many situation.

So it needs to be in a podcast environment
or a mastermind or something like

that where the chances of somebody
coming with funding or ability

is, is higher to be in that group.

But if you're doing everything one-to-one,
it's very, very difficult to get your

hooks into something and, and turn
something into a success because, And,

and we don't know who our audience is yet.

This is just our second episode, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I don't know what, I don't know
who needs to hear this magic, right?

Right.

But it really is like,
sales is a numbers game.

Uhhuh, you're gonna have to try
with so many people before you

get any kind of positives back.

na: Mm-hmm.

And

Kurt: so if you limit yourself
consistently to a one-to-one thing as

opposed to a one to many, you're gonna end
up missing out on a lot of opportunities.

Toby: Yeah.

One thing, you know, I think for many
years, even when I started, Sale.

I, I did not like sales.

Like I was very like, it's gross.

It's like unethical, whatever.

You know, like every sleazeball idea that
our culture kind of associates with sales.

'cause like every stupid comedy
has some sleazy sales guy in it.

And it's become, like, for me it was
like, yeah, hey, I'll call you tomorrow.

but once I got over that and it took
years, I started reading books about

sales and it's a science and an art,
like everything, and I really enjoy

sales now, like, and it's just me.

It's not like I'm reporting sales
figures to the boss, but like if

I can get someone on the phone and
close it, I'm like, yes, I closed it.

And like I get excited anytime
I get a cold call or like, we'll

call it a warm call, but someone's
like, Hey, do you do WordPress?

I love it.

'cause for me it's like this
internal competition to like close

it and I'll, I will close it.

Pretty much any reasonable number,

Kurt: you know.

That's hilarious.

When we were at, when we were at that
word camp in San Diego, I had just done

some sales training and, and one of those.

one of those catchphrases from the sales
training was, Hey, I don't know if this

is for you or not, but hey, just for
fun, why don't you try this real quick?

Right?

Yeah.

And so, so it's like that disarming thing.

Love it.

So Lifter had these
cards to give out, right?

Like, so you could try get your own
demo site or something like that, Uhhuh.

And so, Yeah, all of us were at the
table and somebody came by and I, and I

just said, Hey, I don't know if this is
for you or not, but it, Hey, just for

fun, why don't you take this card, try
a demo site, see if you like it or not.

And the guy's like, oh, thanks so much.

It's great off you went.

Right?

And, and, Chris and Tom and, and, Emily,
they, they were all like, what was that

like, like Uhhuh, what just happened?

I go, oh, I'll do it again.

Watch.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

It again, and the same response.

And they were like, how?

We've been standing here and no
one's taking the cards and now

you're just, everyone's coming.

Right.

I go, let's do it a third time.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And so that became our
thing for the whole Word Camp.

And so the after hours parties, I
mean, it became like a contest to see

who could give out the most amount.

Yeah.

We had so much fun.

So much fun.

But sales works if you make it fun.

Toby: Yeah.

Yeah.

And and, and it's the only
way to make it, I don't know.

I guess there's other ways, but like,
if you're a freelancer and you're trying

to avoid sales, you're gonna have.

I think it's a hurdle
you need to get over.

Kurt: So we're gonna come up on time soon.

Mm-hmm.

So I want to ask what I think is
an important question for mm-hmm.

For people that are listening you, I've
been around, you've been around, so how

much of your week, what percentage of
your week is spent on sales and marketing?

At

Toby: least half of my work hours.

Yep.

Yeah.

I'm just thinking, I do a lot of
project management, so I even have

a project manager who is fantastic.

I don't think there's
a better one out there.

I've seen a lot of project managers and
she's right up there with the great ones.

And even with that, she's managing
90% of the client communication.

almost all the project management.

I still invest a lot of time just
making sure, like I'll do some qa like.

Yeah, like, like, I'll be like, so
Julie and I are my project manager.

We meet twice a week for an hour at
6:00 AM on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

so there's that, but then there's like,
I'm just queuing the work because she

started in January and we have other
teammates who started since then.

And I, I just wanna make sure
that like the designs are up to my

standards or whatever, you know,
like the code's up to my standards.

And, for example, like, we had, we
had one of our teammates delivered

Afin, you know, we said, here's
the description, do the work.

She did the work.

and it wasn't what I had in mind.

And it wasn't just like
an artistic vision.

It was like, this just isn't
good enough, whatever that means.

I couldn't put my finger on it.

So we then we told the client, we're like,
we, this is what we built isn't up to

our standards, so we're gonna rebuild it.

And, then we put another developer
on it and they nailed it.

And so that's an example
of project management.

Yeah.

But then sales, I mean, 25% marketing
and sales and you know, probably

only 5% sales, but I would love
to do a hundred percent sales.

Like,

na: yeah, there was

Toby: a, I saw a job come up
somewhere on a job board, and

it was for a WordPress agency.

They needed a sales guy.

I was like, I would love to do that job.

Like that job sounded fantastic to me.

But how about you, Kurt?

What?

What's your percentage?

Marketing and sales.

Kurt: Marketing and sales.

I'm 65, 70%

na: mm-hmm.

Kurt: Marketing and sales.

And I think what's really interesting,
because we're, we're having like a, you

know, whose agency is this anyway, right?

And, and, and then, but then talking
to freelancers at the same time,

there are certain clients I have
where technically I'm the freelancer.

I'm not even operating as
Manana, NOMAS with that person.

So.

I have two different clients where I
would consider myself the freelancer.

And so I'm not billing that
workout at agency rates.

I'm now, I'm the hourly.

Right now, I'm the guy going,
oh, you know, for this much I

can execute these five tasks.

And, but it's steady work.

It's consistent income and I keep it
because it's the smart thing to do.

Right?

Keep that vertical going.

So that probably takes 15% of my
week, which really only gives me 10

or 15% of my week for actual client
manana, Voss work because I'm actively

marketing promoting, always looking
for that next bigger margin job.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: Right.

And then we have team members
we delegate too, right?

So they, they pick up some
of some of that work too.

But the actual work, like you said,
the project management and stuff

like that, the actual work that I
can do is only 10 or 15% of my time.

I have to delegate the rest because
I have to commit that much to sales

and marketing to keep the funnel full.

na: Mm-hmm.

Kurt: And how create what people think.

The funnel isn't some magic funnel
lytics link out there, that's

just bringing me free clients.

Right.

Right.

And it's, it's the funnel means
the work to build the funnel.

Toby: Yeah.

And what, what, so that's a hundred
percent true definitely at our, let's

say, freelancer agency level, but
I think it's true across the board.

Like Walmart is still
out there advertising.

Kurt: Yeah.

Toby: You know, Target's still the,
you know, name company, Suzuki Motors

still advertising like this is a never,
never ending, what do you call it?

Mouse

Kurt: wheel.

Yeah.

And what's really important is even
if you get those really big jobs or

those really big contracts, you cannot
allow those really big contracts to all

of a sudden become 85% of your week.

Because if you're not continuing
to add to that funnel.

When that work goes through the funnel
and trickles out the bottom, there's

nothing left in the funnel to collect on.

Mm-hmm.

So you either need really, really strong
margins or you need to schedule your work

in a way that says, which gets us back
to the original part of the conversation.

Why does it take till Thursday
after next to change the heading?

Right.

Well, because they're doing other things.

Toby: Yep.

Exactly.

let's end it there.

This is whose web agency is this?

Anyway, with Kurt Nanon, Toby Kres,
hope you'll join us next week.