The WP Minute+

Nathan: I would normally, typically
random, ramble much more than that,

but should we just, shall I just
launch into what we're going to do

Matt: Let's do it.

We can, we can launch together
where it's the multiverse.

The timelines are both crossing.

Nathan: Okay.

In which case, I'm going
to do it like this.

Okay, Matt, who's going first, me or you?

Matt: you know what you can go

Nathan: Okay, I'll go first.

The reason I'm going to have to
ask that question will become

obvious in about three seconds time.

Matt and I are doing a podcast
together, but it's going to end up in

two different podcast clients because
it's going to go into his podcast and

my podcast, so that's kind of weird.

Fairly new.

Matt: Yes, this is new.

And, let me just ask you before we
dive into the WordPress and AI stuff

and the life changing technology.

let's just talk about this
old dog of podcasting.

You've been doing video for as
probably as long as I have, and audio.

Have you been following the recent
trend of the industry at large saying,

Podcasting is now video and not audio.

And what's your gut reaction?

Nathan: My gut reaction is to
firstly make a massive confession.

And that is that the podcast platform
that we're using to record this is

currently not recording the video.

Have I made a giant error?

Matt: but you do live streaming, right?

So do you, you consider the live
stream, the podcast, a podcast as

Nathan: Yeah, I do.

And my, my thing is all audio, I'm all
in with audio and I'll tell you why.

It's a personal preference and it's
based upon my childhood really.

When I was a, when I was a
child, we had, we had audio on

in the kitchen all the time.

And it occurred to me at an early age, I
wasn't told this, but it occurred to me

that I could do things at the same time as
listening to the audio do things, which I.

Wanted to get done, you know,
and it might be chores around the

house or DIY or whatever it may be.

And I've always preferred
the radio to the TV.

I watch very little TV.

But I consume a massive amount of, well,
I don't consume much radio anymore.

It's all podcasts.

So for me, audio all the
way, very conscious decision.

And the only reason that I record my
show on a Monday as a video is because

it's the only real way to do that.

but it gets recycled as a, as a
sort of audio podcast episode.

And that's where, that's
where my audience is.

It's not really on YouTube or anything.

What about you?

Matt: tons of podcasts, audio podcasts.

And, and I do jump between.

YouTube and, you know, my
favorite podcast app, of the week.

And, it's, it's, it's great,
but I will always defend audio.

Because, listen, when it comes to
a, just production level, right, as

you know, it's just so much easier
to, do audio than it is video.

Every second counts, excuse me, the
train is moving above my head right now.

Nathan: I wondered what that

Matt: counts, every second counts, in,
in editing and production and setting up.

So I am, all in with audio.

I recently launched another project
called Our Beloved Medium, which

is an audio documentary slash,
fictional Entertainment series.

And if we did video with that, it
would have been a motion picture.

It would have, we would
have to hire actors, actors.

I mean, it was impossible to
produce what we produce with audio,

which is story, voice, acting,
sound effects, all this stuff.

If we did that in video, we'd
have to go to Hollywood and

ain't got the budget for that.

Nathan: did that go?

Because when we sat down, because
Matt and I sat down at WordCamp US

in Portland, and you were talking
about that becoming a thing.

I think you'd even cast like voice
actors and things like that at the time.

So that's now shipped, is it?

And you've done it.

Matt: yeah, we, we have the first
episode out and this is the episode

that we're sort of using as the,
the carrot on the stick to get,

some sponsorship dollars out there.

RSS.

com, podcast hosting company is the,
is the first one to, to help us out

with a, a nice chunk of, of cash.

Helped us get our first, you
know, pay for our first voice

actor and get this off the ground.

I have a small part in it.

you know, it's the, it's the
last radio station on Earth.

It's, there's this
company called Opus 3000.

It's taking over all
of the, radio stations.

And, we're the last radio station
on Earth broadcasting stories, of

radio importance throughout humanity.

And I'm the general manager of WFYZ.

Yes, it's a, it's a,
it's a bit of a drama.

It's a true documentary as we
interview folks who have covered the

space over the last, you know, 20,
30 years that we can reach out to.

And it's

Nathan: Do you, like, okay, sorry
audience, we're just going to totally

digress here, but this is fun.

would you, would you drop the, the
bits and pieces that you've done

for the last sort of 20 years?

Like the, you know, the tech
based podcasting and all of that.

Is, have you enjoyed it enough to
think, gosh, if I could pivot to

that, that would be where I'd end up?

Matt: because I, you know, I think it's
still the act, you know, of creating art.

It's an art form.

for me, right?

Like, the WP Minute is an art form for me.

it's a way of storytelling, through,
you know, highlighting stuff, that

folks have done in the WordPress space.

And I see it, you know, very similar.

if all of a sudden this took off, and
somebody was like, Hey, you have a book

deal or a movie deal out of this, out of
this, audio story that you put together?

I mean, yes, I could see myself being
like, Hey, you know what, WordPress?

That was fun, but now I'm gonna

Nathan: Yeah, because it, although
I know it's like striking a vein

of gold, if you're a, you know,
a gold miner, the few people that

do do that, it's retireable, it's
retireable amounts of money, isn't it?

You know, you can have one hit and
it'd be the, the end of your working

life if you choose to go that way.

Whereas the enterprise that we're
involved with, tech news, particularly

WordPress tech news, there's a,
there's a small audience for that.

It's a much more of a slog
and you'll never, ever.

Hit that, gold sort of thread of
gold that enabled you to retire.

Gosh, that's really interesting.

I pray for you that that works out.

That'd be great.

Matt: it's not the intent.

it's not the intent by any
stretch of the imagination, right?

The, yeah, you know, the particular
challenge for me with this project, Our

Beloved Medium, is to work, with a, a
former colleague of mine, Stuart Barefoot.

He's the, he is the, the creator
behind this, and he's the editor.

I'm the executive producer.

The challenge for me was I want to
wear the executive producer title.

Like I want to, I want to learn that
space, which is like largely what I

do already for the WP minute, which
is awareness, finance, like getting

sponsorship dollars and, you know,
having some creative angle on, on

the stuff that we're going after.

But the WordPress stuff, you know, I
think maybe another phrase for it is

like, this stuff is a labor of love,
the stuff that you do, the stuff that

I do, this is a very small, you know,
this is a very small me air quotes media

opportunity for folks like you and I,
and I'm sure we, we can get into it, but,

you know, we've seen other folks come
into this space and come and go because

they're approaching it from, Like the
typical, like, I want to be a YouTuber

or I want to be this content creator
that sells courses and do other stuff.

It's that's fine.

It's a fine goal.

but the attention in the
audience for WordPress feels

big, but it's very, very tiny.

I've always said 10, 000 English
speaking humans in the world, maximum

care about the stuff that you and I.

Well, at least the
stuff that I talk about.

I don't want to, I don't
want to cast the 10,

Nathan: No, I think, I think
it's a smaller number for me.

Matt: yeah, yeah, so like that, like,
that's the way that, that I see it.

so you really, like the stuff that, that
you and I do tirelessly doing this and

folks like Ray, folks at WP, Mayor, you
know, these, these folks who haven't

given up on this space, you know, we're
doing it because we love WordPress and,

and that's the, that's the motivation.

Nathan: fascinating though.

Honestly, seriously, I really wish
you the best of luck with that.

When, when you've got it all, you
know, when we finish recording this,

can you send me the links for that?

I want to listen.

Matt: we'll do.

Nathan: Okay.

So.

It's Matt Madeiros, it's me.

We're going to be talking about, AI
because everybody's talking about AI,

but particularly in the WordPress space.

So I'm going to, I'm going to
lay my cards on the table, Matt.

I'm a bit of a Luddite when it
comes to AI, I haven't really

explored it very much personally.

So more or less everything that
I have to say comes third hand,

but the tiny forays that I've made
into it have really frustrated me.

And I found more or less nothing works.

So I was at a meetup in London the
other day, and I, I was sitting at the

front and I said to the audience, I
tried four things the other day, on AI,

how many of them do you think worked?

And the response came back, all four.

And I was like, no, it was none, none
of the things that I tried worked,

absolutely nothing that I tried worked.

And so that tells me, A, that I don't
ask it the right things, because

I'm sure that the basic stuff that
I was asking is in the realms of AI.

but B, I haven't really played
with it enough to, to learn that

I was making those mistakes.

You, on the other hand, you've like taken
all your You've rolled up your trousers,

you've jumped in the lake, and it seems
that you're like a real adept now.

You're like pro, pro, super pro AI person.

Matt: Well, Nathan, what you've forgotten
is I sold cars for a lot of my life and

I'm pretty good at selling the story.

Nathan: Okay, so many, many,
many, many hours of banging

your head against the wall, eh?

Matt: I'm just a, what I would say just
a few paces ahead of you, you know,

on, on this, on this learning curve.

but yes, I, I recently, put
out a, an app called an app.

Let's call it what it is.

It's an RSS reader slash aggregator.

You can find it at pulsewp.

cc.

And, it was just a way for me to exercise
the idea of building something with AI.

And, largely solving a problem that
I have every day, which is, How do I

keep up with all the WordPress news?

you know, but my way, right?

You know, I have, I'm gonna forget the
name of the app that I have on my phone.

net something that I use as an RSS reader.

And it scoops up everything and
I have my newsletters and I have

obviously my slack channels.

and That keeps a, that keeps a pulse
on things for me and I was like,

there's some things I want to do.

Like I want to be able to
summarize these things quickly.

I want to have like little social
media messages automatically

made for me for every new
article so I can share these out.

And then I started building it.

And we can break down how I did
that, but that's how it was born.

It took Forty ish hours up until
this point to do what I did.

lots of failing.

lots of experimenting.

Nathan: the 40 hours include the failing?

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Nathan: Oh, that's not as bad.

I would have thought it would
have been a lot more than that.

But have it, but I know that you
just said a minute ago that you're

a good storyteller and sold cars and
you can put a spin on all of that.

It does seem though, from everything that
I've seen and the tenor of your language,

it does seem that this has captured you.

It's not like, you know, you wouldn't have
got to hour 40 if it was pure frustration.

I'm presuming that, you know,
at hour 2 and hour 6 and hour 10

or whatever, there were moments
of, whoa, look what I just did!

Matt: Yeah.

so here's the biggest thing.

For me and, and I hope, and I'm sure
you can relate to this too with your

stint with Drupal, way back in the
day, CCK and views and all this stuff.

those moments were very
powerful for me, right?

When I installed my first PHP
Nuke bulletin board, I was like,

Whoa, this is awesome, right?

Like I put a lamp, like before
I even knew the terminology,

I put a lamp stack together.

I installed PHP bulletin board.

I access it through a
browser on another computer.

Like, this is amazing, right?

Poking holes in the firewall and accessing
it, from your, you know, home server.

Like, this was amazing stuff.

And then you learn Drupal and, like,
the web and the technology and CCK and

Vues makes you feel like a PHP developer
and you're like, wow, this is awesome.

Fast forward, WordPress.

You have those same shining moments,
2008, 2009, where you're like, I'm

solving problems for clients, I'm
charging money, I'm building a business.

This AI stuff, it's like that same moment
in time where it's like, Wow, I just

built this app and it becomes this thing
that you just constantly want to do.

I will say, a little bit of, like,
I'm not a gambler, but it feels

like a little bit of gambling.

Cause every time you send it the
prompt, you're like, is it gonna get it?

Is it

Nathan: yeah, yeah,

Matt: get it?

And then it gets it, and you're like, yes!

Nathan: or at least it
looks like it got it,

Matt: Right, it looks like I got it.

So it feels like it's, it's fun right now.

and you know, that's, that's what
I'm, that's why I'm liking it.

But, let me just ask you this question.

With your failed attempts were
you doing those in like chat

GPT or like a vanilla sort?

I'll call a vanilla AI prompt

Nathan: I was, I was doing it in chat GPT.

So a client on the Mac for chat GPT and
I was asking it discreet questions, but

my discreet questions were so confined
and constrained that I presumed that

it was to do with getting a loop and
connecting two different custom post types

and, you know, comparing one against.

The other, it was the kind of thing
which any decent developer I think

would knock off with their eyes closed.

And so I thought that this
would be fairly possible.

No, it really wasn't.

It took many, many, many attempts.

I've subsequently learned from somebody
in the WordPress space, Tim Nash,

actually, that if you ask it and
you literally append at the end, can

you make the output, use WordPress
coding standards that immediately

will make it more or less better.

and I didn't know that.

But so everything that I got was
wrong, but I wasn't using any

kind of, environment or setup.

I was literally asking the pure, chat GPT.

And so maybe there's a
mistake that I made there.

Matt: Yeah, were you were you was your
intent to build it as like a proper plug

Nathan: Yes.

But first of all, I just wanted to, to
see what the output would be if the simple

things, and I've tried it at various
different points and it has succeeded.

But in those cases, it was
something so very, very minor.

but yeah, I haven't set up the, the
development environment and everybody,

everybody at the minute seems to be
talking about this thing called cursor.

I don't really even know what that
means, but, the principle being that

there's, there's an environment,
there's a setup, there's tools that you

can get that are better and superior
and advancing at a faster pace.

I wasn't using any of that.

Can I just ask you a question?

This is a weird question, but
I'm going to ask it anyway.

Do you feel in relationship
with this thing?

Do you feel like when you sit down
and ask it these questions, do you

feel disappointment in it when it
doesn't give you something back?

And do you feel like
happiness for it and for you?

And, you know, is there some
sort of, and I, that's weird.

I know I don't mean relationship,
but do you, are you drawn to it?

When you sit down and you
sort of like, right, some more

AI smashing, let's crack on.

This is exciting.

Matt: is, like back to that gambling
thing, or like, when I was younger,

like video games, like You know, when
I played, I don't know, whatever, your

favorite video game, you know, back in
the day, where you were like, you have

to clear the map, you have to hit all
the points, and like, get the trophy

or whatever, that's what it feels like.

I don't feel, I think what maybe you're
saying is like, do I feel like I'm, cause

I've heard this before, where people
sit down and it's like, oh, I talk to

ChatGBD all day, it's like my, it's like
my buddy, I don't feel that, but it's,

it's wanting that output, to make me feel
like, alright, this is gonna get done.

And I'll tell you why, because as
somebody who, so the app that I

built, PulseWP, it is React, right?

This is not WordPress, this is not
PHP, that's not, you know, it's largely

React and JavaScript, which I know.

0 percent

Nathan: Yeah.

Yeah.

We'll join the club.

Matt: I mean, I know a little bit
more now, which, you know, is great.

This is a great side effect of
playing with this stuff is you

do get to learn APIs and routes
and how react is structured and

pulling in components and libraries.

And you really start to learn
like the fundamentals, just like

when you were hacking away at a
WordPress site 15 years ago, you

were learning what this stuff does.

Now I'm doing the same
thing at a faster pace.

But because I know nothing, Okay.

I rely 100 percent on the agent
to build the thing, right?

So what that means is and why this
feels kind of like a video game

slash like a slot machine that you
pull the handle down on is because

it take it actually takes time.

So if you're asking it to build
something complex, you ask it and then

you wait and you stare at the screen
and you go and I'm just waiting for

it to finish and I've found myself.

Now, when I was really like deep
into building that app, launching a

prompt over here and one tab, sending
another prompt in another tab, asking

it to like, think ahead about the
next feature that I was working on.

So it's this thing where you're
just waiting for the output.

It's time consuming and it feels like.

I guess I'll call it work because
you're just waiting for this thing

to do the task and you have no say.

And if it fails, which it does,
very often you have to then

go back and say, do it again.

But now think about it this way.

And then wait for that
output to to, to finish.

And you have to wait to see if you're
getting the goal that you're after . And

it does feel like little levels in a video
game, like, can I beat this level today?

And like, that's the connection
that I have with it, because,

again, it's making me feel powerful.

People are seeing these features, I'm
shipping, air quotes, features, that

makes me feel like a proper developer.

Nathan: So I was going to ask that, that
was going to be another question and it

was, and I think you've just answered
it because when you said that you did

air quotes, your fingers went up and
you did air quotes, who, who built this?

Basically is my question.

Did you build it or did
something else build it?

Matt: Something else built it.

Nathan: And, and, and

Matt: had the idea.

Nathan: how like the, the people like me
with no coding capabilities whatsoever,

I would feel that compulsion as well,
I would fall over myself to, to kind

of explain, look, I didn't do this,
it was chat GPT, or whatever it may

be the latest thing, but it, but it's
curious how, well, you, you did do it.

But you did it with the
assistance of some other thing.

But it definitely couldn't
have been done without you.

Or I suppose without So it's
like a team effort almost.

It's kind of weird.

Matt: Yeah, yeah.

And you know, I would fast track the,
like to fast track the concept of.

You know, if you, if you open up your
favorite social media platform, if you

have one and you look at, you know, the,
the discourse around AI right now, it's

either this thing is replacing all of us,
or this thing is replacing none of us.

you know, like everything else
in my life anyway, I kind of see

it somewhere in the middle and.

You know,

Nathan: us.

Ha ha ha ha

Matt: of us.

See you later.

One of, one out of two of us on this

Nathan: Either that or
half, half literally of us.

One half of me and one half of you.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Matt: and, you know, these,
these tools are great.

They do fast track it, but you, I, I
think what it'll, it'll do is eventually,

you know, will we need an app store?

Right.

You know, when you look at it from,
I guess maybe either a dystopian

point of view is like, will you need
an app store if you can just go on

your iPhone, which is now somehow
powered by Apple intelligence?

Cause the, the, the new colorful rainbow
ring around my phone turns on instead

of like the little Siri circle anymore.

And will I just turn to my iPhone and
say, give me an RSS app that follows

just the WordPress news and it makes.

Basically, what I made with Pulse
and just installs it on my phone.

And I pay Apple, like, nine
bucks a month for Apple

Intelligence to maintain that app.

What does that do to the landscape?

But then also, like, as a developer,
What does it do for humanity, right?

You know, like, do the
developers go away and the AI?

So, there's all of these thoughts
that are going through my mind

as I'm building this stuff.

I think it'll get better, but I
don't think it's replacing all of

Nathan: I think it's interesting because I
think there's always, I really don't know.

I can't distill it, but I have an equal
amount of trepidation as I do excitement.

And so the rainbows are very, very
close to the dark black clouds.

and the bit of me, which worries is that
the industry that we're in is full of

very, very nice people who have spent
an age getting good at, let's say,

plug in development or what have you.

And it does seem to me
that at the rate that.

The development of the AI is
moving that a lot of that might

be possible with a voice command.

Like, obviously if you build something
complex, like a complex, I don't know,

an LMS or something, I'm sure that's
probably out of reach at the moment.

You'd have to have all the different
parts, but if you've got a plugin,

which is very successful in just
doing one or two simple things,

that concerns me a little bit.

So that's a bit of a dark cloud.

However.

The, the sort of rainbow side of that
is, well, we're here to democratize

publishing and if anybody can speak
into their phone and achieve the thing

that they've asked, that's fabulous.

And, and the boundaries just
get pushed further of what's

possible, which is great.

Here's the other weird thing, which
never really gets into my head when

I'm thinking about it is, I don't
know if it's sustainable, in terms

of, I don't know if the economic
model is keeping these LLMs going.

is something that can be sustained.

It seems like there are some dark clouds
gathering there, where the amount of

energy that's being used and the amount
of dollars being spent just to is kind

of being kept to get kept alive on a
venture capital venture capital promise

that something around the corner is going
to flip the economic argument and all of

a sudden we're going to start shelling
out great amounts of cash for, for this.

Matt: I wrote about this, on, my resume
site, Crafted by Matt, and it is, One

of the things I think that's going
to hold this whole industry back are

these industry leaders themselves.

Because how many times have we seen
and heard this story before, right?

You must jump on this bandwagon.

This is going to change everything.

This is the technology of the future.

And everything looked like
AI every time that thing was

happening, whatever that was.

NFTs, cryptocurrency, like
all these different things.

The internet, books are going to go away.

Self driving cars, you know, cell phone,
like all of these technology points

have always said that kind of thing and
it's a little true but then it's like

you scale back 60 percent of that and
then you scale out the other 40 percent

over two decades because that's how
long it takes for people to catch up.

Like people still don't
have websites, right?

Like we thought that was going to be
done and all over with 20 years ago.

so I think the biggest thing holding
these, these That will hold us

back, you know, I'll say it is
like the corporate greed, right?

We need to be the biggest, the best.

We need all of it and we need
trillions of dollars to do it, right?

Oh, how much are you making?

Zero.

In fact, we're losing trillions
of dollars while we're asking

you for more trillions of

Nathan: and we're pumping a load of
carbon into the atmosphere and, you

know, all of that kind of stuff.

The interesting thing here though,
let, let's, let's just use, because

I said it, self driving cars.

The, what you get, if that
technology comes to fruition, you

get self driving cars, you get
cars that can drive themselves.

However, if the AI, if the AGI,
the artificial general intelligence

comes about, then you basically
solve more or less everything.

I mean, you invent a load
of other problems, but there

isn't just like one solution.

It's like you just give a
computer or a device or something.

can you invent me a new game that nobody's
ever played before that'd be really

interesting for like under five year olds?

yeah, sure.

Try this one.

Oh, yeah, that's really good.

or do you fancy just getting
rid of cancer for me?

Yeah, all right, that's fine.

You know, so the promise, the promise
here that they, again, the rainbows

and the unicorns and all that is
so vast that I think this one maybe

differs slightly and it wouldn't
surprise me if the spending cycle

keeps going for a little while longer,
but I can't see it going on forever.

That promise of AGI seems
to be no closer today.

Then it was two years ago, but the
output of the LLMs is to my mind.

Anyway, it makes you think that there's
intelligence there, but it's not really.

Matt: There is, I don't know
if they're testing fire alarms

in my building right now.

Nathan: Yeah, there was
something, I can hear something,

but it's okay, keep going, I

Matt: are going wrong.

the, You're wearing a pair of glasses.

I'm going to take you down one of my,
crazy conspiracy theories, with AI.

You're wearing a pair of
glasses, and I wrote about this.

I said, well, look, at some point, the
hardware, the technology, the software

is going to get so optimized that you'll
have an LLM on your pair of glasses.

You'll walk into a car dealership
one day, if you're still buying

cars, and the salesperson is going
to look at you and go, The car is

35, 000 and that's my best price.

Your glasses will analyze that
and prompt you in your lens to

say, That's not the best price.

And here's how you should reply, right?

And it, what it will move to is like
this zero sum game for a world where,

you know, lack of knowledge, lack
of education, lack of information.

Allowed people to capitalize off
of swaths of, of humans, right?

I'm not saying it's a bad
thing, but what it is, is it's

gonna empower people, I hope.

To look at that sales deal,
buying a house, looking at a legal

contract, talking to your doctor,
and feeding you instant information

that betters your situation.

So that, that competing negotiation or
that lawyer who's like, sign the contract,

it's the best thing for you, and you
look at the contract and your glasses

say, this is not the best thing for me,
it looks like I get screwed in year two!

Like, how does that happen?

You know, and it's going to allow
people, hopefully, to have that slight

advantage that they didn't have before.

And, you know, the dystopian side,
is going to be, well, if you don't

have the best and the fastest
LLM in your glasses, you lose.

And by the way, the best and
the fastest LLM in your glasses,

it costs 5, 000 a month.

Nathan: I think the dystopian
runs really parallel to the, like

the, the rainbows and unicorns.

I think the two things, it's so
difficult for me to differentiate

the two at the moment.

A lot of the positive seems like
the negative and vice versa.

One thing that is interesting
though is that I came to the same

intuition, and I don't know if you
meant glasses as a As that's where

you think the technology will land.

But that is where I'm coming down now.

I really do think we, it will be
in glasses and I know we had that

Google glass debacle a few years ago
where the, like, the promise was so

great and the delivery was so small.

I think that was held back by the, the
kind of technology available at the time.

But it does seem like the,
the thing on your head.

That nobody really cares about, you know,
it doesn't have to have forward facing

cameras, but it's got a screen and you
can push, push things onto that screen.

I think augmented reality will become
hot again once the glasses come, but I

think the AI mixing in with the glasses
is the perfect, the perfect vehicle.

You know, imagine, imagine the things
that you could do, if the, if instead

of the computer and the screen, if
it was just the pair of glasses that

you take on and, and put off again.

I think that is the, that

Matt: Yeah, we're, and we're
not that far away, right?

We all have phones in our pockets, right?

So we can achieve that.

let's not scare off the listener too much.

Let's talk about the tools, right?

How did I achieve some of this stuff?

And let's talk about maybe some
of the points where, where, you

were having some challenges.

What did your workflow look like?

You were testing it out in ChatGPT
and just like copy and pasting

into like a snippet plugin tool

Nathan: I mean, basically something
like that or into a sort of functions.

php file.

And like I said, I was trying to
do something really simple, but my

goal was just to see if I could get
things done in under like two minutes.

In other words, how would a,
how would an inexperienced

WordPress user manage with this?

And the reason I said it's in.

The whole thing collapsed is
because for an inexperienced

WordPress user, it was an endgame.

It was like, this should work,
but no, it's destroyed my site.

And that's what it did.

It took the site to the white
screen of death kind of thing.

And I got the email notification.

So I thought, okay, that's interesting.

If I was a novice.

Coming into the WordPress space, it
would, it would ruin my expectations

of what WordPress could do.

But, but let's flip that round again and
ask you why, why this particular topic?

Why PulseWP?

I'll just give the URL again.

PulseWP.

cc.

I mean, you, you said you were sort of
scratching your own itch, but tell us why

Matt: Yeah, yeah, so I mean, I, yeah,
I wanted a way to feed, yeah, that news

and information for WordPress, to the
way that I need to consume it, which is

You know, cut, like, watch everything,
summarize it, so that I can quickly scan

it, and then go into the full article
or, you know, whatever it might be that,

that I'm watching for, and then quickly
generate social media because I, social

media, posts because I also share other
people's content, so I wanted a tool that

quickly allowed me to Watch all the stuff.

Summarize it so I can quickly
jump into the bullet points

that I need to know about.

And then, help me share it on social
media, because it's important to me.

like you, I started, I had pneumonia.

So, maybe not like you,
but I had pneumonia.

A few months after you
and I met in Portland.

And I was just laying on the
couch, couldn't really do anything.

And I was like, let me get
into this AI coding thing.

And I started to hit
the limits of, Claude.

At the time, that's what I was using.

And it would just tell me like,
Hey, you're trying to build this

piece of software or whatever.

Come back tomorrow.

literally it would say, come

Nathan: Oh,

Matt: tomorrow because you've
ran, you've run out of tokens.

And I'm like, like, and I go back to like
that gamification, that gambling thing.

Like, wait a minute, I'm like
halfway through this idea.

I need to continue to build it.

And that's what, and then I
started, what I started doing is.

I would have half the idea with ChatGPT
and use the credits over there, and

then bring, and I would say, Hey, take
this little idea of this little feature,

write the code for it, but then give me
a prompt that explains how to build that

code, because I wanted Claude to build
it, so then I would, I would do a lot

of ideation on ChatGPT to save credits,
and then make it write me a prompt.

And then I would paste that
into, into Claude and that helped

optimize the stack a little bit.

Right.

And eventually, and we can get
into this, eventually I started

to uncover the cursor, app, bolt.

new, which is a fantastic, AI app.

And then what I eventually built.

PulseWPON is an app called Repl.

it, which I like to say is like
the Elementor of AI coding.

Like, think about everything
encompassed that you need.

Because Pulse is, well, it's JavaScript.

It's, you know, the React app framework.

It's a database.

It's a user authentication system.

it is the hosting provider.

it does a lot.

And once you start getting into
this space, you realize, Oh, it's

not just the website that you
need or that front end component.

You need the database, you
need user authentication.

User authentication is huge.

and I should say that all of
this built me a better, a better

recognition for WordPress, right?

Like, I look at WordPress now and you
might go, Oh, that thing's like 20

years old, it's old and monolithic.

Yeah, but it's done.

Right?

It's done.

I can pick this up and put it on a website
and thousands of humans care for it.

Versus me.

On my couch and chat GPT and it's
just me and him building this thing

and nobody else is caring for it.

Nobody else is giving me ideas.

It's a stark difference from building
code by yourself without any knowledge

versus you look at WordPress now and
you go, wow, 20 years and thousands

of people have touched this.

And this is why it's

Nathan: can I ask you a question?

So you mentioned a variety of tools there.

So you chatGPT, Claude,
you mentioned, Repl.

it and you mentioned Bolt.

What, what, so I think it's fair to

Matt: How did I make that path?

Nathan: And also what is the path?

What, why go to Bolt?

What does Bolt do that's
different from Repl.

it and what does Repl.

it do that's different from chatGPT?

So yeah, talk us through the journey.

Matt: Yeah, I'm gonna, put a video
together on this as well, comparing

the, the two, platforms, but
here's my, my take on it, right?

I think you can, if you're somebody
who's a developer and you're very,

and you're, you even consider
yourself, I'm halfway there.

I think I'm a decent developer.

Even if you consider yourself, I'm
not the best, but I'm just a beginner.

I think a great way to leverage AI
now is to use something like cursor.

Like if code looking at
code doesn't scare you.

I would say use Cursor, because it's,
it's a coding app, it's a fork of VS

Code, which is a, an app to help you code.

and it has all the things you need
to accelerate your coding abilities.

If you're somebody like me
There's these two other apps,

and I'm sure there's others.

These are just the two that I've explored.

Bolt and Repl.

it.

And you go to bolt.

new is the website for the AI stuff.

And I really haven't even had the
time to explore these guys too deep.

Guys and gals, I should say.

But they actually have an
open source component of Bolt,

which you can run locally.

I haven't even touched that yet, but
that's just like In my mind, like,

this is kind of why I like these,
this team, because they have that,

and I do want to explore it more.

But bold.

new, you just go to the, you go to
the site, you throw it the idea,

and it builds it beautifully.

Nathan: okay, so wait, wait,
hang on, wait, wait, wait.

You say you throw out the idea,
like, how complex do you think

you could actually make that idea?

Matt: And this is where the things
kind of fall, fall down a little bit.

So when I started, once I got off of,
using vanilla, Claude to build my idea,

I went to cursor because I heard that was
a thing and what cursor gave me was vs

code, which I've never touched in my life.

No idea.

I mean, the last time I use a code
editor was notepad plus plus when

I was running my wordpress agency,
you know, going back to 2006.

That was the last time I've looked at
code like this and it was very powerful,

but it wasn't guiding me at all like it.

You have to be a developer to use it.

And if I was a developer,
Cursor looks amazing.

Because you already know the code and
it's just going to accelerate that.

And I was Fumbling around with it.

I was, you know, I was at the
time, when I first started, I was

like, give myself a new challenge.

Learn the CloudFlare
infrastructure hosting, right?

Like I heard CloudFlare is better
than AWS for some of this stuff.

I used to sell managed WordPress sites
for Pagely and we used AWS so I didn't

know my way around AWS, but I was
like, let me try this CloudFlare thing.

So I was trying to like pipe all
these things together, run CloudFlare.

Pages, Cloudflare functions,
Cloudflare databases, and I'm trying

to tie all this stuff in together.

Impossible.

Nathan: Ha ha

Matt: And then I found Bolt by
just hunting around on YouTube

and Reddit and stuff like that.

And Bolt will do really good
at straightforward requests.

Like you can ask it to make a user
login system, but at the time when

I started this, it would create it.

But it would be just like a form, right?

There was no security logic behind it.

It would show you a login page.

You could log in, but you could.

There was no like WordPress
authentication, like it wasn't

checking your password, was that
strong enough, is there a reset, you

know, I need to change my password,
didn't have any of that function.

what it did integrate with at the time
was a hosting company, called Netlify.

Those of you, those of you
listening probably know about that.

So what you could do, is
ask Bolt, build my app.

And then you could click deploy and
send it to Netlify, and it would

host the static pages that you built.

And it worked, but there was no database.

Which then led me down the
path of, I need to figure out

how to connect up a database.

And I found another
platform called Supabase, S

Nathan: Oh, that rings a bell.

Yeah.

Matt: yeah.

And it is a hosted database platform,
And it does a ton of things besides just

databases, does file storage, but it
also does user authentication, because

that's a huge thing, user authentication.

Another thing we take advantage of,
or take advantage for in WordPress

is the whole, like, stack of user
authentication is already there.

So Supabase allows you to do that.

So I started stringing things
together, and I'm debugging, like,

build scripts and deployments, with
Bolt and Netlify and now Superbase.

And then I had to learn to tie
in GitHub to all of this stuff so

that I could version control it.

It was very, very difficult
to like keep it all going.

And eventually you hit this limit of Bolt.

Where it's just like, it's not working.

And here's a pro tip, for any of these
AI platforms, If it can't get it, in

three or four tries, It's not gonna get

Nathan: just give up.

Matt: Just give up, on
like that feature set.

So what that led me to do was, I would,
I would build, I would ask all these

complex things, Do this, do this, do
this, do this, all in one big prompt.

Build it for me, make it do this,
and then move this button over

there, and it would just crumble.

Nathan: Right.

Right.

Matt: So, I had to learn, and then I would
delete the whole app, and start again.

So then I would learn to take it slower.

Here's the goal at the start, build it
out, and then I knew the features in my

head, but I wasn't telling Bolt to do it.

And I would do it step by step.

Now build this feature.

Let's test that feature.

Okay, great, that worked.

Let's build this feature.

Let's test it.

Okay, do the work.

All of the things you normally do.

In like real development.

because a real developer isn't taking
all those ideas and slamming it all out

into his or her code editor right there.

It's all done methodically.

So I had to do that.

And I'll fast track it here.

Bolt now has a super base integration,

Nathan: Oh, neat.

Okay.

Matt: So now it'll create
the database for you.

You can host it on Netlify.

You'll still have to connect
it up to GitHub, to do like

deployments and stuff like that.

but it works.

And then I found Repl.

it.

And you can think, like I said
before, you can think of Repl.

it as like Elementor.

It's all in one.

So it has all the database, the
hosting, the user authentication.

It's all built in.

And you're not having to hunt around and
go, okay, now I need to set up Netlify to

look over here at GitHub and Superbase.

It has to know about Superbase.

It just has all of its database
and hosting all built into

Nathan: So is, is replet, replet,
is that your current Nirvana thing

that that's where you're at at the

Matt: That's what PulseWP.

That's what PulseWP is built on,
but what I've found is what I will

do, cause you're still faced with
the same, no matter what, if you're,

if you're running VanillaChatGPT,
your own account, if you're running

Bolt, or you're running Repl.

it, you're still faced with the same,
issue, which is, conversations get really

complex, like, as you extend it and keep
working it, and it just starts to fail

and give you a bunch of slop, or, it
gets costly, and you run out of tokens.

Right?

So you, you start to, Replate
has a different billing system,

but we can talk about that later.

But, you, it still costs you money.

And you still run out of that.

So if you're not, If you're, you're not,
strategic about how you're building your

app, then it can start to cost you money.

And, or run out of credits altogether.

but my favorite way of doing
this is ideate in a vanilla, chat

GPT, then I bring it to Bolt, and
I say Hey, build me this idea.

And I just let it, what Bolt
is really good at is that MVP.

Like, what does it look like?

Do I like the buttons over here?

Do I like this feature function?

And then if I'm real serious about it, I
will ask Bolt to, once I get it to a kind

of working level, I'll say, Hey Bolt,
everything, you know, about this app.

Can you make me a, prompt that I'm
going to place into another AI system?

Feels a little bit like cheating.

but, but it's like, hey, you did a really
good job over here, but you know what?

I'm not going to stick with you,
but tell me everything you can do.

And I'm going to bring it over into Repl.

it and then I'll start to build in a

Nathan: It's kind of like when you go
into a store and look at an item and then

in the store, buy it from Amazon on your

Matt: Correct.

That's a hundred percent.

That's a hundred percent.

but for whatever reason, and this is
stuff that I still need to explore.

Bolt does a fantastic job with
UI and the design and Repl.

it is just Terrible.

Like, like Pulse is not a very
good looking website to look at.

It does the job.

It's very stark black and white,
you know, and even when I say add

more color or do more like Repl.

It doesn't, it doesn't do any of
that creative stuff, but Bolt does

a really, really good job of it.

And their apps look a
way, look way better.

And for whatever reason, maybe
their LLMs are just trained better.

Like when you say improve design.

Bolt does a really good job of
improving design, whereas Repl.

it just looks at you.

Yeah, it's

Nathan: in the LLM, if you're using the
same language, but it, you know, your ex,

well, or, or your expectations are sort
of differently met, you know, you prefer

the way that looks, but, but, but, okay.

So given all of this in this
journey and the fact that the

three years ago, if I suggested.

No, maybe three years.

Yeah, three, let's go three years.

If I said any of this to you, your,
your three years ago, self would

say my, my future self is lying.

This cannot be done.

That will never be possible.

And yet here we are, you,
you've achieved something.

You've built a, you've built
an app that there's no way

that you could have pulled off.

And so the technology has gone
from that's a lie that cannot

be done to I've now done it.

So that's three years.

If we, like three years from now, surely
that's going to be a bit exponential.

Let's assume that the, the venture
capitalists don't run out of money

and they're still very excited and
all of that, then surely this is

just going to get easier and easier.

Your expectations will go up.

Your demands of the prompts will go up.

You, the output will
get better and better.

God, it's, it sounds like utopia.

Coding utopia.

Matt: Three years ago, if you would
have said that to me, I would have

called the cops on you a year ago.

I would have said, I don't think this.

Yeah, not me.

But now it's just like, okay, kind of me.

And this is, you know, for all
of the naysayers out there.

Like, I think the reality is that
the missing links right now are

speed because this stuff takes time.

Like, it's not just time of like testing,
but if you're somebody like me asking it

to build robust apps, You literally have
to wait for the code to finish, right?

Like this is a waiting game.

So I'm totally dead serious.

Like when you start getting into
something that's, you know, a little

bit more robust, I'll, I'll send the
prompt and then switch to tabs and

like go back to work and let it finish.

And then if you have to, if it, if
you go back to that tab and it's still

not working, You gotta run it again.

You know, so it's like,
okay, let me go back to work.

You know, did you finish over here?

You know, but if you're
somebody who's a developer, you

know what you have to solve.

I don't.

So I just have to constantly
keep prompting this thing.

But yeah, three years from now what'll
happen, and I think we're starting

to see it now, are these agents.

Which are, for lack of a better
word, these little robots that are

supposed to be actively or passively
working on this stuff for you.

And that's the next sort of shoe to drop
where I can build the app and then tell

the agent, Hey, every day, just make sure
I don't have any security flaws in pulse.

Or if there's an update to react,
or JavaScript, make sure you update

it to the latest packages for me.

And you know what?

Every day, think of a new idea.

And send it to me, message me,
and see if I like that idea.

And if I like it, we'll add it to Pulse.

Repl.

it kind of does that.

As you move along with Repl.

it, it'll prompt you and say, Hey,
did, do you like, okay, did that work?

The thing that you just
asked me to do, does it work?

If so, I've got these three ideas
that I think we can do next.

And you're just looking
at it going, oh my god.

Like this thing is thinking ahead.

you know,

Nathan: yeah.

The, the, the, the exchange of finances,
it's, it's, it's cogs are ticking there.

It's thinking, how can I get you
to spend more tokens tomorrow?

Matt: Correct.

Nathan: but, but it's interesting
because I foresee a future then.

But, and I didn't know this until we had
this conversation, but it feels to me.

That we're going to have a future in
which certain AIs are going to meet

the needs of a certain niche of people.

So in the example that you gave,
come to, I think you said, Bolt,

if you want it to look nice.

So we're the, we're the nice looking
AI, you know, we'll, we'll give

you a UI that looks beautiful.

Oh, there might be a WordPress.

version or a Drupal version or a
whatever, you know, we're really

good at putting web pages together.

Or we're really good.

If you're, if you're into travel, we've
got the database of all the travel

agents and flights and blah, blah, blah.

All of that.

Maybe that's the way it's going to go.

and you'll go to a different
AI for a different thing.

And then, you know, the And then
the sun will never stop shining.

And we'll all be incredibly
happy forever and ever after.

And, and of course we'll never ever,
none of us will ever need to work again.

Matt: Yeah.

So, so how do you think this all
competes or how does WordPress

compete with this in your eyes?

Like I look at it as we're going
to, we could see 10, 15 percent

of that market share drop.

Where people go, you know,
I'm just gonna build it.

I'm just gonna build it over here
and repl it, forget WordPress.

How do you see WordPress
sustaining through

Nathan: I think my gut reaction at
the moment is that it's going to be

a really tough time for developers.

I think people are going to
experiment more and more with AI.

And given that the WordPress
code base is completely visible

to all AI, it can consume it.

So I'm imagining a scenario where
a lot of simple tasks that might

have been sent to your developer.

You know, now you'll just ask
you a 16 year old son, have you

got, you know, this AI stuff?

I've got a website and I've
got this problem with it.

Can you just have a look at this for me?

Just try it out on your AI, because
you know, you're doing computers

at school, that kind of thing.

I think it's going to potentially eat in.

To that market, but equally, maybe
the expectations will go higher.

So we'll all expect more from
our WordPress website because

the AI agents are helping us.

So it's, it's a time of change for sure.

And I think it probably is a time
to, to reevaluate what you're doing.

I was speaking to somebody yesterday,
very intelligent person who basically

was saying, and they're in the
WordPress space, so it's really, you

know, on message, they were saying
that really it's time to get into AI.

If you don't start using it now, there
will be people a year from now who

are so good at it that they've kind
of made themselves like that top tier

and they will be the elite developers.

and even though they might not have
a development background, if they

do have a development background,
they'll be, you know, elite plus.

so I think, I think it is
definitely a, a time of change.

yeah.

Matt: really cool thing, It's not really
an aside, but it's sort of an aside.

Like when you're thinking use case,
and even thinking outside of our little

tech bubble, my, so another great thing
about Bolt is it is pretty quick, and

like I said, the UI is really nice.

And what I found it to be really fun,
with kids, is doing homework, right?

With my kids, right?

So my, first grade son, my middle son,
you know, they come home, they have

their homework, there's whatever 12 words
that they're working on, you know, for

the week or whatever the homework is.

And, you know, it's just, we're
still writing on paper, right?

Like the homework comes home, we're
still using a pencil or a crayon, right?

To do this stuff.

So, you know, trying to get him in
the, in a different mindset to learn

these words, I was like, Hey man,
how about we build a little game?

And if you can guess the right
words, we'll have a dinosaur pop

up with a little sound effect.

And he was like, yeah, let's build it.

So I just.

Literally, take a picture, I'm grabbing
my phone, take a picture of his homework,

and I say, you know, and I paste it
into, or I upload it to Bolt, and I

say, grab these 12 words, I mean, I
was so lazy, Nathan, I didn't even

write the words, I took a picture.

And I said, look at these words and make
me a game, a guessing game, for, my,

six year old son to, guess these words.

If he gets it right, it
makes a little ding sound.

If he gets it wrong, it
makes a little wrong sound.

and he has to guess the missing letter.

And if he gets whatever I said, 80
percent of it right, we'll have.

confetti and a dinosaur
show up at the end, right?

Just a little fun game
for him to play with.

And it built it in, whatever, two minutes.

And in two minutes, I had a
little video game for him to play.

And then we added to it.

So I said, okay, this video game is great.

Let's make a flash cards.

And.

It'll show the word for one second,
and then go away, and then you'll have

four words that are random, and the
right word that my son has to pick from.

A, B, C, or D.

And then it built that, and
we added to the video game.

A little menu system at the beginning, and
he could pick which game we could play.

And then I started thinking to myself,
like, Oh, I could extend this, like, you

know, I could make this a weekly thing,
I could have a login, a top score chart,

I could do this with all of his brothers,
because we've got two other boys, and I

was just like, my mind is just like racing
with the, like the good opportunities.

Nathan: what?

It's really interesting.

Of everything that we've talked
about over the last 50 minutes or

so, the most profound bit is that

Matt: hmm,

Nathan: okay.

That was impossibly complicated
until really recently.

But also, you've, there is no barrier
to entry for a child to do that.

So, a game that would have been the
purview of a fairly seasoned developer,

and that card game that you've just
described, I imagine would have

consumed a decent amount of a day.

And you can imagine the cost of the
equipment required, and the cost

of the, you know, the amount of
time spent learning all of that.

And now, You can have a child with a
phone and a camera and a microphone

and they can build something like that.

And the reason it's profound is, is
not so much that it's possible, it's

that it's in the hand of a generation
of people who are going to grow up.

And that will be normal.

And the idea that you would do anything
other than ask an AI to assist you

through this problem will be Like
crazy, you know, why wouldn't I do that?

You know in the same way that I
now rely on things that my parents

It's just, it's beyond them.

They've reached that point where
certain technologies can't be used.

Like the mobile phone is a real
enigma to them, but for me,

it's just so straightforward.

And that's going to be the case, you know,
old curmudgeons like me, I don't have

that relationship with it and I probably
never will, but the generation coming

up, if they can just get a handy thing
for every problem that arises in life.

You know, whatever it is, I don't
know, build me an, I don't know,

I've just come out of a tube
station in an unfamiliar city.

Can you, can you design me an app just
to take me on the most interesting

route possible around this city,
take in some sights, and then give

me a description of what I should be
eating and how many calories it's got

in it, and then send me to a decent
hotel at the end, and whilst you're

at it, will you just book it for me?

You know, I imagine all of
that's possible with Google Maps,

actually, now that I say it.

But the point being, you can just speak.

The interface is your voice.

And that's remarkable.

Matt: There, I want to add in a couple
other tools here, that I've, I've

used and, and I think, another great
way that instead of us looking at it

like, Oh my God, WordPress is doomed.

I think there's, I think there's some
extensions that, that AI can help us with.

So another tool that I use, especially
with my, my children, That is this tool

called WhisperFlow, I don't know if
you've heard of it, it's called W I, it's

Whisper, W I S P R, Flow, WhisperFlow,
and it's, it, it, you turn it on, I just

turned it on, there's a little button you
click and you just speak, and it takes

your words, and puts it into text, it's
very simple, but the, the key factor

of Whisper, and I'm sure there's other
tools that do this, this is the one

that I found, is it will clean up Your
garbage vocabulary and all your filler

words just like we do with Descript so
if I turn it on and I go into bolt or my

at my my chat GPT I Can just talk to it
and be like hey, so here's what I want

to build I want to build this app that
does like a video game for my seven year

old to learn I can just talk ums and ahs
and spacing and pauses and then it just

cleans it up and condenses it into the
acute information that is needed Right?

So it doesn't have all the ums and
the ahs, and then you just paste that

into the prompt and you hit enter.

And then it just takes your idea.

So I was letting my son, my
son do that, you know, and

it's just because he's seven.

So he's just talking and he's,
well, dad, should I do this?

And yep, tell it what you want.

And then it just cleans it up into
like bullet point text, all like

the two minutes of him just like
kind of like babbling and rambling.

And it just creates a prompt
for them that's accurate.

And then we just hit
enter and it builds it.

and I think, you know, tools
like that, just like you said,

these are going to be so common.

Especially for, you know, for
our kids as they grow up to

like do this kind of thing.

But here's the extension I
think that's super valuable.

that you can do with, that you WordPress.

Or any system really, but think about
databases of important information, tax

information, real estate information, land
Plots, forgetting the word for it right

now You know stuff that's impactful in
your local community Information that's

hard to get out from like just like your
local government like who has access

to what water filtration all this stuff
That's like stuck in millions of databases

around the world I'm building something
now with Gravity Forms, API, REST API.

So, Gravity Forms has REST API.

If you're using Gravity Forms
to store information on your

site, I can turn to Bolt and say,
build me an app that analyzes the

data in this Gravity Forms form.

Here's the API keys.

Go build me a table of that, that data.

And by the way, analyze it with ChatGPT.

And give me whatever, you know,
whatever you think is the, the valuable

information, draw a graph, do all this
stuff, hit enter, boom, like it accesses

data and WordPress is a great data store.

Like that's my future vision of WordPress.

When Matt many years ago said operating
system of the web, I can see WordPress as

like a future, just database of content,
open, accessible, build it your way.

And then these AI tools can then go
in and get this data and help us build

robust solutions for whatever it is

Nathan: Gosh, it sounds like,
okay, so I can't, can't allow

us to finish on a positive note.

Matt: You're english

Nathan: that's right, we have
to bring it down a little bit.

And, so I, I do wonder, you know, what
is going to be our capacity to cope

with boredom in the future and to, you
know, just to cope with not being able

to achieve something like that, you
know, if we're out of, if we're out of

contact with our AI, if we go on holiday
and the, I don't know, the, the internet

breaks where we're living, you just have
this like, but wait, no, I can't cope.

I don't have AI plugged in to my head
kind of thing that, that, that, that.

Bit of life does worry me.

I do, I do see that, you know,
there's something quite nice about

being disconnected and the more
that we connect, the more that we

require to be connected and so on.

So I do think there are some
guardrails that we need to build in.

and I don't know how busy we want
our heads to be in the future.

I mean, it all sounds
so great, doesn't it?

All this amazing stuff that you can
do and access to all this information

all the time and the ability to
wrangle it and manipulate it.

Don't get me wrong.

It really, really sounds amazing.

But, maybe, maybe at this point I will
go and sit on my desert island and.

smash coconuts and drink the,
drink the liquid that comes

out of them and that'll be me.

Matt: Yeah, well, my lap.

My last point is, like you said
before, it have to get stuck in

to AI and start learning it now.

And I think that's all that I
think that's all that means is

to learn it and understand it.

Like, I don't think anyone needs
to be a superhero with AI or you

have to go out and build apps.

But understand the fundamentals are like
when you used to crack open WordPress,

you looked at HTML, CSS and PHP.

And you just looked at it,
and you're like, I kind of get

what this does, this functions.

php file.

Like, I think that's the same mindset
you have to take with this, like,

understand Vanilla, ChatGPT, and Claude.

Then understand, like, what
these other, like, Repl.

it and Bolt environments do, and what the
differences are, how to connect them up.

You don't have to be building
something super robust, and I

think even that is a step ahead for
yourself, you know, in a couple of

Nathan: Yeah.

Well, we'll see.

that was a fascinating conversation, Matt.

I really enjoyed that.

Thank you.

We'll come back in a couple of years time
or we'll see if, you know, see if there's,

there's anything left of humanity.

Matt: I'm either gonna be in Hollywood
or like connected up to 16 machines.

I don't know.

Nathan: Well, good luck.

Good luck in the year 2025.

Thanks, Matt.

Matt: Yes.

Thank you, Nathan.